Wow. So many posts in one thread in one day. Took me more than a quarter of an hour to read them all.

Fellas, lets try to reduce the acrimony a little eh? Lets all try to take a step back and a deep breath before we reply to posts that we take personally. And yes, I accept that I may sound like a hypocrite saying that because yes, in the past I have over-reacted to posts that were not necessarily aimed at me. Do as I say not as I do :D

For the record:

1) I regard teaching as being one of the most important careers in western societies. I have nothing but respect and admiration for good teachers. I think public school systems in every western society could probably do with more funding.

2) I always have some level of respect for those who have served or are serving as commissioned officers. I can't speak for other militaries but you don't get to be an officer in a Commonwealth military service if you are an idiot. I got into a long and interesting conversation recently with my fiance's great uncle and he mentioned that he had been a senior commissioned officer in the Australian Army. At first I thought he had retired as a lt colonel or colonel, then on further questioning I discovered he had been a brigadier general! A really interesting chap he is, very, very intelligent.

3) I was following the development (on the 93 Games forum) of T:2013 before it was published and I bought a hard copy at the first opportunity once my local gaming store shipped copies in. I love the system (char gen and combat especially) but didn't like the back story. I still regard it as an amazing body of work however and admire and respect the effort and talent that went into it.

4) It is an unfortunate fact (in my opinion) that I have learned to keep many of my opinions to myself on this forum as a direct result of what I consider to have been extreme over-reactions to my and others' posts in the past. I think it is natural for people to defend their own countries from perceived criticism. I think that as a result of the great majority of members of this forum being Americans, non-Americans who dare to make statements even remotely derogatory about the USA on this forum are risking long and loud reprisal posts. I think many of us (myself included) sometimes have a hard time in stepping back and reading critical posts objectively.

5) We are all gamers, and even more pertinently we are all fans of Twilight:2000 in its various iterations. Maybe we should spend more time focusing on the things we have in common than the things we do not?

I'm not seeking to dispute what you've said but I do wish to add that there are always exceptions to the rules.
I had a Platoon Leader at one time who insisted that we dig Section/Squad trenches, no problem with that except he wanted two people at the same time to do it to speed things up. Even that wouldn't have been so bad but it was two people with pickaxes in the dark of night.
One of the Section Leaders performed an act to voice his supreme displeasure at said officers lack of common sense - true it was only on an exercise and even though the enemy were only firing blanks but it's the only time I've witnessed an officer being saluted under tactical conditions in the field.

I like the more detailed chargen of MongTrav over Classic, more things you can weave into a background.

Hard-core Survival is an option, but the standard rule is that you are forced out of the career, possibly with an injury.

Mercenary does have more career options (Wet Navy, Air Force, training cadre, etc.), and mass-combat rules and mercenary ticket generation. There are more weapons & gear (esp. heavy ordnance), of course.

No, I'm at the same spot myself.

I'm starting up a new campaign myself and basically I only have the situation around the party.

The players don't even need to know that...they just need to have an awareness of an even smaller world - roughly 500m around them (and yes, some back story).

All that aside, that's me.

A lot of people seem to have a lot of fun making the world and I have fun reading it.

It's just not for me though.

i'll buy it as long as the back story is good and they don't kill off 90% of the world like in 2013k. 2013k sucked so bad i wish i had my money back for it.

Many, many people don't like the backstory in T:2013. What do you think of the Reflex system? I really like it.

I'm curious. Exactly what casualty rate would you consider acceptable for a modern WWIII scenario? FYI, GDW's figures in the 2.0 timeline were 52% in the United States and 45% in Canada, and those numbers were exclusive to primary and secondary casualties from the 1997 nuclear strikes over the 1997-2000 period (pp. 234-236).

To put it another way, what survival rate would you consider plausible for a global conflict producing near-complete disruption of the medical and agricultural industries that enable the current population density in developed nations?

- C.

Wow, that's pretty opinionated. I loved the reflex system, and thought the background was pretty well done, and very well researched. I had a group put together (it fell through, oh well), and we were going to use the Reflex System, but the orig. Twilight 2000 1.0 background - not because we thought the 2013 background stunk, but for nostalgia reasons.

I never understood why some people are so quick to throw out the baby with the bathwater - not just here, but in all the RPG industry. If someone doesn't like the setting, but the rules are just fine, why not use them, and make your own background? Excepting for T:2000, I don't know of a system that I ever ran where I used the background as presented. At best I tweaked it a bit, at worst I chucked it out completely and wrote my own, or took another background for the game.

That's a good question. I think it's because a lot of would-be GMs don't have the creativity or time to create their own background. I was 11 when I picked up T2K v1.0 and I don't think I could have come up with better at that age. A lot of more mature GMs still don't have the wherewithall to create a believable background/setting. They rely on the published materials.

Also, I think most people are drawn to a game system precisely because of the background. "I like Fantasy and Cyberpunk lit so I'm going to check out Shadowrun..." or whatever. I've seen lots of online GMs who use different rules for a game but only a few examples of GMs who create new backgrounds/settings for use with an existing rules system.

Lastly, it's a question of cost. Nowadays, most PnP RPG core books are pretty expensive. I think most people will balk if presented with only half a useable product. Although I heard a lot of good things about the Reflex system, and was curious to try it out for myself, I didn't fork over the cash for T2103 bacause I didn't like the background. Now that the producer's kaput, I wish I'd gone ahead and picked up a copy. But, at the time, I didn't want to pay just for a new rules system.

I've always wondered how 93GS would have done, had they released the Reflex System standalone, and then T:2013 as a setting - that's how alot of game systems are doing it nowadays. Take Savage Worlds for instance - the 'Explorers Edition' - essentially just the base rules - sells for $10. Then you can buy setting books. They have everything from WWII, to High Fantasy, Steampunk, Wild West, dozens more. That way as a GM or group, you get the core rules, and plug-in the settings you want, or simply create your own.

No idea if that would have worked for 93GS or not however. I do know I still plan on getting a 2013 game going as soon as I can :)

Keith still has books for sale and there is always the .pdf on DTRPG.

The weak backstory was one of the reasons I didn't bother with it myself. As Raellus mentioned, I didn't want to pay for something that wasn't sitting well with me with what I saw. I later got a free copy, and granted I only skimmed through it, I'm still satisfied with sticking with the original.

Perhaps there should have been a separate rules book from the game book.

One of the MAJOR reasons I haven't picked it up is that I've never been able to lay my eyes on it. Personally I don't like buying sight unseen, I prefer to pick it up in the shop, flick through the pages and get a general feel for the work first.
Down in this part of the world that simply wasn't possible - it was either order it from O/S or fork out for the PDF after a brief look at the promo material. The local stores hadn't even heard of it.

Rae,

One problem with T2013 was that it wasn't even half a usable product.

From what I gathered, there were serious issues in parts of the vehicle combat system where it tried to mesh with the Reflex system in different ways relating to small arms and light cannon penetration vs light armoured vehicles and initiative. I think there are new rules (linked-to elsewhere in this forum) that iron out these inconsistencies a long time after I bought the main rules.

Tony

Pretty rough crowd here :)

The fact of the matter, this is the way the industry is going, except for maybe the big publishing houses. Mongoose may be able to get stock in stores around the world, but the majority of purchases are done via the internet, or even .pdf sales.

Trust me, I'd rather have it like the good ol' days of the 80's, where I could go to the hobby store, flip through the books for hours and hours, but those days are mostly gone excepting for the more mainstream stuff.

Cav,

Agreed, we do have to be realistic.

Sure, gone are the days when a gaming company could push any POS game out the door and sell them in a game store around the world. Those days are gone!

Still, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect games that are complete and playable. ;)

Tony

never used it, the back story made me sick so i shoved it to the floor where it sits to this day

40-60% would be in the range

my money, my opinion.......

pm me if you want my copy............

JFTR, this survival rate would equate roughly to the global population of the 1960s, give or take 10 years.

A 10% survival rate would equate to the global population of roughly 1700 or so.

If we use the 2006 world population that we had when we were working on the book.

Absolutely, I'm not trying to take it away from you. But you and others haven't even *played* the game, and are panning it, which doesn't make sense to me.

Nothing I say is going to make you pick it up and give it a whirl, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I was in a similar position here in the more civilized north. ;) I much prefer PnP materials over PDFs and the like. Call me old fashioned. The few gaming stores up here in my neck of the woods (S. Arizona) didn't carry T2103 ("Twilight what?")- at least when I checked- and refused to order it if I didn't pre-pay. Based on what I'd heard and seen to that point, I wasn't willing to jump through the hoops.

It must be hard for a small gaming company to get its product out there among the masses in this day and age. I don't fault 93GS for this situation. I'm sure they were doing the best they could with the resources they had. I think it's symptomatic of the PnP RPG industry as a whole.

Anymore for me, the answer is because I have multiple rules-sets that I can adapt to a setting that interests me. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 "generic" or "basic" rules in my possession-- Cortex, Traveller, and Savage Worlds. In the time it took me to type that sentence, I remembered I also have GURPS and generic D6.

T2k is one of the few games I have that I would run without shifting to another system,* and one of the few rules-that-came-with-settings that I might try to adapt to another setting.**

* Of the above, SW or Cortex would work for me in a T2k setting game. Or Trav, since that's where this thread started.
** I think v2.2 would work great in an espionage game, modern or historical.

Ah well, your money, your opinion as you say. Just seems strange to me that you have no interest in assessing the Reflex rules at all. You don't have to read those parts of the rule book dealing with T:2013's backstory. Heck, you could even cut that stuff out with a box cutter!

If I was going to start a new T2K campaign with players other than those I have been gaming with for the past 2 decades I would probably use the Reflex system over Gunmaster, that's how good I think it is.

I second this. I seriously like the Reflex system. I don't think any of the generic systems will work well. The one I am most familiar with - Savage Worlds - is exactly the opposite of what I think would work well with this setting. You have one skill for shooting - 'Shooting' that handles all firearms - rifles, pistols, smg, mg, etc. etc. SW lacks the crunch that this setting needs I think.

I didn't think I was going to be one to defend 2013 but, here goes nothing...

In my opinion this is an unnecessarily harsh criticism of the entire product because you can't really judge the rules if you're simply taking other people's comments on them and haven't actually read them yourself. :(

The Reflex system is a good solid set of rules that you can scale up or down as needed. Sure it had issues at the start with integration of vehicles but then so did Twilight: 2000 in at least 2nd ed. There's not a lot of new RPGs released in the last 10 years that didn't have minor rules issues here and there.

Just in case anyone sees more here than what I actually mean, I'm not seeking to attack anyone's opinion here, I'm not a fan of the 2013 timeline myself but geez talk about harsh crowd.
The guys did put out a decent stand-alone military RPG, something that very few (if any) other companies are even interested in doing.

Perhaps they should have called it 'Apocalypse: 2013' or called it 'End Date: 2013' or 'Alpha & Omega 2013' or just '2013' or any-damned-thing else - I think the biggest problem here is nostalgia. With the Twilight name attached to it, perhaps some people where expecting it to be exactly like T2k which it could never hope to be simply because the world has changed too much and as I mentioned before, military & post-apoc RPGs are now a minor market in the grand scheme of things.

It needed to be more current so as to attract the next generation of gamers because in reality, the only real market for Twilight: 2000 these days is with older gamers who already have most of what they need to run it. So the company would be reduced to making new adventure modules and with a product that has an appeal to a relatively small audience, you aint gonna make much money out of that.

I have run a T2013 campaign. I have said it before and I will repeat it here; T2013 has the best mechanic for small-unit conflict of any rpg I have ever played. I love T2k 2.2 ed., but T2013 blows that system out of the water. I never had a problem with any of the other rules including vehicle combat (which is admittedly rare).

The creators of T2013 made a serious tactical error when they marginalized the background. The background is weak enough to throw some people, adding a few tweaks made it work for me.

RPG publishing must be an enormous headache. I cannot imagine trying something on that scale.

SSC,

I think you are mistaken, I bought a copy of the rules and have "actually read them" myself. You are thinking of someone else? :confused:

As for who I listened to, I had some questions with the rules and figured I should go directly to the horse's mouth. These problems were posted there. In fact, I found a mea culpa from I what i believe were the game designers themselves, about how they tried to adapt T2Ks vehicle combat rules to Reflex and this created unexpected rules conflicts. (Like many things in life, I could be mistaken.) I don't think I'm being unnecessarily harsh if I'm simply agreeing with openly acknowledged flaws.

I agree, perhaps T2013 should have been called something else and therefore it could have been judged on its own terms, instead of using a licence that mostly ended up being ignored. A lot of effort is made in attracting a "new crowd", but my experience with newer gamers is they tend to expect simpler, quicker, more abstract rules and games, even when relating to combat and warfare. Pretty much the opposite of T2013 in general and Reflex in particular, whether or not you think this is good or bad. (Personally, I think there is a lot to recommend Reflex and while I've played and run Dogs in the Vineyard, Shock: Social Science Fiction, Unsung and other indie/avant-garde systems I still prefer a good crunchy game.)

Bringing this back to Mongoose, updating T2013 had demonstrably mixed results. Arguably, some gamers were at least a little alienated while the hoped-for breakthrough with younger gamers that was apparently the whole point of the exercise wasn't altogether achieved. It's not clear to me why if Mongoose were to take a kick at the can they would want to do it in the same way and expect different results.

Tony

I've never been in a position to deal with the business side of operations (always been freelance writing talent, never a "captive" employee), but my understanding is that the game distribution channels have radically contracted over the past decade. I can recall at least three major closures - one that outright destroyed several small publishers whose sole distributor went out of business.

I'll own that particular cock-up. This was the intersection of two separate design efforts that I didn't fully test in conjunction with one another before we released.

First was small arms effects on personnel. When we designed this, we went with an all-new damage and penetration formula based on a combination of kinetic energy and cross-sectional area. We calibrated the baseline numbers for a key set of calibers against the expected range of character wound thresholds. Then we set the numbers for body armor so it would equal real-world performance as per NIJ standards. So far, so good.

The problems came when, rather than doing the same thing for heavy weapons and vehicle armor, I tried to keep GDW's 2.0/2.2 values intact to allow easy adaptation of the vehicle guides. Unfortunately, because GDW's small arms damage and armor equivalency scales were different, this created situations where assault rifles could damage, if not outright kill, some AFVs - and a PC wearing Level IV trauma plates had better protection than a Stryker.

If anyone still cares at this point, here's the thread on the 93GS forum where I posted the complete fix. It's also in the Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine manuscript I released in July.

That's certainly not the only rules hole in Reflex. It's far from perfect and I have a laundry list of things I'd change if I had the opportunity to do a second edition of it.

The more I think about this, the more I expect Mongoose is going to attempt to cash in on the nostalgia market and apply their existing Trav rules set to a 1.0 or 2.0 timeline. I have no evidence for this belief beyond the fact that I don't think they did a reboot of the Trav timeline. I doubt it'll be successful, but niche products have surprised me before.

- C.

Tegyrus,

Please accept my apologies, I don't want to stir up any more ragging on you or 93SG. Thanks for including the link!

Regarding Mongoose, I think it's a little optimistic to hope that any game based on T2K (pretty much the definition of a realistic, crunchy, detailed military RPG) would somehow appeal to any untapped demographic segment of the market. Mongoose may as well go back to the well if niches are the dominant market reality.

Tony

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement helbent. Mind you, I am seeing it from the other side for the first time at the moment and man it is hard to get everything right!

No, you're good. Pointing out that particular issue was a valid criticism of the system and it's a hole I should have plugged shortly after release. Keeping up with errata is part of the job. Or was. Whichever.

Anyway. I'm unlikely to take exception to people pointing out errata issues unless they do it with significantly less tact than you did. My main issue is with people arbitrarily dismissing the system, unplayed and sometimes even unread, because something in the setting beat up their honor students or shaved their dogs.

This entire industry is a niche. No one does this to get rich. Well, some people get in thinking they will and learn painful lessons about the tiny and fickle nature of their target markets. But most of us do it because we're gamers and we have a burning drive to create, not just follow.

Now... from what Matt Sprange has said, Mongoose tends not to go after licenses unless someone on staff is passionate enough about the property to champion its acquisition and drive the subsequent projects. So there may be someone in their shop who'd fit in well here (if he isn't already lurking) and whose vision matches this community's more than the 2013 team's did. I suspect they have a business plan that they think they can make work. I just don't know that I share their optimism right now.

- C.

I suppose the demise of T:2013 must be somewhat like loosing a child. You put a lot of love and effort into raising it the best you can and then, after a short illness you try to stay positive through, it's all over and you find yourself shovelling dirt into it's grave.
:(

Tegyrus,

Hey, I would imagine that if Mongoose had someone who went to bat for Traveller, there is someone who likes T2K due to the natural cross-over between the games. There may or may not be cause for optimism, I think there is enough of an established market to break even. We can only hope!

Tony

Leg,

Bloody hell, now I want to kill myself.

Worst. Metaphor. Ever. :p

Tony

Sorry, my mistake. When you used the phrase "From what I gathered...", I understood it as not "I've read it and these are my thoughts..." but as "I've heard this about it..."

SSC,

Sure, but even if I was going off secondhand knowledge you really took me to task for bringing up known problems that 93GS already publicly copped to themselves (insofar as Tegyrus was speaking for them). If that's "unnecessarily harsh criticism" to you, what, if anything, could possibly constitute fair criticism of T2013? :rolleyes:

I mean, you know, I implicitly understand the main problem is T2013 was just too awesome and I'm not worthy. Let's just accept that, and move on. ;)

Tony

I got around to reading the Reflex rules and I must say I'm very impressed, if its not "the best" its damn close......... :)