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Some ramblings
I've been thinking more about this, since we opened the question of post-OMEGA Poland. So, a little thread-necromancy here....
In Going Home, the Third German Army has practically abandoned the eastern frontier. What's up with that? There's only 1 division in contact (as I would consider it), the rest, including III Corps HQ, have pulled back to the west and north. The British pulled out from around Berlin, too. For that matter, why is XI Corps pinned where it is? There are no Pact or even German units between them and Kiel. I just re-read most of the above posts. I think Legbreaker is onto something with the "more mobile Polish cavalry." We've mostly all agreed that the appearance of the Fourth Guards Tank Army with diesel in its tanks was a shock. What if the wholesale mounting of those Polish & Soviet troops on horses was another shock? Or more specifically, the mobility those troopers obtained against the mechanized NATO forces? We have read that both Third German Army and 5th US Mechanized Division had a stop-and-go movement pattern for brewing, something they had probably become accustomed to since 1998 or '99. But formations that could ride circles around them on the days they were halted? Bands of riders that could appear to shoot up unarmored vehicle columns? That's scary. So, what if we are looking at a command failure, or a series of the same? The commanding generals of III German and XI US Corps are blindsided by this new Pact mobility in their area, and Third German Army is surprised by both the Soviet offensive south of Berlin and the reports of the Guards with real fuel coming up through the Soviet rear. Let's jack up the tension. Say there are just a few, a very few, sorties by Pact jets at this time. Another "impossible" feat. If the Soviets could put together diesel to get a tank army from Romania to Poland, why not a flight of MiGs, dropping down on an undefended HQ? Or a missile strike-- nuclear, biological or chemical? Then maybe one or more of the commanders that started the offensive isn't the one around at the end. Some work by Spetsnaz or even an unlucky brush with marauders could do the same. For that matter, some here have questioned the plan that sent the 5th and 8th Mech divisions helter-skelter across Poland. Or even an offensive in Poland at all, given the conditions in the spring of 2000? Was CG Third Army in his right mind? Really? (If he isn't what does that say about his staff?) How might the command that issues the orders for the, let's say grandiose, offensive of 2000 react when it is evident that the enemy has more mobile forces than he does? If Army command gets confused and the Corps commanders are beleaguered by the Pact, I can see things melting away to what I outlined above. If the Army commander isn't nuts, maybe the XI Corps staff might stage a coup when they find out that two of their divisions just drove away (probably with most of the reserve fuel) on nebulous one-way missions. That would certainly set up some command paralysis. The German III Corps pulls back in the absence of coherent orders from Army. By November, its divisions are mostly up in the far north of Germany. The US XI Corps is feeling very abandoned, both by its neighbor corps and by the Army HQ that stuck it out on a limb, with two of its divisions even further out. Maybe the command is feeling abandoned even by USAREUR, who attached them to the Germans in the first place, and then ordered everyone else home. Were there bad personal feelings among the commanders before the attack? I bet there are now. So, like Webstral's profile of General Thomason, here's my attempt to get into the head of three other commanding generals (or more, if one or more of them were replaced in the campaign). I hope it's clear. |
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There is an entry in the rumour tables in The Black Madonna module that one of the nuclear demolition charges laid by withdrawing NATO forces in Czestochowa in mid-July 1997 did not detonate, and it may have been recovered by others: Quote:
One of Major Po's men at the time that they killed Filipowicz underneath the Jasna Gora was a US Army engineer trained to use nuclear demolition charges. Col Stark was more than happy to provide DIA assistance to Po to make the nuke useable again and to send Po on his way to destroy Lublin. In my campaign once Soviet Reserve Front HQ was nuked nearly all Soviet command coherance in Poland soon collapsed. That probably would have happened eventually anyway but the nuking sped the process up. That (naturally enough) took alot of pressure off German forces in eastern Germany and allowed Operation Omega to go ahead more smoothly than it would have done in canon. |
As I recall very few units of NATO OOB had converted to horse cavalry. I do believe that beside a few units such as Divisional Cavalry at Division level and odd Brigade/Armor Cavalry Regiment had been converted to operate as Horse Cavalry. I do remember that within the US 5th Mechanized Division that their Divisional Cavalry had been operating as horse cavalry for scouting purpose because there was limited understanding that being such during the current condition, were more mobile than if they had retain vehicles.
On the hand looking through several OOB, seems the Soviets and many of their Pact allies had stripped from several units from various levels from Army on down of equipment that was used to bring other units up on equipment. Then the remains of these units were made into horse cavalry when they received their replacement and horses. One has to remember that even in WWII both Germany and the Soviets had Cavalry Divisions and the Soviet had used larger Cavalry formation against the Germans at time when many wouldn't of thought twice of using such formation due to their experiences on the Western Front during WWI which was the last time the US, UK and France had for all purposes fielded a Cavalry force. Even the way Polish Cavalry was decimated by the Germans in 1939 justified these opinions. Even the Germans weren't too convince of the worth of having horse cavalry unit. Then forward scenes on the Eastern Front where German and their allies Panzer, Motorized/Panzergrenadier Divisions and Corps were stuck in the mud more or less during spring thaw and the Soviet unleashed their various Cavalry Corps upon the unsuspecting Germans. Same with winter when units had German Panzer/Panzergrenadier had grounded to halt since they were barely receiving enough fuel to keep their motors going. They didn't stop the engines much for fear of not being able to restart them due oil and fuel freezing. For the officers who were fighting on the Eastern Front seeing or hearing there was Soviet Cavalry operating nearby was enough to cause a panic during these times of year. Now you are a German Division Command X, German Corps Commander Y, and German Army Command Z. The Offensive of 2000 starts know all to well there are various units of the Pact forces that have been converted to Cavalry. Due to their position you don't know what they are really capable of, but you remember what your father, uncles, maybe grandfather and such had told you about large Soviet Cavalry formation in WWII. Since the start of the war you haven't encounter and like many in NATO you downplay their usefulness. Many of the Polish Cavalry units you happen to know about aren't much larger than those formation on NATO side. You along with NATO Supreme Command Q believe that you can sustain an Offensive and gain most of the outline objectives. This is with the beforehand knowledge that your offensive will go in spurts as Divisions would have to stop to brew fuel. You are hoping at best once a Division has to stop, the one right behind would be ready to leapfrog ahead. At worse case you have this happening at Brigade level which was happening with the 5th Mechanized Division and I suppose it probably what happen at with the 8th Mechanized. The unit that is stop is brewing fuel for it next jump forward, knowing that some may have to be given to the unit moving through their area as a helping hand to keep some forward movement. As this happening you have limited horse cavalry that are protecting your flanks and scouting ahead when you are forced to standstill, and when moving they protect the rear. One of the things that comes as a shock is the Polish Cavalry seem to be more mobile and are attacking rear areas of the XI Corps and raiding the communication line of the units of the III German Corps. Suddenly units of the US XI Corps identify not one Soviet Army that was in the Soviet Union days before but two complete Armies. One the Soviet Fourth Guards Tank Army seems to have hit the 5th US Mechanized Division head-on blindly. While the other has been identified 22nd Soviet Cavalry Army, combined with reports that other Soviet had been report moving from Souther Poland and fearing being caught in pincer movement, the commanders decide to fall back to their start positions, remembering all too well what they use to hear about the Soviet Cavalry Corps and the destruction they would cause on German units in WWII..... |
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Cavalry units listed below. Central Defense Group * Canada Eastern Defense Group * Canada Northwestern Defense Group * Canada Southwestern Defense Group * Canada Al Amarah Brigade * Iraq (French Allied) Group Ar Ramadi * Iraq (US Allied) Group Kirkuk * Iraq (US Allied) 104th Recon Battalion * Netherlands 102nd Recon Battalion * Netherlands 3rd Cavalry Division * Poland 17th Cavalry Division * Poland 12th Cavalry Division * Poland 19th Cavalry Division * Poland 2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd 'Warsaw' MRD) * Poland 13th Cavalry Division * Poland 1st Marine Commando Brigade *Turkey The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom The Queens' Royal Irish Hussars * United Kingdom 6th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom 132nd Cavalry Division * USSR 152nd Motorized Rifle Division * USSR 43rd Cavalry Division * USSR 96th Cavalry Division * USSR 14th Tank Division (Cavalry) * USSR 89th Cavalry Division * USSR 127th Cavalry Division * USSR 9th Motorized Rifle Division (Cavalry) * USSR 20th Guards Cavalry Division * USSR 94th Cavalry Division * USSR |
It seems then that the Commonwealth nations (Canada and the UK) held most of the horse cavalry strength of Nato while the US and Germany stayed high tech as much as they could.
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Perhaps, as you mentioned, the Soviets nuked a road hub to the west of XI Corps when the Soviet formations broke off their attack (the late summer PACT offensive mentioned in Going Home) or used chem/bio weapons to deny XI corps passage west. If, at the same time, XI fuel stores were spent and/or destroyed (maybe that airstrike or Spetznaz raid you mentioned), they could have been stranded there. The proximity between XI Corps' cantonments and Pila, seat of the Polish Free Congress, suggests cooperation between the two. Perhaps the XI Corps commander decided to stay put for some other reason. Perhaps he is ideologically opposed to pulling out of Europe. Perhaps he is of Polish ancestry or has a particularly well developed sense of honor. Perhaps it is a combination of several of the factors listed above. It's an interesting situation and makes for an intriguing campaign setting c. the winter of 2000-2001. |
I agree. It sounds more like XI Corps is not pinned -- they just don't want to leave. Maybe they have a stake in the area's future. Maybe they just told their superiors that they were pinned.
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No if the UK units that were convert I believe would of been the recon role with in their parent unit. Much like the 4-12th Cavalry had been converted to horse cavalry for it mission within the 5th US Mechanized Division.
I think NATO realized the limitations of modern warfare with the lack of fuel. What they failed to realize is similar to what happen to the UK and France with how Armor fit into the new style of warfare. It kinda like the American Civil War. During most of the war, the cavalry units of the Union Army was used for recon and guarding flanks and trains. They be used to form a skirmish line if need be. The Union Army did use their cavalry force as shock troops until late in the war. When it they had started to use them as such, they were busy as both shock troop and giving the Confederate Cavalry fits. Even though the US Cavalry still had mounted troops into WWII, many of these troop were on border protection along the US-Mexican Border. Which is ironic that the US Border Patrol in some location along the same border still mount patrols on horse back. Even Iraqi were organized due to the fact they operate in marshy areas of Iraq. The Canadian ones I am sure it was the same reason why the 1st Cavalry Division up until the start of WWII was still on horse back. There was large expanse of area to patrol. Horse Cavalry is more economically way to patrol the large areas. Turkey Commando converted probably due to the fact that many of the areas is mountainous. Much like US Special Forces teams using horse during times in Afghanistan. It is means for them to be mobile and not let technology get them in trouble. Last time the British had used large Cavalry formation was during WWI when the appalling losses dismounted the units and had them fight as Foot Infantry. As for the Germans, their Cavalry was used more in rear area security than front line troops. German has been one of those countries that embraced Panzer/Armor warfare over the old horse Cavalry and really never looked back. I am sure that the Germans would have their eyes open and would look into either raising some new Cavalry units or converting units they already and consolidating more AFVs, IFVs, and APCs to other units. Ironically it was trench warfare and machine gun emplacement with in the trench network that killed horse cavalry in many military organization eyes. With the invention tanks, armor cars, ifv, apc, cfv, fast moving light trucks (ie jeep), motorcycles, along with helicopter have been used in many place instead of cavalry. Many of these vehicle were created to help fill one role or another that cavalry formation use to take in the military. At the same time there are still parts of the world where horse cavalry has survived. Of course they aren't the all important shock troops that they once were before, but are effective in raiding and acting the eye and ears of the organization they work for. What is more telling is the number of Polish and Soviet units have been converted to Cavalry. The Soviets went so far to convert one army to horse cavalry. Even the Cavalry forces of both had operated in WWII, the Polish ones were slaughter against the German Panzer. While the Soviet used their Corps size units during times when the Panzer/Panzergrenadier/Motorized units had been mired in mud or during major operation in conjecture with Tank and Mechanized Corps to exploits break-outs. There were even some Czech units that had been converted to horse cavalry. I think in one of the module I read where Hungarian units was found somewhere in the modules in and around Poland, and they were I believe mounted. Greece and Yugoslavia regions area would be another location where some more use. Thank you Kato for responding. I am sure there was ARC or two who had converted into Horse Cavalry but I can't find my copy of the US Army Vehicle Guide. For that fact the Soviet one is missing too..:( |
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I like the Polish-ancestry angle, but even more I like the psychological breakdown possibility. At Origins War College a year or two ago, someone talked briefly on the phenomenon of commanders breaking down when they saw whole units wiped out. It happened very very rarely to the US in WW2 and Korea, but a lot more on the Eastern Front or to the Germans. The commenter thought that NATO armies hadn't done much to address that kind of psychological stress. I think that may be something to look at in the III German and XI US Corps commanders-- maybe that's why the Germans retreated northwest and the Americans sat down. As for the Polish Free Congress getting more Polish forces to switch over, the now-permanent presence of the Americans should certainly have been a factor. Even more so if there is a senior American in the Corps who is of Polish ancestry, willing to settle down and make something in his(her) homeland. |
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I think my prerequisite was either manpower was all cavalry or it had the words "converted to cavalry" in the description. If you find any other units that did a 100% conversion let me know I will change their symbol in my database. Here are all the units which have any "cavalry" listed under manpower 2/Royal Canadian Regiment * Canada 2/Ontario Regiment * Canada Central Defense Group * Canada 2/Rocky Mountain Rangers * Canada 1/King's Own Calgary Regiment * Canada 1/Royal Winnipeg Rifles * Canada Eastern Defense Group * Canada Northwestern Defense Group * Canada 3/Toronto Regiment * Canada 1/Loyal Edmonton Regiment * Canada 1/Toronto Scottish Regiment * Canada Southwestern Defense Group * Canada Al Amarah Brigade * Iraq (French Allied) Group Kirkuk * Iraq (US Allied) Group Ar Ramadi * Iraq (US Allied) 104th Recon Battalion * Netherlands 102nd Recon Battalion * Netherlands 3rd Cavalry Division * Poland 17th Cavalry Division * Poland 12th Cavalry Division * Poland 19th Cavalry Division * Poland 2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd 'Warsaw' MRD)* Poland 13th Cavalry Division * Poland The Queens' Royal Irish Hussars * United Kingdom 1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment * United Kingdom 6th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom 132nd Cavalry Division * USSR 117th Guards Tank Division * USSR 135th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR 40th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR 43rd Cavalry Division * USSR 96th Cavalry Division * USSR 157th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR 51st Tank Division * USSR 154th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR 89th Cavalry Division * USSR 127th Cavalry Division * USSR 14th Tank Division (Cavalry) * USSR 9th Motorized Rifle Division (Cavalry) * USSR 24th Guards Motorized Rifle Division * USSR 20th Guards Cavalry Division * USSR 94th Cavalry Division * USSR 1st Panzergrenadier Division * West Germany |
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Lack of fuel after the earlier offensive coupled with the expenditure of ammunition, probable casualties, etc all likely combine with the blown bridges across the Oder and limited bridging/ferrying capabilities of the XI Corps. Basically it's not the enemy that's the main problem, but their own supply issues and success at destroying bridges, etc earlier in the war. |
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The plan obviously wasn't supposed to work out that way - the rest of the German III Army was supposed to follow on behind the US XI Corps and basically fill in the gap between them and the Oder. The Pact counterattack effectively drove a wedge between them, forcing the Germans to remain west of the river but also resulted in significant damage and disruption to the Soviets involved.
It is likely however that at least some Germans reached the 2nd MARDIV - how else can we explain how the marines ended up with a Leopard III in their ranks? My guess is the tank was part of a relief/resupply force and was cut off with the XI Corps - the tank is probably still crewed by Germans who have been absorbed into the division. I suspect that the nearest intact bridge to the mouth of the Oder was in the area of Berlin, a good 100-150 km inland. This distance is almost insurmountable, especially if my proposal that the 2nd MARDIV lost the vast bulk of it's fuel reserves at sea is accepted. Corps HQ, 50th AD, 116th ACR and the Canadians would be forced to give up a large proportion of their reserves to allow the marines to extricate themselves from the Wistla delta and rejoin the Corps. I would suggest that this loss occured after the 8th ID had passed through and could have been either an accident, or activity of some type by the enemy (could have been a spetnaz raid with limpit mines, rare airstrike, missile attack, or possibly torpedo boat). Give the XI Corps a few months to distill fuel and they might have a chance - if they've got enough ammo left after the offensive/counteroffensive. The only port available to the XI Corps is Kołobrzeg. No vessel longer than 85m and a draft of just 4.7m can safely enter - this basically rules out anything larger than a large tug or fishing boat, and completely rules out anything capable of carrying a decent cargo (including armoured vehicles). Therefore evacuation by sea is at best impractical and at worse likely to result in the loss of a few ships. http://www.maritime.com.pl/port/inde...p?p=KOLOBRZEG# It is also likely that at least one side has bombed the town and port facilities, and highly likely mined the approaches further rendering any large scale movement of stores, etc even more difficult. |
Ooo, I hadn't thought about bridges being dropped! I think cavalry action or that last airstrike might be great for this. Or worse, when the cavalry drove off III German Corps, the Germans blew bridges over the Oder behind them, which pissed off CG XI Corps. (I have some random name generator tables around here, I'm going to assign something to these generals.)
As for shipping, IIRC the Polish Baltic coast is mostly terrible for heavy-draft ships. I'm just wondering what happened to the amphibious shipping that brought the Marines in? If it still exists, couldn't it get at least some out? My guess is it got sucked into the OMEGA evacuation fleet. |
It is likely that almost every bridge across the Oder has been dropped at some point during the war. Any existing bridges are likely to be relatively low capacity structures thrown up by engineers and destroyed half a dozen more times by enemy action. It wouldn't take much for the XI Corps to be cut off in this manner.
As far as we know from canon sources, only the John Hancock and Tarawa are in the area. Both have drafts of over 8 metres making them totally unable to enter the port, or even get close in all probability. Naturally there are numerous civilian vessels that make up TF 34 which may have been available, but again, the port of Kołobrzeg restricts vessels to only the smallest. It is possible the Tarawa was the ship sunk in my assessement of the offensive, taking the bulk of the marines fuel reserves with it. This particular ship in my mind at least would make for a more suitable flagship than the John Hancock and as it's not mentioned as part of TF 34.... Regardless, any vessels which could be used to evacuate the XI Corps are either too small to be all that useful (restricted to maybe carrying 1 heavy vehicle and/or perhaps 50 men), or would require small craft to ferry men, equipment, stores, etc out to them. All this requires fuel which may not be available if there's to be enough left for the evacuation to continental US. It would also require the XI to be withdrawn peicemeal, seriously degrading their ability to fend off the Poles. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the rearguard and amongst the last few hundred pulled out! |
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http://games.juhlin.com/tools/names.html Still very much a work in progress. Just reload to get new names. |
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I like the idea of the 2nd MarDiv's fuel going up in flames at sea and the rest of XI Corps (sans the 5th and 8th IDs) being forced to give up most of its fuel to get the Marines back to NW Poland. I also like the idea of a row between the German 3rd Army commander/staff and the U.S. XI Corps commander/staff. It could help explain (in part) why XI Corps decided to stay put in Poland. I'm still not convinced that Polish and Soviet cavalry could have chased off a couple of German Panzergrenadier divisions (IIRC, one Panzer and two PZGR division, plus the Danish Jutland division). I'm not even convinced that most of the Soviet and Polish units designated as cavalry formations even had horses. Going Home actually clearly identifies the number of cavalry in a given unit and most "Cavalry" divisions listed therein have no cavalry strengths listed. (i.e. it differentiates between infantry and cavalry within a given unit). This seems to make sense. There seems to have been consensus on the old forum that the Europe of '96-2000 didn't have an adequate horse population to properly mount all of those cavalry units. |
I agree that cavalry alone is very unlikely to have a great effect on mechanised formations while they're mobile (or even dug in for that matter). However, examining unit movements from 01JUL00 to OCT/NOV00 shows us that Soviet units on the north end of the line have moved south and east further than any other Pact unit anywhere in Poland.
It is my assertion that this is the aftereffects of a very hard and violent push downstream along the Oder, cutting the III German Army into two sections (the Germans to the west and US to the east). Worn out from the fighting, the commander of that Pact army (can't recall what the units are at the moment) withdrew his forces to rebuild their strength although strong patrols have been maintained to prevent the bridges being rebuilt. How sucessful the Pact recovery is remains to be seen, although there are sure to be losses from desertion over winter. I do not believe a simple disagreement between XI Corp HQ and III German Army HQ would be anywhere near sufficent to have the US units remain in Poland. I know people can be stubborn sometimes, but to risk thousands of soldiers lives just on principle? What is believable if you want to include a rift between the commands, is that the Germans simply didn't back up the US units as much as they could have. Once pressure was applied by the Pact in another area of the front (say southern Germany), the danger to their homeland became more important than pushing on into Poland, at least in the minds of a handful of officers in vital positions. It may also have been expected that the ports at either Gdynia or Gdansk would have been captured as part of the offensive and their larger vessel capabilities put to use. There are no ports between Gdynia and the German border capable of much more than good sized fishing boats. Without dedicated landing craft, many of which are likely to have been previously destroyed or lost as late as the 2nd MarDiv's landing to the east, only a handful of amphibious vehicles such as AAVP-7A1's could have been taken - the M1's of 50th AD, Leopards of the Canadians, M8's of the 116th ACR, etc would all be lost, or worse, fall into enemy hands. |
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As for the Cavalry Division that they list, remember these units had been previously MRDs and TDs that had been transformed over to Cavalry as their heavy equipment was stripped to re-equipped other units. At the same time there were personnel that they lost. So the Cavalry Divisions are basic new fresh units with few veterans. Remember the 10th Soviet Guard Tank Division received 3000 new troop during the spring of 2000 from Central Asia. Then try to figure out when these the Soviet Union had transformed the Divisions of the 22nd Cavalry Army to Cavalry and were there areas of Russia where large horse population exist. Then could they move them to the staging areas of the 22nd Cavalry Army. This seems to be the largest formation to converted to Cavalry. Some of the Soviet Division that were Austria, Germany, and Poland have been partial converted to Cavalry. Ironic the 96th Cavalry Division which was part of the 22nd Cavalry Army still has Infantry listed, leading me to believe that there was still a limited amount motor transportation by some means to help move the Infantry as needed. Then again the 22nd Cavalry Army HQ and 96th Cavalry Division were quartered together so maybe the infantry come Army level units that was absorbed into the Division after things had settle down. |
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Also for the part after their initial break out, they are in contact with very week Polish units and Soviet Cavalry that are exhausted by the time they get to the battle field. We don't know if Germans had spent long enough in Poland where they had to stop to brew some fuel at which point they were immobilized and then sudden realizing the cavalry units still operating in their area were still mobile. Remember this is first operation in a couple years of this size and there was a steep learning curve to pass. Now granted if US military had wanted too, they could of pulled the XI Corps including the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group back, but it would mean leaving large amount of equipment and stock for someone to come along and pick up. The people who came along to pick up the equipment and stock would more than likely turn the equipment against NATO and NATO friendly Polish units. I think the XI Corps Command staff agreed it was more important for them to stay in place than allowing people to return home. Next thing is the XI Corps is the only units in the near future that is able to present a real threat to several Pact force with very little effort of the Corps in the future. It set up to launch raids along the Soviet lines of communications that are in Germany. Especially when you consider some Soviet and Polish units are fighting over control of territory in the aftermath of destroying the 5th Mechanized Division. While other Polish units are unhappy that they have new neighbors that are taxing the local resource that barely supported the local populace and them. The 10th Polish Tank Division and the 21st Soviet Motorized Rifle Division are units in particular that are openly fighting over control of cantonments areas, even though they are both under the same command. Another thing with Going Home many of the Front and Army HQs on both sides had cease to exist due to a variety of reasons. NATO the Fourth US Army and First German Army are now merged resources. With the Armies of Germany and Czech more or less taking over local government functions as well. There are several US, Czech, Polish, German, and Soviet unit operating independently of higher HQs by this time too. The Various Fronts 1st Southwest Front no longer functioning as a Command HQ, and was absorbed by the 1st Czech Tank Army which itself was operating more of government administration unit than a military unit willing to go on the offensive. 1st Czech Tank and 4th Czech Army were both operating as government functions. 21st Soviet Army was still functioning, with units remaining loyal in Austria. 2nd Southwest Front no longer functioning. 8th Soviet Guard Tank Army, functioning but unwilling to take offensive actions. 16th Soviet Army, in communication with only the 106th Soviet MRD and unwilling to take offensive action. V Italian Corps, pulling back into Italy and not willing to take offensive action. 41st Soviet Army, functioning, but unwilling to take offensive action. Baltic Front 1st Polish Army, No longer accepting orders and many of it units have merge with local militias. 2nd Polish Army, Ceased to exist as a coherent unit. Some units are still loyal, but not willing to take offensive action. 1st Polish Tank Army, Cease to exist and merged with 5th Polish Tank Division and they have declared for the Polish Congress. 22nd Cavalry Army still operating and only in contact with the 96th Cavalry Division, but unable of offensive action after action in Germany Reserve Front. Still in Lublin and occasional communication with component units. Effectively only in control of Lublin. Seat of Soviet Military government of Poland. 4th Guard Tank Army, ceased to exist as a unit and merged with the 20th Tank Division in Lodz. 3rd Shock Army, Ceased to exist as a coherent unit, remaining units intend to return to various parts of the Soviet Union come spring. 1st Western Front: Only in contact with the 9th Soviet Guard Tank Division which is loyal but unable to take offensive action due to lack of fuel and spare parts. 1st Soviet Guards Tank Army, Cease to exist as a unit. None of it units are accepting orders. 8th Soviet Guard Tank Army, Ceased to exist as a coherent unit. One Division intends to return to the Soviet Union, another has become part of local Militia and another is still loyal but like the 9th Soviet Guard Tank Division it unable to do much due to lack of fuel and spare parts. 2nd Western Front: No longer a exist as a coherent unit. 2nd Soviet Guard Army: Still operating but in contact with two of their division, the other divisions of the Army no longer accepting orders. 20th Soviet Guard Army: No longer a coherent unit. One division has defected to NATO, another no longer accepting orders, and the last has a small amount of gasoline for vehicle but running on alcohol to preserve it, still loyal but reluctant to take offensive action (just not hiding behind the lack of spare parts and fuel 'card' that other units have been)/ |
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It's possible that the Germans also had to give up a large amount of the fuel reserve to the Marines to get them out of the delta. This too may have contributed to the abbrievated offensive - no fuel means no point (or ability) to continue forward. I lean towards this scenario as it explains why a German Leopard III is part of the US 2nd MARDIV in October 2000 (it was security for one of the fuel resupply collumns). Even with the resupply, I see XI Corps as being extremely short on fuel. This lack of fuel results in them being forced into generally static positions and allows the Polish Cavalry to run rings around them. The Ples might not be strong enough to inflict a decisive defeat over the XI Corps, but they're certainly able to contain them. |
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Like stated there was extreme learning curve during this operation. Probably the first NATO Army/Pact Front size operation in Europe since 1998, more than likely since then end of 1997. I see most operation in 1998 after the last of the major fuel stockpile for NATO being conducted at Corps and Divisional level to get their units in better defended positions but nothing larger since it is realize they don't have resources to do so. On the Soviet side their lack of an effective supply chain is showing. Spare parts don't exist and fuel comes in trickle if at all, while they are able to get new conscripts they then need to take time to train them, and then secure food to feed these new troops too. Desertion would raise sharply in the Soviet units due to lack of supplies, so they units start to revert back to what they had done before the war to survive. Raise crops in their area where they at. |
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Re: USS Tarawa-- As far as I'm concerned, she could still take part in OMEGA, but perhaps without any landing craft. As has been said, there aren't ports to receive large ships in the XI Corps zone, so any reinforcement, resupply or evacuation would require landing craft. Which could have been the real casualty of the summer storm that has been touched on here before. |
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For the heck of it, Ronald Ortega commands the 50th Armored Division, Mark Trowbridge the 2nd Marine Division, and Sarah Wilson the ACR. Jean-Marc Mondenard is the name my (paper) French name-generator came up with, so he's the brigadier of the 4th Canadian brigade. (I assume someone from the 22e Regiment is most likely to succeed to command there.) Markus Kienholtz commanded Third German Army, and Ludiwg Kalb the III German Corps. There, now we could use names, rather than typing titles over and over again. :) |
I posted this in the Poland After Omega thread but I thought I'd mention it here as well since it seems germaine.
Regarding U.S. XI Corps: why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that they may have had good reasons to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power. Blown bridges are obstacles, but not insurmountable ones, especially if one is willing to abandon heavy equipment. Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could the "abandonment" of XI Corps have been a political move? The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made them an offer of assistance? Perhaps CivGov had plans to keep a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful enclave in NW Poland- a bridgehead in Europe, of sorts. |
That seems a stretch, as I can't recall any indicators of CivGov trying to do much of anything outside its enclaves Stateside. Still, it's a possibility.
IMO, those "not-insurmountable" difficulties might have seemed insurmountable to those in command. I think a combination of CIA/CivGov promises to both XI Corps' leaders and the Polish Free Congress together might have swung things their way. If, as I have said, Generals Sweitzer and Wojcik felt that they (and their new PFC allies) were being abandoned, then a CivGov appeal (from a CIA person with the PFC?) could work. |
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I always assumed that CivGov were actively involved in intelligence gathering in Poland. In my campaign at least one of the pro-NATO Polish forces had CivGov sympathies. |
The US forces located in the Balkans are all there due to Civgov's meddling in military matters. There's also a CIA operative attached to the Soviet 10th TD outside Warsaw (he meets with a violent fate sometime in winter 00-01).
The Oder River isn't a minor obstacle. Deep enough to accomodate battleships in WWII (one was grounded and used as a battery against the Soviets in the last days of the war), and wider than most easily portable bridging equipment can cope with, it would take a major operation to cross. We can assume all prewar bridges and ferries have been destroyed in the preceeding 4 years of warfare and pontoon bridges, etc sabotaged and so on many times since. Anything capable of carrying more than a dozen people at a time is likely to be destroyed or otherwise unavailable (hidden away, sailed off to Norway, etc). The Polish coastline from the mouth of the Oder all the way around to Gdynia is unsuitable for major amphibious operations with shallow treacherous waters. All the minor habours along this stretch allow vessels of no more than 4.7 metres draft (most modern warships, including those intended for amphibious ops require more than this). Landing craft after 4 years of war are likely to be very rare and hard to come by. Fuel to power the few that are available is likely to have been expended landing the 2nd Marines east of Gdansk (and probably suffered losses from enemy resistance there). Essentially all that's left able to access the XI Corps area are a few fishing boats and yachts, none able to carry more than a few tonnes at a time, IF fuel could be found. It's also probable the only port the XI has access to has been damaged by either or both sides previously and the approaches mined to prevent it's use by coastal patrol boats, torpedo boats, etc. I've also previously mentioned somewhere than a withdrawal by the available transportation resources would require a long, gradual depletion of combat strength. Eventually the nearby enemy units would pick up on the withdrawal and also be strong enough to destroy the remaining elements of XI Corp. Chances are they'd also capture a fairlly large supply of equipment and stores in the process. Basically the XI Corp has little hope of withdrawing without inviting a catastrophy. The best they can expect is for limited resupply by sea to the order of a few tonnes per day (at best). The good news is they should be able to evacuate badly wounded and excess specialist personnel while possibly receiving some reinforcements. The PFC to me is almost an irrelevance. Lacking in effective combat power, chances are they'll be wiped out by marauders in the near future (if the Soviets don't do it first). At best they're a puppet government or ineffective propaganda tool of the west. |
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I don't see Operation Omega as the DIA/MilGov abandonment of the Polish Free Congress. I am sure NATO is still committed to the PFC as whole, okay maybe not all agree, Germans may want to reclaim territory, but in basis of Polish Government on NATO side they agree. For the PFC it will be just another set back in a long series of setbacks that date to 1939. I assumed that after the US troops out of NATO, they assumed the UK would continue to work with the PFC. Also it could be also that the Command Staff of the US XI HQ aren't ignorant of Operation Omega. Maybe they had made choice to stay to help the PFC, but didn't want let other outside of HQ to know about their decision, due to losing troops who may want to go home. Yes, I know how the canon is written, but people do adjust stuff they don't agree with. Or maybe you can write that XI Corps does what most troops in Central Command and the US Fourth Army. They simply decide to stay put. Just maybe one of the many reason they haven't moved is due to the fact they are there for the express reason to help the PFC get a larger foothold and to expand control of other parts of Poland. Just some thoughts. |
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I think that there's got to be something more holding them back than the Oder. Quote:
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I know someone from the old board had done some work what the XI Corps would be doing in this region. I know there are some natural resources too that would be valuable. |
As far as I can see, the PFC has little to nothing to do with the post WWII Polish government in exile which I think was located in London. It was however set up by Nato in Poznan during the good times in 1997 (before the nukes and Pact counteroffensive). On my brief bedtime read last night I couldn't see any reference to it moving after this time.
Therefore, (and almost unbelievably) it's apparently well behind enemy lines in 2000. However, Poznan was nuked - chances are that this occured because the PFC was located there, effectively wiping the newly created political entity off the face of the planet along with the majority of governements around the globe. |
Looking at the Map it seems some German Third Army/German III Corps units were on either side of the US XI Corps at some points. Looks as if the III Corps was passing through the region being held by the main body of the XI Corps. Could be these units were their to help consolidate the XI Corps before they were withdrawn. Hence the reason why there are German units in the mix of the 2nd Marine Division.
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It is possible that at least some elements of the Germans entered northern Poland as planned in support of XI Corp. It is unlikely they moved past, or even into to any great extent the area of operations of the XI Corps.
Once the Pact counter offensive got underway, the German III Corps were able to withdraw back to the west of the Oder. Some small elements may have been cut off along with XI Corp, most probably those who'd been tasked with resupply of the marines. This would explain why only the marines are shown to have picked up the German Leopard III. It is almost certain that the 2nd MARDIV were the most easterly unit in the Nato offensive except for the US 5th and 8th IDs. They were therefore fairly lucky in my mind to have been able to withdraw and consolidate with the rest of the Corps. |
I find that even if Legbreaker is totally wrong here which he may be, his point is solid this is not real life nor is it 1990-1995 troop levels.
Id say you would need 1986-88 OOB's and they would need to be slightly updated. The DC Fellow is being very rude. If someone doesnt like your ideas you cant tell them not to post. Thats crazy and stop bragging your experience nobody here has any experience running a country directing a military or surviving nuclear war so everyone get off your high horses |
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I left my own forum for several months mostly because of how I felt Leg was acting. I will admit crushing issues in real life were also to blame, but in my own case Leg turned this forum from a place I enjoyed into a place I loathed for a time. |
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You hit the nail on the head. T2K asks you to think outside of the box so to speak. Someone without any real life knowledge after reading the player rule book should be to play the game on a reasonable level playing field with someone who has been in the military/government/corporate manager, with a GM who can balance the two experience levels of their players. There have been several incidents in Real Life that have happen, that shows how fast such things as Chain of Command can fall apart so fast or in some cases how some fail to kept others up their chain in fully inform of their operations for the sake of Operational Security. I can think of half dozen incidents that one could use almost T2K setting. As an example during Operation Iraqi Freedom, during the drive into Iraq, when that Maintenance Company convoy made the wrong turn, well as has been pointed out the 2nd Marine Division has Germany tank in their organization. Well, what if, during movement element of a German unit got mis-oriented and took the wrong turn. The element leadership felt it was safer to stay with the XI US Corps than to travel back to link up with the III German Corps. There are several valid arguments why this thing or that thing happen. I know none of us worked for GDW so we can't answer how they saw things, but as person who use to play as player and GM, I like to see how other feel things went. Also remember there are several lurkers who don't post often if at all. The bottom line is most of us here to see what others are doing or thinking about doing. Or seeing the new what ifs and whys, to expand out own personal knowledge of what would of happen, based on your point of view. Okay getting off my damn soap box.... |
My theory of a general Pact counter offensive which pinned down the Germans and the rest of XI Corp just got a boost. In the 1st ed Adventure Handout: Escape from Kalisz, it states on the 11th of July:
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My guess is, based on the starting position of the 5th ID on the 19th of June, that there needs to be a significant rethink on where the various units were at the beginning. Right now I'm thinking that XI Corp may well have started along a line stretching from just west of Gdynia down to Chojnice with the German III Corp located between Chojnice and Stargard region. My thoughts are that Nato was actually pushed back to roughly the positions marked on the map in the 2.x yellow book... |
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