Well no-one is forcing you to interact with that page. No downside that I can see.

Just chiming in to say I'm still cautiously optimistic and hope it brings in a new group of players interested in the setting. Digging the new art too :)

Well at least she let me back on when I published the fanzine and pointed out how unfair it was to kick off a canon writer and one who was trying to get material from other writers for more of the fanzine. And so far it’s been ok being back on there - got in contact with Joe Thomas for instance and he is open to more material for the 3rd volume of the fanzine.

And the Facebook group I moderate definitely is as apolitical as it can be. I pointed that out recently and pointedly - as long as it’s Twilight 2000 related all discussion and viewpoints are welcome. Which is a big difference from the other FB page that literally kicked people off for having conservative viewpoints on their personal FB pages even if they never mentioned it on the T2K FB page. Which doesn’t say we haven’t had a few rough spots of our own.

It’s one reason so many have come to our FB page. And I always mention this forum as a place to go as well and that Paul’s page is a great source of info.

One thing I am happy about is that the 4th edition writers are very open to new material for the current editions being published either at drivethrurpg thru Marc or on their own forum they will be establishing. Ie they are saying that now that 4th edition is out that you can still publish new work on the earlier editions if you wish.

well the number of people who have been driven away by her is considerable - almost all of them have joined our FB page - and they are definitely not bigoted wankers from what I am seeing - they have made our FB page a very going concern with actual free dialogue where you dont have to worry about every utterance being politically correct or getting banned

but again we keep it to T2K - thats why I recently left the main FB Babylon 5 page - it was turning into a discussion on current politics instead of what it was supposed to be about - thats why I am glad the 4th edition is sticking to the old timeline in the main - i.e. with luck it wont get itself mired in today's politics and cancel culture in any way since those didnt exist back in 1995-96

I am interested by the way to see if they will keep New America - it was a focal point of V1 but not really mentioned that much in V2.2 - almost as if the writers began to realize that it really didnt make sense to have some vague organized conspiracy movement like that when they started on the second edition

Be interesting to see how they handle it or if instead they may have various separatist organizations spring up throughout the world like the German one mentioned in Going Home

License to Bigot
 

During the height of the BLM protests in the wake of the George Floyd killing, someone on the the alternative FB T2k fan page posted a meme of a kneeling British soldier firing an SLR with the caption, "This is how you take a knee."

If that's the kind of "a-political free speech" that the FB GP page welcomes, then again, I can see why Free League is staying away. At the very least, that post and the lack of admin response to said drove this contributor away.

Back to T2k, though, I think New America is the bad guy du jour for 2020. Back in the 1980s, it might have seemed like something out of left field, but with the proliferation of anti-gov't and alt-right (read: white supremacist) militias in the U.S. nowadays, New America seems more realistic than ever. If it isn't featured in v4, it might be because it hits too close to home.

I've never been super interested in the US/'back home' side of T2K, but I hope they lean into this. This has always been just below the surface in the US, so grappling with that content within the structure of a game could be really useful and meaningful.

Actually that post is gone - and both of us know who posted it - cough cough Legbreaker cough cough - and that led to the direct "its either about T2K or the post is gone" edict - so come back if you feel like it - have been making sure I am on there more and that the moderators are more engaged

Actually I think if anything an organized New America needs to be gone - i.e. there is no way that there will be a single anti-govt organization that does what NA does - for one those groups tend to not be ones that cooperate with each other - now several different groups here and there - some pro-left, some pro-right, some criminal gangs, some just good old fashioned "screw the govt I aint paying taxes or sending my food anywhere but here" groups - makes a lot more sense

Think more the World War Z situation (from the book not the movie) - they mentioned multiple breakaways here and there - none of them were coordinated but they were major pains in the butt to getting the country back together (there were mentions to a criminal gang in Chicago and a breakaway group in South Dakota that required tanks and Bradleys to put them down)

so you have a leftist group here, a rightist group there, organized criminal gangs here (i.e. think NYC Armies of the Night situation in Manhattan) but with little coordination between them

and frankly the whole New America philosophy was complete BS - I have never ever heard anything like that here in the US preached by any rightist or for that matter leftist group

Also I hope they are smart enough to not slavishly say they need to obey the Twilight 2300AD future - especially considering its not GDW anymore controlled.

Things like leaving Mexico occupying a big part of the Southwest and ignoring the simple fact that a lot of the area they occupied is dependent on water from the north - i.e. how they end up staying there with no water supplies at all is not logical. I could see possibly them occupying areas like San Diego or possibly southern AZ or Texas because the water situation is different - but LA as a thriving metropolis when almost all their water comes from sources under US control (and the US hates the Mexican occupation) - nope.

So with luck they can fix some of the obvious issues of the old editions since they wont have that whole "tied to the timeline of 2300AD" that GDW had.

Ignoring It Doesn't Mean It's Not There
 

Thanks for removing the offending post. I didn't want to name names.

Unfortunately, that's not true. Both Richard Spenser (one time leader/spokesperson of the Alt-right movement) and Jared Taylor (founder of American Renaissance) call for a "White Homeland" within the borders of what is currently the U.S.A. Both are pals with former KKK leader David Duke. Neither are shy about any of this either. That's just two, relatively "moderate", white supremacists representing fairly large groups. There are lots of smaller, more extreme white supremacist groups (Atomwaffen Division, for example) out there as well. Have you heard about Accelerationists? They want to try to trigger a race war that will lead to a breakdown of the American state after which they can form their dream of a white homeland. All it takes is one charismatic figurehead to bring all of these groups together, either by force of personality or just force (like the SS destroying the SA) and you've got yourself a New America.

If you're interested in the topic, you might want to watch Alt-right: Day of Rage on Netflix. It examines both the Alt-right and Antifa movements and profiles a couple of its leaders (two Alt-right, one Antifa). It definitely leans left, but it gives the right ample voice. If you weren't aware of the Alt-right's complete platform, this doc will learn you.

Oh I know about the alt-right guys - the issue is that those groups really dont gell together - you need a leader to bring them together - also keep in mind 1996 timeframe you dont have twitter, you have a very rudimentary internet, you dont have a lot of what is needed today that lets groups like that and the antifa coordinate any kind of nation wide event

Especially if the game keeps the breakdown of communications going that was a feature of the situation in the US - i.e. its one thing if you can coordinate and communicate - its another given after the TDM that you were lucky if you could coordinate with the next county over let alone nationwide

Now lots of groups like that sprouting up and being a handful en masse - that works and gives GM's a lot more freedom to create - i.e. its not "here we go again with the latest NA cell" - instead its more like "ok what group of wack jobs can I have the players run into this time"

Probable, maybe. Plausible, definitely.
 

That's a good point. Consider, however, that 20th century fascists were able to do it pre-internet. Franco in Spain managed to unite monarchists, Catholics, and various other right-wing groups in 1930s spain. Mussolini too, in Italy.

Again, a fair point. By the same token, a breakdown in nat'l comms also makes it difficult for the gov't to effectively counter-message extremist propaganda. Also, the FBI's probably going to have its hands full trying to ferret out pro-Soviet spies, agitators, etc. to have the resources to focus on right wing organizations, however extreme.

True. I think either approach is fine. However, if one wants a big bad instead of lots of similar little bads, New America is a reasonable way to do it.

FYI what I really hope is that they really do a trial run of the timeline and the game past as many veterans as they can - and by that I mean hard core players, GM's, module/sourcebook writers - both official and unofficial, both past and present. Add in a sprinkling of newbies or rookies as well as they need to bring more than just a bunch of guys who have been around since 1984 onboard if they want to make the game long term viable.

Get a decent amount of input and replies and then make sure it works as much as it can - there will never be perfect game but they can do what it takes so that its not like New Coke or the last two Star Wars movies where they ended up pissing off the real lovers of the product in the process of trying to redo something that had been out there a while.

And make sure that they know the time period - i.e. all you dont want is a writer in his 20's who has no idea what the 90's were like past old reruns of Friends and Seinfeld, especially the level of tech.

For a lot of young people the idea that the internet was dial up and slow as hell, that cell phones were almost non-existent and bulky as hell and that computers were nothing like today's are is beyond their comprehension. Showed my kids what computer graphics were like in the 90's and they literally couldnt believe we played those games for instance. Let alone the concept of a floppy disk.

I posted this on the Free League Twilight 2000 Facebook page a month ago...

My three cents...
(I’m a long time player and fan of Twilight 2000 who always uses the V.1 history.)
1. Make sure you have a very good and detailed vehicle rule set that handles vastly different vehicles and their armor. An M1 Abrams will not be penetrated by a M16 no matter how good the die roles. The armor levels between a HUMVEE and a T-80 with reactive armor are not really comparable. And the top of a tank is tissue paper compared to their frontal armor. Furthermore mechanics should exist that in some way replicate the difference between an M1A2 with A functional CITV and an M1A1. So many games ignore, downplay or over simplify vehicles, but every T2K group I’ve heard about and run with lived by their vehicles.

2. This is an alternate history your doing...think of the implications of that as you write the setting and choose gear. You’ll have (using V.2 T2K) about 4 years of peace to cover that will not be our post-Cold War history. What about the EU? The US 1992 election? Quebec referendum of 1995? So many things will quickly change if the Soviet Union does not fall and the world has a renewed even more tense Cold”er” War.

3. Do Not inject current political opinions or biases. There is no 9/11, endless war on Terror, Second Bush, Obama, Trump or Coronavirus. It’s more War Games, Red Dawn, Rocky IV, and Top Gun but with slightly better Tech and perhaps a bit of exhaustion. (I could see a real feeling of “We got so close to winning and now this.” taking hold in the West.) America is still leader of the Free World. There’s still a Third World. And given the level of repression the Soviets will need to implement to stop their collapse and hold onto Eastern Europe, they most definitely will be seen as the “Evil Empire.”

Do these well and you will have an excellent and interesting setting.
That’s of course just my humble opinion. Thanks.
P.S. Please do a Tales of the Loop non-canon crossover Supplement.

I think #3 is the most relevant recently.

Benjamin

Hmm, a crossover with Tales From The Loop... there's an interesting idea.
Ideas, ideas...

If you don't mind a little bit of "weird science" in your games you could have the Loop in Sweden connect with the Loop in America, perhaps like a wormhole from Stargate.
The GM would have to decide what impact that has on the game world obviously, for me, I'd have the Loops require massive amounts of power to achieve the wormhole. There'd be a lot of time and effort spent rebuilding the power generation & distribution network in both countries to allow the Loops to have enough energy to create a wormhole... and after that, the North American personnel can have another chance at "Going Home".

FYI guys notice the he also doesnt have this forum in the list of places he refers to in his press releases as well as my FB group.

When I sent him email he seemed unaware of this forum - and my facebook group is a private group that you have to be invited to. Which probably explains why they werent mentioned and not any post that was on it.

Happy Thanksgiving Day Massacre!
 

Alpha PDF's are available to KS backers today. Check your e-mails and download away!

-

Anyone interested in a test game on RPOL?

Downloaded the files and production quality looks really good.

I'm liking the artwork alot.

Totally agree

UK is gets Sealanded... Somehow. Among other things. People are not happy.

Sealanded? Do you mean Sealioned?

Indeed. Bloody autocorrect.

It's funny, because there is a place called Sealand off the British coast...

So the UK sends everything basically to fight and doesnt even leave the Territorial units behind? What the heck? That makes basically no sense at all - there is no way the UK commits everything and basically leaves themsevles bare naked against the Soviets - and reading Reset this isnt just the 5th that gets destroyed - its basically most of NATO

Three Polish Corps, one UK, one US, one German, one Netherlands, one Belgian - ALL of them get overrun and are "running for the woods"? What the heck - so basically the Soviets win the war and NATO is finished? This in a war with the active participation on the NATO side of multiple former Warsaw Pact nations and France?

So we are to believe the Soviets destroy EIGHT FULL CORPS????

Sorry when exactly did the Soviet Army become an unstoppable juggernaut against basically the entire armies of Western Europe, the US, and Central and Eastern Europe?

And what happened to all the reinforcements that were being sent - that many men would have rebuilt back to full strength every unit in the US Army that got deployed to Europe- are they saying that ALL OF THEM died on the way over?

Eight full Corps destroyed by the Soviets in RESET? By what - did the Soviets somehow ally with HG Wells Martians? Invent tank armor that cannot be penetrated by any modern weapon? This isnt two Corps taking it on the chin, one running for its life and another cut off, with most of it holding on in Poland while the 5th gets wiped out.

This is the heart of NATO wiped out and the survivors running for the hills. Basically they have the Soviets winning the war.

Sorry but if this is their so called history I will stick with V1 and V2.2.

and I would like to actually give my honest real opinions of the back story, the war, the end of the war and the Soviets somehow being an unbeatable force but I would have to violate every forum guideline to give an honest real opinion

So instead

IT SUCKS

Oh and no mention of Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc.. - i.e. were they all too busy doing something else for three years?

And the French join in the fun, get nuked like crazy and dont retaliate??? Sure what the hell its not like they care about Paris and Northern France

and ignoring the background and details and timeline can be done - but then it makes 4th edition COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY WORTHLESS for those who want to do a campaign who arent famliar with the V1 and V2.2

This is game writing 101 they are ignoring - its fine and dandy if you want to write a game that you play for a couple of nights and move on - but sucks big time if you want to do a campaign - and frankly this spits in the face of the long time players of this game

Sorry - as I said to you - this just hurts

Olefin, man... deep breath in, deep breath out...

Jason, your closest to Olefin. You may need to scoot over there and check his blood pressure. I'm worried about him.

So what I'm hearing here is that the V4 timeline was written by Russian internet trolls.

Oh I havent yet begun to fight this abomination - and frankly I would agree with you on the Russian internet trolls - or Soviet fanboys

From what I have read of the 4th ed timeline it was written by an Antifa fanboy who gets off to images of AOC.

In it the US President is a warmongering idiot. The Brits are somehow ineffective, and the Russians are superhuman.

Lets not get into how IRL the Russians and the Chinese have too much spilt blood between them to ever ally again.

All in all it's ham fisted leftist BS.

You're actually not that far off...

I'm just going to pretend this never happened, and keep playing 1e Twilight 2000.

Maybe this spring I'll put together a T2k on Discord or Roll20.

But I won't be playing this.

The only possible way London could justify having most of the TA deploy is if they recreated the Home Guard or something equally as mad to take over defense at home. Which again, is not their job, as it's the TA's job to conduct home defense. Even then, at least SOME (call it at least 25% and more probably 30%) of the TA would have to remain at home so as to properly train said units and war replacements.

As for the eight Corps', that's anywhere from 240,000 men to 400,000 men (if I knew the exact corps', I could probably track down the exact numbers). Those losses would be among the bloodiest battles in history, and that's just NATO casualties. If upwards of 400,000 NATO lost their lives, I'd hate to see Soviet casualties. They almost certainly are in much excess of NATO.

From the Alpha, chapter "World at War", UK segment:
"EXCERPT"

They seem to have sent all Territorial Forces and relaunched the Home Guard to fill that role. And it seems that the last remnants of them charged into the Soviet MGs at Trafalgar Square.

Huh, so my guess was right. That is... damn odd. I can get some being sent, at least as volunteers or drafts to increase manpower during the late part of the war, but the entire thing? And reviving the Home Guard (a group that, in all honesty, would have not proven too effective had the Germans ever invaded) to replace them? Madness I say! Sheer bloody madness!