Somewhere I have a picture of something similar done for a Japanese officer with a Nambu pistol and a samurai sword.

And there is a pic floating the web that has a British Heavy Cavalry Saber, brazed to a Webley revolver...

Its such a bad idea, and it seems that every armory sooner or later gets this wild hair.......

Its as silly an idea as the OSS glove with a single-shot pistol riveted to the back, "Why no Mr. Donovan, sir, no Nazi will every suspect you want to shot him!"

You know that whole escapade as always left me amused:

Here you have US soldiers in a far off land fighting die-hard muslim insurgents and it is found that their 9mm(ish) pistols are not up to the job, so they bring back a .45 pistol.
Fast forward a hundred years and here you have US soldiers in a far off land...

What is they say about learning from history?

:)

On a earlier post about fuel tanks and tank drivers, just think of the M1 driver: fuel tank to the left, fuel tank to the right, a hatch that won't open with NV installed, a heater that always leaks a few inches behind his head to the left, and a halon nozzle a few inches behind his head to the right.

That the US military doesn't read its own history? LOL!

You can almost see some staff weenie telling the general all about how cool the 9mm is and how everybody else in NATO is using it...

Makes you wish that ole George Patton was there to say "It takes a .45 to knock the $#&(%^(&@%^@@^%$^@ down for good!"

Could be worse, at least he doesn't have 30 rounds of main gun on either side...

I always thought that the US going to the 9mm as something of an unofficial apology for forcing the 7.62 round down NATO's throat only to dump it ourselves a few years later.

And then forcing the 5.56mm NATO round down NATO's throats...

5.56 isn't a bad round, it's just not the best that could have been chosen.... :(

Well and succinctly put.

heck 5.56mm was a great round...
...till we let NATO mess with it.

The M193 round might have been great before the common use of body armour by potential foes but against body armour it just doesn't cut it.
NATO (including the US) wanted something more effective against personal armour, they should have gone for something else but the US had already forced the 5.56mm calibre onto everybody else so that was what they had to work with.
Would not have been an issue if they'd hadn't swallowed the bullshit about micro-calibre high-speed projectiles.

And as the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are discovering, 5.56 may allow for a weapon with low recoil and give the soldier the ability to carry a lot of ammo...but the trade off is a round that just doesn't have the umph for a 800-meter shot and simply is not as lethal as you would like.

Sooooo...

You see a lot of the ole M-14s being pulled out of storage, go through depot maintenance and then get reissued ot units pulling AK-47s out of the captured weapons piles and used.

I've been watching the development of the 6.8mm round for the last few years and I think they may be on to something here, its light weight but has enhanced hitting power, is this what will be replacing the ole 5.56?

my vote for the worst weapon ever? imagine taking a motor scooter ripping the seat off and in place of a seat mount a recoilless rifle. the french call this thing the "ACMA Troupes Aeról Portées Mle. 56."

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006...empowered.html

though i guess that 75MM gun might get you through a traffic jam a little easier.

Actually it's not as bad as it sounds. Most of the sites that report on this Vespa with a BFG fail to mention that although the weapon could be fired while mounted, there's no aiming device fitted to allow it. The intent was to use the scooter to rapidly move the M20 recoilless rifle from place to place where it would be removed from the scooter, set on it's tripod and fired in the normal manner.
The scooter is meant only to transport the weapon and it's tripod while a second scooter would carry extra ammo.

i for one would love to see the reaction if someone were dumb enough to fire it while rideing it...
the recoill, the lack of padding between the gun and the balls, the look on the drivers face... priceless.:D

Vespa fav
 

The French have like a gazillion Vespa riding kids - they could cut training time to a bare minimum.Those guys are crazy fearless in traffic on their scooters.Although not as mad as Italian scooter kids. They are kamikaze like to my Norwegian traffic mentality.

Reminds me of the Belgian Army back in 1914; their infantry would transport their machineguns via light carts, hauled by dogs.

Ummm, it's a recoiless rifle....
Not saying it would be a good idea to fire in the transport position though.

Lee,

I posted in the Images thread a chart showing the Cubans currently transport Soviet-designed machineguns using a bicycle to tow the wheeled carriage. You'd certainly see that in T2K!

Tony

Something Unusual
 

I know the following weapon is historically much earlier than the weapons discussed in this thread. Seeing that one of the regimental guidon's for Custer's 7th Cavalry was sold at auction, I thought it might be worthwhile to contemplate the poor grunts at Little Big Horn who were stuck with the Springfield Model 1873.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1873

By all accounts, the Souix and others had a motley assortment of weapons from tradional bow,arrow, and lance to Winchester and Henry repeating rifles.

Once again the war department wanted to save money by issuing a poor substitute to US soldiers.

Just my two cents worth!! :p

Mike

the reason Custer's men lasted as long as they did was because that single shot rifle everyone loves to malign was excellent for long range where as the pistol caliber repeating rifles sucked at the ranges that battle was mostly fought at. the thing that killed Custer was numbers.

True, to an extent. In 1983 a range fire burned off most of the ground cover on the Custer-Reno-Benteen battlefields this allowed the first archaeological study of the battlefield and it was released in the book "Archaelology, History and Custer's Last Battle". Its an intresting study in that they used modern police techniques to match bullets and casings to specific firearms and used this to trace troop/indian movements.

While Custer's battalion was initially able to hold off its attackers by using their range advantage, the Indians were able to use the terrain to get close enough to use the real advantage of the Henry/Winchester rifles, i.e. its rapid range fire that allowede them to overwhelm the troopers, unit by unit and cause the disintegration of the 7th Cavalry's cohesion, this allowed the Indians to get to within hand-to-hand range and swamp the remaining troopers.

Ah well. I reckon Custer seriously had it coming. Indigenous people FTW!

Plus, lets not forget that Custer said that he did not want the fancy new invention by a Dr Richard Gatling, that played a huge advantage in lack of useful defence systems.

And, of course, one should never forget the misconduct of Major Reno and Captain Benteen, who disobeyed orders to rejoin the Custer Battalion until it was far too late.

Would their presence have prevented the Last Stand? It's one of historys what ifs...but their actions on that field of battle merited a courts-martial and a firing squad!

Only an extreme lack of real research into the battle nor actually seeing the battlefield can one come to that conclusion.
The accusations of Misconduct came from the 'Custer clique' of the regiment the ones overly loyal to him.

You need to really research the tactics and abilities of cavalry of the time, what it takes to move a pack train of 147 mules.
To learn what it takes to rally and reorganise a shattered command with wounded, exhausted and demoralised troops which if they even still had horses found them to be exhausted as well after being routed and pursued by many hundreds of hostiles for miles, cross the Rosebud river and climb 100 foot bluffs.

There was no way Reno could get moving fast enough to join Custer again, Benteen arrived at Renos shattered command after Custer was already fighting, they didn't even have the pack train yet.
Benteen Left a slowly reorganising Reno to join Custer before the Pack train even arrived their position and as far as Benteen made it was to Cpt.Weir at Wiers point under indian contact where they could only watch Custers command getting wiped out a few miles away.
The pack train would never have arrived in time in any place.

Custer and his command was killed by Custers over ambitious flamboyant repeated insistence his 7th cavalry could take on anything they met and his repeated ignorance of intel provided by his scouts.
It was the 'Custer luck' that got him through some of his battles in the Civil war as it was.

Gatlings would never made a difference as they would have been stuck with the pack train, as they are too cumbersome and heavy to keep up with the rest of the command and Custer favored speed and shock effect.
The best the Gatlings would have done in the battle had they been taken is helped Reno and Benteen in their defensive position.

The only thing that would have made some kind of difference in this battle would be the 2nd Cavalry that Custer refused to take along, he insisted at the time his 7th cavalry could beat anything they met.

Custer attacked the combined Indian villages before he even had an idea of what and the numbers he faced.

The inquiry called on Reno's insistence found Reno and Benteen innocent.
The timeline of the battle given by the Indians and the current battlefield forensic evidence confirms that there was no way Benteen and Reno could have arrived in time to help Custer and even if they had done so they would all have died as well.
It was Custer and his very bad decisions that killed Custer and his command.

Gamer,

So what happened is best described by another phrase that closely rhymes with "Custer luck".

On a more serious note, the following article goes into the various elements of the battle in depth, including examining the evidence of jammed cartridges, faulty intelligence that misled Custer, how many repeating weapons the Indians really had and how they stacked up to the Springfield, and so on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...Little_Bighorn

Tony

[QUOTE=Gamer;28294]Only an extreme lack of real research into the battle nor actually seeing the battlefield can one come to that conclusion.
The accusations of Misconduct came from the 'Custer clique' of the regiment the ones overly loyal to him.[QUOTE]

Well now, let me see...I took part in some of the digging on the Battlefield in the 1983 archeological survey. I've toured the various sites three times in the last 7 years. And I have a personal intrest in the battle as well, one of my ancestors, Captain George W.M. Yates. commanding Company F died with the Custer Battalion. So yes, I have researched the battle and the movements leading up to it in some detail.

I have never considered myself a fan of GAC, his orders leading up to that day certainly were not made with the best of judgement. But that does not excuse the misconduct of Reno and Benteen. Reno's conduct during his attack are, by themselves, sufficient grounds to cashier him from the Army. His orders were to take his battalion and attack the valley villages, driving the Indians up the Little Big Horn Valley. When he saw the true extent of the villages, he halted his command and formed a skirmish line across the prairie.

Indian testimony confirms the utter surprise of Reno's attack and their own concerns with escaping. That's right, the Indians stated that they were ready to run. That is until Reno halted his command and give the Indian chiefs time to rally their warriors and launch their own counterattack. Up to this moment in time, the Indians were not aware of Custer's battalion.

A brisk fire took place until a group of Indians were moving down a gully, threatening his horses. Reno pulled Company G from his line and sent them towards the river, leaving his skirmish line spread too thinly to be effective. He then moved his men back to the woods where his horses were sheltered. Here his men rallied and kept up a stubborn fire that kept the Indians at bay.

By about 330pm, Reno had lost several killed and wounded, but was holding his position. It is at this moment that he made the decision to fall back towards the bluffs. Rather than using a bugle call, he called out his order, resulting in that some of his men heard the order and others did not. In this mass of confusion, the firing of his men slackened enough to allow the Indians to attack. It was at this moment that Bloody Knife, one of Custer's scouts, was shot in the head sending brains and blood splattering into Reno's face.

Reno panicked. He ordered his men to dismount and then to remount. He then spurred his horse and took off for the river bluffs. He never issued an order to retreat, he simply ran. Reno's battalion broke and it became a every an for himself rout.

The exact distance of the rout runs about a half mile to a full mile, depending on which crossing was used by the troops. In the panic, some forty or so of Reno's men were left behind, on foot. Most of them were able to seek cover in the woods, but several were killed in the aftermath.

To add insult to injury, Major Reno was the first man up the bluff to the sight that became the Reno-Benteen Defense Site. When Dr. Porter, an acting surgeon, approached the gallant major and mentioned that the men were badly demoralized by the rout. Reno is reputed to have snapped back "That was a cavalry charge, sir!" It took less than half an hour, and Reno was out of the fight.

As for Captain Benteen...he had received orders prior to the launch of Reno's attack to scout a secondary valley to the south and block the escape of any Indians in that direction. Testimony of the officers and men of his command confirm that Benteen thought this was little more than a wild goose chase and he broke off his "scout" and followed well behind the Custer/Reno Battalions and the pack train. Shortly after starting this march, Benteen called for a halt. During this period, his men heard the sound of distant firing (most likely from Reno's Valley Fight), but Benteen, in opposition to his officers desire to move to the sound of the guns, stayed put. After about twenty minutes, he remounted his command moved at a slow trot down the trail.

Benteen's Battalion had moved perhaps three miles when they met Custer's courier, a Sgt Kanipe, who carried the order to the Pack Train to move up and join with the Custer Battalion. Benteen refused to hurry his command and after moving another mile up the trail, halted to water his horses. It was at this point that Pvt John Martin, Custer's orderly arrived with what is known as Custer's Last Order "Benteen. Come On. Big Village. Be Quick. Bring Packs. W.W. Cooke. P. Bring Pacs." Benteen then took the time to discuss the order with his officers until a heavier burst of firing could be heard. This took place at about 3:30pm.

Benteen then galloped his command up the eastern side of the LBHR and arrived at the bluffs in time to witness the rout of Reno's Battalion from the valley floor. Benteen then led his command around the bluffs to where Reno's command was gathering. At this point, Major Reno rode out to meet Benteen and stated "For God's sake, Benteen, halt your command and help me! I've lost half of my men!"

Benteen showed Reno the order from Custer. According to the military regulations in effect at that time, the burden of carrying out the order transferred itself to Reno. For his part, Reno ignored the order.

During this time, both officers were able to hear the unmistakable sound of heavy fighting coming from from the direction that Custer had taken. Many of the other officer's present suggested moving up to rejoin Custer. Reno replied that ammo was low, which, according to the testimony of these officers, was not true, plenty of ammo was available.

Captain Thomas Weir, commanding Company D, lost patience with Reno and requested that he be allowed to scout downstream. Reno refused and a heated argument took place. Wier then blatantly disobeyed orders and rode off to the north, followed by Company D. They rode about a mile north to a promontory now known as Weir Point. The view north was obscured by dust and smoke, but Indians could be observed riding around a hill and firing at objects in the area now known as Custer Hill. Weir also observed a group of Indians advancing towards him and he led his company to more defensible ground.

Reno dispatched a courier to inform Weir that the rest of the command would soon follow and ordered the captain to open communications with Custer. By this time, it was too late, the firing had mostly ceased and Weir could observe most of the Indians riding towards Weir Point.

Most of the Reno/Benteen battalions had moved up to Weir Point when the advance of the Indains was sighted and an impromptu retreat ensued as the troopers rode back to their initial defense position.

By 7pm, seven companies, representing Reno's Battalion, Benteen's Battalion and the Pack Train and its escort were beseiged at the Reno-Benteen Defense Site.

The conduct of Major Reno during this time has been a matter of controversy. Many officers and men stated that Reno had hidden himself in a protected position until shortly before dawn. Other witnesses claimed that Reno gave the apperance of being drunk. Reno was also overheard suggesting to Benteen that the mounted portion of the command and those wounded able to ride should mount up and depart the hill under cover of darkness. Those wounded too badly to ride were to be left behind. To the enternal credit of Benteen, he rejected this plan. It should be noted that the defense of the hilltop was lead by Benteen who displayed great courage under fire. Reno, apparently relinquished command to Benteen.

So who is to blame for the loss of five companies of US Cavalry at the Little Big Horn?

There is no doubt that Custer misread the strength of the Indians in the Little Big Horn Valley. His decision to split the regiment into three tactical battalions has often been blasted ever since. But it does not take a military genius to understand what Custer had planned. Plenty of evidence exists to support a strategy that was nothing less than brilliant, especially given the terrain.

Major Reno was ordered to move to the floor of the LBHV and charge the Indian village. Only Reno has stated that he was told by GAC that he would be supported by the whole outfit. Reno has also stated that he kept looking for any sign of reinforcement, which never appear.

Custer's movements after splitting off from Reno confirm that Custer never had any intention of following Reno to the Valley floor. Reno was part diversion, part strike force. It must be remembered that the Indians themselves were not aware of the Custer's Battalion until sometime after Reno's Attack. Custer was simply following his Civil War tactics of executing a frontal attack with one detachement while moving one or more detachements to attack from the flank or rear.

Reno's charge did cause great chaos among the unsuspecting Indians, this should have prevented them from mounting a defense or launching a counterattack. Then elements of Custer's Battalion would have descended from the bluffs and strike the villages from several locations. This would force the Indians to flee to the south, into Benteen's Battalion and then later into the hands of Crook's Column.

No less a personage than Chief Gall has stated that when Reno's troops launched their attack, the Indians were more concerned with tearing down what they could of their villages and running away.

So what went wrong?

Reno and Benteen went to their deathbeds swearing that Custer disobeyed the orders of General Terry and tried to steal all of the glory for himself. Studying the movements of the three Battalions shows that there was a plan, in spite of the Reno/Benteen claims and that it was a good plan with every right to expect sucess. Remember, that during the entire history of the Indian Wars up to this point, whenever Indians were attacked in their villages by the Army, in every case, the Indians took what they could and fled the scene.

But Reno's decision to not continue his charge, his decision to halt and go on the defense, his panic-stricken decision to flee that defense line allowed the Indians time to regroup and counterattack his command and then Custer's command. For this alone, he deserved to be courts-martialed and shot. The Reno Inquiry that took place was little more than a white-wash intended to protect the reputations of the Army, and that of the surviving officers. Custer had only his wife to speak up for him. The rest of Custer's adherents lay dead with him.

Wow, Dragoon, thanks for the info/history lesson. I did a book report of the Little Big Horn, but that was 20+ years ago. All I can remember is Custer didn't believe his scouts estimates of the enemy.