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-   -   OT: Putin's War in Ukraine (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6627)

kato13 04-21-2022 05:17 AM

I agree they deserve it and more, but something like that could trigger an emotional response which leads to article 5, which leads to ???.

kcdusk 04-21-2022 05:23 AM

It might be we have painted ourselves into a corner. And the reason we can't find a solution, now, today. Is because the time for a solution to todays problems was 1, 3, 10 years ago. It could be the time to stand up to a bully was years ago, and we've missed our window.

Jason 04-22-2022 01:40 PM

As part of U.S. next $800 million in military aid to Ukraine we are including 200 M113's.

Battle taxis back in action.

Not really fit for front-line service in 2022, but probably usefull for re-supply and moving troops behind, but near the front lines.

Raellus 04-22-2022 03:23 PM

Next Batch
 
More military aid for Ukraine. Major highlights include:

CAESAR 155m SPAAGs (France)
T-72 tanks (Poland)
M84 tanks (Slovenia)
PzH2000 SPAAGs (Germany)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...s-could-follow

I kind of get it, but it still strikes me as strange how sending combat aircraft somehow "crosses a line" (towards escalation), considering how much killing power the above list represents (to say nothing of the thousands of Javelins, NLAWs, Matadors, MANPADS, etc. that the West has already sent Ukraine).

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Tegyrius 04-22-2022 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 91710)
I kind of get it, but it still strikes me as strange how sending combat aircraft somehow "crosses a line" (towards escalation), considering how much killing power the above list represents (to say nothing of the thousands of Javelins, NLAWs, Matadors, MANPADS, etc. that the West has already sent Ukraine).

Kind of hard for a Javelin to conduct deep strikes in Russian territory against strategic targets. I think that's one of the concerns.

- C.

Spartan-117 04-22-2022 07:01 PM

Also, 72 more M777 tubes. With the previous 18, that's 5 full artillery battalions. Once delivered, Ukraine will be the 2nd largest user of 155mm M777 ultra light weight howitzers in the world.

Targan 04-23-2022 02:53 AM

Interesting article.

What this old Russian tank tells us about the invasion of Ukraine

pmulcahy11b 04-23-2022 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targan (Post 91713)

Well, it does seem to partially explain why Russian supply lines seem to be chronically overextended.

pmulcahy11b 04-23-2022 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 91691)
Ukraine's operational MiG-29 fleet has grown, but NOT because its received replacement aircraft.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...red-to-ukraine

Do you think NATO is covertly sending whole aircraft to Ukraine, but only publicly saying that they're sending spare parts?

-

That may be a politically smarter way to send the Ukrainians aircraft...now if they could put some Warthogs and ammo on those trains...

Raellus 04-23-2022 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tegyrius (Post 91711)
Kind of hard for a Javelin to conduct deep strikes in Russian territory against strategic targets. I think that's one of the concerns.

Yeah, I get that, but, at this point (Mariupol falling any day now), giving the UAF parts to increase its operational MiG-29 fleet and just giving them more MiG-29s seems like a distinction without difference. The net effect is more or less the same.

The MiG-29 is relatively short-legged; given Russia's advantages in the air, the UAF also has to operate their aircraft from the western margins of the country. As a result, they pose more of a symbolic threat to Russian territory than a practical one. And the donors could make it clear to Kiev that any aircraft are not to be used outside of Ukraine's borders.

Yes, Moscow will cite any aircraft transfer as an escalation but, realistically, what are they likely to do about it? Yes, they could do something rash but, again, at this point, unless the West is willing to essentially cede the eastern (industrial) third of Ukraine to Russia in perpetuity, I think the risk is worth it.

-

pmulcahy11b 04-23-2022 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 91720)

The MiG-29 is relatively short-legged; given Russia's advantages in the air, the UAF also has to operate their aircraft from the western margins of the country. As a result, they pose more of a symbolic threat to Russian territory than a practical one. And the donors could make it clear to Kiev that any aircraft are not to be used outside of Ukraine's borders.



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Maybe we should give them Su-27 "parts." They have over twice the operational range, and the Ukrainians did have a few of them until the war. Modify them to carry BLU-109s, and all that massed Russian armor turns into burning hulks after delivering a few of those.

What do you think happened to most of the Republican Guard's armor in OIF?

kato13 04-23-2022 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 91720)
distinction without difference.

International Law and diplomacy seems based on distinctions. France has not used the word "Genocide" as if they do so they are compelled to act. A prime minister utters a single word and they have to change policy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 91720)
The MiG-29 is relatively short-legged

It can reach Moscow. When thinking about this I was amazed I remembered Mathias Rust's name. Add to that the ending of Clancy's Debt of Honor. (A pilot who lost everything he cared about trying to strike a knife into the heart of the enemy).

If we were publicly saying "We gave them these planes" and the next day a "War crime"(from the perspective of the Russians happens) using said planes. They get as riled up as we were on 9/11, who knows what happens next.

kato13 04-23-2022 03:13 PM

Breaking

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato...-generals.html

Quote:

The Armed Forces of Ukraine have destroyed a command operations center of the 49th Combined Arms Army of the Russian Armed Forces, eliminating two enemy generals.
Speaking of hitting high priority targets. If this is true I believe Russia has lost as many generals in Ukraine as the US lost in the entire Vietnam conflict (11).

Targan 04-23-2022 07:42 PM

Outstanding!

Vespers War 04-24-2022 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b (Post 91721)
Maybe we should give them Su-27 "parts." They have over twice the operational range, and the Ukrainians did have a few of them until the war. Modify them to carry BLU-109s, and all that massed Russian armor turns into burning hulks after delivering a few of those.

What do you think happened to most of the Republican Guard's armor in OIF?

I don't think Ukraine currently has much need for bunker-busters (the BLU-109's role). If you meant the BLU-108 skeet dispenser, the 155mm artillery could produce a similar effect if provided with SMArt (Suchzünder Munition für die Artillerie 155) or BAE/Nexter BONUS shells, since each of those carry a pair of skeets in a 155mm shell. Australia, Germany, Greece, and Switzerland currently have SMArt while Finland, Norway, Sweden, France, and the United States have BONUS.

pmulcahy11b 04-25-2022 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vespers War (Post 91735)
If you meant the BLU-108 skeet dispenser,

Sorry about the mistake - BLU-108. It's just nastier and more "shock and awe" producing than an artillery barrage.

kato13 04-26-2022 01:11 PM

Germany to deliver 50 Gepard to Ukraine
 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...fence-military

Quote:

The German government has announced that it is to send a fleet of around 50 anti-aircraft systems to Ukraine, as it attempts to offset criticism that it has been too slow to provide military equipment to the war-torn country.

Christine Lambrecht, the defence minister, pledged about the Gepard self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, in a speech to the representatives of 40 countries at high-level defence talks hosted by the US air force at its Europe headquarters in Ramstein, south-west Germany.
Not sure if the Gepards have been consistently updated, but back when I paid a lot more attention to this stuff, I considered them the cream of the crop. I will have a lot of interest in the ad hoc units Ukraine will be forced to put together. Pulling this back to being on topic, the mish mash of equipment does have a very T2k feel to it.

Raellus 04-29-2022 12:30 PM

Swiss Please
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13 (Post 91747)
Not sure if the Gepards have been consistently updated, but back when I paid a lot more attention to this stuff, I considered them the cream of the crop. I will have a lot of interest in the ad hoc units Ukraine will be forced to put together. Pulling this back to being on topic, the mish mash of equipment does have a very T2k feel to it.

The Drive reported a couple of days ago that Switzerland has moved to stop the transfer of 35mm ammo for the Gepards, essentially rendering them very expensive decoys. I hope the Swiss change their minds.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...craft-vehicles

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Raellus 04-29-2022 12:31 PM

Battle Buggies
 
Have any of you ever used TOW-armed FAVs in your T2k?

Ukraine essentially is:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-russian-tanks

-

kato13 04-29-2022 12:42 PM

25 point summary of the last week. (Includes 10 maps)

https://twitter.com/JominiW/status/1519893783537721346

First map I have seen of the Azovstal Metallurgical Zone
https://twitter.com/JominiW/status/1519893793864101889

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FRe73C-X...name=4096x4096

kato13 04-29-2022 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 91763)
The Drive reported a couple of days ago that Switzerland has moved to stop the transfer of 35mm ammo for the Gepards, essentially rendering them very expensive decoys. I hope the Swiss change their minds.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...craft-vehicles

-

I have read that (perhaps lower tech) ammo can come from Poland and Turkey (and perhaps Norway).

https://www.army-technology.com/cont...tion/mesko-sa/
Mesko produces 35x228mm which wiki says the Gepard uses. I have not found the Turkish manufacturer but they are 35mm users and I can see them producing locally.

shrike6 04-29-2022 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13 (Post 91766)
I have read that (perhaps lower tech) ammo can come from Poland and Turkey (and perhaps Norway).

https://www.army-technology.com/cont...tion/mesko-sa/
Mesko produces 35x228mm which wiki says the Gepard uses. I have not found the Turkish manufacturer but they are 35mm users and I can see them producing locally.

They might be restricted as well. I'm betting both Poland and Turkey have a licence to produce that ammo. It may restrict who they can sale to as well.

kato13 04-29-2022 02:07 PM

Brazil may be the way around it.

Ammo problem solved? Brazil wants to equip German Gepard tanks for Ukraine with 300,000 rounds

https://www-businessinsider-de.trans...n&_x_tr_pto=sc

Also in reading the press related to this they keep referring to "Swiss Made" rounds rather than "Swiss Licensed" rounds. I know reporters don't pay attention to details anymore, but that is a huge difference if that is the case.

shrike6 04-29-2022 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13 (Post 91766)
I have read that (perhaps lower tech) ammo can come from Poland and Turkey (and perhaps Norway).

https://www.army-technology.com/cont...tion/mesko-sa/
Mesko produces 35x228mm which wiki says the Gepard uses. I have not found the Turkish manufacturer but they are 35mm users and I can see them producing locally.

I'm betting both Poland and Turkey have a licence to produce that ammo. It may restrict who they can sale to as well.

chico20854 04-29-2022 02:14 PM

One aspect I will be interested to read about in years to come (if/when it is declassified!) will be what is going on with the various fires in Russia over the last week. The chemical plant that produces most of Russia's missile propellant, two military research and development centers, various ammo and fuel dumps close to the Ukrainian border... Russia certainly has underinvested in maintenance and modernization of its facilities, resulting in a great many more fires on a day to day basis than we are used to, but this certainly looks like the work of Ukrainian special operations forces or intelligence agency paramilitaries.

I'll have the popcorn ready!

Fallenkezef 04-29-2022 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chico20854 (Post 91770)
One aspect I will be interested to read about in years to come (if/when it is declassified!) will be what is going on with the various fires in Russia over the last week. The chemical plant that produces most of Russia's missile propellant, two military research and development centers, various ammo and fuel dumps close to the Ukrainian border... Russia certainly has underinvested in maintenance and modernization of its facilities, resulting in a great many more fires on a day to day basis than we are used to, but this certainly looks like the work of Ukrainian special operations forces or intelligence agency paramilitaries.

I'll have the popcorn ready!

Or maybe a false flag to justify a state of war to be announced at the big May Moscow parade?

shrike6 04-29-2022 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13 (Post 91766)
I have read that (perhaps lower tech) ammo can come from Poland and Turkey (and perhaps Norway).

https://www.army-technology.com/cont...tion/mesko-sa/
Mesko produces 35x228mm which wiki says the Gepard uses. I have not found the Turkish manufacturer but they are 35mm users and I can see them producing locally.

MKE makes the barrels they also happen to make 35mm rounds in their ammunition division.

https://www.mkeusa.com/en-US/catalog...0-he-i/64/2130

Spartan-117 04-29-2022 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrike6 (Post 91777)
MKE makes the barrels they also happen to make 35mm rounds in their ammunition division.

https://www.mkeusa.com/en-US/catalog...0-he-i/64/2130

Good point. Nothing from the Cold War should present any problems for this endeavor. Design patents in the US are 15 years in length and a quick Google search shows Swiss patents are 20 years: https://www.ige.ch/en/protecting-your-ip/patents

This is not exotic 6.8mm CT ammo. Every shop that can produce it, should. And then send it to Ukraine.

PS: Also, what's the threat here from the Swiss? We won't sell you ammo for 50-ish decades old weapons systems that you shoved in a warehouse years ago?

Raellus 04-29-2022 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chico20854 (Post 91770)
One aspect I will be interested to read about in years to come (if/when it is declassified!) will be what is going on with the various fires in Russia over the last week. The chemical plant that produces most of Russia's missile propellant, two military research and development centers, various ammo and fuel dumps close to the Ukrainian border... Russia certainly has underinvested in maintenance and modernization of its facilities, resulting in a great many more fires on a day to day basis than we are used to, but this certainly looks like the work of Ukrainian special operations forces or intelligence agency paramilitaries.

I'll have the popcorn ready!

I have a hunch it's cyber attacks, like Israel's Stuxnet attack on Iran's nuclear "research" centrifuges. I would be surprised if Ukraine hadn't been developing its cyberwarfare capabilities these past few years. Russia has a track record of hacking into Ukraine's power grid. Turnabout is fair play.

-

Vespers War 04-29-2022 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13 (Post 91766)
I have read that (perhaps lower tech) ammo can come from Poland and Turkey (and perhaps Norway).

https://www.army-technology.com/cont...tion/mesko-sa/
Mesko produces 35x228mm which wiki says the Gepard uses. I have not found the Turkish manufacturer but they are 35mm users and I can see them producing locally.

Aselsan is a Turkish manufacturer. They make an airburst round with tungsten pellets as the payload. NAMMO also manufactures ammo in 35x228mm, although I'm not sure where, given their multinational nature. And Rheinmetall makes some types of rounds in that caliber. I think Romarm in Romania also manufactures high explosive rounds (and training rounds), but not the more advanced rounds.


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