Optical relay for bradley
 

I think this has been touched on in another thread (somewhere), but I was wondering what the optical relay in the bradley actually allows. I understand it allows the commander to see what the gunner is aiming at, but can the commander control and fire the gun if the gunner is killed (or does he just shift over a seat?).?

I'm interested because I was reading the M1A1 article in the challenger mag and it says that the commander can take over the firing of the gun if the gunner is not available, and based on this picture, the commander must do this without physically moving to the gunner's seat.

http://a.imagehost.org/t/0873/M1A1_internal.jpg

I'm trying to find this type of info out for a variety (all) vehicles in the game so that I can understand what can be achieved if a vehicle is down a crew member or 2.

Many AFVs with 2+ man turrets allow the commander to take control of the maingun from the gunner, partly because the commander is the one looking for targets and if he believes one target is more threatening than another, he can aim the gun at that target and let the gunner do his job or he can take the shot himself.

Thanks

Pretty much any vehicle from the M48 onwards. The M551 in Vietnam would load the main gun with canister and the loader and gunner might even sit outside the vehicle to avoid being killed if they hit a mine.

I would LOVE to see film footage of a 152mm cannister round being fired. Anyone know whether such footage might be accessible online?

pretty sure there is one on youtube, not sure if it's 152mm, but it's canister

[edit]
120mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgn1nhUEgo8

Seen cannister fired from tank guns before. But the 152mm gun firing cannister, that would really have to be something. Huge bore to start with, and that short barrel - the biggest shotgun round EVER! (Well maybe not, but I'm sure you understand my enthusiasm).

Instead of starting a new thread I'll post another question here and hope for the best:
Area tank's gunsight, range finder and night vision (or thermal etc) systems separate or all the same thing? I ask because I'm making an expanded vehicle damage table that I hope will be somewhere intermediate in complexity of tw2.2 and tw1.0 for vehicle damage and I don't know if these systems can be damaged separately and what penalty to impose when they are damaged.

Generally separate, but there are some exceptions.

In the Bradley (M2A2 and M3A2, A3 has a whole different system I'm not very familiar with), the BC (Bradley Commander) can control most actions in the turret from his station. However, he only has a joystick to do so, not a full yoke like the gunner has - so it's slightly more difficult. He also has to reach way down to his left to control the weapon systems choice of ammo/ROF. In addition, he only has a single eyepiece to view what the gunner sees, and not dual-eye view. In short, shooting from the BC position is more difficult that from the gunners position, though BC's train for it.

As far as the systems being separate - yes, they are, but generally they are housed in the same place - otherwise bore-sighting would be more cumbersome.

Keep in mind, with the M2A3 and M1A2, the commanders have independent sights than the gunners - that way, while the gunner is identifying and engaging one target, the Commander is identifying the next target. Once the 1st target is killed, some mechanism is used (a button, I believe, but I've never seen it) that automatically swings the turret onto the new target for the gunner to engage, while the commander starts to scan elsewhere for a new target. This significantly ups the lethality of the weapons systems.

Thanks for that, some good information.

Now another question:
I notice that in tw2k v1 vehicles have a RF bonus - this seems to be translated into tw2kv2.0 as far as I can tell from looking at the vehicle guides (I don't own v2, only 2.2). 2.2 has a FC bonus, but this doesn't give a bonus to hit but rather removes penalties for target movement and obscuration. Did v2 implement the RF/FC bonus as a bonus to hit?

Also, I notice that the spread of numbers is greater +0 to +4/+5 - I was considering using both numbers - the 2.2 FC bonus to remove penalties and the v2 RF bonus as a flat bonus to hit for shots at vehicles and buildings. I was considering adding the bonus for both aimed and unaimed shots - mainly to allow autocannons firing bursts to actually hit something (e.g. 1/4 skill = 12/4 = 3 add RF of 4 = 7 to hit with each dice on a burst).

In the system I use I treat most autocannon 'bursts' as a series of single shots fired in quick succession rather than as bursts in the way that small arms automatic bursts are treated. This is because the rate of fire of autocannons is much slower than that of weapons such as machine guns, assault rifles and SMGs. That would not of course apply for weapon systems which use multiple autocannons firing in sequence or gatling-type autocannon (such as anti aircraft gun systems) as they achieve rates of fire comperable to or even greater than MGs.

I agree that something like that has to be used in 2.2 (kind of looks after itself in tw2013). In tw2.2 I've also said that a vehicle exists in its own "kill-zone" so 1/2 of any misses are re-rolled to hit again.

Traverse & Elevation
 

Quick question.

Does the Bradely have a manual backup for traverse and elevation of the 25mm (and by default the coax)?

From what I've been reading, yes.

Turret power control: electric/manual
(by commander) yes
(by gunner) yes
Max rate power traverse: 60º/s
Max rate power elevation: 60º/s
Gun elevation/depression: +60/-10º
Turret traverse: 360º

Yeah, but it sucks to use :) There is a couple of wheels you spin to elevate the turret, and swing it around. It's slow, and cumbersome, and tough to operate with your eye on the optics.

Better than loosing power and not being able to shoot back though I suppose....

LOL, marginally :)

Somewhere around here I have a great pic of the inside of the Bradley turret - I can't seem to find it though. Hopefully I can find it soon, and get it posted...

Any idea how long it would take to turn the turret 360 manually?

According to the specs above, about 6 seconds. Though, I believe that's the spec for powered traverse - however, I seem to remember it being much faster than that.



Seriously, I only tried it manually once - you spin and spin and spin, and the turret moves a little, the gearing is very high. It's been damn near 18 years now, but I seem to remember it being pretty slow.

I'd imagine traverse would be slow - it's a heavy damn turret after all so the gearing would have to be built to match.
Elevation on the other hand might be a bit easier if the weapons are balanced on the pivot point. Of course being a military vehicle, it's not exactly made with crew comfort in mind.... :(

yeah, I think that's the manual speed. I'm currently going through a process of updating the vehicle stats for my game and including things like the turret speed. I try to find this type of info on the web but it's hard to find - most of the time I hop onto youtube, find videos of the vehicles, and look how long it takes for their turrets to turn.:D I would be interested to know how long it takes to turn the turret manually because I could use that in the event that the electric/hydraulic transverse has been damaged.

This is the file I've been working on in my spare time - though I haven't had much of that lately:
http://sites.google.com/site/leonpoi...attredirects=0

I'd like some feedback into external vehicle load. The twilight 2000 rulebooks give external load (during character creation) as 10% of the vehicle weight. Now can anyone with any experience tell me if a tank can really have 3 or 5 tonnes of equipment strapped to the top of it and still go? I could believe it, a SUV here, a SUV there, pretty soon you're talking about real weight - could the suspension handle it? How about 12 tonne wheeled IFV - 1200 kg strapped on the outside, I don't know, can anyone lend insight?
thanks in advance.

There is no way you could spin a Bradley turret manually 360 degrees in 6 seconds, just aint going to happen. I seem to remember 2.5 seconds being the powered time around - it's really quick.

As for load capacity, there would be no problem throwing an extra few tons on the Bradley, or any AFV really. Reactive armor has to weigh several tons (I have no clue though), and that's just slapped on existing vehicles.

I need a little assistance...

I'm almost positive I've seen an ARV based on the M2 Bradley chassis in a similar way that the M88 is based on the M60. Does such a vehicle exist, even in prototype form, and what might it's towing capacity be?

It does have a manual backup, but I never tried it, and the last Bradley I worked out of was the M-2A1.

I also remember there were two turret rotation rates with the electric traverse -- normal speed and high-speed. I don't remember the rotation rates; I'll have to dig out my Bradley manual.

That would be great. thanks. Do you read the manual before operating or is it like a vcr or toaster - you just press some buttons and see what happens :)

Actually, yes! No one really RTFMs!

Well, that took a ridiculous amount of time -- 30 degrees per second at normal rate and 60 degrees per second at high speed traverse.

One more Bradley turret question...
 

Does the engine need to be running to provide electrical power to the turret traverse, etc? Is it able to operate solely on batteries (at least until they go flat)?

No, engine doesn't need to be running. We'd go an hour or so, run the engine for 15 mins to charge the batteries up, then shut it down again. Full use of the turret with the engine off.

Speaking from the heavy metal side of the house, the tank gunner controls the laser range finder, ballistic computer, night vision and weapon selection (main gun or coax). The tank commander has an override control to cut the gunner out and slew the turret to new targets, he can also laser range or fire the selected weapon only. The TC sight is an extension that allows him to use the gunner's periscope head. On most tanks this means that the TC has to drop inside the turret and look through his scope. On older tanks (M48/60s) the TC has to operate the rangefinder from his down position.

The M60A3 had a extension piece just for the night vision. I've always loved it because it was adjustable (to an extent) and it was possible to angle it so that I could look down and see what the gunner was tracking while keeping my head out of the turret. The M-1 switched back to the TC dropping down to use his sight.

On most tanks, the loader controls the safeties for the main gun and coax. On the M-1, the coax is mounted near the gunner and he has to reach up and enage the safety. Never liked that feature, but the Abrams has a fairly large coax feed box that takes up the traditional coax mount location.

Tank crews train for minimum crew, the TC can operate the gunnery systems, usually by using the toe of his boot and a lot of stretching. Can be quite amusing if you reading a map and yapping on the radio at the same time. Tankers can be quite flexible!

As for the tanks external load...four duffle bags, four rucksacks, four sleeping bags for the crew, two camouflage nets (a 10'x10' diamond and a 20'x20 hexagon)'with a bag of poles and spreaders, the tank tarp, a 155mm powder can loaded with maps of the area, four cases of MREs, most crews had a fifth duffle bag (or a 25mm ammo can from the Bradleys) loaded with NBC suits, spare filters and the decon kits, at least two 5-gal water cans, and a can each of 10W and 30W oil for the trannie/engine. Everything has to be packed on top of the turret, behind the hatches (THANK GAWD for bungee cords!) and covered with the tarp to protect the junk from the weather. You quickly mastered the art of getting everything inside the tarp and securing it so that it kept the turret clear for rotation.

M-1 has two hull sponson boxes to store the pioneer, track maintenance tools and the bore brush and poles to punch the main gun. A tool bag with hammer, adjustable wrench, box wreches, a sprocket set, files, screwdrivers, pliers and a grease gun. A dozen reload gease tubes, not to mention spare end connectors and center guides for the track.

The turret has two sponson boxes, used to hold smaller items of the tank kit like cleaning rags, small arms cleaning kit, critical spare parts, the LBE and Kevlar helmets of the crew and some of the machine gun ammo cans (IIRC the loader stored eight cans of 7.62 in his and the TC stored six cans of .50 in his).

As you can see, a lot of necessary junk to clutter up things.

I wouldn't apply any burst penalties for coax machineguns firing either, if using 2.x rules, since the only thing recoil is doing is providing the planned for dispersion on the gun. The gunnery SOPs for US AFVs call for blasting personnel targets with coax MG fire at a rate that would make light infantry guys who have to haul their ammo on their backs wince in pain just watching.

LOL, that's why the M-1 carries 10,000 rounds of 7.62mm and another 1,140 in .50 cal.

I do miss the days when a tank had HEP and Beehive rounds. Just to keep the crunchies entertained! ;)

Those days may be back: while I never got to shoot one, a few canister rounds filtered out our way. 1400 1/4“ tungsten pellets. :D

As far as stowage what we wound up doing was attaching 4 40mm cans to our bustle for POL and what have you, not to mention a bustle rack extension next to the APU sized just right for four duffles. Took forever to load us up as the entire troop was packrats.

Erm... Sorta. FMC built a repair vehicle based on the MLRS, but it wasn't a true ARV. IIRC, only one or two was made. You might find more info on it in the 92-93 Janes logistics and mines book if memory serves.

Ok, as it's a rarity at best, what's the towing capacity of a Bradley? Could it pull a dead weight (no wheels) of say 10+ tonnes?

I've seen Bradleys tow other Bradleys, but it was slow going.

I'm assuming that was while they still had tracks in place?

I am going to assume then that you mean another dead tracked vehicle; that being so, and assuming flat hard ground, sure, but not fast and not for far. Though this is an educated guess on my part.

LOL, always wondered if they would develop a canister when they switched to smoothbore!

As for the storage...I date back to when you had that silly web strap hanging off the back of the turret...when the extension came out on the IPM1, there were several beers hoisted at the NCO club to that unnamed warrant officer!!!