Coolest Camo
 

I'm in the mood for a poll. I've been thinking about and researching the appearance of soldiers of the various nationalities involved in combat in the Twilight War's ETO and I've definitely developed my own preferences and opinions. I thought it might be fun to discuss this topic here.

*CADPAT was rolled out in '95 or '96 (RW), so it would probably be somewhat rare and a lot of Canadian troops would probably be wearing their old, plain green fatigues. On the other hand, the prewar Canadian military was relatively small so maybe a larger proportion of them would have CADPAT by late '97.

**From photos of Russian Federation troops in Chechnya (and Georgia), it looks like at least a dozen different camo uniforms were in use in the mid-'90s to early 2000s. I've seen coveralls, smocks, fatigues, etc. Not sure what to do for the Soviet poll choice.

NOTE: The poll is set so that you can pick more than one but please don't post more than two favorites.

BTW, my fav is the Bundeswher Flecktarn pattern.

Flecktarn gets my vote also.

Coolest? My vote would be the Vietnam-Era Tiger pattern. Not the best pattern, but it does look cool.

Best? As much as it pains my Army soul to say so, I think its the US Marine digital camo. (Yes, I know they stole the idea from the Canadians, but they improved it.) The Army ACUs -- I simply don't believe in "One camo pattern fits all."

I too like the Tiger Stripe pattern but as for what I think is the coolest, I'm not entirely sure but I'm going with the crowd and picking Flecktarn.
I kind of like this Brazilian version of the French lizard pattern so it would be my second choice.
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=289

For the "What the hell where they thinking?" I would have to pick the Libyan 'Africa Corps' pattern
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=176
For the one I want to wear if I'm going to take drugs, this one from Indonesia has to be one of the best, besides, nobody will be able to tell if you spill any drinks on it
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=226
and last, for kind of cool but not quite cool enough
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=192

Thanks for the cool link SSC. When I lived in Ecuador in '87-'89, the army down there wore a lizard/tiger-stripe style camo kind of like that Brazilian AF. They had a cool mongrel mix of almost obsolete weapons from all over the place- Uzis and FN FALs, Puma and Gazelle helis, Sepecat Jaguars, Kfirs, and Mirage F-1 fighters... Independence Day was usually awesome.

Don't worry, it's not an enemy troop -- it's just a map of Africa---

For some reason, the song Hendrix's "Purple Haze" came immediately to mind when I saw that one...

Soviet camo for me!

How can anyone go past the love hearts and bunny rabbits on the Australian DPC?

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00001.php

Hmm, after a quick look through, I'm really liking this site!
http://www.kamouflage.net/

Apparently they don't want people stealing images. There is a blank gif over the image. That is actually kinda common nowadays :(

I think this page will work.
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00001.php

I like the current Aussie camo. It kind of looks like the leopard spot camo that some U.S. Marine Corps (and SEAL and GB) units wore in the '40s-early '60s, but much more subtle (and, I should imagine, more effective).

I didn't include it in the poll since you probably wouldn't see it in the ETO and I had to set a limit somewhere- otherwise, there'd be dozens of poll choices.

Yeah I should have thought of that when I picked the Brazilian uniform as my second choice... I guess in order to stick with the ETO I would choose the French Lizard pattern
By the way here is another camouflage collector's site
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/english.htm

I choose "Other" (Auscam), and not just for patriotic reasons. I think it looks really cool. Like Paul I also liked the Vietnam War era tiger stripe.

Auscam would be incredibly rare in the ETO but it would be there. At least one canon mini-module (What's Polish For G'day) is about Australian troops operating in the ETO.

Looking through that site with all of the various camo patterns on it I have decided to go with "Other". The coolest looking one, in my opinion, is the Lizard pattern used by Cyprus. Kinda tiger-stripe-ish, but better looking IMO.

I went for this one (russian)
 

http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=157

But on the other hand a picture with each alternative answer would be great in future polls...

and maybe even seperate polls for
winter
urban
desert
woodland
night
...other

The CAnadian Disruptive PATtern (CADPAT) became the standard issue for the Army in 2002, with the Air Force following suit in 2004. Uniforms and equipment in CADPAT material replaced the olive green material in use since the early 1960s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CADPAT

But much of that reason is due to delays with product quality difficulties. I first saw sets during the late 90s with T&E. That said, it'd still be very rare and probably only for units deployed in Canada in small numbers in localized places. Perhaps to distinguish certain units from pro-Quebec or other rebellious forces.

I will ask my brother about CADPAT, he would know; but he is probable busy, he became a father again yesterday afternoon for the second time. So I guess I will have to wait.

I had come to believe from a few things I had read that CADPAT was developed in the early 1990s and was taken on as the official uniform in 1997. Seems I was only partly correct.
This site mentions that initial trials were done in 1998 with another lot of trials done in 2001 so it looks as though there was a fair bit of time between intitial development and large scale issue
http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm
I think it would be believable that development could have been sped up due to the war between Soviets and Chinese and so while it would be rare, it could have found its way to Europe when NATO and WTO clashed.

Yeah, we had problems with the fabric maintaining the colors and IR limiting substances by not fading on the first couple of washes - a problem that actually persisted for a little while until it was addressed again much later. There was also basic manufacturing issues... some of mine simple fell apart or unraveled after only a little usage.

Speeding up production probably meant a lot of these problems were overlooked and as a result discarded by the troops rather quickly in favor of the old sets.

The BDUs were also designed to absorb IR...but it washed out fast. Not long after I got on active duty, I was looking through NODs at some of our other platoon members. I asked my squad leader (can't remember his name) why they were showing up so well if the BDUs absorbed IR.

He asked me: "Have you washed your uniform yet?" I answered, "Yes, Corporal." He said, "Then you look just like them in NODs."

*NODs= Night Observation Devices -- the common slang at the time for night vision goggles.

IIRC, the U.S. produced a night-time desert camo suit overlaid with a grid pattern. I can't remember the name for this uni. Supposedly, the grid pattern made the suit harder to pick out by NODs. Haven't seen the suits since the late '80s and early '90s so...

Does this mean they didn't work as advertised? Or what?

I remember getting one of those. If i remember correctly it was officially called "Desert, Nighttime" and you could get it reversable with either coffee stains or chocolate chip camo on the other side. I use to have a poncho with desert nighttime on one side and coffee stains on the other.

From what a friend said to me, the night desert camouflage doesn't work as well against newer night vision gear particularly thermal imagers. That's probably why it isn't still in use maybe?

"Night Desert" performed worse than every other camouflage (including overwhites) during some unofficial field trials. That is a shame I thought it looked cool.

http://yarchive.net/mil/night_camo_clothing.html

I managed to pick up a couple complete sets of the Danish and Polish camos (including in Goretex) and have been spotted pimping both around town from time to time!

In the T2K timeline for Europe, probably the Norwegian and Swedish patterns -- always liked the lines of both. Though I liked the old Austrian camo that they phased out in favor of OD green back in the 70s I think. T2K globally -- some of the South African patterns from back then were really cool.

Real world, Multicam rules the roost right now, though there are some quality competitors out there and coming online. ACUpat gets a solid nod as they worst camouflage fielded since the French though baby blue overcoats would help hide their guys if they were skylined on the horizon.

Oh, and the Soviet "Flora" and "Dubok" patterns are pretty cool, and would be T2K current, I think.

British DPM got my vote.

Couldn't chose between Flectar and DPM.

I do think the new combat uniform that is being fielded by the US Army in Afghanistan better than the ACUs, but then again, I just don't agree with the concept of "one camo pattern fits all," and the new uniform is supposed to be another universal camouflage pattern that is to eventually be issued to all US soldiers.

I don't suppose anyone has read much about the British Army's (and eventually the rest of the British forces), PECOC programme, which will be replacing Combat Soldier 95 and the traditional DPM pattern sometime in the near to mid future?

Recent rumblings (mainly from an ARRSE member who is a member of the trials and development team) seem to indicate that it is actually both a very good equipment set and camouflage scheme, should the MoD pull their finger out and and field it in the way it is intended.

As for the specific camouflage pattern, a lot of pictures of different trials patterns have appeared online, though I believe a final version has yet to be settled on (though a Crye-like multicam seems likely). By all accounts it will likely retain the same general colour mix as DPM, but in a different pattern and ratio to obtain a better camouflage effect. The programme managers are pushing for retaining a desert pattern rather than going for an all-purpose camo.

Basic issue will also become more sensible. For example, the current issue of CS95 includes two identical DPM smocks. The PECOC equivalent proposes the issue of two externally identical smocks (to prevent infuriated RSMs, WOs, and other people of that nature), but which will have different properties with regard to warmth, etc, thus providing a greater range of capabilities.

Even more interesting are the tales of all the anciliary parts to the kit, and the rumours of what equipment will become core issue. On the table at the moment is a proposal to make some form of body armour part of every soldier's basic issue, as no-one deploys without it, and most training is conducted with it, although presently it tends to come from a central pool that is dished out on an as needed basis. Furthermore, the plan is to have additional kinds of body armour system available depending on role and theatre. Webbing will be updated, again with several setups available, though an improved version of the current belt kit is the main focus, given that it is very popular with troops and quite versatile. The intent is to issue several more pouches of varying types than you need, so you can tailor it to your needs. Bergens, daysacks, assault vests, helmets, eyewear, etc all fall under the programme, and the plan is to integrate all the equipment worn by soldiers, rather than the present mess of things introduced a bit at a time. Interestingly, rather than order items in one huge lump and be stuck issuing them from here to forever, PECOC equipment will be obtained in relatively small numbers, the idea being that as each run of kit nears its end, improvements can be easily integrated into the next version. This pretty much formalises the present system of operational kitting anyway - the squadron we took over from had slightly better stuff than those before them, we had slightly improved kit over them, and our successors had better gear than us. The idea is to explicitly build that assumption into the kitting system and thus get better kit all round.

The only downside, of course, is that all this good stuff has to be paid for, and someone will work out a way of cutting the budget, and thus the quality, somewhere.

Anyway, interesting proposal, the troops trialling the kit have been very favourable, and the project team has shown itself to be very willing to come round to units and show them the gear and gather opinions. If it works, it could well be a model of how to procure equipment. Worth keeping an eye on.

I thought the British had already given the nod to the MTP pattern, which is basically DPM reworked by Crye using a multicam color palette.

It's in use in Afghanistan, and it's the leading PECOC candidate, but it's still not absolutely firm yet.

PECOC - http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=pecoc

Lol you silly British and your cool Acronyms.

PECOC= Peacock ;)

I love you guys

Honestly it quite silly thing. Going back to time a when Armies were had gaudy uniforms so opposing sides could recognize whose troops were whose on smoky battle fields up to a point between 1860 to sometime after the start of the World War I and trench warfare on the western front.

Even then once a base uniform had been established, it has been acknowledge that no matter how it may fill the needs of most day to day operations, that members with different MOS and in different theaters of operation will have to be issued other kit. Also the gucci add on equipment that some units may allow their troops to add to.

I am not to sure on this one best pattern that fits everywhere and I do understand the one desire to make uniformity seem true, but before the current operation in Middle East by the US and British especially. I remember watching video of units from the states and European bases, that were in the field mixing the woodland camo with various states of desert camo, due to the fact there weren't enough of any desert pattern to go around in the US inventories. Or the fact that most of the TA-50 gear they had was still olive drab green. I do remember that the Molle system that the US Army had been testing as far back as 1985, but due to the amount of TA-50 gear in war-time stocks, it wasn't until well in the 1990s and some cases still in 2000 and 2001 before some units had switch to the new system.

REMF and the Quartermaster/Supply units seem to think they should have the best of the best gear above other who might actually have need of the equipment. In fact, there some Quartermaster/Supply Officer/Sergeants who felt, since it was their responsibility for accountability the best way to exercise this was to sit on the gear.

As for the personal purchase of gear. While in the 82nd, being issued that was barely serviceable, but look good, many of us went out purchase as much what we could that the various outlet surplus stores. In many case, the purchased items include butt pack that you weren't issued due to the fact that didn't have any left to issue from central supply on base, or extra set so one could be kept for display and the other was field gear.

Then you look at the British system back then, it seem every Regiment of the Army had some twist they added to the basic uniform, whether if it for functionality purposes or for like in the Para and SAS where they had special smock help distinguish them in barracks and everyone to have one or the other for when they went to the field. In most military Tankers and Aviation seem to have overall/flight suits to some extent.

I so agree that with the way the British attitude is order the stuff in batches to add small improvement into the gear as units rotate in. That way if something doesn't work, in one or two rotation the issues can be corrected. It also take the control from the Supply people who seem to think that silly Infantry personnel don't need what is being entrusted to them to get to them.

Honestly, there will never be one best outfit that fit all. Take Iraq and Afghanistan. What works in Iraq may not work well Afghanistan and vice versa. Form what I hear even something that works well in on portion of the either country doesn't really work to well in other parts. Well doh, the old woodland pattern in the US inventory worked very well at some bases in the US, Korea, and Europe and other place you stuck out like sore thumb no matter how much you work you camo outpost...

We still have storemen who think that "stores are for storing" and are extremely difficult to get things out of. On the other hand, most that I have encountered have been very good with regards to supplying things. The stacker at my unit was particularly helpful, if you found something you thought would be useful and you could find the NSN for it, he'd have a go at ordering it in (cue mini-Maglites, Leathermans and the handy folding medical pouch for all). He was something of a master at creative accounting though.

As for universal camouflage, certainly one of the problems British troops in Helmand are facing is that an individual patrol will likely pass through areas which require both kinds of camouflage, DPM and desert, several times, hence the attempted introduction of a camouflage pattern that is suitable for both environments, though DPM and desert clothing is also still issued (and frequently worn mixed to try and deal with the problem).

And yes, Britain did invade Iraq with shortages of desert clothing, body armour, boots, batteries, ammunition, NBC kit, and various other handy things. The resulting deaths are probably why we seem to be paying so much attention to kitting these days.

EDIT: Another proposal from the PECOC programme is to retain brand names on equipment, because most soldiers know what kind of quality they can expect from a particular brand, and also it gives the manufacturer more incentive to produce high quality equipment, as everyone will know exactly who made an item.

to complicate the discussion further..
 

I see you guys discuss patterns - but what about materials ?

Most armies issue some sort of trilaminate "plastic" all weather kit to their troops as well as some sort of poly-cotton garments.

It is a well known fact that the one has better water resistance and the other has breathability and durability .

Any thoughts ?

I am undecided my self -both have their uses -but the goretex one shreds essily when doing drills and staying low on the advance..

Wearing Gore-Tex in the British forces, at least amongst combat types, is regarded somewhat unfavourably, unless you're doing something non-tactical like a range. There are two main reasons for this - one being that it rustles (not really an issue in my opinion, if it's raining hard enough to wear Gore-Tex, you're not going to be heard too easily), and the second being that it is gets you hot quickly, especially as the normal recommendation is to wear it under your combats to cut down on 'noise' and to maintain access to all the kit in your smock and trouser pockets.

Personally, I don't tend to wear waterproofs on exercise or ops (mainly because it never rained when I was there) except sometimes on stag, as invariably by the time you've stopped to get it out and put it all on, the rain has stopped. That, and when you inevitably get bumped by the opfor and start throwing yourself at the ground, crawling about and using streams as cover, you get soaked anyway. Anyway, skin's pretty waterproof and CS95s dry quickly enough. Best confined to base use, in my opinion.

I've personally never liked, and still don't like, rain gear. This goes from when I was a kid and we had those stupid yellow rubber raincoats (which somehow, by the end of the day, I would have "lost somewhere" -- my mother quickly stopped buying them for me), to the Army and today -- I don't even use an umbrella.

However, when it was rainy in the Army in the field, I always bought my own socks that were water repellent to an extent, and I always bought my own boots that, while they looked like regular issue boots, were also more weatherproof. I could be soaked all over, but when my feet got wet and soaked inside by footwear, I was miserable.

Well, boots are an entirely different matter, and the most important thing for an infantryman. We recently started getting issued Gore-Tex lined boots that are a lot more waterproof than the older issue ones, but the issue coincided with a week of live firing in knee deep snow, which generally meant falling in concealed streams a lot and having your boots fill with water. Turns out Gore-Tex boots take forever to dry, so by the second or third day most of us were back to leather boots and leaving a bag of dry socks by the range hut.