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Norfolk Status: Going Home Time Frame
Hey guys...
One thing I wanted to ask was, who was actually stationed in Norfolk before Going Home? I mean its supposed to be an HQ but had no stationed units? Anyone think that through or do a write up there? Seems more Civgov units were in the area then anything Milgov no? Just a random thought... :) |
Dunno about the US Army, but the Navy has a lot of ships there, and I think Atlantic Fleet's HQ. Lots of Marine & Navy installations around, such as the amphibious force's bases (includes Special Warfare).
Wikipedia says that nearby Fort Monroe is the HQ for the Army's Training & Doctrine Command. The fort closed in 2005. That's all I have, someone who's been there may have more for you. |
By 2000, and after several years of warfare, nukes and civil disorder, who knows who's there? It's possible the entire area was abandoned and then reoccupied by an advance force a short time before TF34 arrived.
Anyone who had occupied the area without the military's authorisation would surely have fled the moment the fleet appeared on the horizon and started landing troops. 50,000 soldiers make a persuasive argument! |
Langley AFB isn't far from Norfolk, just to throw a little spin into it. Home of squadrons of F-15A/Bs, C/Ds, and Es, and the personnel and equipment needed to support them.
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Those F-15's aren't like to remain there after so many years of warfare though are they? Anything that can fly and be fitted with a weapon would be pushed to one of the many combat theatres, at least until the fuel ran out.
Supporting units/troops would also be moved to where they can be more useful. |
Well, I understand whats near it now. But per canon, who was there to run the joint?
It was still the Navy HQ to the best of my knowledge, some units had to be there to secure the ships right? What ships were there, nothing canon that I am aware of. One of the things that always annoyed me was the lack of ANY information about other units. Nothing about Engineer battalions or AAB's or MI units. I guess the sheer volume there could have caused alot of issues for the writers but still...I wish. :) |
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It might be interesting for a PC group to be sent ahead as a part of a scouting mission, but given that the game concepts have the PCs in eastern or central Europe when the mission is being organised.... Whatever units were their prior to the evacuation would have undoubtedly been absorbed, reorganised, or even disbanded by the time PCs arrive (unless they're sent ahead). |
Only as a civilian, but I've spent a fair amount of time in the Norfolk / Hampton / VA Beach area. The place is littered with bases. Shipyards, naval aviation, training, weapons development and testing, logistics, you name it. It's pretty scattered and maybe not the most combat ready, but even without an infantry formation per se, it adds up to thousands of personnel, even before you count civilians. It's also home to thousands more ex service members who could probably be mobilized in a pinch.
I think they'd have to reorganize, rationalize the footprint, find a way to get extra equipment, etc. But I have no trouble believing that the personnel on hand could hold and maintain that area if they were loyal and had food. If you further assume that even a couple smaller units stayed there for added security rather than being deployed to Europe, you have a good base for the TF to return to without needing big named units in place there. |
IIRC there was an enclave at Norfolk performing salvage and support following the nukes dropped on the base/area.
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I've now searched through all the books and Challenge articles and came up with this.
Howling Wilderness Quote:
Challenge #30 Quote:
The article "A Rock in Troubled Waters" in Challenge #42 also has a few references to Norfolk, but not much beyond a few vessels in the area. |
I would imagine the nuke footprint on that entire region would be so big that the personnel in charge of Norfolk would be rats and cockroaches; however, they might at least truck in a few hundred people to help the soon-to-be-discharged 50000+ military (seriously, five divisions worth of troops and MilGov - who is just barely holding on to the oil fields in Oklahoma - is going to just let the lot of them wander off into Mad Max land?!) get squared away and disbursed.
If the USSR didn't flatten Norfolk and surrounding environs then you might as well say Elves with +2 broadswords run it because that's the level of fantasy we'd be talking about. |
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1 MT is going to do some serious damage. http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&..._1=365060&zm=9
The prevailing winds at that time of year are also going to drive the fallout south along the coast. https://www.windfinder.com/windstati..._naval_station Fortunately the area was only hit with one large strike, http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=851, however the published lists only include warheads of 0.5 megaton or more. It's quite possible, even probable, smaller warheads struck nearby. One of those were probably targeted at Langley AFB. http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?t...aa809c250eb874 |
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Put yourself in the Soviet commanders seat for a moment. Would YOU spare Langley? |
From Wikipedia:
Naval Station Norfolk is a United States Navy base in Norfolk, Virginia. It supports naval forces in the United States Fleet Forces Command, those operating in the Atlantic Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, and Indian Ocean. NS Norfolk, also known as the Norfolk Naval Base, occupies about four miles (6 km) of waterfront space and seven miles (11 km) of pier and wharf space of the Hampton Roads peninsula known as Sewell's Point. It is the world's largest naval station, supporting 75 ships and 134 aircraft alongside 14 piers and 11 aircraft hangars, and houses the largest concentration of U.S. Navy forces. Port Services control more than 3,100 ship movements annually. So Norfolk is America's primary East Coast naval base and in fact its largest. In 2016 U.S. Navy ships based at Norfolk include warships attached to Carrier Strike Group Two, Eight, Ten and Twelve, Destroyer Squadron 2, 14, 22, 26 and 28, Amphibious Squadron 4, 6, 8 and Submarine Squadron 6. Military facilities near Naval Station Norfolk include Camp Allen also in Norfolk, Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, Dam Neck in Virginia Beach, St. Julien's Creek Annex in Chesapeake, Fort Eustis in Newport News, Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, U.S. Navy and Coast Guard facilities in Portsmouth and Yorktown, and the CIA training facility known as the "The Farm' at Camp Peary in York County. The Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth is also the U.S. Navy's largest industrial facility. Also there is Fort Monroe in Hampton which is a very large and now decommissioned US Army coastal artillery fort and a national monument. Four naval carrier air wings are attached to Naval Air Station Oceana which has four runways. U.S. Navy Naval Special Warfare Group Two and Four are based at Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek along with a number of naval construction and specialised units. U.S. Navy Weapon Station Yorktown is a 20.7 square mile (54 square kilometre) complex that stretches across York County, James City County, Newport News and Hampton Roads which provides extensive storage and loading facilities for U.S. Navy weapons and ammunition. Langley Air Force Base hosts the USAF 1st Fighter Wing and the Virginia Air Guard 192nd Fighter Wing. Two US Marine Corps fleet anti-terrorist security team's are based at Camp Allen, and a number of U.S. Army logistics and aviation support units are based at Fort Eustis. Non-military run facilities in the area include Huntington-Ingalls Industries Newport News Shipbuilding who design, build and refuel U.S. Navy nuclear powered aircraft carriers, the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility in Newport News, Norfolk International Airport and Newport News/Williamsburg International Airport. There are also numerous commercial docks and ship handling facilities and a huge amount of transport infrastructure such as railway hubs, road and rail tunnels and large bridges in the area. There are two nuclear power plants in Virginia within 30 miles of Norfolk and another one in Maryland on the western shore of Chesapeake Bay. If this is not a priority nuclear target for the Soviet Union then I don't know what is. However despite lobbing a 1mt warhead at Norfolk the sheer size of the facilities in the area means a lot must have survived even if the Soviets got a direct hit and I doubt they did with Norfolk and the other bases lying so close to the sea. As Task Force 34 is referred to as sailing for Norfolk then we must assume that the Norfolk area is relatively intact and under MilGov control. |
What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? I'd think that would be a more efficient way of taking out a set of facilities such as this.
It's also possible 2 or three times that payload was launched, but the additional warheads failed to arrive due to interception or launch vehicle failure. I think I read somewhere that only 85% was expected to arrive on target in a best case (for the attacker) scenario. |
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why you might ask yourself why it was not hit? Take your pick, it was not targeted, the weapon system targeting it was destroyed prior to intented launch, the weapons malfunctioned after take off, near or total miss, or it was a dud. |
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We also know nuclear craters are a possible result on the random encounter tables, so it's absolutely certain nowhere near all nuclear strikes have been listed in the books. |
Keep in mind that several sites might not have been hit due to defective warheads not going off, missiles going off course due to multiple reasons, and also missile defenses taking out the incoming warheads
As for not every target being listed in the game you have to keep in mind that there were a lot of targets that have been confirmed by various sources that were not hit - for example the only places hit in PA are the ones listed in Howling Wilderness - Allegheny Uprising confirmed that they were the only places hit by nukes - which means the Soviets completely ignored the Mack Truck assembly plant in Allentown, Three Mile Island, Harrisburg, the Naval Weapons Center, the BAE plant at York (which was making Bradley's, M109's, Bufords, M88A2s and would be a prime military target), Carlisle, Fort Indiantown Gap, and three US Army Depots - all of them untouched by nukes of any sort Thus there is every chance that places not listed in the various guides as being hit were never hit by nukes of any kind - which by the way still leaves open them being hit by a conventional attack of some kind. So its not as easy as saying that places not listed in HW under the major nukes had to have been hit by smaller ones. |
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If this is the case then it must have been a single warhead as the Soviet Union only ever developed one type of 1.0 Mt nuclear warhead. They were deployed on the SS-N-6 SLBM's (Mod 1 & 2) that were carried on Yankee 1 and Yankee II submarines. The SS-N-6 was developed in the 1960's and early 1970's with a range of between 2,400 and 3,200 km and a CEP of 1.9 km (Mod 1) and 1.3 to 1.8 (Mod 2). So due to their relatively limited range in comparison to Soviet ICBM's and newer and more capable Soviet SLBM's the Yankee submarines could not launch their SS-N-6 missiles in the relative safety of Arctic waters. So they would have to penetrate NATO anti-submarine defences along the GIUK Gap in the North Atlantic to get within launching range of the US Eastern Seaboard, and then launch their older and less accurate SLBM's while being stalked by powerful fleets of US and British nuclear powered hunter killer submarines. Also due to the age and relative accuracy of the SS-N-6 missile and the fact that their intended target of Norfolk and Portsmouth with other bases in the area are located on or near the shoreline of Chesapeake Bay, there is a high (50%) probability that the SS-N-6 missile will land offshore in Chesapeake Bay, or could in fact land on the sparsely inhabited Delmarva Peninsula or even further out in the Atlantic Ocean. |
Absolutely correct.
Some places not listed may have been hit, some not hit, some hit with either conventional weapons, sabotage, or both. At the end of the day it's all down to the GM to decide just how screwed a place is. The books provide us with a framework to build on and as long as we're faithful to that framework and the intentions of the writers, the rest can be whatever the GM wants. As for Langley, I don't know if it would warrant a nuke, I don't know enough about it and what's to be found there. However, it'd certainly be considered as a target by the Soviets for attack at some point. Perhaps it was a secondary or tertiary target only to be targeted in a full scale nuclear war, perhaps it was simply missed in the initial exchange. Perhaps it's already flattened. It really doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme, only if a GM decides there's enough there to warrant the PCs checking it out for some reason. We also don't know for sure that TF-34 docked at the Naval base itself, only that Norfolk attracted nukes totalling around 1MT, and 50,000 American troops evacuated from Europe with the Norfolk region as their main destination. Some ships may not have reached Norfolk, or been diverted to other Milgov enclaves along the coast. This seems likely given the logistical nightmare feeding so many people would entail. Norfolk appears to have received an airburst(s) as ground bursts appear to be specifically noted in the target lists. Therefore radiation levels may be almost tolerable (look at Warsaw for example) and physical damage to infrastructure out of the immediate blast area is potentially repairable given time and resources. The warheads may have drifted off target by a mile or so as well, which would help to spare some of the necessary facilities to receive TF-34. There also appears to be other dock facilities in the area besides the naval base which may have been pressed into use. |
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It's even possible the area was nuked on more than one occasion, perhaps several different warheads over a period of several days as damage assessments became available. Exact details though don't matter as previously mentioned. |
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What I am saying is in this case it's an open playing field. The details are impossible to pin down. It's up to the individual GM to say what did, or did not happen within the few guidelines we have on this particular issue. Was it one warhead? Maybe. But it's also just as possible there were multiple warheads. We just don't know for sure. Most of the likely Soviet missiles carried multiple warheads, and the distance between targets of each warhead is limited to a few hundred kilometres. There are only a handful of other targets within that possible area (all 0.5MT), so where did the other warheads go? Are Soviet missiles equipped with warheads of varying yields all within the same bus, or is it more likely that two 0.5MT warheads hit the Norfolk area? My money is on the latter, but that's just my opinion and I freely admit that may not be the case - we'll never know. As for conventional weapons attacks, do the Soviets not possess sub, ship or aircraft launched cruise missiles just like many other nations? Conventional weapons are possible. They're just not as effective as a nuke, but may be exactly what's required at certain points through the war. |
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As for an air attack, do the Soviets posses stealth bombers? Because there is no way that any Soviet bomber would get any way near the continental US in wartime. |
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It only says a total of 1MT which it specifically states in the notes "not necessarily as a single weapon". Notice I've once again quoted the books here. Quote:
Note that two 0.5MT warheads adds up to the total 1MT dropped on Norfolk. Also note that all other targets within the likely area of one of these missiles also received 0.5MT or a multiple of it. This fact reinforces the possibility of several warheads being dropped on Norfolk. This is just one of several possible missiles which could have been used. There is nothing to say a ground based ICBM was in fact targeted to this area - could have been a boomer with a different set of warheads and payloads. Quote:
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The whole point of my last few posts is that it's possible within a strict interpretation of the information we have that more than one warhead was used to attack Norfolk. Given a little research I believe that it is likely the missile used was probably an R-36M carrying eight (8) 0.5MT warheads. This missile also delivered warheads as far north as Washington DC. Likely targets in this particular scenario included: Andrews AFB, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst). Fort Meade, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst). Camp David, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst). Arlington, VA: The Pentagon (.5 Mt, ground burst). Quantico, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst). Fort A.P. Hill, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst). Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt). You'll note this adds up to exactly 8 of those 0.5MT warheads the R-36M carries and all those targets are within the likely throw range for the warheads from one missile. Is this exactly how it happened? Who knows, but it's certainly plausible, and that is the entire point. |
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So yes it may not have been a single weapon, but then again it may also have been one as the statement is ambiguous. However Howling Wilderness does not state what Soviet missile was launched at Norfolk/Portsmouth, nor does it tell us that it was a MIRV. There is only one Soviet warhead with a yield of 1 Mt and it was deployed on the SS-N-6 SLBM. Quote:
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Just to throw a wrench in, the Russians were believed to have armed some of their ICBM warheads with biological warfare warheads.
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According to Jonathan Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies the Soviets developed smallpox biological weapons that were intended for use against American cities, with the aim of killing the survivors in the aftermath of a nuclear exchange. U.S. intelligence officials said they were unaware of the plan until Soviet scientist Kanatjan Alibek defected in 1992, and is now the executive director of George Mason University’s Center for Biodefense in Virginia. But the U.S. had suspicions that one Soviet missile system had been modified to carry biological weapons; The SS-11 missiles had an oddly shaped warhead, and it was suspected it might be for biological weapons; Tucker states that the SS-11, SS-13, SS-17 and SS-18 ICBM's were equipped with special biological weapon warheads over a 20-year-period. He also states that many of the missiles were based in silos near the Arctic Circle on a launch-ready status. The cold temperatures in the far north kept the smallpox agent viable for long periods. Tom Cochran of the Natural Resources Defense Council, which maintains a historical database of Soviet missile deployments, said that while there were no Soviet missile fields within 500 miles of the Arctic Circle. Four fields of SS-11, SS-13 and SS-17 missiles were located at northern latitudes of the Soviet Union during the period Alibek says the smallpox warheads were deployed. Those fields no longer exist as of 2001. Tucker also states that Soviet engineers later developed special refrigerated warheads for the more modern SS-18, to enable the biological payload to survive the intense heat of re-entry through the atmosphere. A senior U.S. intelligence official at the time confirmed that U.S. spy satellites had detected a variant of the SS-11 missile warhead that had raised suspicions about biological weapons. Alibek said the initial targets were New York, Seattle and Chicago, and that Boston was added to the list later. And American cities were not the only target. After 1968 Chinese cities also were placed on the target list. Alibek said he saw Gorbachev's signature on a Soviet Politburo document authorizing the production of smallpox for use in a war against the United States. Tucker also states that the Soviet Union may have been responsible for distributing samples of the smallpox virus to other countries, including Iraq and North Korea, following the World Health Organization's eradication of the disease in the late 1970's. Tucker cites a U.S. National Security Council document as listing other possible recipients as China, Cuba, India, Iran, Israel, Pakistan and Yugoslavia. However a lot of this is speculation. I would be certain that the Soviets did think about developing biological warheads for missiles and maybe even tinkered with a prototype or two. But I don't think there is any real evidence that the Soviet ever really deployed biological warheads on ICBM's. |
Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.
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Sir Frank Macfarlane Burnet who was the Director of the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute for Medical Research, and won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 1960 stated that... "Specifically to the Australian situation, the most effective counter-offensive to threatened invasion by overpopulated Asiatic countries would be directed towards the destruction by biological or chemical means of tropical food crops and the dissemination of infectious disease capable of spreading in tropical but not under Australian conditions." In 1951 it recommended that chemical and biological warfare research should be authorised to report on the offensive potentiality of biological agents likely to be effective against the local food supplies of South-East Asia and Indonesia. Australia signed the BWC in 1972 and ended all Australian research into offensive biological weapons. However it should be noted that Australia has advanced research programs in immunology, microbiology and genetic engineering that support an industry providing world class vaccines for domestic use and export. It produces microorganisms on an industrial scale to support industries including agriculture, food technology and brewing. The dual-use nature of these facilities mean that Australia could easily produce biological warfare agents. Some disease research laboratories in Australia own strains of the Ebola virus. The Australian Microbial Resources Research Network lists 37 culture collections, many of which hold samples of pathogenic organisms for legitimate research purposes. |
Well the CSIRO and associated government-funded bodies are right up there with the world's best scientists so they'd certainly have the capability. Heck, Australia joined the Blue Streak program with the understanding that we'd get our own nukes at the end, but the US thought Australia was a security risk and that we'd hand all the tech specs to the commies so they blocked it.
We've just commenced hostilities on the European carp and we're about to engage in some pretty nasty biological warfare against those scaly, gill-breathing bastards. Prepare for herpes carp-agedon, fishies! |
I find a lot of this info quite interesting but ultimately, how does it gibe with the canon information? I haven't read the books for some time but knowing full well that when they were written there wasn't as much information available, I feel that any correct info we have found after the fact still needs to be tailored to suit the gameworld - otherwise we start to lose the flavour of the game that attracted us to it in the first place.
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Seeing as I've lived in the Hampton Roads area for 30 odd years I thought I'd add my 2 cents.
In reading previous discussions on the board, my assumption follows. If it is stated in canon that the fleet returning from "Going Home" makes port in Norfolk, it would seem to me that there is something to return to. It is canon that a nuke was dropped with the intent to hit the Atlantic Command HQ located at the Norfolk Naval base. If it was a direct hit, it certainly wouldn't do the base any good, but there are other port facilities, both military and commercial in the Hampton Roads area. Assuming no other nukes are dropped on military or civilian targets in the area, then it is conceivable the fleet would return to Norfolk rather than another port on the Eastern Seaboard. If it is more than one weapon, the Soviets could sling nukes at some of the following targets: Major: Newport News Shipbuilding and Norfolk Naval Shipyard (located across the river from Norfolk in Portsmouth) which are still worth hitting in the non all out nuclear exchange presented in the game. Hitting these two targets and hitting Bremerton effectively ends carrier building and major carrier repair for the foreseeable future. Minor: Southside - Little Creek NAB, Oceana NAS, Chambers Field (part of Norfolk naval station), Ft Story various civilian shipyards. Peninsula - Langley AFB, Ft Eustis, Yorktown NWS, Camp Perry, various civilian shipyards. Most of the minor targets, with perhaps the exception of the shipyards, wouldn't really be worth hitting in a non all out attack. Most personal, equipment and planes would presumably already be deployed. Whether the Soviets care or not is another story, but in might make a difference in tit for tat exchanges. In an all out bolt from the blue attack, most of southeast Virginia would be glass. In a tit for tat nuke exchange their is some chance of survival. |
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