Why no China?
 

Has anyone spent anytime on the Chinese forces?

I find it blaringly obvious that China is totally absent from ANY detailed works.

Well, since the Soviets basically blasted them off the face of the planet with nukes, does it really matter that much? Whatever's left surely can't be all that organised, or in significantly large numbers.
Looking at the timeline info, it would appear China suffered very, very badly and in effect knocked back to the stone age. A radioactive, badly cratered stone age at that.

Is there a list of China nuke targets?

They had like 1 million troops back then I think...I doubt they get nuked that badly.

No list anywhere in the books.
Note that all starts on the 9th of July 1997 and we hear nothing more about China in the timeline. The implication is China's war is over for all practical purposes.
We do see in the Survivors Guide to the UK that "Canton and the port of Hong Kong have been destroyed by small nuclear strikes" - the UK 6th Infantry Division (heavily damaged in the earlier strikes) withdrew there.

Actually Chinese forces are mentioned a couple of other places - the retreat by the US Army into Korea happened after they had met up with Chinese forces and then were attacked in the same series of nuclear attacks that destroyed the Chinese forces

And the Soviet Army books detail that they are still fighting marauders in the areas they occupied - those marauders are most likely remnant Chinese units which may or may not have some sense of organization left to them - or may be like the Soviet units that fell apart in Europe and are basically just bandits with better weapons

There most likely are Chinese units that are still intact and functional - but completely cut off from any higher command and thus are basically functioning on their own - i.e. in places the Soviets would not have nuked - in that way they may be like the 43rd as described in Last Submarine - still a military unit, still with a functional command structure but not answering to anyone but their commander

Actually one interesting idea would be if Taiwan had re-invaded to try to establish an area of control based on a surviving small port in an attempt to rebuild control over China or at least part of it - their military would be intact - the biggest question for them would be fuel supplies

I just find it very odd that, with the largest military in the world, they simply vanished into marauder groups.

I found about 8 targets, all port cities really. But other writing has Hong Kong getting spared..."major coastal cities such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, Ningbo, Nanjing, Gingdao, Tianjin, Ginghuangdao, and Dalian".

"Inexplicably, Hong Kong and Macau escaped nuclear destruction, but today are near ghost towns and pirate refuges".

Anyone have any ORBATS for China?

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

That would suggest to me that they did indeed get nuked that badly and also (imo) supports the possibility of some Chinese units still being intact but operating autonomously. It also suggests (imo) that there might also be significant numbers of Soviet troops on Chinese soil also acting autonomously. It's probably not too much of a stretch to suppose that some marauder 'armies' may be made of Soviet and Chinese troops.

There's also a few references to China in Rae's Korean sourcebook all of which, as far as I can tell, support the view that China has been hit harder than any other major belligerent (Rae, feel free to correct me if that's wrong).

Others' mileage may vary of course. With regards Taiwan, I'm not aware it's mentioned anywhere in any published source other than a one line mention in Rae's Korean Sourcebook that sheds no light on whether their military is intact or not.

Re: Hong Kong, Legbreaker's earlier quote from the SGUK confirms that it was nuked but only relatively lightly.

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

If there is one place you could have a completely mixed up marauder unit with just about every type of equipment and nationality you can think of its China

Just imagine a marauder unit made up of the following:

surviving Chinese troops from a unit or units that got nuked

Soviet troops that deserted or the unit fell apart from literally every nationality and location in the Soviet Union

escaped American and South Korean POW's or survivors of units that got overrun

Polish, Hungarian, Bulgarians or East Germans that said screw this and decided to either get home or go off on their own - or who were prisoners of the Chinese and escaped or were let go when everything went to hell after the nuke strikes

Gurkhas from the British unit that got nuked near the Yalu

North Korean's that are survivors of the units that got driven north of the Yalu and decided they wanted nothing more to do with the war

and using the Korean Sourcebook you can add in possibly Australian, New Zealand or Japanese troops that were POW's and busted out of some godforsaken POW camp in North China

Challenge 31 Page 4

Keep in mind the that Challenge Article may or may not be not be exactly canon (i.e. some what it describes about the Ukraine and other areas) - but it is a very good description of what happened to China from the nuclear strikes

Has anyone ever even tried to put together a list of Chinese nuclear targets?

As well as other nationalities alot of countries were not really covered in the book. So its entirely possible that the Phillipines or some other third world countries, like countries of Latin America, sent some troops to Korea to help the US as well. So there may be a handful of escaped POWs from El Salvador as well for instance. Cause the Korean War had more than the Koreas, China and US in it.

Some information is available online to give a general idea of China's forces

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...na/pla-org.htm

Looked thru the information there and found some stuff that could help put together a picture of the Chinese Army

The Chinese military divides its units into two categories, Category A and Category B. Category A covers "full-training units" with complete armaments and full establishment. They have modern armaments, and undergo full-time, high-intensity military training. Category B units are "non-full-training units" which have out-of-date armaments, are under-manned, have low budgets, receive less training, often participate in productive labor, and have to have their weapons replaced and receive basic training before they can go into battle. China's Category B units are similar to the US National Guard.

As of the late 1980s the strength of the Category A units of the Chinese ground force was about 700,000, grouped into seven rapid response group armies (the 1st Army, 13th Army, 21st Army, 27th Army, 38th Army, 39th Army, and the 54th Army). Category B (Category 1 reserve) units of the Chinese ground force were in 19 group armies, 60 motorized infantry divisions, and some independent artillery divisions (or brigades).

As of the late 1980s main forces included about 35 group armies, comprising 118 infantry divisions, 13 armored divisions, 17 artillery divisions, 16 antiaircraft artillery divisions, plus 71 independent regiments and 21 independent battalions of mostly support troops (artillery, antiaircraft artillery, signal, antichemical warfare, reconnaissance, and engineer).

Regional forces consisted of 73 divisions of border defense and garrison troops plus 140 independent regiments.

As a result of the troop reductions announced in the July 1998 White Paper on National Defense, a number of PLA Divisions have been transfered to the PAP. By the late 1990s the Army had been reduced to 24-25 Group Armies incorporating a total of 90 divisions. Of these Armies, 17 are deployed in the north and northeast, positioned to repel Russia from the north, and Japan and Western powers from the east and over the Korean Peninsula.

People's Armed Police (PAP) was created in 1983 when the PLA transferred most of its internal police and border responsibilities to the new force. The PAP is still primarily composed of demobilized PLA personnel. As a result of the 1,000,000-man reduction in the PLA in the 1980s, the People's Armed Police grew by about 500,000 troops, to a total of roughly 800,000.

An order of Battle I found at the same web site - UI means unidentified unit - i.e. they didnt know the unit designation

from the same link above as well as other sites including the wikipedia entry which heavily draws on Warden, Robert L.; Savada, Andrea; Dolan, Ronald;; Library of Congress, Federal Research Division (1988). "China: A Country Study". pp. 582–3

Under the system used in the 1980's that the game designers based the Chinese Army on for the game a field army consisted of three partially motorized infantry divisions and two regiments of artillery and anti-aircraft artillery.

Each field army division had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion. Each division was supposed to have its own armor and artillery but there was very little information to actually show was actual equipment levels they had.

In 1987 the new, main-force group armies typically included 46,300 soldiers in up to four divisions, believed to include infantry, armor, artillery, air defense, airborne, and air support elements. Those mobile armies were supposed to be mobile and capable of combined arms operations but because there was a lack of mechanization they still mostly consisted of foot infantry, usually transported by trucks at best, with armor and artillery support.

The 13 armored divisions each had 3 regiments and 240 main battle tanks but most didnt have much in the way of mechanized infantry support or APC's and tanks were used often as mobile artillery. There was some self-propelled artillery but rocket launchers were more often what was used for fire support.

Engineering equipment was available but there wasnt a lot of mine-laying or mine-clearing equipment which left the Chinese formations vulnerable to mine fields.

Artillery was mostly towed guns, howitzers and truck mounted multiple rocket launchers

Regional forces - i.e. independent divisions - were used as garrison units, mostly being static units to defend cities, coastlines or borders, and were artillery heavy but lacking in armor or transport. They were also used to train militia as well

Keep in mind that there are close to three million members of the People's Liberation Army Militia as well

Thus given the size of their military and adding in the Police and Militia you can see why no attempt to ever release a Chinese Army book was ever done - especially considering by 2000 there wasnt a Chinese Army anymore

So as an example lets use the 205th Infantry Division - this is a unit that would have definitely been part of the fighting with the Soviets in 1995-1996

Originally the 28th Division the division was renamed as the 205th Infantry Division in 1985 and transferred to the 28th Army after the 69th Army Corps was disbanded. It consisted of the following units:

613th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
614th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
615th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
Tank Regiment which would have had around 80 main battle tanks - most likely Type 59 and Type 59-1 tanks (i.e. a Chinese copy of the T-54A)
Artillery Regiment;
Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment.

The division was a Category A division and stationed with the 28th Group Army at Shanxi District in the city of Datong.

If you were creating a history for it you could have it involved in any stage of the Soviet Chinese War and possibly be one of the units that got nuked by the Soviets during the destruction of the Chinese Army. Thus you could have men from this unit be used as a basis for a marauder group in a campaign based in China or Mongolia

My drive to figure out China is that I am working on an idea for the reunification of Korea against the Russians and if there are still viable Chinese units to support the endeavor.

I can't imagine there aren't any units left, however their loyalty of course is questionable.

My understanding is any units still in something resembling one piece are in the southern parts of the country. The northern parts, which abuts Korea, are pock marked with nuclear craters and ghosts.

I would say that there would be remnant units in Northern China - face it there were Soviet units that got nuked pretty badly as well - some of them were completely destroyed others were taken down to very low levels (as were American units - 2nd Armored for instance)

Thus could there be functioning remnant units - yes - but there is no higher authority for them to answer to except for various warlords

I would say that if there is any functioning armies or divisions that are left that Legbreaker is correct in that they would be in the central to southern areas of China away from the areas that got nuked - and mostly they would be garrison type units - as any Category A units or units that got updated to Category A during the war were probably all at the front fighting the Soviets and pretty much got nuked - example would be the Army reserve division that is on Hainan - most likely it came thru intact

FYI - I think that if there ever really is anything on China that would even be close to approaching a sourcebook it either needs to be one that is more like a historical document - i.e. close to stuff that Chico and others have done trying to make a history of the war - or it needs to be a July 2000 or April 2001 China and show more what is still left and not what they had

i.e. not here is the 125 divisions that China used to have - its more like here are the 20 remnant divisions and/or warlord forces that are left

And those Divisions are probably at around 10% strength at best I'd think. Certainly not capable of offensive action, and probably barely able to defend themselves against a decent sized marauder band.

I guess I am just staggered by the assumptions,with not alot of canon to go from, that 3.7m Chinese troops all got nuked to 10%.

120ish divisions got nuked? Thats more tonnage then landed on the whole US...assuming one nuke per division.

And now the Soviets hold the entire country with like 20 divisions?

IDK, not trying to be a dick but that all seems REALLY convenient vs RL factual.

Now losing central command and breaking into marauding little kingdoms? Sure...but with no capacity to defend themselves at 10% total prewar manpower? I cant get there...

That 10% is my suggestion for those few units still in the north. Note that's not really all that different to those in Europe, with some "Divisions" down from roughly 10,000+ men to perhaps a few hundred - worse than 10% left.
The Soviets were not mucking about. Remember what was happening in July 1997 - the Pact forces were being pushed back on all fronts and Nato was on Soviet soil with not much in front of them to stop them from continuing.
The Soviets were looking to END their involvement on at least one front, and China being somewhat short of actual allies, was (in my opinion) the logical choice, especially as the Chinese have never had much in the way of nuclear weapons themselves to retaliate with.
Hit the Chinese HARD, inflict grievous casualties and you free up quite a few battle hardened veteran units to send west.
Another factor which may have been considered is global wind patterns. Generally any fallout from China will stay away from the USSR, however anything from Europe could impact them.
https://earth.nullschool.net/#curren...3.00,43.23,683
I don't think they're "holding" the country, more just acting as a screen on the off chance a few Chinese units pull together something resembling an effective force.Note again there's units, many of them, in Europe at or below 10%. I'm actually thinking that's a fairly high percentage for Chinese units, unless that includes local recruits and civilian support.

Another point to bear in mind is the Chinese military isn't all actual combat troops and their supply train. There's quite a large number who have virtually no combat training and are actually employed running factories, farms, acting as police, road construction, etc. Technically they're military, but in reality they're just civilians in uniform.

Also keep in mind that the Soviets arent occupying all of China - far from it - in fact they hold relatively little of the country

Soviet Vehicle Guide

1st Far Eastern Front - Manchuria
2nd Far Eastern Front - Mongolia
Yalu Front - Korea

The 1st and 2nd Far Eastern Front have 13 divisions and 2 brigades between them, the Yalu front three divisions, a regiment and a brigade

So basically they went on a mission to grab off Manchuria and expand the size of their holdings around Mongolia - not grab the whole country

1st Far Eastern Front

Most of the units just say Manchuria (23rd Motorized is in Tsitsihar (Qiqihar) Manchuria (Heilongjiang Province) along with the 100th Motorized)

2nd Far Eastern Front

11th Tank is in Mongolia fighting separatists and the three Motorized Rifle are all there too

so the vast majority of China is not occupied by the Soviets

also keep in mind that the Soviet units arent exactly undamaged either - 3rd Tank has 500 men and 2 tanks, 50th Airmobile has 200 men, 98th has 300 men, 49th Tank has 2000 men and no tanks, 91st Motorized has 200 men and no tanks

6th Tank and 34th Motorized are probably the best equipped divisions they have left in the Far East - 4000 men and 36 tanks each and both are Category I

As you can see, the Soviet's have in some cases just 2-3% of their initial numbers, and they're the winners!

Its not much of a victory when you have 200 guys still on their feet out of an entire division

FYI - one reason any book would be hard to write is the lack of information from China about that time - there is very little information out there and some of it contradicts itself - even on the TOE of what a Chinese division would have - i.e. whereas the Soviet, US, British and Kenyan forces had a lot more info to work with to get accurate sourcebooks on them

And that tells you the Chinese are in so much worse condition doesn't it....
If they weren't the Soviets wouldn't have withdrawn so many units. They'd probably have had to keep sending reinforcements.
The whole point of them plastering Northern China with nukes was to wipe out the Chinese forces and free up probably hundreds of thousands of troops (plus untold numbers of support units, vehicles and supplies) and send them to other theatres, mainly Europe, but I believe (without double checking) some went to the Middle East and potentially Korea.

Oh I agree with you Legbreaker (look I said that and the world didnt end :D ) about the condition of the Chinese units anywhere near where the Soviet fronts were

And even if Chinese units survived intact in the south or central part of the country most likely many of them were garrison units - meaning that they would have been artillery heavy units with a lot of foot infantry - i.e. even if they still had any command and control left for China those divisions are not going to be ones you can move

and I will look thru my copy of the Soviet vehicle guide but you are right - there were definitely units that got moved after China got NUKED - definitely to Europe and I think the Middle East as well

I'd be quite surprised if the southern units had much in the way of modern equipment, particularly artillery, armour and other vehicles. Much of that would have been required at the front (to get nuked a little later) and the "garrison" and training units equipped with cast offs and left overs.

actually those units had a lot of artillery - but most of it was older artillery or fixed emplacements (i.e. coastal artillery, AA units, etc..) versus towed and mobile systems - so basically good garrison units - think German Army coastal defense divisions during WWII

But weren't most of those emplacements on the Soviet border and therefore likely destroyed VERY early on.
Anything more mobile though is surely in the south with the 2nd and 3rd line units. Certainly wouldn't have done anyone any good up north where the old 37mm AT guns, etc just bounce off even old T-55's.

A lot of the garrison units - i.e. coastal defense units - were still facing Taiwan - as well as providing security around Hong Kong and the like - so most likely there are still a good number of intact Chinese divisions in the south and central part of the country - but ones that basically have almost no armor or transport with artillery, mortars, etc. - but no real to move around except with draft animals or by foot

so while they provide a good source of security for whatever warlord they are answering to they really present no threat to what is left of the Soviet forces that are still occupying Manchuria and Mongolia

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

And no wonder either really considering they're camped out in the most heavily nuked region on the planet. My ex comes from that area, it's not the most hospitable place at the best of times. Add in radiation and the horrifically cold winters...

Units originally in China but then transferred (per canon Soviet Vehicle Guide )

1st Tank Division - sent to Europe in July 1997

9th Guards Tank Division - sent to China from Europe and then brought back in 1997 (unknown date)

18th Guards Tank Division - sent to China in early 1996 and then sent back to the West in summer of 1997 to Bulgaria

27th Tank Division - sent to Far East and then back to Europe for summer 1998 offensive

34th Tank Division - sent to Far East but limited action (early 1996) then returned in summer of 1997 for Bulgarian front

31st Motorized Rifle Division - China from the start, then transferred to western Siberia to put down revolt - mid-1998

33rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East mid-1996 then sent to Europe in summer 1997 for the Bulgarian front

37th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East shortly after the war with China began then back to Leningrad after China defeated

38th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China (limited action) then Korea

70th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China then back to Europe but nuked and only 100 survivors

70th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China, almost destroyed, 200 survivors in Tomsk

73rd Motorized Rifle Division - committed after initial invasion into China then sent to Siberia for security mid-1997

78th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Sinkiang Western China 1996-97 and on occupation duty till mid-1998 then Siberia

FYI this is the only canon reference to the Soviets invading Sinkiang or occupying it

102nd Motorized Rifle Division - China on occupation duty 1996, then Eastern Siberia unknown date

116th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China and almost destroyed in spring offensive 1996 - survivors withdrawn to Siberia after China collapse

118th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East division part of the drive on Peking - now in Eastern Siberia since mid-1997

128th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Far East in mid-1996 then to Poland summer of 1998 and nuked and nearly destroyed

173rd Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

194th Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

342nd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China in 1995, almost destroyed, survivors withdrawn to Western Siberia early 1998

6th Guards Air Assault Division - in China 1996 then Alaska in 1997

14th Air Assault Brigade - part of initial invasion of China sent to Austria for 1998 offensive

106th Guards Air Assault Division - part of initial invasion of China then to Poland during initial NATO offensive

203rd Air Assault - part of initial invasion of China then to Korea

63rd Naval Infantry - limited action against China then to Korea

32nd Attack Helicopter Regiment - in China when it collapsed then sent to Iran

Destroyed by the Chinese - 2 tank divisions, 12 motorized rifle divisions and 2 East German divisions

93rd Tank Division (category I) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

95th Tank Division (category II) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

47th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (survivors with the 39th GRMD in Poland) (spring offensive 1996)

68th Motorized Rifle Division (spring offensive 1996)

85th Motorized Rifle Division (1995 Chinese counterattack) (survivors incorporated into the 56th MRD)

112th Motorized Rifle Division (division cut off and lost late 1997 may be survivors - possibly destroyed by marauders/Chinese remnants?)

133rd Motorized Rifle Division - upgraded to Category I and then sent to China and lost in spring 1996 offensive

139th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Manchuria in late 1996 and shattered almost immediately - may be survivors but no contact since 1997

146th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed late 1995 Chinese offensive by militia units

148th Motorized Rifle Division - nuked and thought to be destroyed by the Soviets in the fall of 1997 but may be survivors - unknown

160th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in 1995 Chinese counteroffensive

210th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in early 1996 at end of China 1995 counteroffensive

253rd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China late 1996, survivors joined 5th Tank Division late 1998-early 1999

300th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China from Mongolia after upgrade to category I, destroyed by China 1995 counteroffensive


Two East German divisions - dont remember date they were lost (1995?)

Mutinied and in China still - 4 motorized rifle divisions

101st Motorized Rifle Division (late 1998)

141st Motorized Rifle Division - sent into action spring of 1997 - mauled by Chinese in their last offensive - stopped answering orders - unknown location

153rd Motorized Rifle Division - almost destroyed in last Chinese offensive in mid-1997 and mutinied in late 1998

156th Motorized Rifle Division - assigned to anti-partisan activities in China late 1996 and mutinied in late 1997 - marched back to Siberia

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition. Here's what the 2nd edition Soviet Vehicle Guide has in addition:

Bulgarian 5th Tank Group

Disbanded in the early 1990s, this unit was reformed using cadres from other Bulgarian Tank Brigades, reinforced with a battalion of motorized infantry from the 7th MRD, and sent to the Chinese Front.
In early the unit commander with drew his forces from the front and began the long march home. As of 1 July 2000 the unit is a little west of Lake Baikal
Subordinate: Soviet 17th Army
Current Location Chermkovo, USSR
Manpower 300

Polish 4th "Pomeranian" MRD

The 4th was a prewar Polish Division shipped to the Far Eastern Front in late 1995 in response for troops by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of China the division was assigned to the Soviet 5th Army, where it remains.
Subordination: Soviet 5th Army
Current Location: Manchuria
MAnpower: 1000
Tanks: 5 T-55

Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

NATO Vehicle Guide 1st edition

German 29th Panzer Division/DDR 9th Panzer Division.

"The division was formed on 23 June 1996 by order of the East German government to replace one of the divisions destroyed in the Far East. It was designated 9th Panzer Division in honor of its predecessor."

German 211th Panzergrenadier Division/DDR 11th Motorized Rifle Division

"Originally part of the East German Army, the unit was formed up on 12 July 1996 as 11th Motorized Rifle Division. It was supposed to replace the original 11th MRD which had been destroyed in fighting in Northern China"


Well, 2nd ed added info on Warsaw Pact allies otherwise true it was cut and paste with some modifications for the divergent history, probably more like 90% but anyways doesn't really matter. I have both. I bet you do too.