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Enfield 04-12-2021 08:34 PM

Getting a Farm Going
 
My campaign is going to be focused on a group of survivors mostly civilians, trying to get an abandoned farm going. It is in Western Washington (Cascadia, as per the Pacific Northwest Sourcebook) The players love the idea of following the Proconsul but he is nowhere near where they are. They have neither a vehicle nor horses at the moment, so he is just a voice on the radio they hear making inspiring speeches.

I worked out a series of tasks for the characters to get the farm up and running, but are there any things I'm missing?

1. Figure out how to do farming. None of the civilians or PCs are farmers.

2. Plow, seed, irrigate, care for the crops. They can find a silo with wheat seed, and bins with potato, carrot, peas and beans.

3. Figure out how to get the well working.

4. Find fuel for the diesel generator

5. Find machinery for the farm

6. At present, the group have MREs but there are 11 people with the group and they will only last another 24 days. Food is also going to be a problem.

My intention is to make the first phase of the campaign about them gaining control of the farm. Then I may have other events happen after that, but I feel that in a way the mini adventures will almost write themselves as they will have to forage and scrounge the area.

wolffhound79 04-12-2021 10:55 PM

That sounds interesting. I be interested to hear updates. Sounds like one of those reality survivor shows of a group of people trying to rebuild after a natural disaster.

mpipes 04-13-2021 12:44 AM

They are also going to need to clear out the fields. After even just a full year of no agricultural activity, a lot of undergrowth will be there. Easiest way is slash and burn.

Plowing is going to be a bitch. If you have a horse plow, you still need a trained horse or mule, and the harness to attach the plow to the horse/mule.

You need a tractor, then to attach to the tractor you need a plow (minimum), a bush hog, a planter, a fertilizer spreader, and a sprayer (assuming there are any insecticides around). The sprayer can double as a water sprayer as well.

If trying to raise livestock, you need a hay bailer, a cutter, and a hay rake. Of course you can opt for round bails, but that is really not recommended for horses.

Legbreaker 04-13-2021 01:27 AM

I suspect they'd want to start small - a patch large enough to support just themselves plus a few extra bodies. Keeping things small to begin with should keep it manageable with only hand tools and whatever small, manpowered equipment they can scrounge up to begin with.
Definitely don't want to go with a monoculture, but grow numerous different types of crops just in case of disease, pests, etc attacking one (or more) of them.

CraigD6er 04-13-2021 02:58 AM

Interesting. As they have neither horse nor vehicle to start with it is going to be a massive amount of work to manage a farm with 11 people. Farming isn't an instant process and they are going to have to become hunter/gatherers whilst the crops come in. Assuming someone over the radio can talk them through what to do, there is still a massive learning curve for people that haven't perhaps even grown vegetables themselves; it is also a lot of hard labour for people that may not be used to it. I have a couple of inherited books showing both hand tools and horse drawn farm implements. Firstly clearing the land of the vegetation that has sprung up after any period of neglect. Without horses, you're looking at breast ploughs if they want furrows, hand sowing or maybe a fiddle spreader to sow the seeds at some point, hoes to keep the weeds down and prevent them strangling your crop, sickles or scythes to harvest the grain (a trained farm hand with a scythe can possibly do an acre of wheat a day, which may yield 4-5000 loaves if the crop is very good and there is little to no wastage at any stage of the processing), flails or similar to process (threshing/winnowing) it. That may produce 6 or 7 bushels per day, for experienced farm hands with no interruptions, and your acre will produce 40-50 bushels. All of that assumes that someone knows what these tools are and can find heritage ones or make them and then learn how to use them, otherwise it's really backwards (and backbreaking) using make-do tools. Even in the early twentieth century when farm implements were far more common, labour was a massive drain on a community. One source I have suggested an average English farm could keep a large staff busy over the winter just processing the grain they'd harvested. That's without maintenance of fences and buildings, looking after any livestock, and in this setting guarding against marauders or wild animals etc.
Depending on the terrain and climate, there is drainage and watering to manage, pests to be kept down (insects, small mammals and birds). There's the threat of a bad harvest, blight, storm damage and more. One bad event and the years produce is lost. If all does go well, then next year you prepare the ground and repeat, ad nauseam.
Assuming all goes well, 5,000 loaves will provide for these 11 people for a year, but at less than subsistance level, especially given the work they are doing and the calories they are burning through. So they are going to need to diversify. Fruits, root crops etc to make up the balance, plus whatever they can hunt or fish.

Enfield 04-13-2021 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpipes (Post 87206)
They are also going to need to clear out the fields. After even just a full year of no agricultural activity, a lot of undergrowth will be there. Easiest way is slash and burn.

Plowing is going to be a bitch. If you have a horse plow, you still need a trained horse or mule, and the harness to attach the plow to the horse/mule.

You need a tractor, then to attach to the tractor you need a plow (minimum), a bush hog, a planter, a fertilizer spreader, and a sprayer (assuming there are any insecticides around). The sprayer can double as a water sprayer as well.

If trying to raise livestock, you need a hay bailer, a cutter, and a hay rake. Of course you can opt for round bails, but that is really not recommended for horses.


When I was researching Kettle Falls, there are several construction and farm equipment companies based out of it and Colville, so I will be using a scrounge table to see if they can get the right equipment.

I decided that there are two small communities within reach that will refuse to take in any new people but will trade with peaceful travelers. One community will be based on the Everytown from 2013, so they can also perform tasks for them in exchange for some of the surplus goods from there.

Enfield 04-13-2021 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 87207)
I suspect they'd want to start small - a patch large enough to support just themselves plus a few extra bodies. Keeping things small to begin with should keep it manageable with only hand tools and whatever small, manpowered equipment they can scrounge up to begin with.
Definitely don't want to go with a monoculture, but grow numerous different types of crops just in case of disease, pests, etc attacking one (or more) of them.

Keeping things small may work for them. The idea of a variety of crops is a good idea too. I take it you are referring to a variety of cereals, like say corn, wheat, oats, etc?

Enfield 04-13-2021 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigD6er (Post 87208)
Interesting. As they have neither horse nor vehicle to start with it is going to be a massive amount of work to manage a farm with 11 people. Farming isn't an instant process and they are going to have to become hunter/gatherers whilst the crops come in. Assuming someone over the radio can talk them through what to do, there is still a massive learning curve for people that haven't perhaps even grown vegetables themselves; it is also a lot of hard labour for people that may not be used to it. I have a couple of inherited books showing both hand tools and horse drawn farm implements. Firstly clearing the land of the vegetation that has sprung up after any period of neglect. Without horses, you're looking at breast ploughs if they want furrows, hand sowing or maybe a fiddle spreader to sow the seeds at some point, hoes to keep the weeds down and prevent them strangling your crop, sickles or scythes to harvest the grain (a trained farm hand with a scythe can possibly do an acre of wheat a day, which may yield 4-5000 loaves if the crop is very good and there is little to no wastage at any stage of the processing), flails or similar to process (threshing/winnowing) it. That may produce 6 or 7 bushels per day, for experienced farm hands with no interruptions, and your acre will produce 40-50 bushels. All of that assumes that someone knows what these tools are and can find heritage ones or make them and then learn how to use them, otherwise it's really backwards (and backbreaking) using make-do tools. Even in the early twentieth century when farm implements were far more common, labour was a massive drain on a community. One source I have suggested an average English farm could keep a large staff busy over the winter just processing the grain they'd harvested. That's without maintenance of fences and buildings, looking after any livestock, and in this setting guarding against marauders or wild animals etc.
Depending on the terrain and climate, there is drainage and watering to manage, pests to be kept down (insects, small mammals and birds). There's the threat of a bad harvest, blight, storm damage and more. One bad event and the years produce is lost. If all does go well, then next year you prepare the ground and repeat, ad nauseam.
Assuming all goes well, 5,000 loaves will provide for these 11 people for a year, but at less than subsistance level, especially given the work they are doing and the calories they are burning through. So they are going to need to diversify. Fruits, root crops etc to make up the balance, plus whatever they can hunt or fish.

One thing I want to do is have their shortwave contact with the Proconsul's people give them advice. That will be one source of information. Your ticking off the points above is well taken. I have a hard time imagining the people in the group managing a farm without heavy equipment. I knew a young woman from Nepal who was an actual peasant, as an example and it was kind of shocking how good she was at manual labour. I don't think even modern farmhands in North American could manage what she did. (For example she could mow a lawn with a machete as efficiently as a weed whacker with the neatness and consistency of a professional landscaper)

One thing I was wondering about is how well the orchards that are in the Okanagan Valley would have fared. I don't know how well they will last if any of them are untended.

Silent Hunter UK 04-13-2021 04:24 AM

Finding an intact library with books on farming would be very helpful.

Legbreaker 04-13-2021 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enfield (Post 87210)
I take it you are referring to a variety of cereals, like say corn, wheat, oats, etc?

Corn isn't very economical for the space required, and neither are most other grains.
They'd be best served growing higher yield per area crops such as potatoes, carrots, bean, tomato, pumpkin, etc. Basically what you might find in the average backyard garden.
Save the grains for later when they'd obtained a way to till larger areas.

Animals are another item that can wait to begin with, although if they do happen to come across some cows, sheep or whatever, there's no point not grabbing them, provided they've got a secure field to put them in (and winter shelter if it's an area that would require that). That said, a small herd of goats or pigs will do wonders when it comes to clearing away weeds, and pigs have the added bonus of digging up the earth for you too.
Chickens are likewise great to have scratching around, eating pests and fertilising as they go.

Once they obtain livestock they're going to have to think about predators too, both four and two legged. Dealing with them might involve locking the animals away in a barn at night, posting sentries, or hunting potential predators (or even all three and more options).

After harvesting, vermin could become a major problem. Mice LOVE food stores, especially grains.... https://youtu.be/rAdNJ1jczVI Note that's happening now at a time when baits, electronic repellents, etc are all readily available.

Silent Hunter UK 04-13-2021 04:45 AM

Cats are good for vermin. Cute too.

Legbreaker 04-13-2021 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK (Post 87214)
Cats are good for vermin. Cute too.

Not exactly terrible as emergency rations either.....

Olefin 04-13-2021 08:51 AM

Also keep in mind are you just farming to produce food only for the 11 people or are you looking to get something you may be able to use for trade or even biomass for ethanol fuel. And the choice of crops is important as some vegetables keep much longer than others and thus will provide a longer duration source of food.

Finding someone who can show them how to properly jar tomatoes for instance can lead to them having to search abandoned houses for canning jars or containers that could be used.

Also they should be looking for ways they can maximize growing that wont require a lot of fuel or clearing/plowing land - you can grow mushrooms inside your house if you know how to, potted tomato and pepper plants, potatoes grown using dirt in large garbage cans.

Enfield 04-13-2021 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 87213)
Corn isn't very economical for the space required, and neither are most other grains.
They'd be best served growing higher yield per area crops such as potatoes, carrots, bean, tomato, pumpkin, etc. Basically what you might find in the average backyard garden.
Save the grains for later when they'd obtained a way to till larger areas.

Animals are another item that can wait to begin with, although if they do happen to come across some cows, sheep or whatever, there's no point not grabbing them, provided they've got a secure field to put them in (and winter shelter if it's an area that would require that). That said, a small herd of goats or pigs will do wonders when it comes to clearing away weeds, and pigs have the added bonus of digging up the earth for you too.
Chickens are likewise great to have scratching around, eating pests and fertilising as they go.

Once they obtain livestock they're going to have to think about predators too, both four and two legged. Dealing with them might involve locking the animals away in a barn at night, posting sentries, or hunting potential predators (or even all three and more options).

After harvesting, vermin could become a major problem. Mice LOVE food stores, especially grains.... https://youtu.be/rAdNJ1jczVI Note that's happening now at a time when baits, electronic repellents, etc are all readily available.

Good point on the grains. I think that the other problem with them too is that other than sweet corn they require a lot of processing, threshing, husking, etc.

And geeze, I didn't even think of the vermin problem. Rats and mice will be a huge issue. How good are they at getting into food bins and silos?

Enfield 04-13-2021 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 87216)
Also keep in mind are you just farming to produce food only for the 11 people or are you looking to get something you may be able to use for trade or even biomass for ethanol fuel. And the choice of crops is important as some vegetables keep much longer than others and thus will provide a longer duration source of food.

Finding someone who can show them how to properly jar tomatoes for instance can lead to them having to search abandoned houses for canning jars or containers that could be used.

Also they should be looking for ways they can maximize growing that wont require a lot of fuel or clearing/plowing land - you can grow mushrooms inside your house if you know how to, potted tomato and pepper plants, potatoes grown using dirt in large garbage cans.

Thanks, these are also very good points. I was assuming that they'd be growing crops. I think as far as the group goes, they may just be thinking of trying to survive the year.

What kinds of vegetables keep longer? Things like potatoes?

Vespers War 04-13-2021 06:04 PM

On the animal side, rabbits are a surprisingly good animal to raise if you can keep them safe, clean, and fed. A herd of cows produces about 20% of their mass as harvestable meat per year. Rabbits or chickens are 500%, and rabbits can be fed more things that aren't edible for humans. An acre of hutches (which sounds ridiculous, I know, but this was being researched for space stations) running efficiently will produce 145 pounds of meat per day. Their manure is also better for fertilizer than cow, horse, or chicken, and it won't burn plants if it's not composted properly.

For preservation, winter squash, potatoes, and onions will last a long time if stored in a cool, dry area. Some other root crops can be left in the ground during winter in cool areas if they're covered with a thick layer of leaves or straw. (This also makes them less visible to raiders or scavengers).

Lots of stuff can be dried, which will keep for months or years. It's (ironically) a bit water-intensive, since most things should be blanched before drying and water's often needed for reconstitution, but it'll preserve food. Even without a purpose-built dehydrator, vegetables can be dried near a stove or with sunlight.

StainlessSteelCynic 04-13-2021 07:19 PM

Have the PCs be taught the Ruth Stout method of gardening, it partially mitigates some of the main issues that complete newcomers to farming would have to deal with - it's not so labour intensive, it doesn't need as much water, it doesn't need weeding. But it is not without it's own negatives, it requires nitrogen which can, however, be conveniently supplied by fresh grass.
Much better detail here: -
https://www.bigblogofgardening.com/g...-stout-method/

And as an example of how effective it can be, how does 337 pounds of potatoes sound? Details in the following video: -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlratwBT5OI

The YouTube channel where that video is from is definitely worth browsing, they explore some questions we typically don't think of, such as, can you eat grass, how to make a root cellar out of an old chest freezer and so on.

Raellus 04-13-2021 08:00 PM

3 Sisters
 
What about the Native Americans' "Three Sisters" method of planting beans, squash, and corn all together? It's pretty efficient in terms of labor, and the space-to-yield ratio is favorable.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/blogs/bl...sisters-garden

Here's a quote from the blog:

"Corn provides tall stalks for the beans to climb so that they are not out-competed by sprawling squash vines. Beans provide nitrogen to fertilize the soil while also stabilizing the tall corn during heavy winds. Beans are nitrogen-fixers meaning they host rhizobia on their roots that can take nitrogen, a much needed plant nutrient, from the air and convert it into forms that can be absorbed by plant roots. The large leaves of squash plants shade the ground which helps retain soil moisture and prevent weeds."

https://gardening.cals.cornell.edu/l...three-sisters/

-

Enfield 04-13-2021 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vespers War (Post 87220)
On the animal side, rabbits are a surprisingly good animal to raise if you can keep them safe, clean, and fed. A herd of cows produces about 20% of their mass as harvestable meat per year. Rabbits or chickens are 500%, and rabbits can be fed more things that aren't edible for humans. An acre of hutches (which sounds ridiculous, I know, but this was being researched for space stations) running efficiently will produce 145 pounds of meat per day. Their manure is also better for fertilizer than cow, horse, or chicken, and it won't burn plants if it's not composted properly.

For preservation, winter squash, potatoes, and onions will last a long time if stored in a cool, dry area. Some other root crops can be left in the ground during winter in cool areas if they're covered with a thick layer of leaves or straw. (This also makes them less visible to raiders or scavengers).

Lots of stuff can be dried, which will keep for months or years. It's (ironically) a bit water-intensive, since most things should be blanched before drying and water's often needed for reconstitution, but it'll preserve food. Even without a purpose-built dehydrator, vegetables can be dried near a stove or with sunlight.


Good ideas. The characters might try to explore other farms in the area. I am going with the idea from the module that the area near the Columbia River north of the Coulee Dam is mostly insular. So that could be interesting. I figure that livestock like rabbits or chickens that go feral would be surviving, but they also could trade for them.

Thank you for the ideas on preservation. I will include that in the advice the PCs are given.

Enfield 04-13-2021 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 87221)
Have the PCs be taught the Ruth Stout method of gardening, it partially mitigates some of the main issues that complete newcomers to farming would have to deal with - it's not so labour intensive, it doesn't need as much water, it doesn't need weeding. But it is not without it's own negatives, it requires nitrogen which can, however, be conveniently supplied by fresh grass.
Much better detail here: -
https://www.bigblogofgardening.com/g...-stout-method/

And as an example of how effective it can be, how does 337 pounds of potatoes sound? Details in the following video: -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlratwBT5OI

The YouTube channel where that video is from is definitely worth browsing, they explore some questions we typically don't think of, such as, can you eat grass, how to make a root cellar out of an old chest freezer and so on.

that's a good idea for the options, and I can use the Youtube video as inspiration for their instructions.

Enfield 04-13-2021 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 87222)
What about the Native Americans' "Three Sisters" method of planting beans, squash, and corn all together? It's pretty efficient in terms of labor, and the space-to-yield ratio is favorable.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/blogs/bl...sisters-garden

Here's a quote from the blog:

"Corn provides tall stalks for the beans to climb so that they are not out-competed by sprawling squash vines. Beans provide nitrogen to fertilize the soil while also stabilizing the tall corn during heavy winds. Beans are nitrogen-fixers meaning they host rhizobia on their roots that can take nitrogen, a much needed plant nutrient, from the air and convert it into forms that can be absorbed by plant roots. The large leaves of squash plants shade the ground which helps retain soil moisture and prevent weeds."

https://gardening.cals.cornell.edu/l...three-sisters/

-

There is a major reservation near the area. I wonder if they practice such growing in that area though? Isn't that practice an Eastern tradition?

Olefin 04-13-2021 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enfield (Post 87223)
Good ideas. The characters might try to explore other farms in the area. I am going with the idea from the module that the area near the Columbia River north of the Coulee Dam is mostly insular. So that could be interesting. I figure that livestock like rabbits or chickens that go feral would be surviving, but they also could trade for them.

Thank you for the ideas on preservation. I will include that in the advice the PCs are given.

Good article on vegetables that can be left in the ground for your players for the farm - https://lovelygreens.com/storing-roo...0and%20carrots.

Milano 04-13-2021 10:04 PM

I am only a rancher here in California but, as for agriculture I know that it all depends upon water, weather, and luck. If I were to go about it I would:

1st.. Catch Rabbits. For an immediate food source. Easy to breed. Cheap. Food is fairly easy to get for them; weeds, grass, flowers etc.

2nd... get a water source. Spring Boxes are easy to build. A redwood box dug into the ground about 3 or 4 feet. Pipe at the bottom going down hill into a storage tank. Pump water to high elevation and gravity feed from there.

3rd.. Harvesting and ground work equipment would be tough to maintain I think. Far harder to find or make the correct bushings for a disk plow than that of a Chevy pickup.

4th.. Cultivating ground for farming. Cow manure, rabbit offal, etc is a good fertilizer in lieu of the real stuff! Remember that someone with civil engineering could get the fall right for irrigating also.

4th.. Start transplants. Efficiency is found by growing transplants and planting the little started plants into actual farm fields. Think Green House to start them.

5th.. Get Cows and horses. The West Wasn't won on Carrots. (Had to plug my livelihood.) (Also Vesper, depending upon breed of cow, health etc etc. We look for a 60 to 65% yield. It takes me about 7 months of normal natural grass to get a 600 to 700 pound steer and I live in a lackluster enviroment.)

6th.. Pesticides, weeding, and water. Irrigation pipe would be fairly easy to find, especially in suburbs. 3/4" pvc with 1/8" holes drilled into it would work and that is found in every yard, with a shovel.

7th.. Rotation due to season. Strawberries do NOT do well in the rain for example. They get destroyed.

8th.. harvesting storage etc. I would again go with cats. I will also admit that this is where my knowledge starts failing me.

I hope I'm not being too wordy but there is quite alot of roll playing that can go into this and I am interested to see how this plays out with your group. Once it got going it is viable.

Legbreaker 04-13-2021 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 87221)
...it requires nitrogen...

Rotating or companion planting a crop of legumes helps a LOT to fix nitrogen in the soil for use by other plants. https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edi...re-legumes.htm

Legbreaker 04-13-2021 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enfield (Post 87218)
How good are they at getting into food bins and silos?

My house is damn near airtight, yet I'm still getting them inside. :mad:

Enfield 04-13-2021 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 87226)
Good article on vegetables that can be left in the ground for your players for the farm - https://lovelygreens.com/storing-roo...0and%20carrots.

Thanks!

Enfield 04-13-2021 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 87229)
My house is damn near airtight, yet I'm still getting them inside. :mad:

Poison apparently works quite well. What do you use?

Enfield 04-14-2021 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milano (Post 87227)
I am only a rancher here in California but, as for agriculture I know that it all depends upon water, weather, and luck. If I were to go about it I would:

1st.. Catch Rabbits. For an immediate food source. Easy to breed. Cheap. Food is fairly easy to get for them; weeds, grass, flowers etc.

2nd... get a water source. Spring Boxes are easy to build. A redwood box dug into the ground about 3 or 4 feet. Pipe at the bottom going down hill into a storage tank. Pump water to high elevation and gravity feed from there.

3rd.. Harvesting and ground work equipment would be tough to maintain I think. Far harder to find or make the correct bushings for a disk plow than that of a Chevy pickup.

4th.. Cultivating ground for farming. Cow manure, rabbit offal, etc is a good fertilizer in lieu of the real stuff! Remember that someone with civil engineering could get the fall right for irrigating also.

4th.. Start transplants. Efficiency is found by growing transplants and planting the little started plants into actual farm fields. Think Green House to start them.

5th.. Get Cows and horses. The West Wasn't won on Carrots. (Had to plug my livelihood.) (Also Vesper, depending upon breed of cow, health etc etc. We look for a 60 to 65% yield. It takes me about 7 months of normal natural grass to get a 600 to 700 pound steer and I live in a lackluster enviroment.)

6th.. Pesticides, weeding, and water. Irrigation pipe would be fairly easy to find, especially in suburbs. 3/4" pvc with 1/8" holes drilled into it would work and that is found in every yard, with a shovel.

7th.. Rotation due to season. Strawberries do NOT do well in the rain for example. They get destroyed.

8th.. harvesting storage etc. I would again go with cats. I will also admit that this is where my knowledge starts failing me.

I hope I'm not being too wordy but there is quite alot of roll playing that can go into this and I am interested to see how this plays out with your group. Once it got going it is viable.

Thank you for the recommendations for planning.

As I understand it, the Okanagan Valley is a somewhat dry climate but works well for orchard crops. Do you know anything about ranching in that part of the state?

One thing I have often observed when watching post apocalyptic TV and movies is how often characters avoid areas in rural towns where they might have construction equipment, farming equipment, etc. If the rural folk have been driven out by hordes of refugees or marauders, it seems to me that there might still be heavy equipment to scavenge. One problem will be that they will not be experienced at handling or maintaining it if they do find it. The other will probably be finding a supply of diesel or getting the vehicles converted to alternate fuel.

One good thing the party does have is a well, which they have to maintain and clear contaminants from.

Vespers War 04-14-2021 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enfield (Post 87232)
Thank you for the recommendations for planning.

As I understand it, the Okanagan Valley is a somewhat dry climate but works well for orchard crops. Do you know anything about ranching in that part of the state?

Portions of a 2011 census of crops and farm animals for Thompson-Okanagan:
Grain 6,500 hectares
Corn for silage 3,344 ha
Hay and pasture 437,000 ha
Alfalfa 42,418 ha
Hay 61,162 ha
Potatoes 170 ha
Fruits, berries and nuts 9,598 ha
Field grown vegetables 887 ha

Hens and chickens 1,808,625
Cattle and calves 171,000
Pigs 1,135
Sheep 13,603
Horses and ponies 11,672
Rabbits 987
Goats 3,534

(all from this PDF)

Vespers War 04-14-2021 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 87222)
What about the Native Americans' "Three Sisters" method of planting beans, squash, and corn all together? It's pretty efficient in terms of labor, and the space-to-yield ratio is favorable.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/blogs/bl...sisters-garden

Here's a quote from the blog:

"Corn provides tall stalks for the beans to climb so that they are not out-competed by sprawling squash vines. Beans provide nitrogen to fertilize the soil while also stabilizing the tall corn during heavy winds. Beans are nitrogen-fixers meaning they host rhizobia on their roots that can take nitrogen, a much needed plant nutrient, from the air and convert it into forms that can be absorbed by plant roots. The large leaves of squash plants shade the ground which helps retain soil moisture and prevent weeds."

https://gardening.cals.cornell.edu/l...three-sisters/

-

Long-term, milpa agriculture ends up being basically a five field system, because it follows two years of cultivation with eight years left fallow. It's effective, but it ends up requiring a good amount of space over the long haul because of the long fallow period.

Other crops can also be included - pumpkin, avocado, chili - but I haven't read what the proper spacing of planting is for the additional crops.

swaghauler 04-14-2021 09:12 PM

Keep in mind that if you are not gardening (I highly espouse the Ruth Stout method), that there are three important steps to growing food by the acre (or hectare if you prefer). For visualization, remember that an Acre is the size of a FOOTBALL FIELD (around 100m X 50m wide) and a Hectare is 2.47 times the acre in size (10,000 total meters). This is a big space. The three steps to prepping a field are...

1) INITIAL MULCHING AND NUTRIENT ADD: This is normally done in the fall after the harvest. If you have ever seen a cornfield or wheat field that was harvested, you will see stubs of stalks that are bent over and left to rot. This is INTENTIONAL. Those stalks are putting nutrients back into the soil. This is often leavened with grass cuttings and dead leaves. It is best to let these rot on top of the field ALL WINTER. IF you "breaking in" a new field, you should let this debris molder on top of the field for at least a week. The wetter the better as it promotes rot.

2) EARLY SPRING TURNING: Your field has moldered all winter and you have a good debris cover going. Now it's time to turn over those nutrients that will feed your crops long-term. A MouldBoard Plow or Chisel Plow will cut deep ruts and roll that mulch down into the ground where your crops will feed on it all summer long. Once the field is turned, in comes the "boost nutrients" to be laid on the field for up to a week before the initial planting. These nutrients include Nitrogen and the rapid growth food for your crops. In my neck of the woods that would be cow manure turned into a liquid mixture resembling a thick soup. This goes on top and is allowed to soak in. It's what gives you that "Fresh country air" aroma every spring. After a week, this too gets turned over to ensure the soil is now fully capable of being Furrow Plowed.

Please note that there are several alternatives to using modern fertilizers and these methods are STILL being used today. Some common methods to "season" a field including using a "fish slurry" made up of parts of any fish you ate that were left. These parts (including bones) are ground into a "meal" and added to the ashes from a fire to produce a Potassium-rich compound for poor soils. This is then applied as a "slurry" just like manure is. This is the technique the American Indians showed the Colonists at Plymouth to help them fend off starvation.

Another technique is using human feces and urine. To make this safe, they are burned in a container and their ASHES are added to ash from the fire to prevent the spread of disease. This should also be done with Pig, Chicken, and any other Poultry's wastes. Cow, Horse, Rabbit, or Goat waste can be used as-is. These should all be turned into a slurry to stretch the amount of soil that can be fertilized.

Indeed, URINE (and to a lesser extent feces) is a powerful resource. You can use it to fertilize fields, make explosives or smokeless propellants, and even drugs. It would be a VALUABLE RESOURCE that everyone was expected to provide in a place like Krakow. Putting feces into a sealed plastic container known as a "digestor" will allow you to harvest METHANE gas for cooking or welding. Put in some feces, add a small packet of the microbes found in the product known as RID (used to clean septic tanks and found almost everywhere in the US) and just add water. I'm told you can get a liter of Methane from a liter of treated Digester water. This also has NO IMPACT on your ability to use the feces to fertilize fields later.


3) FURROW PLOWING, DISKING, AND PLANTING: Once the field is "seasoned," you can plow the furrows for planting. We used a 3-Furrow Plow but there are a variety of these plows available. IF you are planting a crop that needs looser soil like lettuce, you will also be using a Disc Plow to break up the soil into a finer grain like sand. Heartier plants like Potatoes or Corn do NOT need the soil to be that fine (which is good because topsoil erosion occurs more frequently in disced soil). This is also the stage where you will Contour Plow so wind won't blow away your topsoil. How you plant will depend on WHAT you plant, as different crops need different spacing (hence my Yields Chart). Once the fields are sown though, you can take a breather before the next step (maintenance of the crops) begins.

That's just a quick overview of how to prep a field for farming.

Milano 04-14-2021 10:02 PM

@ Enfield

After a cursory look throughout the web and browsing through Vesper's PDF, I really cannot give you much help. I get around 17 inches of rain between November and April, on an average year. With that I run a cow on about 25 acres. That is without feeding, which is required if the rain is late the following November. I wish I could give you more but that's about all I've got for you. If the PCs do want to go after a cattle ranch, remember that the fences, corrals, water, etc is a large undertaking. A few cows and a bull is more reasonable.

Enfield 04-15-2021 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vespers War (Post 87234)
Portions of a 2011 census of crops and farm animals for Thompson-Okanagan:
Grain 6,500 hectares
Corn for silage 3,344 ha
Hay and pasture 437,000 ha
Alfalfa 42,418 ha
Hay 61,162 ha
Potatoes 170 ha
Fruits, berries and nuts 9,598 ha
Field grown vegetables 887 ha

Hens and chickens 1,808,625
Cattle and calves 171,000
Pigs 1,135
Sheep 13,603
Horses and ponies 11,672
Rabbits 987
Goats 3,534

(all from this PDF)

I really appreciate your searching for this. While I might have found it myself this saves a lot of time.

Enfield 04-15-2021 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaghauler (Post 87238)
Keep in mind that if you are not gardening (I highly espouse the Ruth Stout method), that there are three important steps to growing food by the acre (or hectare if you prefer). For visualization, remember that an Acre is the size of a FOOTBALL FIELD (around 100m X 50m wide) and a Hectare is 2.47 times the acre in size (10,000 total meters). This is a big space. The three steps to prepping a field are...

1) INITIAL MULCHING AND NUTRIENT ADD: This is normally done in the fall after the harvest. If you have ever seen a cornfield or wheat field that was harvested, you will see stubs of stalks that are bent over and left to rot. This is INTENTIONAL. Those stalks are putting nutrients back into the soil. This is often leavened with grass cuttings and dead leaves. It is best to let these rot on top of the field ALL WINTER. IF you "breaking in" a new field, you should let this debris molder on top of the field for at least a week. The wetter the better as it promotes rot.

2) EARLY SPRING TURNING: Your field has moldered all winter and you have a good debris cover going. Now it's time to turn over those nutrients that will feed your crops long-term. A MouldBoard Plow or Chisel Plow will cut deep ruts and roll that mulch down into the ground where your crops will feed on it all summer long. Once the field is turned, in comes the "boost nutrients" to be laid on the field for up to a week before the initial planting. These nutrients include Nitrogen and the rapid growth food for your crops. In my neck of the woods that would be cow manure turned into a liquid mixture resembling a thick soup. This goes on top and is allowed to soak in. It's what gives you that "Fresh country air" aroma every spring. After a week, this too gets turned over to ensure the soil is now fully capable of being Furrow Plowed.

Please note that there are several alternatives to using modern fertilizers and these methods are STILL being used today. Some common methods to "season" a field including using a "fish slurry" made up of parts of any fish you ate that were left. These parts (including bones) are ground into a "meal" and added to the ashes from a fire to produce a Potassium-rich compound for poor soils. This is then applied as a "slurry" just like manure is. This is the technique the American Indians showed the Colonists at Plymouth to help them fend off starvation.

Another technique is using human feces and urine. To make this safe, they are burned in a container and their ASHES are added to ash from the fire to prevent the spread of disease. This should also be done with Pig, Chicken, and any other Poultry's wastes. Cow, Horse, Rabbit, or Goat waste can be used as-is. These should all be turned into a slurry to stretch the amount of soil that can be fertilized.

Indeed, URINE (and to a lesser extent feces) is a powerful resource. You can use it to fertilize fields, make explosives or smokeless propellants, and even drugs. It would be a VALUABLE RESOURCE that everyone was expected to provide in a place like Krakow. Putting feces into a sealed plastic container known as a "digestor" will allow you to harvest METHANE gas for cooking or welding. Put in some feces, add a small packet of the microbes found in the product known as RID (used to clean septic tanks and found almost everywhere in the US) and just add water. I'm told you can get a liter of Methane from a liter of treated Digester water. This also has NO IMPACT on your ability to use the feces to fertilize fields later.


3) FURROW PLOWING, DISKING, AND PLANTING: Once the field is "seasoned," you can plow the furrows for planting. We used a 3-Furrow Plow but there are a variety of these plows available. IF you are planting a crop that needs looser soil like lettuce, you will also be using a Disc Plow to break up the soil into a finer grain like sand. Heartier plants like Potatoes or Corn do NOT need the soil to be that fine (which is good because topsoil erosion occurs more frequently in disced soil). This is also the stage where you will Contour Plow so wind won't blow away your topsoil. How you plant will depend on WHAT you plant, as different crops need different spacing (hence my Yields Chart). Once the fields are sown though, you can take a breather before the next step (maintenance of the crops) begins.

That's just a quick overview of how to prep a field for farming.

much appreciated. I think being able to explain this will lend a lot of authenticity to the messages from Cascadia as well as emphasizing the need for certain technology to make the efforts easier.

Enfield 04-15-2021 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milano (Post 87239)
@ Enfield

After a cursory look throughout the web and browsing through Vesper's PDF, I really cannot give you much help. I get around 17 inches of rain between November and April, on an average year. With that I run a cow on about 25 acres. That is without feeding, which is required if the rain is late the following November. I wish I could give you more but that's about all I've got for you. If the PCs do want to go after a cattle ranch, remember that the fences, corrals, water, etc is a large undertaking. A few cows and a bull is more reasonable.

Sorry, is that 25 or 2.5? And is that about 2.5 (or 25) per cow? If there is a lack of rain (I Understand that the Okanagan Valley is pretty dry) will there not be enough grass regrowth?

Milano 04-15-2021 10:04 AM

That is 25 acres per cow and calf. You seem interested so I'll go into some details.

Our average rainfall is 17". So, last year we had 13" of rain and I had 120 Cows/pairs... this year I've gotten 8". I own and lease around 3,200 acres. Last year I had the stocking rate of 27 ac/cow.. in a week or two I'll be hope to be able to keep 80 Cows, thus 40 ac/cow. But the numbers do not reflect the timing and number of storms to get the rain fall.

Without going crazy on details for a game, that's the jist of it. Remember that acreage is on a two-dimensional plane. I live in mountains, so acreage is relative. There is also the measure of AUMs. Or Animal Unit Months. It's way more precise, but it's limiting in that the samples must be taken regularly to come up with an average.

There is science to agriculture but there is more intuition and wisdom that goes into it. (Remember that Wisdom is what we call our mistakes.)

Enfield 04-15-2021 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milano (Post 87247)
That is 25 acres per cow and calf. You seem interested so I'll go into some details.

Our average rainfall is 17". So, last year we had 13" of rain and I had 120 Cows/pairs... this year I've gotten 8". I own and lease around 3,200 acres. Last year I had the stocking rate of 27 ac/cow.. in a week or two I'll be hope to be able to keep 80 Cows, thus 40 ac/cow. But the numbers do not reflect the timing and number of storms to get the rain fall.

Without going crazy on details for a game, that's the jist of it. Remember that acreage is on a two-dimensional plane. I live in mountains, so acreage is relative. There is also the measure of AUMs. Or Animal Unit Months. It's way more precise, but it's limiting in that the samples must be taken regularly to come up with an average.

There is science to agriculture but there is more intuition and wisdom that goes into it. (Remember that Wisdom is what we call our mistakes.)

Given that this is Twilight 2000 though, I imagine that not only would you have the usual problems of watching out for predators, accidents, bad weather, etc, but also the problem of a lack of law enforcement and maintenance of infrastructure and information systems. How many people do you think you would need to keep that amount of range safe? How many daily hours of work is that?

swaghauler 04-15-2021 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enfield (Post 87249)
Given that this is Twilight 2000 though, I imagine that not only would you have the usual problems of watching out for predators, accidents, bad weather, etc, but also the problem of a lack of law enforcement and maintenance of infrastructure and information systems. How many people do you think you would need to keep that amount of range safe? How many daily hours of work is that?

3200 acres is only 5 miles of terrain. You can ride that [on horseback] in a couple of hours.

Enfield 04-15-2021 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaghauler (Post 87250)
3200 acres is only 5 miles of terrain. You can ride that [on horseback] in a couple of hours.

Do you recommend having cattle dogs?

Legbreaker 04-15-2021 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swaghauler (Post 87250)
3200 acres is only 5 miles of terrain. You can ride that [on horseback] in a couple of hours.

You can, but you can't be everywhere at once either. Somebody up to no good only has to wait in concealment until you pass by on your daily patrol before coming out and doing whatever they're intending to do.

Then there's this small detail in the game rules (2.2, I imagine the other versions are the same):
Quote:

Feeding: All draft animals need to graze for two four-hour periods per day. Horses and mules also require grain if they do any work that day (including being ridden). The amount of grain required is given on the Food Consumption Table on page 273. If they do no work, they need not be fed grain, but must spend all day grazing to make up for it.
Realistic or not, that will seriously restrict mobility unless you've got remounts available or vast amounts of grain to feed your horse.
Note this rule includes animals used for plowing, hauling carts and wagons, harvesting, etc


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