List of European Nuke Strikes?
 

I was wondering... are there any lists or maps showing the European nuke strikes?

I've never seen one anywhere.

I don't recall seeing any definitive Target List for mainland Europe. There was very fine line between the tactical exchange on military targets and the targeting of rear area strategic targets with tactical nuclear warheads. This of course morphed into a full strategic nuclear exchange using long range ballistic weapons with yields near or above the megaton range.

To compile any sort of list, one would have to read all of the European based source material to get information directly from the text. This would be very time consuming and almost certainly reveal at least some contradictions. Many of the references of nuclear strike locations within the various modules seemed to be plot driven, though there is often a direct connection to a past military campaign in the area. Unfortunately, there was never an in depth military history of the war that covered all of the major operations and campaigns.

We might be able to work up a decent Target List for France, Belgium, Mexico and a few other neutrals based upon known oil facilities and important strategic targets.

Benjamin

The map that came with the v.1 boxed set and the similar map that came with Going Home showed the cities that had been nuked (although some could have been reduced to rubble in other ways). As Benjamin says, it would be time consuming to transcribe them all. As a GM I try to keep detailed notes of randomly generated radiated areas that were tac nuke targets.

Thanks for reminding me of this Targan.

I finally got a chance to look at these maps. Cities listed in Parentheses are show as rubble. Given the extent of devastation present on the maps I am going to assume that these are tac nukes.

As for being time consuming I just mapped out 520 canon units so the Strikes will be no problem.

Here are the 88 cities listed as rubble on the 2 maps GDW provided (From The Basic Rules and Going Home Module)

Brest, Belarus
Grodno , Belarus
Antwerpen, Belgium
Gent, Belgium
Prague , Czech
Ostrava, Czech Republic
Lille, France
Berlin, Germany
Bonn, Germany
Borchum, Germany
Bremen, Germany
Dortmund, Germany
Dresden, Germany
Duisburg, Germany
Dusseldorf, Germany
Emmerich, Germany
Erfurt, Germany
Essen, Germany
Frankfurt an Oder, Germany
Gara, Germany
Gorlitz, Germany
Gotha, Germany
Hagen, Germany
Hamburg, Germany
Hannover, Germany
Honnef, Germany
Jena, Germany
Karl-Marx-Stadt, Germany
Kiel, Germany
Koln, Germany
Leipzig, Germany
Lubeck, Germany
Mulheim, Germany
Munchen Gladbach, Germany
Operhausen, Germany
Rees, Germany
Remagen, Germany
Siegen, Germany
Wesel, Germany
Wuppertal, Germany
Zwickau, Germany
Alphen ad Rijn, Netherlands
Amsterdam , Netherlands
Breskens, Netherlands
Delft, Netherlands
Dordrecht, Netherlands
Elten, Netherlands
Gorinchem, Netherlands
Gouda, Netherlands
Haarlem, Netherlands
Hoek van Holland, Netherlands
Katwijk aan Zee, Netherlands
Leiden, Netherlands
Middelharris, Netherlands
Rotterdam, Netherlands
s Gravenhage, Netherlands
Terneuzen, Netherlands
Utrecht, Netherlands
Vllssingen, Netherlands
Zevenaar, Netherlands
Bialystok, Poland
Bydgoszcz, Poland
Bytom, Poland
Chorzow, Poland
Czestochowa, Poland
Elblag, Poland
Gdansk, Poland
Gilwice, Poland
Gorzow Wielkop, Poland
Jelenia Gora, Poland
Katowice, Poland
Kielce, Poland
Loniza, Poland
Olsztyn, Poland
Opole, Poland
Poznan, Poland
Przemysl, Poland
Radom, Poland
Sosnowiec, Poland
Stargard, Poland
Szczecin, Poland
Tarnow, Poland
Warsaw, Poland
Wloclawek, Poland
Wroclaw, Poland
Zabrze, Poland
Kovel , Ukraine
Lviv, Ukraine


Here are Canon strikes I received from Chico (thanks again)

Bytom, Poland (Black Madonna)
Chorzow, Poland (BM)
Czestokowa, Poland (BM)
Gliwice, Poland (BM))
Katowice, Poland (BM)
Nowa Huta, Poland (Free City)
Radom, Poland
Sosnowiec, Poland (BM)
Tarnow, Poland (Soviet Vehicle Guide)
Warsaw, Poland

This makes me think it is going to be a pretty good match. I will however remove several cities on the Rhine which are listed as rubble. The devastation on the Rhine is total, and I don't think the Soviets would have concentrated on those areas (neglecting others). I believe most of the devastation is due to the conflict with the French which I believe did not have any nukes involved. Though if a city has a large refinery I will still probably nuke it.

I reviewed the list given by Kato (taken from basic rules) and disagreed on a few cities. I also found that several were missed. As a result, I tried to complete this list and give it country by country. I left UK aside (as I like the target listed in the game) and I didn’t cover Scandinavia as I consider that it might not have been targeted at all. I also considered that very little city strike hit south-eastern Europe except for one on Ankara (Turkey). However, a number of tactical strikes were registered on the battlefields.

Baltic states region:
- Kaliningrad.

Belarus:
- Brest-Litovsk (Brest)
- Grodno
- Minsk

Ukraine:
- Cerkassy
- Lvov (Lviv)
- Kovel
- Kiev
- Odessa

Poland: report to Kato’s list.

Czech Republic: report to Kato’s list.

Germany: report to Kato’s list.
However, I disagree with Kato on one thing, I considered the Rhineland to be levelled and even add several among the cities that are geographically closed.(such as Frankfurt on Mainz)

Netherlands: entirely agree (poor Dutch).

Belgium: (No reason to bomb Ghent, that is a non-sense)
- Antwerpen
- Ostende
- Brussel

France:
- Lille (several hit on Calais, Cambrai, Denain, Dunkirk, Lille and Valencienne).
- Strasburg
- Le Havre
- Brest
- Lorient (nuclear sub base)
- Toulouse (aircraft and space industries)
I consider that Lyon and Marseille survived leaving two major refineries intact.

Italy:
- Torino
- Milano
- Bologna
- Napoli
- Tarento

Portugal
- Lissabon
- Porto (the city survived but the northern area was nuked because of the refinery there)

Spain
- Barcelona
- Bilbao
- Madrid
- Zaragossa
- Valencia
- Cadiz

Italy, Portugal and Spain were not primary targets but I consider that their industrial centers were hit.

I believe his are cannon listed hits.

Yeah My hits are canon hits but I will map any list someone works out. Mohoender we will have to discuss the warhead size for your strike targets in addition to your OOBs.

Wasn't sure if you have seen my maps (ok now I am sure as I checked the server logs) but this is what I am going for. (These are all canon listed strikes)

Map of CONUS Nuke strikes.
Map of Canadian Nuclear Targets
Map of USSR nuclear strikes.
Map of British Nuclear Targets


A few USSR hits are wrong (because I listened to Google over Chico Doh!). If you have any questions of want an excel file of the hits let me know.

I understood that. I was not saying that I disagreed with Kato. I disagree with cannon. Nevertheless, the level of disagreement is not that high.

A point with which I disagree almost entirely, however, are the Kt/Mt level given per cannon. But, from memory (and according to informations available at the time) they make sense.

When you look at the USA, for exemple, it feels strange when you know what ICBM/SLBM were available to soviet union:

about 30 SS-24 Scalpel (10x550kt MIRV). (not retired)

150 SS-17 Spanker (4x550kt MIRV or 750kt single warhead). (retired in 1994)

200-300 SS-18 Satan (20-25Mt single warhead or 10x550kt MIRV). (not entirely retired or replaced by Mod.5). The 20-25Mt warheads were targeted at US ICBM base and hardened commands.

about 50 SS-13 Savage (750kt single warhead). (retired in 1995)

250-300 SS-25 Sickle (550kt single warhead). (not retired)

SS-N-6 Serb on Yankee I (possibly 1MT but more probably 3x200kt MIRV) (retired in 1994)

250-300 SS-N-8 Sawfly on Delta I and II (1MT single warhead). (not retired but reduced in number)

200-250 SS-N-18 Stingray on Delta III (400kt single warhead or 7x100kt MIRV). (not retired but reduced in number)

120 SS-N-20 sturgeon on Typhoon (10x100kt MIRV). (not retired but reduced in number)

This would be for missiles targeting US alone. As a result, I would expect several 20Mt burst to have occured and several target would have been hit by MIRV instead of single warheads. NATO would certainly have used more MIRV and little high power single warhead. Then, I find logical for the french to have retained their SLBM in reserve.

In Europe, I would expect SRBM and MRBM not to be withdrawn and to see extensive use toward second level targets (cities of Poland and targets in eastern europe, for exemple) and on the battlefield.

These would include

for US: MGM-31A Pershing, MGM-31B Pershing II and MGM-52 Lance. Funny how people focussed on the Pershing (200-250 in US and 150-200 in Germany) while 1000 Lance launcher had been deployed (and more than 2000 missiles manufactured).:D

for Russia: SS-23 Spider (127 and 64 launchers). Scud had been retired since the 1970's and replaced by 400 SS-20 Saber. May be 60 SS-4 sandal (unsure).

for France: Pluton (109 and 70 launchers). Actually these would have been replaced by Hadès prior to the war. 18 SSBS S-3 on the Albion Plateau.

You can expect several of the french Pluton/Hadès to have been launched on Germany and Netherlands.

At last you can add the cruise missiles (but several will not be equipped with nukes).
for US: about 1500.
for the soviets: about 1500.

In addition France would use the ASMP (on Mirage IV, Mirage 2000 and Super Etendard).

For Europe, canon hits aren't everything. There will be small tactical nuke hits as well, where nukes were used against enemy units, airfields, and smaller naval bases or to deny areas to the enemy. There will the remains of backpack-type nukes that were used to take out division or corps HQ (or higher) units, dams, large ammunition storage facilities, and other small but high-value targets.

Yeah those are going to be hard to nail down.

Currently I have the following mapped
T2k Canon
Morrow Project Expanded

I plan to map the following
Mohoender Expanded List
DC Groups
Morrow Project Canon

As I have said before I am willing to map any list someone gives me and my mapping software can support as many options as I am exposed to. Realistically this is currently limited to about 25 options from a restriction on display size, but I can code around that if necessary.

Target list from Nordic sourcebook.

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmö 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
Lingköping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
Göteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.

Nice. Thanks.

I do appreciate the info -- but where did you get the Nordic Sourcebook, and has it been translated into English by anyone yet?

Sob! I think no :(. I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.;)

"Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation, after which time the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks."

If you are really intrested to get that sourcebook in english you should send email to FFE or you can send email to Mr Janne Kemppi who wrote that book. Kemppi is still active in finish scifi, RPG and manga scenes.

which language is it written in ?

Could someone translate it into Engrish then? :p

I had a feeling it was Finnish. Wait, we have a Finn or two registered here don't we?

Necroing this thread:

The Nordic sourcebook is actually in conflict with the finnish translation of the 2.2 main rulebook, which mentions that the Finnish oil refineries are untouched, and in fact no Nordic country was targeted by nuclear weapons.

Actually I think completely ignoring the Nordic sourcebook isn't a bad idea, since the quality of the text isn't too hot and it's frankly full of terribly bad ideas more suited for something like Macho Women With Guns.

No nukes hitting Nordic countries seems odd to me. I would expect at an absolute minimum Norwegian refineries would be hit. Unless they were already devastated fully by conventional weapons.

Agreed. Refineries, power stations, mines and habour facilities all make extremely good and tempting targets. Although the refineries are fairly obvious, anywhere significant repairs could be carried out to shipping would have to be a prime target also. Norway, Denmark and Sweden are ideally located to support Nato naval strength and hinder Soviet naval efforts, not just in the Baltic and North Sea, but in the artic as well.

From Mediterranean Cruise...

Indeed, the Nordic sourcebook and the Finnish Twilight 2000 sourcebook do contradict each other with regards to the state of the Nordic countries. The Finnish sourcebook has this to say about Scandinavia:

I think one of the reasons for this is the different time periods. The Nordic sourcebook was published in 1990 I believe, and it therefore has the v. 1.0 setting, where the USSR is the villain. The Finnish sourcebook is from 1993 as you know, and it provides its own interpretation of v. 2.2, such as Russia instead of the USSR being at war with NATO.

Personally, I agree with the others that the locations as mentioned in the Nordic sourcebook would have been targeted by the Russians.

When I've finished with posting the timeline of the Finnish sourcebook, I'll proceed to posting the state of the world as described in the Finnish sourcebook, as well as information about the state of the Nordic countries as described in the Nordic sourcebook.

That leaves a whole lot of tactical and operational nuke wiggle room.

The V1 and V2 differences make a lot of sense as well.

I believe that virtually no strategic missiles were fired at any target besides those during November 1997 (and again in early 98).
Any nuke fired outside these two periods is almost certainly tactical in nature.

This is not to say every nuke during these periods could be termed strategic though. The ground war continued to rage and as had been the case for several months, tactical nukes were still being used.

It is possible that tactical nukes could have been used throughout the war, from the first shot in China right up to summer 2000. They are unlikely to have been all that common in the latter stages though.

I would disagree, because for the reason mentioned in the 2.2, the finnish petrochemical industry would be mostly useless and of no strategic importance. In a strategic exchange the refineries could be plastered with nuclear weapons, but it's more unlikely to happen in the context of the limited exchange that took place in the 2.2 timeline.

The Nordic countries had ceased to have any strategic importance whatsoever after the NATO-Russia northern front stalled and the naval conflict was mostly over with.

No strategic importance? You are joking right?

Even without oil coming from Norway's north sea oil rigs, an undamaged refinery is of vital importance. It only takes one shipment of oil from somewhere else and suddenly "boom" you've got yourself a mobile division or two.

Note that it wouldn't require an ICBM to do the job either. A sub or even Fast Attack Craft should be able to deliver the package.

I have to agree. Given some of the other industrial infrastructure that was nuked and seemed to be of lesser strategic value, I'd assume pretty much all of Scandinavia's petrochemical processing infrastructure would have been targeted either by conventional or nuclear strikes.

The Finnish and the Swedish armies are the ones in Europe which are practically untouched. The refineries would have a strategic value if they were somewhere else, but as long as there are intact armies to control them, neither NATO or the Russians are going to get use of them.

And by the time the nuclear strikes in Europe start, the conflict in Scandinavia is practically over and neither Finland or Sweden are engaged. Nuking the refineries "just because" doesn't seem to fit in, since there is no benefit in doing so for either NATO or Russia. Might happen in a general strategic exchange, but not in the "couple of warheads at a time" nuclear exchange that takes place in Twilight 2000.

Isn't it specifiically mentioned in one of the modules (Boomer I think) that Norway is targeted by the Soviet during the 1997 strategic exchange?

Yep.

Not to mention the fact that according to the Nordic sourcebook 3/4 of Norway's population was wiped out in the nuclear exchange and its aftermath. If a 1 Mt strike on Oslo doesn't constitute a strategic nuclear attack, I don't know what does.

Much as I like the Finnish sourcebook, this claim about Scandinavia being untouched by nuclear attack strikes me as a flaw. Maybe it was a case of wishful thinking by the authors ("Even if there was a nuclear war, we're so tiny and insignificant that the Russians wouldn't bother to nuke us, no sir... Please, please god let it be so")

Yes, the lack of Scandinavian nuke strikes is completely unbelievable. But blend the two timelines (from canon and the Scandinavian Sourcebook) and you have something good.

The bizarre thing is that its the same guys who wrote the Nordic sourcebook.

Essentially, it's of course up to how you want to see it: there's no real canon to go by here. If I would run a game where nuclear strikes against Finland and Sweden would figure, I'd probably adjust the list given in the Nordic sourcebook, since the list is sorta counter-intuitive. The oil refineries are way overprioritized over actual military assets, considering the distance to oil production and the narrow seaways to the refineries, they can be dealt with differently.

Well that statement is just completely wrong.

While I can't say with any certainty about Sweden without refering back to the books, I know for a fact Finland STRONGLY resisted both Soviet and NATO offensives through their country. They fought so hard and effectively they forced the Soviet offensive against NATO forces in Norway to falter and the Nato command to reassess their plans on a strategic scale after they too met with effective military resistance.

Do you really think the troops on the ground wouldn't have shot back at the Finns? Can you honestly say the industry and resources Finland possesses wouldn't have been subjected to AT LEAST intensive conventional strikes?

Anyone who believes that has got to be living in a dreamland.

We had a discussion recently about Australia and whether or not it would have been nuked. As a country not involved in the multiple wars in the northern hemisphere (although possibly in Korea as part of the UN), and the fact it's on the other side of the planet, the concensus was the country WAS nuked. A country in the direct line of fire such as Finland (and possibly Sweden) wouldn't have had a chance.

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

The exact expression in the 2.2 main rulebook is "the two least damaged armies in Europe" from the timeline, from the spring of 1997. After that, Finland and Sweden aren't mentioned anymore in the timeline.

It of course helps that this campaign was fought in Lapland, which has low population and little infrastructure to be damaged.

I actually read the Australia thread and didn't reach the same conclusions :)

What I consider the most important criteria for justifying military activity in the context of the game is "What is the strategic gain?". Denying the enemy strategic resources is of course a net gain, but it has to be weighted with other strategical considerations. Extending the all-out war isn't always good, especially if the nuclear strikes are done as a part of limited nuclear war.

But as everyone who's read about Twilight 2000 knows, even the limited nuclear war dealt immense damage to the world. Countries like Australia, Sweden, Finland etc., you don't even need to use that many (or powerful) nukes to screw them up.

I don't remember where, but somewhere I read that you'd only need about 100 or so nukes to completely destroy the United States as an organized entity, maybe even less. Though it had its flaws, Jericho did a good job in showing how even 23 Hiroshima-size bombs detonated in as many cities could deal a hell of a lot of damage to the U.S. Total nuclear war is like two guys firing rocket launchers at each other: their bodies will blow apart. The limited nuclear war as described in T2K is more like two guys blowing each other's heads off with sniper rifles: the rest of the torso may be intact, but it's no good if your brains are all over the wall.

Considering this, I find it to be no stretch of the imagination to consider that the Russians would have had no problem in expending a few nukes to make sure that Scandinavia (and Australia too, for that matter) would pose no problem for what remained of Russia in the post-nuke world. You can bet that the Americans would have the same policy. Heck, both sides have people whose sole job is to figure out how many nukes are needed and where the targets would be.

P.S: I'll post this later when describing the Nordic countries in the Nordic sourcebook but I might as well post it in brief. While the Finnish Army didn't suffer particularly heavy casualties in the war itself, the ensuing chaos forced the army to split into numerous smaller units in order to better provide order. Also, the collapse in agriculture has caused most of the army to be demobilized in order to provide manpower for agriculture. At the moment the army is in peacetime levels (And it's not as if Russia is in any shape to threaten with invasion.). Oh yes, Finland is run by a military dictator who titles himself as "Marshal of Finland", like the late Marshal Mannerheim. As for Sweden, that country is locked in a messy and brutal civil war between the Royal and Republican armies. So I think it's safe to say that neither army is particularly intact. Well maybe the Finnish army, but it's been drastically scaled back, and is more geared for policing the country than anything else. Oh yes, and the Helsinki Metropolitan Area (meaning Helsinki, Espoo (the 2nd largest city in Finland) and Vantaa) is a no-man's-land, ruled by gangs of criminals, punks, Roma, skinheads and others.