Alternate version of New America...
Hi there everyone,
Has anyone else changed New America in their campaigns from a bunch of right-wing redneck racist christo-facsit wackos? espeically since every attempt at creating these far 'right-wing' fringe racist groups to work together has aways failed (even when they are all Neo-Nazis whom only differ in their charismatic leadership). I have changed them from this model, to a grassroots group based similarly off ACORN... They are a much more Populist group than being either 'Right-wing' or 'Left-wing'... but having embraced alot of the charismatic leadership styles used by the socialist/facist/communist tyrannies in the past.... has anyone else done this? |
I removed the overt racism to make them a little less clear of an enemy. I put them halfway from how they are presented and the what I consider to be the feelings of the average southerner. They are very anti-Mexican though due to the invasion.
I make it more like a very well organized cult. With a very charismatic leaders who manipulate a scared and hungry populace. |
When i can find my notes, i'll post them. showing just how "new america' was... originally based upon the ideals of the United States Progressive Party, and their leadership that i had written up (just like i have for Cummings)
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I have left New America in my campaign exactly as it was written in the modules. I find the racism of New America has helped in my campaign because it has left one of my main PCs, Major Anthony Po, somewhat conflicted - he agrees with much of New America's policies but he is a Chinese American. Po thinks of himself as part of America's neo-aristocracy already (before the war is was one of the top 100 most wealthy people in the USA) and is highly offended that New America would not consider him to be one of their 'Natural Aristocrats' because of his ethnicity.
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Ndp
I have twisted the faction into a similar entity with different wrapping -the New Dawn Party .
Its a utilatarian (?) ,totalitarian militant organization with a" you are a member or an enemy policy". Its got cells and enforcers etc but it also operates overtly and at one time actually held power .. yep- we are canon nonconformist heathen norse swine up here ,mixing good and righteous material with our own dark traditions. |
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Other than that there was only the scanty information on New America in intel briefings that Po received from MilGov HQ in Norfolk when he returned from Europe. |
To be honest, as a Brit living in the UK I never quite "got" the whole concept of New Anerica when it was first introduced in what was it, late 80's? In those pre internet (and pre foreign travel) days the US in general was a whole different World that I only knew from TV shows, and I had a hard time getting my head round the idea that such an organisation could exist. So i tended to ignore them.
These days I guess I'm more worldy wise, but as my T2K attention isn't focused on the US, I've continued to disregard New America completely. |
I personally think New America kinda worked in the eighties (with the comedy buffoonish eeevilness of them tuned down considerably), but aren't plausible as such a widespread and organised faction in a more present day or near future setting.
I'm actually giving the name to a more localised Floridan based Scientologist faction in my present campaign. The Scientologists fill the bill nicely as a wacked-out loony faction that is already armed and potentially rather dangerous in a post-apoc future. |
What makes me wonder is that from what I remember of the 80's when the game was written, racism was on the decline. I can remember race riots in a couple schools in Georgia and Louisiana that I went to in the late 70's, but I can't remember any real problems in the 80's. And it seems that unfortuneatley that it's on the rise again, at least to a right wing conservative southern redneck :evil4:
And no, I don't believe in the whole New America concept. If I ever use them, they'll be left wing comunist radicals! |
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Pardon me while I attempt to resurrect this thread. Elsewhere in the forum some ideas were being kicked around regarding New America's methods and goals, and it got me thinking about how hard it would be to sell Carl Hughes "Natural Aristocracy" to the average American. And again, it's going to be extremely difficult for most of these right-wing groups to work together. Hell, even left-wing groups constantly split over issues of nit-picky dogma and clashes over leadership (disguised as clashes over dogma) all the time. But New America is the right-wing threat to America, not the left-wing threat. The Soviets have that covered (mostly). So back to New America. I think that for New America to grow to be a major threat to MilGov and CivGov that it needs to be more like an infiltrating conspiracy and more like a mystery cult. As an infiltrating conspiracy New America has sent out agents during the 1980s and early 1990s to joined many of the groups that New America wants to bring under its control. This includes anything from populist anti-federal and anti-tax groups, groups that advocate the use of violence to promote a white nationalist agenda, and even groups that have moved into outright criminal activity: assassinations, bank robberies, bombings, etc.. Of course, I think NA would mostly steer clear of the groups that are actually engaging in criminal activity (like the Order) because they want to avoid the scrutiny of the FBI, ATF and other law enforcement agencies. New America wouldn't have to bring all these groups under the NA banner before the war, but the NA agents in these diverse groups are the guys who bring in much needed resources: cash, high tech equipment and even illegal weapons. Once the bombs fall and resources run thin, it's the NA members of these groups who have all the answers. They know where the NA supply caches are. They might even arrange for a NA supply drop. They have contact with higher headquarters who can provide intelligence about everything from the movement of marauders and refugees to weather patterns and even medical advice. They might even be able to call on reinforcements from other NA cells or right wing groups controlled by NA cells. The NA agents rise through the ranks of their adopted organization until they have enough influence to sell the Michigan Militia (for example) on adopting the banner of New America. This last stage would be the most difficult and might never be accomplished, leaving a splinter group like The Order or Posse Comitatus remain merely "New America-influenced" rather than out-right controlled. One wonders if there is a big map in NA's Country Home HQ color coded to show which groups have declared openly for NA, which groups are controlled by NA agents but remain independent, which have been infiltrated but remain independent, and even groups targeted for infiltration. That could certainly include MilGov and CivGov garrisons. As a mystery cult, New America's agenda and goals are hidden not only from the general public, but also from the rank and file membership. In this way they resemble Scientology. If you presented the "final revelations" of Scientology to the average follower of Scientology and Dianetics on day 1 (i.e. the whole Xenu-atomic bomb-volcano-soul thing) they would walk away from a clearly ridiculous belief system. However, if New America starts out disguising it's agenda so that none of the members get the full picture until they are fully committed to the movement, then they can get more people in the front door. Once the new members are fully committed to New America, the full agenda is revealed. Now it's too late to back out, or maybe the new member has come to accept the groupthink, like any cult. New America could also tailor its public agenda to fit the needs of the regional cells. In the Bible Belt, they could sell themselves as a movement to rebuild America as a Christian Nation. In the southwest they could present themselves as a resistance movement fighting the invasion by the Mexican Army (and advocating the expulsion of all "Mexicans" from America). The New America doctrine of Natural Aristocracy could be presented more like Ayn Rand's Objectivism, where only those who contribute are worthy of citizenship. Later, the racial component is introduced, by which time the new member is already committed or has even decided not to care because it's not his or her ox that's being gored. It would be interesting if the players traveled across the country and encountered different groups that advocate wildly different agendas, but all of which claim to be New America. In an age without mass communications, the variations in public agenda might be overlooked. Without the ability to compare what the cell in Arizona is saying, to what the cell in Idaho is saying to what the cell in Georgia is saying, it's going to be hard for the average person to realize that New America is changing its message to tell people what they want to hear. Through these two methods, New America can be even more of a threat to life and liberty in North America, without straining the players' credulity. A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
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I think it would be cool just to have a secret organization of bad ass Americans that have been training and preparing for hard times whether it be from a foreign or domestic enemy. They don't have to be bible thumpers or racist people, just people that see American government as a broken down machine that is only gonna get worse. I thought the New Americans were the cooler of the 3 groups. When everyone in the USA was living in a dream land these guys were building and preparing for survival. I don't think they could be is large scale as they were in the book and kept secret, but that's just me. The book also made them out to be substandard fighters, which I found weird since they were the only ones with war on there minds the whole time since the 1970's.:confused:
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I think the reason that New America's troops are made out to be substandard (or at least sub-standard to US troops who've just spent three years fighting the Red Army), is that most New America recruits were envisioned to be arm-chair warriors. The kind of guys who read Soldier of Fortune and Guns & Ammo, but who've never been willing to give up their time to actually serve their country. Posers, in other words. I don't fully agree with that idea since there's no reason to expect that extremists ripe for recruitment by New America couldn't also be veterans of the US military. Timothy McVeigh for instance. The authors of the original TW2K seemed to believe that the culture of the military would weed guys like that out. Personally, I think the military culture just encourages guys like that to keep their mouths shut so they are harder to identify. Certainly there's no reason why some NA cells couldn't be as deadly as the Holonists as they were portrayed in David Brin's novel The Postman. In the novel, the average Holonist was worth something like 10 militia men from any other group. After all, just because they have an evil ideology doesn't mean they can't be courageous and talented warriors. Just look at the Waffen SS or the Taliban. Quote:
A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
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Yes, it's clear as day that they try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult. I mean they just try to make them the ultimate bad guys to make the Twilight World more interesting. Your hereos can only be as good as your bad guys are bad. If you just had Civ Gov and Mil Gov fighting each other alone the story would be more blah. Civ and Mil gov are really not all that much different in some ways. They are both made up old of politics just one is more in favor of a marshal law type atmoshpere. As far as New Americans being lesser warriors because they were not Europe or the Middle East, meh I don't know. Every unit has dirt bags period. I lot of how good people are in my own opion is do to morale. I have seen good units turn bad just from a simple change of command and vice versa. The Americans returning would have most likely had better weapons handling and understanding of tactics, but they were fighting convetionally too. Now home in the USA it's all guerrrilla warfare, which the New Americans and the State side military have been doing. That's just my view, wrong or right. :vampanim: |
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The fundamental problem is how do you unify what are by nature rugged individualists. The canon "New America" does this by instilling a sense or superiority and vilifying an external enemy. As has been seen in history that really can work. I did not like that solution so I made them anti-government, anti refugee and strongly anti immigrant. This makes them a bit more of a gray enemy in my opinion. It also probably weakens the bonds between cells. However a charismatic leader can still motivate a majority of them. |
While I also have my doubts about how secret an organization like New America could be, New America makes for good story-telling. One can tweak NA to fit one's own limitations on suspension of disbelief. I've never been big on New America, but the organization can serve a purpose.
I like the Neo-Nazi racism foundation for New America because for me it taps into some very deep, dark stuff. For better or for worse, my father was a history major at a liberal arts college. I grew up on WW2 history. I got a stiff dose of Holocaust awareness in my at-the-dinner-table and riding-in-the-car and fishing-at-the-local-pond education. Flash forward in time, and I'm married to a woman whose parents are African-American and Asian-American. To the Neo-Nazis, Klansmen, and Aryan Brothers of the nation, my son is an abomination, while I am a blood traitor. I like having the story-telling tool of New America available specifically because I'm not remotely neutral about the New American racism. Getting to the story-telling part, I have been sketching out ideas for the New American power in Idaho so I can show these guys in action. New America is a device for showing how the kind of evil that overtook Germany can overtake at least a slice of the American population. Not every white person in the Idaho cantonment has to be a racist. Like the Germans, the non-NA folks along the Snake River simply have to go along with the program. In The Final Solution, a New American cell has enjoyed huge success in the Snake River Valley of Idaho. Unlike the Tampa New American organization, the Snake River New Americans have gone with a more traditional Holocaust-style of treatment of the untermenschen. Concentration camps have been set up, and the non-Aryan internees are worked to death. It's pretty straightforward, really. From a story-telling standpoint, I get my dramatic release from two events. The first is the friction that develops between the Shogun in Nevada and the New Americas. The Shogun is a warlord, but he's an equal-opportunity warlord. He's Japanese-American, and the outward apsects of his army (the Gunryo) are heavily Japanese partially as a means of fostering internal cohesion among his troops. The Gunryo has a lot of bikers, but the few racists have been... weeded out. The Shogun gets wind of what is happening in Idaho and executes a major raid with his army of mobile marauders. He "liberates" a number of people from the concentration camp, then promptly adds them to the peasant population under his thumb in Nevada. Mind, I'm not trying to make the Shogun a hero. I just like the irony of the Shogun and New America being at each other's throats. The second event is Operation Manifest Destiny. The Snake River has to be opened up to barge traffic so that the Colorado and the Puget Sound cantonments can be linked logistically. Skipping over the preparations to build an expeditionary force that can do the job (which could fill a thick novel), I imagine American troops gathered from all over the country (including a reinforced battalion from SAMAD) pushing forward an offensive to crush the New Americans and liberate the surviving Americans in the concentration camps. So yes, it's a fairly simple good v evil story for me. I happen to like it because it touches me in a very personal, very fundamental way. Webstral |
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I like to have the racist New America as bad guys, for the reasons Targan mentioned. My mother is a concentration camp survivor, and that contributes as well.
As for myself, racism is basically institutionalized hate, and in the US we're already seeing it reassert itself. But It doesn't make sense to me -- there are so many reasons to hate people as individuals that hating them as a race doesn't make any sense. Dogs are altogether better people -- most of the time they love unconditionally, and when they don't, people probably made them that way. |
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You sound like you think the New Americans are getting a bad rap from the former staff writers at GDW. Am I reading your comments correctly? A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
I will be honest, NA is good for my campaign as it gives the MILGOV/CIVGOV forces some ones else to worry about.
Personally, I see NA being the source of a fair amount of "rebuilding". Organizations with this much power tend to be a catalyst for other reforms and such to counter them as well. |
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As far as "they" I I'm refering to the authors of TW2K. They are the ones that made the NA what they are, are they not?:rolleyes: I mean they could have made them dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia.:rolleyes: And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's. You Mention Khmer Rouge which I give you props for, because most people don't even know or remember them and they happened after the nazi's. Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's. Look at Africa do we know what happens there- no, we don't care. Why because they aren't popular.:D So yeah the writers did make the NA bad guys. A group like that couldn't get that big, because everyone is looking for that type of evil. They could of made them less flamboyant bad guys or not bad guys at all, just another group that doesn't see eye to eye with the other two. |
I've always thought of NA as coming to the fore after the nuclear exchange, offering law and order, food, security and protection against raiders, rebuilding etc. etc. In the sorry situation the U.S. is in, I'd think that a lot of people would be quite open to all that.
Naturally, NA would use propaganda to mask their more odious true nature from the general public. I doubt they'd immediately go "RAR! We are teh Aryans!!! We gonna kill all the filthy niggers, jooze, fags, mormons and anyone else we don't like!" They'd be more clever than that, which would make them all the more dangerous. This reminds me of a joke I once read in MAD magazine about the "patriot" who ends up hating about 90% of Americans.:rolleyes: |
The Khmer Rouge of course were Communists who took it to the absolute extreme. Fortunately their reign over their country was relatively short, but did they know how to kill people!
Of course the majority of the people they killed were their own, which many people pointed the finger at just to save their own skins (and then most still died). A truely horrific group which unfortunately still exists in the more remote regions... :( |
NDP
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Shelter-Bread-Leadership the creed of the NDP who woved to give all a berth and space in a bunker ,calories enough to feed all and of course a 23 hour and 45 min program for how the populace would spend their days in their bunkers. Yeah -I know -that 15 min gap proves it . They are softies. They do have a death mine though , for dissidents.They inherited it and renamed it from The General Pain Asbestos CO. Ltd when the glorious reign of teh General collapsed during the first MilGov invasion /liberation attempt in 2014.( Yeah.Some call it this ,some that ,depending on loyalties..) Much the same clientele . |
Something that was half joked about when I was in the army was that we were not allowed to be worked more than 23 hours and 45 minutes in a day as anything more could be described as slavery.
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I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements. The New Americans were certainly influenced by David Brin's Holonists from "The Postman." In that book survivalists are depicted as the reason the government fails to recover after the limited nuclear exchange and why the country breaks down into anarchy and chaos. But I don't think that the authors at GDW had an agenda concerning the depiction of survivalist. A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
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In today's world you see the fact that the movie version of "Sum of All fears" change the villains from Palestinian terrorists to, you guessed it, neo Nazis. Even thought the origin or fissile materials they used was a lost Israeli bomb found in Syria. This just smacks of lazy writing or a desire not to be controversial. Nazis are just such an easy target. |
Neo-Nazis are an easy target -- but they're also an easy plot device. Sometimes, those are necessary, as long as those easy plot devices aren't overused.
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I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements..[/quote] Not so sure if this is true. But, the media sure likes to print headlines like that. And I'm sure headlines like that in the 1970-1980's are what made the author go that route. Quote:
Never read The Postman or saw that Kevin Costner movie either. I think the author picked survivalist, because the average American more then likely sees them as crazies.:D |
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I guess the problem here is I that don't equate racist redneck militias with the Nazis... or skin heads, or the Klan, or even the Aryan Nations guys. Those guys are not Nazis because they have an inherent and highly American distrust of big institutions and government. They want America to be like they imagine it was in the Mid-19th century: Run by white Christian men, where anyone else has no rights we are bound to respect, and the government can't get in the way of how you dispose of your property. Rugged frontier individualism with a dose of America for Americans and no sense of irony about the fact that except for the redskins we're all illegal immigrants. Nazis, that is real historical Nazis and not these cheap wanna-be knock offs, don't want rugged individualism. They want to submerge their identity into a greater whole (hence all the spiffy uniforms). They want to be part of the well-oiled machine (like the Weremacht or the Waffen SS). A juggernaut of history reshaping the world (Deutchland Uber Alles). I'm not saying they are robots, but the Nazis (and fascists) of the 1930s and 1940s do not distrust the state. They love the state. They see the state as the only mechanism to solve society's problems. As for more on who fills the shoes of the Nazis in TW2K... Quote:
Sure, you get Red Army commanders with some humanity and sense of proportion. But the KGB is an evil organization at it's core. It's going to make sure that the Red Army dies in place fighting for war-aims that are clearly impossible to achieve while the KGB and Party officials sit it out in the backfield. They are the Gestapo. As for their uniforms not being spiffy... Okay maybe they don't dress as sharp as the SS with those black uniforms with the silver piping... but come on! The Nazis were the best dressed evil bastards in history. You can't top them for style. A direct comparison isn't fair. I'm just saying that their uniforms would be spiffier than the Army surplus that the New Americans would be wearing. Quote:
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Political violence in America comes more often from the far right, not the far left. It's always been more wide-spread, more accepted, and more organized on the far-right than on the far left. But that doesn't mean I get off portraying white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient folks as the ultimate bad guys in a role-playing game so I can pretend that my political biases represent reality. In fact, I believe that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient is the freakin' back bone of this country. They do all the heavy lifting around here. They're they guys that keep this country fed and most often fill the ranks of the military. In the TW2K world they are indispensable for rebuilding the country. Unfortunately they are also susceptible to New America's message, particularly if the message is wrapped in some half-truths and outright lies to convince folks that they are not really going to end up in a fascist state divided into racial castes. A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore. I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.;)
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Kudos Gentlemen |
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I was never comfortable with the US helping Red China in the TW2K timelines. Not that I don't think we would have "played the China card," but supporting Red China in a Sino-Soviet war is too much like being in bed with Stalin during WWII. Gives me the creeps. I'd be happier just letting them hash it out amongst themselves. So just to be clear, I think the US would have supported China during a Sino-Soviet war as envisioned by GDW, but I wouldn't have liked it. And for reasons I've stated elsewhere, I think a prolonged conventional Twilight War is more likely if the PRC and the USSR are fighting against the West. Somehow we have to get back on topic to New America. A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.
Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs? I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this. Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer. |
In Thunder Empire, the populace of SAMAD all pretty much become government employees. They obtain a Government Service rank based on what they can do. If you have no skills but can work hard and have US citizenship, you become a GS1. Almost anybody can be used in the labor battalions. Those who can't work the fields or in construction still might have a place in the machine shops, which are always hungry for labor.
As has been said before, what sets New America aside is not their interest in triage. New America's motives are far different than, say, MilGov's or CivGov's. New America is looking to create an Aryan United States. With the possible exception of the Florida enclave, New American cells would value a white man with no skills more highly than a black or Hispanic doctor, agricultural specialist, chemist, or engineer. As a rule, MilGov or CivGov will be nearly color blind when it comes to valuable skills. (Racism hides in unexpected places.) Webstral |
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But there is something to consider. TW2K is usually set around two and a half years after the nuclear exchange. There have been two harsh winters and a kind of "nuclear autumn." Refugee camps have suffered massive casualties by this time. The old, the sick, the handicapped, the mentally impaired, the mentally ill... all these kinds of people may have been either Darwined or even Malthused out of the equation by either the environment or even their fellow humans. By the time the players arrive on the scene, the weakest (pre-war) links have probably been removed. The social triage will no doubt continue as people get sick and injured, but by the summer of 2000, most camps are going to be down to their hardiest members. Any triage in the face of food supplies is going to be based on the individual's skills and ability to help the group. Not just what has someone done in the past, but what can they do in the future. Of course anyone with skills who refuses to use them might be subjected to some very brutal persuasion. Quote:
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The scenario also features a band of marauders/deserters from the 108th ID (all of whom are racial minorities) who deserted because the command of New America is falling under the ideological influence of New America. The scenario was significant because it mixed it up to make the standard villains red herrings. A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing |
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