RPG Forums

RPG Forums (http://forum.juhlin.com/index.php)
-   Twilight 2000 Forum (http://forum.juhlin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3)
-   -   The ANZACs in T2k (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5759)

Legbreaker 10-20-2018 08:48 AM

Thanks. Just had a quick look so far but already saw some questionable targeting such as Richmond - it's C-130's and not much else. I lived and worked in and around it for a few years, it's just not worth nuking.
Meanwhile Williamtown at Newcastle where the majority of the F/A-18s were actually based (along with HQ and training) isn't on the list.
That said, by the time nukes were used, I'm fairly certain all Australia's combat air assets would have already been deployed.

StainlessSteelCynic 10-20-2018 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 79714)
Thanks. Just had a quick look so far but already saw some questionable targeting such as Richmond - it's C-130's and not much else. I lived and worked in and around it for a few years, it's just not worth nuking.
Meanwhile Williamtown at Newcastle where the majority of the F/A-18s were actually based (along with HQ and training) isn't on the list.
That said, by the time nukes were used, I'm fairly certain all Australia's combat air assets would have already been deployed.

Definitely, those Hercs probably wouldn't all be at Richmond either, they would have been deployed northwards to assist with the operations in Papua New Guinea. Not all of them, but probably at least half of them would be away from base making Richmond even less attractive as a nuke target.

As for Williamtown, the majority of the Hornets would have been deployed to the various dispersal bases around the top end of Australia probably well in advance of any attack against Williamtown.

But as mentioned by Leg, the majority of Australian airpower would have already been damaged or destroyed beforehand. I'm inclined to believe that use of nuclear weapons against Australia would be more to deny base facilities (e.g. ports) to UK/US forces in the Indo-Pacific region. With that in mind, use against Australian military facilties would be limited to those bases that directly supported UK/US military operations.

As a potential (and very small) boost to the remaining military aircraft, it's possible the RAN (or even the RAAF) might take control of the half-dozen or so Grumman S-2 Trackers that were still in Australia. They had been retired in the mid 1980s and a small number were still in storage and awaiting disposal by the early 1990s. At that time there were still people in Australia with experience flying and servicing these aircraft (either still in RAN service, retired from the RAN or transferred to the RAAF).
But we are talking about three maybe four at most and they would probably be used as light bombers simply because there would be no ASW stores left for them to use (and more importantly, very few/no RAN vessels capable of supporting them in the ASW role).

A side note on those A-4 Skyhawks mentioned as being leased from New Zealand. They were used as OpFor for air force training as well as for land based air defence training.
Some of them were actually A-4G models that had been in service with the RAN fleet air arm and then sold to New Zealand (who upgraded them to A-4K standard).
In the early 2000s, the majority of the New Zealand Skyhawks were sold to a US company who also used them as aggressor aircraft.

Olefin 10-20-2018 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 79710)
A Coy (along with B and C Coy) at that time were a reservist unit mostly made up of uni students on their gap year. There's absolutely no way they'd have been deployed. Only D Coy were regular troops.
Absolutely the wrong unit to send.

Perfect that is exactly the information that I need - definitely want to make the unit realistic - so could easily switch the units - basically it would be an amalgamation of the two companies that remained into one single company - so what would have been the most likely units?

I picked the 6th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment at random but obviously I had the wrong battalion - so what would have been the better battalion to have drawn those companies from originally?

Legbreaker 10-20-2018 10:49 PM

1 and 2/4 RAR, perhaps 3 if you want a parachute battalion. 5/7 RAR for a Mechanised Battalion.
The rest all have at least elements of reservists in them and should probably be treated more as training units rather than operational.
I'd probably leave 1 RAR out of it though as IRL they were the most heavily deployed unit at the time.

Ewan 10-21-2018 03:30 AM

I'm really looking forward to purchasing the sourcebook when it comes out.

In the GDW Bangkok sourcebook it mentions on page 18 that "Merchants affiliated with a triad or the yakuza will take US and Australian dollars ($1=A$2)".

It also mentions on page 31 that "Although severely disrupted by the war, trade has begun to return to Southeast Asia, and Thialand has several exports which it sends to its neighbours in Burma, Laos, and Vietnam as well as to ports farther afield in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaya, and (increasingly) western Australia."

RN7 10-21-2018 12:49 PM

In the 1990's Indonesia bought a lot of surplus East German equipment from the German government, primarily ships and aircraft. In Twilight 2000 this would not have happened so I didn't include any former East German equipment that Indonesia had at this time,

Indonesia Army

Manpower: 215,000 (with 800,000 Reserves)
Available Manpower: 24,283,000 males aged between 18-32) (* in mid-1990's)

The Indonesian Army had a confusing organisation. KOSTRAD was the regular army, and the KODAM forces were territorial forces that included reserves. Most operational army units are controlled through the KODAMS. These territorial units account for the bulk of the army’s personnel. The territorial system deploys army units at every level of the civilian government structure: Korem (Garrison Command), Kodim (District Command), Koramil (Subdistrict Command), and non-commissioned officers resident in the country’s villages. The territorial system is the least professional element of the army and had the lowest priority for equipment, manpower and training.

The army’s best combat units were the Strategic Reserve (KOSTRAD). KOSTRAD had about 30,000 personnel in two divisions and an airborne brigade, and was the largest operational command in the armed forces. However it had minimal organic logistics capability and its units obtained most of their logistical support from the territorial military regional commands in whose geographic area they were deployed, which limiting its ability to deploy independently for long periods to remote areas.

The Special Forces Command (KOPASSUS) has three special warfare groups and an elite counterterrorism unit (Unit 81). The KOPASSUS has a strength of about 10,000 personnel and is divided into three groups, consisting of two para-commando units, one intelligence unit, eight counter-terrorist units, and one training unit. The units have rapid reaction capability and often deployed to hotspots, generally in teams of 50 men or fewer. Traditionally KOPASSUS had links with the Australian and British SAS regiments and the US Army Special Forces.

Recruits train for 3 months with their local KODAM training regiment. Specialists and technicians attend centralized corps schools. NCO candidates undergo 5 months of promotion training at their Kodam training regiment. Officer recruits selected for the Military Academy (Akmil) first undertake basic training as soldiers. The academic component of officer training is increasingly stressed, and many officers leave Akmil with an undergraduate degree. Officers are also recruited from university and other vocational graduates who undertake a 20 week course at Akmil. An additional source of officer recruitment is from the ranks, with one year of training at officer cadet schools. During the 1990s, the army benefited from training links and exercises with the Singapore, Australian, British and US armies. Many of those training opportunities were lost when the United States and Australia ended many training programs in the wake of the East Timor violence in 1998.

Organisation
Strategic Reserve (KOSTRAD)
2 infantry division HQ
3 infantry brigade (9 battalion)
3 airborne brigade (9 battalion)
2 field artillery regiment (6 battalion)
1 air defence regiment (2 battalion)
2 engineer regiment

Military Area Command (KODAM)
10 military area commands (provisional (KOREM) and district (KORIM))
65 infantry battalion (including 4 airborne)
8 cavalry battalion
8 field artillery battalion
8 air defence battalion
8 engineer battalion
1 aviation squadron
1 helicopter squadron
Special Forces Group (KOPASSUS)
3 special forces groups

KOPASSUS Organisation
Group 1 (combat) : Serang, West Java
Group 2 (combat): Kartasura, Central Java
Group 3 (intelligence and covert operations): Jakarta, Java
Unit 81 (counterterrorism): Jakarta, Java
Training Centre: Batijajar, West Java

Equipment
Light Tank
AMX-13 (105mm gun): 125
PT-76 (76.2mm gun): 30
Armoured Vehicles
AMX-VCI APC: 200
BTR-40 APC: 140
BTR-50 APC: 25
Commando Ranger APC: 20
Commando Scout (20mm cannon) scout car: 28
Ferret scout car: 45
Saladin (76mm gun) armoured car: 60
Saracen APC: 45
V-150 Commando APC: 240
Artillery
AMX Mk 61 Self Propelled 105mm Gun: 50
M-101A1 105mm Towed Howitzer: 170
M-30 122mm Towed Howitzer: 20
M-48 76.2mm Towed Mountain Gun: 95
M-56 105mm Towed Howitzer: 10
Air Defence
Bofors L/70 40mm AA Gun: 90
Rapier SAM Launcher: 21
RBS-70 Portable SAM Launcher: 42
Rh-202 20mm AA Gun: 125
S-60 57mm AA Gun: 200
Infantry Support Weapons
M20A1B1 89mm Recoilless Rifle: 90
M29 81mm Mortar: 800
M-40A1 106mm Recoilless Rifle: 45
MO-120-RT 120mm Mortar: 75
SS-11 Anti-Tank Missile Launcher: 40
Aircraft
Bell 205 Helicopter: 12
Bell-412 Helicopter: 10
BO 105C Helicopter: 13
BN-2 Islander Communications Aircraft: 1
C-47 Dakota Transport: 2
C-212 STOL Transport: 4
Cessna 310 Light STOL: 2
DHC-5 VIP Transport: 3
Gulfstream 695 Commander Communications Aircraft: 1
Hughes 300C Light Helicopter: 10
Rockwell Commander 680FL STOL Transport: 2
Marine Craft
LST: 1
LCU: 20
Naval Transports: 14
Ordinance
Rapier SAM Missile: 300 delivered
RBS-70 SAM Missiles: 150 delivered
SS-11 Anti-Tank Missile: 500 delivered

Infantry Weapons
9mm Beretta M12 Sub-Machine Gun
5.56mm FN-FNC Assault Rifle
5.56mm M16A1 Assault Rifle
7.62mm Beretta BM59 Assault Rifle
7.62mm vz/52/57 Assault Rifle
5.56mm Minimi Light Machine Gun
7.62mm FN MAG General-Purpose Machine Gun
7.62mm M60 General-Purpose Machine Gun
12.7mm DShK Heavy Machine Gun
0.50in Browning M2HB Heavy Machine Gun
M18 57mm Recoilless Rifle
M79 40mm Grenade Launcher
M203 40mm Grenade Launch


Indonesian Air Force

Manpower: 25,000

The Indonesian air force included two operations commands (Koops I and II, administering air bases and operational units in western and eastern areas of the archipelago, respectively), and the special forces (ground defense), education and maintenance commands. Koops 1 and II directs the air force's various roles and supports the army and navy. Since the 1980s the air force has gradually moved more of its combat forces to forward locations outside Java, and in particular to three locations.

1) Pekanbaru Air Base in Sumatra’s Riau Province, supporting operations in Aceh and over the adjacent Malacca Strait
2) Supadio Air Base at Pontianak in West Kalimantan provides aircover for the important offshore Natuna gas field
3) Hasanuddin Air Base at Makassar in South Sulawesi supports a major KOSTRAD presence and serves as the main air force presence in the country’s eastern provinces

Organisation
2 fighter/ground attack squadrons (A-4E/H, F-16A/B)
1 fighter squadron (F-5E/F)
2 COIN squadron (Hawk Mk.53 and OV-10F)
1 marine patrol squadron
1 tanker flight
4 transport squadron
3 helicopter squadron
4 training squadron
5 airfield defence battalions

Equipment
F-16A/B Fighter/Attack: 12
A-4E/H Attack: 28
F-5E/F Fighter: 14
Hawk Mk.53 COIN: 24
OV-10F COIN: 12
Boeing 737-200 marine patrol: 3
C-130H-MP marine patrol: 2
KC-130B tanker: 2
C-47 Dakota transport: 9
C-130B transport: 9
C-130H transport: 3
C-130H-30 transport: 7
F-27-400M transport: 7
C-212 STOL transport: 10
Boeing 707 passenger transport: 1
F-28-1000 passenger transport: 1
Cessna 401/402 light transport: 7
Skyvan survey: 1
Sikorsky H-34 transport helicopter: 12
SA330 Puma transport helicopter: 13
UH-1B helicopter: 2
Alouette III light helicopter: 3
Bo-105 light helicopter: 12
Bell 206 light helicopter: 2
Trainer aircraft: 80
Air Ordinance
AGM-65 Maverick AS Missile: 50 delivered
AIM-9J Sidewinder SRAA Missile: 100 delivered
AIM-9P Sidewinder SRAA Missile: 75 delivered
Mark 82 500 Ib General Purpose Bomb
Mark 83 1,000 Ib General Purpose Bomb


Indonesian Navy

Manpower: 42,000 (including 1,000 naval air arm and 12,000 Marines)

The Indonesian Navy was a large force that was necessary as Indonesia is a collection of islands. Training standards and equipment were below Western standards and especially the Australians, but were improving. Indonesia bought some submarines from West Germany and surplus missile frigates from the Netherlands in the 1990's. The navy played a central role in defending the Indonesian archipelago. In peacetime, the navy polices Indonesian waters to counter maritime poaching, smuggling, and piracy, and supports the army internal security operations. The navy performs most coast guard functions, but the Department of Transport's Sea Communications Agency includes a Maritime Security Agency that operates some search and rescue and harbor patrol craft. In wartime the navy, acting in conjunction with the air force, is expected to interdict invading forces as far as possible from Indonesian territory and mount defensive operations.

The Navy is organised into two operational commands and three functional commands. The operational commands are regionally oriented, with the defense responsibility for national waters divided between Eastern Fleet and the Western Fleet. The Eastern Fleet is headquartered in Surabaya in East Java, with other bases at Manado in the Celebes and Ambon in the Moluccas. The Western Fleet is headquartered in Jakarta, with other bases in Sabang in Sumatra and Tanjung Pinang on Riau Island. The three functional commands are the Naval Training Command, including a naval academy located at Surabaya, Military Sealift Command, and the Marine Corps. Each fleet includes main naval bases, support naval bases, naval observer posts, and two operational components: a combat command and a maritime security command. The maritime security commands oversee maritime law enforcement

Submarines
Cakra Class (Type 209/1300) submarine: 2
Principle Surface Combatants
Van Speijk Class Missile Frigate: 6
Ashanti Class Frigate: 3
Claud Jones Class Frigate
Fatahillah Class Frigate: 3
Hajar Dewantara Class Frigate: 1
Patrol and Coastal Combatants
Mandau Class Fast Attack Missile Craft: 4
Attack Class Patrol Craft: 8
Bima Samundera Class Patrol Craft: 5
Singa Class Torpedo Craft: 2
Tongkak Class Patrol Craft: 3
Yug Kraljevica Class Patrol Craft: 3
Mine Warfare
Pulau Rengat Class Minehunter: 2
Amphibious
Teluk Semangka Class LST (200 troops, 17 tanks): 6
Teluk Amboina Class LST (200 troops, 16 tanks): 1
Teluk Langsa Class LST (200 troops, 16 tanks): 7
LCU: 4
LCM: 20
LCVP: 20
Support Ships
Surong Class AOR: 1
Other Ships: 17
Naval Aviation
N22B Searchmaster Marine Patrol: 12
N22 SL Searchmaster Marine Patrol: 6
HU-16B Albatross Flying Boat: 4
C-212 Aviocar Transport: 4
Aero Commander 100 Training: 6
PA-38 Tomahawk Training: 6
AS 332L Super Puma Transport Helicopter: 9
Bo-105C Light Helicopter: 4
HAS.1 Wasp ASW Helicopter: 9
Alouette-III Light Helicopter: 2
Naval Ordinance
AGM-84 Harpoon AS Missile: 32 delivered
MM-38 Exocet AS Missile: 60 delivered
Mistral Portable SAM Missile: 120 delivered
Sea Cat SAM Missile: 110 delivered
SS-N-2 AS Missile: 25 delivered

The Indonesian Marine Corps (KORMAR) had a strength of 12,000 personnel and were organised into 2 infantry brigades of 6 battalions and 1 combat support regiment with tank, reconnaissance, artillery, air defence and landing craft battalions. The 1st Marine Corp Group included the 1st, 3rd and 5th Battalions and the Combat Support Regiment and is based in Surabaya to cover Indonesia’s eastern region. The Independent Marine Corps Brigade with the 2nd, 4th and 6th Battalions is based in Jakarta to cover the central region. Indonesia plans to eventually double the size of the Marine Corps, which has led to friction with the army over funding, resources and influence. The army wants the Marine Corps to move out of Jakarta to curtail its security role in the Indonesian capital. There have been plans to move the Independent Marine Brigade from Jakarta to Surabaya, and the 1st Marine Corps Group headquarters from Surabaya to Makassar (Sulawesi). But it has been delayed for years due to inter-service rivalry between the army and navy.

Equipment
PT-76 (76.2mm gun) Light Tank: 80
AMX-10 PAC-90 (90mm gun) armoured car: 10
BRDM-1 Scout Car: 20
AMX-10P APC: 25
BTR-50P APC: 75
LG-1 105mm Towed Howitzer: 20
M-30 122mm Towed Howitzer: 40
BM-14 140mm Multiple Rocket Launcher: 24
Bofors L/70 40mm AA Gun: 40

Paramilitary

The Indonesian national police force (INP) numbered 180,000 in the mid-1990's and was expanding in size. The INP is controlled from Jakarta headquarters and each province has a subordinate headquarters in major urban areas (Polwil) and at district (Polres) and sub-district (Polres) levels. The INP is organized along functional lines, with divisions responsible for intelligence and security, criminal investigations, routine patrol work, traffic and community liaison. The INP also controls the paramilitary Mobile Brigade (Brimob) which has around 15,000 personnel. Brimob units are routinely accused of human-rights abuses and serve in a gendarmerie role. The INP also controls the counter insurgency GEGANA unit. The INP also has its own air wing of 11 light aircraft and 13 helicopters (10 Bo-105 and 3 Bell 206), and a marine unit with 25 small patrol craft.

Other para-military forces include 1.5 million strong KAMRA (People's Security) that was an unarmed part-time police auxiliary. The Customs Police, Marine Security Agency and Transport Ministry also controlled a marine force of 85 small patrol craft and 28 LCU.

Jason Weiser 10-23-2018 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 79714)
Thanks. Just had a quick look so far but already saw some questionable targeting such as Richmond - it's C-130's and not much else. I lived and worked in and around it for a few years, it's just not worth nuking.
Meanwhile Williamtown at Newcastle where the majority of the F/A-18s were actually based (along with HQ and training) isn't on the list.
That said, by the time nukes were used, I'm fairly certain all Australia's combat air assets would have already been deployed.

I would take the military targeting with a grain of salt, as for the political and economic base, I think it's pretty dead on. I had to pick weapons with the RANGE to reach Australia from the Soviet Union, or just grab random sub based weapons and assume they got past the RAN to launch a missile or two. I am assuming no Soviet aircraft launched on Australia due again, to the distances involved, that and they were probably being used to flatten targets in Japan and China.

Legbreaker 10-23-2018 06:19 PM

Yes, the economics aren't too bad. I'll be looking at likely missiles and number of warheads and adding subtracting from there I think. My guess is ABMs rather than sub launched missiles - it's a long way to send a sub which might be better utilised elsewhere.
Australian strikes though are most likely an afterthought. Australia wasn't directly involved in any of the major fronts (besides a presence in Korea which is arguably a UN conflict), and the country is on the other side of the globe to just about everywhere too. Not exactly convenient for your warships to drop in for repairs, and very unlikely for there to be any exports of significance due to lack of fuel, limited production capacity, and Australia's own internal needs.

dylan 10-27-2018 03:24 PM

Russians at Cam Ranh Bay? (including bombers) Would northern Australia be a target for them?

In our real timeline, Russian bombers (Bears) operated out of Biak airport in Indonesian Papua last year.

StainlessSteelCynic 10-27-2018 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylan (Post 79744)
Russians at Cam Ranh Bay? (including bombers) Would northern Australia be a target for them?

In our real timeline, Russian bombers (Bears) operated out of Biak airport in Indonesian Papua last year.

I think they would be more involved with the Soviet effort against China. If any air or naval assets survived that conflict, they might be a potential problem for Australia but they would still have to survive the journey from Vietnam to any target in Australia. For example, it's about 3600km (2237 miles) from Cam Ranh Bay to Darwin (in the Northern Territory).

Legbreaker 10-27-2018 08:05 PM

And that's 3,600km through potentially hostile airspace, just to hit a target in a country which isn't even technically at war with the USSR.

RN7 10-27-2018 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylan (Post 79744)
Russians at Cam Ranh Bay? (including bombers) Would northern Australia be a target for them?

In our real timeline, Russian bombers (Bears) operated out of Biak airport in Indonesian Papua last year.

The Tu-22M Backfire has the range to hit Northern Australia from Vietnam, but the RAAF could also hit them back with a F-111G strike in this period.

StainlessSteelCynic 10-27-2018 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RN7 (Post 79748)
The Tu-22M Backfire has the range to hit Northern Australia from Vietnam, but the RAAF could also hit them back with a F-111G strike in this period.

And this is also the same time period where the RAAF was finally in possession of inflight refuelling tankers.

At the time, the B707 aircraft we had were not fitted with the tail boom refuelling probe that would be required by the F-111's because it was felt that the FA-18's needed the range increase allowed by inflight refuelling more than the F-111's did.
By way of comparison, the RAAF FA-18A with a 4000lb weapons load and 6000lbs of external fuel had a strike range of approximately 1020km while the RAAF F-111A/C with the same 4000lb load and no external fuel had a strike range of 2040km.
Info taken from here: - http://ausairpower.net/raaf-707.html

While the tail boom probe was not part of the modification, it was studied as part of the options for inflight refuelling. It's always possible that we could get technical/engineering help from the UK & USA if an urgent requirement for inflight refuelling of the F-111's was found and the modification to the B707's could be carried out in Australia.

RN7 10-28-2018 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 79751)
And this is also the same time period where the RAAF was finally in possession of inflight refuelling tankers.

At the time, the B707 aircraft we had were not fitted with the tail boom refuelling probe that would be required by the F-111's because it was felt that the FA-18's needed the range increase allowed by inflight refuelling more than the F-111's did.
By way of comparison, the RAAF FA-18A with a 4000lb weapons load and 6000lbs of external fuel had a strike range of approximately 1020km while the RAAF F-111A/C with the same 4000lb load and no external fuel had a strike range of 2040km.
Info taken from here: - http://ausairpower.net/raaf-707.html

While the tail boom probe was not part of the modification, it was studied as part of the options for inflight refuelling. It's always possible that we could get technical/engineering help from the UK & USA if an urgent requirement for inflight refuelling of the F-111's was found and the modification to the B707's could be carried out in Australia.


Australia bought 4 air refuelling systems from Israel between 1991-1992 for the modification of 4 Boeing-707 transport aircraft to tanker/transport aircraft. 15 F-111G (FB-111A) were also bought from America second hand in 1993-1994 to replace the shorter ranged F-111C.

Legbreaker 10-28-2018 01:21 AM

A useful document I came across a few years ago which will go a long way towards figuring out what the spark was that ignited the Indonesia/Australia conflict.
Attachment 4164

Olefin 10-29-2018 02:08 PM

FYI have some info for you on font sizes from the old GDW publications - check your messages

Legbreaker 10-31-2018 06:58 PM

Anyone got any thoughts on giving Australian and New Zealand an "On the Beach" sort of vibe?
The first half of the movie, rather than the inevitable death towards the end.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053137/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0219224/

Olefin 11-01-2018 12:10 PM

I dont see it being quite like "On the Beach" - the war wasnt that bad - even the first half before the "everyone dies" second half

Legbreaker 11-01-2018 08:57 PM

I don't think so either, just looking about for ideas as without the war directly impacting the Australian mainland, it's hard to figure out what impact it would have had on a day to day basis. I'm thinking of pulling ideas and elements from there and similar stories such as Testament, Outbreak, and Panic In The Year Zero!
One idea I'm toying with is hitting the major urban areas with some sort of plague or bioweapon and adding in famine due to lack of fuel to shift grain and other produce to where it's needed most. Quarantine areas get set up, but due to the sprawling nature of Australian cities and limited manpower to patrol them, they're about as effective as flyscreen windows in a submarine.

Olefin 11-01-2018 09:33 PM

"Panic In The Year Zero" - always loved that movie

StainlessSteelCynic 11-01-2018 09:46 PM

I think the way society is portrayed in the first Mad Max movie would be suitable for those areas still under government control but I also think that The Rover is even better for that aspect.

Legbreaker 11-01-2018 10:46 PM

I see those two fitting the more remote areas actually.

rcaf_777 11-02-2018 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser (Post 79713)
The target list I cooked up a while ago, use as appropriate.

Curious what the justification for Australia being nuked? Is this a case of it twilight so everything was was nuked?

Australia during twilight dose not have the capability to operate beyond his island independently, it dose not have troops in Europe. While is it might supporting China with material it dose not have large numbers of troops outside of the country.

Guessing the oil refineries where added cause? The US might use them?

that dose not make sense to me, maybe its just me

Legbreaker 11-02-2018 09:33 AM

The oil refineries Australia does have aren't actually suited to processing the oil we have, and are located far from the oil fields anyway. The bulk of the crude processed in Australia is shipped in from elsewhere, while the oil produced mostly ends up in Asia.
https://www.aip.com.au/resources/aus...n-and-refining

The refineries really can't be the reason for any nukes.

rcaf_777 11-02-2018 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 79797)
The oil refineries Australia does have aren't actually suited to processing the oil we have, and are located far from the oil fields anyway. The bulk of the crude processed in Australia is shipped in from elsewhere, while the oil produced mostly ends up in Asia.
https://www.aip.com.au/resources/aus...n-and-refining

The refineries really can't be the reason for any nukes.

That what I thought too, I found this tool that shows Australia Crude Oil Consumption by Year. (https://www.indexmundi.com/energy/?c...on&product=oil) in 1998 Australia consumed 852,000 Barrels of oil, while producing 862,0000 Barrels. Which in theory is just enough to cover consumption is a very small surplus.

I also don't think that the Soviets have enough missiles left in Asia with the range to hit Australian targets. Best option is a Ballistic Sub Launched Missiles and then I would only have one sub attacking ports that the US could use.

Olefin 11-02-2018 04:25 PM

I would think that the only nuke targets that the Soviets might - and this is a big might - go after would be their intelligence gathering and satellite tracking stations - other than that I really dont see them nuking Australia - on the other hand the Indonesian oil fields or refineries might be a real target

Legbreaker 11-02-2018 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 79802)
I would think that the only nuke targets that the Soviets might - and this is a big might - go after would be their intelligence gathering and satellite tracking stations - other than that I really don't see them nuking Australia - on the other hand the Indonesian oil fields or refineries might be a real target

Even those targets are problematic really with facilities WIDELY dispersed and only staffed with perhaps a few hundred people. Conventional warheads or covert action may be more suitable.

Not sure about Indonesian targets. Doubtful they could be considered neutral and given the ANZUS treaty (yes, even without New Zealand) the US would technically be at war with Indonesia, even if they weren't able to actually send any soldiers or equipment. It's possible the US or even the UK nuked Indonesia, but I really can't see the advantage in doing that - Nato don't have any significant opponents anywhere near the area to potentially use the oil.

The whole region is proving somewhat difficult to depopulate and destroy. Fairly sure though that I'll send something like the Spanish Flu through and add in a few natural disasters to damage infrastructure. Most of Australia is prone to bushfires and/or flooding, both of which are difficult enough to handle in peace time, while parts of Indonesia are volcanically active.

Legbreaker 11-03-2018 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six (Post 79665)
At one point in time (maybe around 15 – 20 years ago) someone (I don’t know who) had a write up for an ANZAC (plus attached Pacific Islanders iirc) unit in Germany. The premise was they’d gathered together assorted Aussie / NZ / Fijian personnel that had been in theatre (UN peacekeepers, training teams, personnel on exchange postings, Australian Federal Police, I think even a couple of Defence Attaches, etc) and consolidated them into one Company sized unit. Obviously it was non canon.

I don’t know if said site still exists and my google fu (admittedly restricted by being at work) isn’t coming up with anything – maybe someone else remembers it or has a link to it?

Found it.
I'd saved the page back in 2009. Don't think I'll be using any of it - most of what's there is preposterous.

Attachment 4166

Legbreaker 11-06-2018 07:58 PM

I don't suppose anyone wants to map out the locations of all the Australian army reserve barracks as they were around the mid 90's?
Regular army barracks and some reserve unit HQ's are easy - the scattered platoons and companies on the other hand.... :(

StainlessSteelCynic 11-07-2018 04:32 AM

Off the top of my head and remember that this is what I recall from the 1990s so cross-checking is probably needed :o : -

Western Australia

16 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy - Irwin Barracks, Karrakatta, Perth
A Coy - Geraldton
C Coy - Kalgoorlie, (my last unit) was in transition from understrength Company to overstrength Reconnaissance Platoon. This would have been complete by the mid-90s
Support Coy included 81mm mortars and 7.62mm SFMG

11/28 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
Now if memory serves me correctly, Targan was 11/28 so he would be the one to ask because I"m working from second-hand info.
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy (I'm uncertain of this) - Irwin Barracks, Karakatta, Perth
A Coy: -
1st Platoon - Bunbury
2nd Platoon - Albany
3rd Platoon - Katanning
I think HQ A Coy was in Bunbury but again, I am not certain
C Coy: -
I don't know but a platoon sized unit was based in Rockingham and I think this might have been the core of C Coy.
D Coy: - Irwin Barracks
I am not certain of the setup with 11/28 because at that time, some Reserve Infantry units were being strengthened with one Regular Army company

10 Light Horse, Armoured Recce
HQ, support/etc. and A Squadron - Irwin Barracks
A Vehicles included: - M113 LRV, M548 TLC, M113 Fitter's Vehicle, M577 ACV (no 76mm MRV from what I recall)

Other Reserve units in Perth at that time included, (note that I have no idea of strength, organization etc. etc.)
7 Field Battery, Medium Arty, at Irwin Barracks (I think they've been neutered and carry 81mm now)
? Field Ambulance (don't recall designation), was formerly at the Artillery Barracks in Fremantle but then moved to Irwin Barracks sometime in late-80s or early-90s.

Regional Forces Surveillance Units
These are infantry recce units equipped in a manner similar to SASR recce units with vehicles suitable to the task e.g. Far North Queensland Regiment has a number of boats on strength along with their wheeled vehicles

Pilbarra Regiment
HQ and other elements - Karratha (main garrison)
Three Squadrons although I don't know where two of them were based. One was based in Mt Newman, one was most likely in Karratha.

North-West Mobile Force AKA NORFORCE
Main AOR was Northern Territory but but also the very top end of Western Australia (within the Kimberly region)
HQ etc. etc. in Darwin, Northern Territory
Kimberly Squadron, I believe was based in Broome with detachments in Kununurra or Derby (or both for all I remember!)
The other Squadrons were all based in NT

EDIT: There was also an RACT unit at Karrakatta and I believe another logistics unit of some description although that unit may have been Regs. Palmer Barracks in South Guildford, Perth, WA was a logistics base but I believe it was Regs rather than Reserves although I don't know for certain.

And in the 1980s 'till the early 1990s, 1/15 RNSWL Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment had all units based at Lancer Barracks in Parramatta, Sydney. This was my first ARes unit. After they lost their buckets and got wheeled recce vehicles, they established one Squadron somewhere else in Sydney. 1/15 still had 76mm MRVs on strength as well as a RAEME detachment. They also had a fully working Centurion as part of the museum (although it would have been somewhat impotent without ammo for the main gun)

pmulcahy11b 11-07-2018 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcaf_777 (Post 79796)
Curious what the justification for Australia being nuked? Is this a case of it twilight so everything was was nuked?

The old, easy excuse -- denial of use to the enemy.

Legbreaker 11-07-2018 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b (Post 79843)
The old, easy excuse -- denial of use to the enemy.

That's about the only reason really that would apply, and even that's problematic given the vast distances involved. I'll likely nuke a couple of locations, but they'll be more of an afterthought than primary, or even secondary target in the greater, global scheme.
Darwin, Perth and Townsville might get attacked mostly due to their ability to support operations against Indonesia (which I'm thinking would be an "ally" of the USSR more by a case of "enemy of my enemy" than anything else).

Legbreaker 11-07-2018 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 79841)
Off the top of my head and remember that this is what I recall from the 1990s so cross-checking is probably needed :o

I've got an application in with the ADF media unit for assistance on OOBs, etc. Hoping they'll be able to do most of the work for me. :p

StainlessSteelCynic 11-10-2018 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 79845)
I've got an application in with the ADF media unit for assistance on OOBs, etc. Hoping they'll be able to do most of the work for me. :p

Nice! Hopefully they'll have a bit of detail to them.
Way back when I first joined, we did a lesson on the composition of the armoured recce regiment and the pams we were given were super detailed. Not just how many buckets, radios or GS trailers should be on strength but even the number of magazines to be issued per rifle.

Legbreaker 11-10-2018 02:29 AM

Yeah, got a source on PAMs now too. There's a Library in Melbourne that's got just about EVERYTHING! They've been bending over backwards to help out. :D
I'm actually getting swamped in detail at the moment. Far more than's actually necessary!

dude_uk 11-16-2018 02:30 PM

RN7 popped up the figures for 1996/1997. For the sake of completion I'll put up those for 1989. Give a rough idea of the Cold war mindset.

Australia

Total Armed forces
Active: 69600

Reserve: 27580 (Increasing)
Army: 25000
Navy: 12220
Air: 1360

Army (31300)

7 Military Districts

Command Troops
1 Air Defence Regiment
1 Engineer Regiment (Construction)
1 Aviation Regiment
1 SAS Regiment (3 Sqns)

1 Inf Division
1 Mech Brigade
(1 Armd, 1 Mech, 1 Para)
2 Inf Brigade ( 2 Inf Bn)
1 Recce Regiment
1 APC Regiment
4 Arty Regiment
(1 Med, 3 Fd (1 Reserve)
1 Engr Reg
1 AVN 93 Hel, 1 ac sqn)
(2 avn as hel transferring from Air force)

Army Reserves
2 Div HQ
7 Brg HQ
3 Recce reg
3 APC Sqn
17 Inf Bn
1 Cdo
6 Arty Reg (1 Med, 5 Fd)
3 Field Artillery Battery
4 Engineer Regiment ( 2 Field, 2 construction)
3 Regional Surveillance units

Army Equipment
MBT: 103 Lepard 1A3 (42 Centurion in store)
AIFV: 40 M113 with 76mm
APC: 725 M113
Towed Artillery: 105mm 142 M2A2/L5
18 Hamel 15500
35 M-198
Mortars: 81mm:284
ATGW: 10 Milan
RCL:
84MM: 574 Carl Gustav
106mm 73 M-40
SAM: 19 Rapier
19 RBS-70
Aircraft:
14 PC-6 Turbo-Porter
22 GAP N-22B Missionmaster
Helicoper:
14 S-70 (Army/Air force Crew)
47 OH-58 Kiowa
47 206B
Marine:
16 LCM
85 LARC-5 AMPH Craft


Before you go handing out the in storage Lee-Enfields. Bear in mind that Australia obtained for the license to manufacture the Streyer AUG. So if production was ramped up, you should be able to equip any new forces before the nuclear strikes.

StainlessSteelCynic 11-17-2018 03:24 AM

Just some small things with the list you posted, the 47 OH-58 Kiowas and 47 Bell 206B are referencing the same helo. They were the 206B civilian models modified for military use and retained the civilian designation.
We never had the OH-58 version.

And yes, we definitely had the licence for the AUG in the 1980s, late 80s but still the 80s. If I can actually remember back that far, I think the first versions were being mass issued in early1989, they were definitely on show in 1988 as I saw a few of them when I participated in Army Tattoo 88 in Western Australia.
My last unit got them in 1991 I think, might have been 1992 but I was carrying one for a couple of years.

I was in an Army Reserve infantry unit so we were further down the food chain when it came to distribution of the new rifles but even still, they rifle was accepted for service in 1988 and most infantry units had been fully converted to the F88 Austeyr by 1992. Less than five years so that gives some idea of how quickly we could have got serious production going (however keep in mind we're not talking hundreds of thousands of rifles, I think we requested about 90,000 in total).

Legbreaker 11-17-2018 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 79862)
I was in an Army Reserve infantry unit so we were further down the food chain when it came to distribution of the new rifles but even still, they rifle was accepted for service in 1988 and most infantry units had been fully converted to the F88 Austeyr by 1992. Less than five years so that gives some idea of how quickly we could have got serious production going (however keep in mind we're not talking hundreds of thousands of rifles, I think we requested about 90,000 in total).

41 RNSWR didn't get them until 93 - late 93 at that.
Did get the M16s and M203s 1RAR handed in though around 92.

Targan 11-22-2018 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 79841)
16 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy - Irwin Barracks, Karrakatta, Perth
A Coy - Geraldton
C Coy - Kalgoorlie, (my last unit) was in transition from understrength Company to overstrength Reconnaissance Platoon. This would have been complete by the mid-90s
Support Coy included 81mm mortars and 7.62mm SFMG

11/28 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
Now if memory serves me correctly, Targan was 11/28 so he would be the one to ask because I"m working from second-hand info.
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy (I'm uncertain of this) - Irwin Barracks, Karakatta, Perth
A Coy: -
1st Platoon - Bunbury
2nd Platoon - Albany
3rd Platoon - Katanning
I think HQ A Coy was in Bunbury but again, I am not certain
C Coy: -
I don't know but a platoon sized unit was based in Rockingham and I think this might have been the core of C Coy.
D Coy: - Irwin Barracks
I am not certain of the setup with 11/28 because at that time, some Reserve Infantry units were being strengthened with one Regular Army company

10 Light Horse, Armoured Recce
HQ, support/etc. and A Squadron - Irwin Barracks
A Vehicles included: - M113 LRV, M548 TLC, M113 Fitter's Vehicle, M577 ACV (no 76mm MRV from what I recall)

Other Reserve units in Perth at that time included, (note that I have no idea of strength, organization etc. etc.)
7 Field Battery, Medium Arty, at Irwin Barracks (I think they've been neutered and carry 81mm now)
? Field Ambulance (don't recall designation), was formerly at the Artillery Barracks in Fremantle but then moved to Irwin Barracks sometime in late-80s or early-90s.

This all looks correct to me as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure 11/28 Battalion didn't have a regular company attached in the early to mid-90s. We didn't even get Steyrs until '93 IIRC.

StainlessSteelCynic 11-22-2018 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targan (Post 79889)
This all looks correct to me as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure 11/28 Battalion didn't have a regular company attached in the early to mid-90s. We didn't even get Steyrs until '93 IIRC.

Yeah, checking with a friend who joined 16 sometime in the early 90s, I am out of synch by quite a few years. From his recollection the plan to integrate ARes and Reg formations started sometime in the mid 90s so it would have taken a good few years before it was in place, like probably the late 90s or early 2000s.
That's the problem with relying on memory! :o


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.