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Matt Wiser 02-17-2018 08:26 PM

Here's a fact file on U.S. INF during the war, which should answer your question:

One aspect of the prewar and wartime periods was the redeployment of U.S. Nuclear Forces from Europe. The one deployed GLCM Wing in the U.K, the 501st Tactical Missile Wing, remained at RAF Greenham Common, while the 487th TMW redeployed to the U.K., from Sicily. One additional wing, the 485th TMW, instead of deploying to Belgium, was deployed to the Republic of Korea, to provide INF coverage for U.S. forces in the Far East, and deter any aggression from North Korea. The two remaining GLCM Wings, the 38th and 486th, remained in the U.S. during the war. The 38th was deployed in the Southwest, with its missiles directed at potential targets in Mexico, while the 486th was home-based at Eglin AFB, FL, with its missiles aimed at targets in Cuba and Central America. Not only were nuclear GLCMs assigned to the CONUS based wings, but a wartime program to convert nuclear-armed GLCMs to conventional warheads bore fruit. Three versions were developed by General Dynamics and deployed: the GLCM-C base variant with the same 1,000 pound warhead developed for the TLAM-C, the C1 variant with the 500-pound warhead used on the Harpoon anti-ship missile, and the C3 with the submunition warhead originally developed for the TLAM-D. Only the three conventional warhead variants were used in combat. However, the nuclear armed versions acted as a reliable theater nuclear deterrent in both North America and the Far East.

The Pershing IIs were also redeployed from Europe: two battalions were redeployed to Fort Sill, OK, initially. The 1-81 FA was then deployed to Yuma Proving Ground, AZ, while the 1-41 FA went to Fort Stewart, GA. However, 3-84 FA was deployed to the ROK, while 3-9 FA remained at Fort Sill as the Pershing II training unit and as a standby operational battalion. The mobile Pershings provided a theater ballistic nuclear deterrent, aimed at targets in Mexico, Cuba, and other locations in Central America, and fulfilled their mission without having to fire a single missile in anger. The 3-84 FA remained in Korea for the duration of the war, as a continued commitment to the defense of South Korea, and to reassure the ROK government of the U.S. nuclear umbrella. While Pershing units were high-priority targets for Spetsnatz and Cuban SOF, and a number of missiles were attacked, the majority of Pershings survived the war, having maintained a viable nuclear deterrent in a theater that the system's designers, not to mention its users, never expected.

Matt Wiser 02-18-2018 12:44 AM

SA-11 is the most advanced SAM in theater. Some divisions have it, but it's mostly being used at Army level as an SA-4 replacement. Most commonly encountered SAMs at division level are SA-6 and SA-8. SA-9 or -13 at Regiment, along with ZSU-23-4s and MANPADS.

RN7 02-18-2018 09:20 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77246)
SA-11 is the most advanced SAM in theater. Some divisions have it, but it's mostly being used at Army level as an SA-4 replacement. Most commonly encountered SAMs at division level are SA-6 and SA-8. SA-9 or -13 at Regiment, along with ZSU-23-4s and MANPADS.

What about the SA-10 (S-300P) and SA-12 (S-300V)?

The Soviets designed the S-300P (SA-10) from 1967 as an air defence only missile. It entered limited service in 1978 but was operational by 1982, and about 80 SA-10 sites were believed to be operational in Russia by 1987. The S-300V (SA-12) is derived from the S-300P but also has an anti-ballistic missile capability. It entered service later and in phases, but some elements were integrated into existing air defense systems by 1983 and it entered production in 1986. The SA-12 is similar in some respects to the U.S. Patriot (PAC-2).

The SA-10 and SA-12 were designed from the outset for high mobility and effectiveness against targets at all altitudes. Early versions of the SA-10 could engage targets at ranges of 47km at altitudes of up to 82,000 feet moving at 4,300 kph. Later versions have ranges of over 100km and can hit targets moving at 10,000 kph. The S-300V can target ballistic missiles across ranges of 40 km, and can target aircraft at 75 km to 100 km.

As well as air defence both missiles were developed to destroy Western ISR assets such as the E-3 AWACS, E-8 JSTARS and U-2, and also tactical jamming aircraft like the EF-111A Raven and EA-6B Prowler. The S-300V could also be used against US tactical ballistic missiles, specifically the Lance and Pershing I/II, and also the FB-111A's supersonic AGM-69A SRAM standoff missile, and the BGM-109 GLCM.

I think it would be highly likely that the Soviets would deploy at least a few of these missile systems near their higher command and control centres in North America.

Matt Wiser 02-19-2018 09:21 PM

SA-10s were in Mexico during the war-and near the end, the Monterey area was a no-go for many tac air for that reason. SA-10s were also in Occupied Canada and Alaska, and were captured there after the Soviet surrender in the Northern Theater on 14 Oct 89.

SA-12 never made it over. One battalion was due to come over for a combat trial in Texas, but....the ship carrying the missiles arrived in Cuba, but the ship with the TELs and radar was sunk.

Matt Wiser 02-19-2018 09:47 PM

Second strike of the day:

Over Central Texas, 1030 Hours Central War Time:

Rambler Flight was headed south, following their pre-strike refueling. The tanker track was a busy one, with KC-135s, KC-10s, and Marine KC-130s busy passing fuel to aircraft that needed it, and as the crews topped off their tanks, they also noticed the F-14s and F-15s orbiting on CAP. Not only were they protecting the tankers, but there were other high value assets-like AWACS and RC-135s-around, and those needed protection. Ivan had come north after the AWACS in the past, and they would likely try again.

As the strike flight headed south along the Brazos, Guru had his head on a swivel. He was checking his instruments, then he was keeping an eye out for threats, then checking his EW display. So far, so good. All clear, and even the Red AWACS to the south wasn't showing up. Had somebody done something about it? Guru hoped so. “Granbury coming up?”

“Thirty seconds,” Goalie said. She was paying attention to the navigation, and not just with the DMAS and the INS, but also the old-fashioned way: compass, stopwatch, and a map. But she, too, like the other GIBs, also scanned visually for threats, and checked her own EW display. “Sky's clear.”

“For now,” Guru said. Then the U.S. 377 bridge appeared, and the East German flak gunners opened up, as usual, from the west side. The Nicaraguans to the east, though, rarely shot at them, unless they had been attacked earlier, and this time, their guns stayed silent.

“No traffic on the bridge,” Goalie observed as Rambler Flight blew past.

“Maybe next time,” Guru said. “Granbury Dam next up.”

“Copy that,” Goalie replied. “Forty-five seconds. One minute thirty to the Glen Rose Bridge.” That was U.S. 67.

The flight continued south, hugging the east shore of Lake Granbury, and as the Dam became visible, the AAA from the west side came up.

“East Germans are active today,” Guru observed as the flak puffs appeared. None were close, but still, some East German might get lucky....fortunately, Rambler Flight was too fast to track visually.

“We're not the only ones who have to earn our pay,” Goalie quipped. “Forty-five seconds to Glen Rose.”

“Roger that,” Guru replied. He checked his EW display and a strobe appeared, followed by the SEARCH warning light. “Got a strobe at One,” he called.

“Got it,” Goalie said. “Want to bet it's that Mainstay again?” She was referring to the Soviets' Il-76 Mainstay AWACS, of which there were several in theater.

“No bet,” Guru replied. Hopefully, they were far enough away, and too low, to be picked up. He called their own AWACS. “Warlock, Rambler Lead. Say threats?”

“Rambler Lead, Warlock,” an AWACS controller replied. “Threat bearing One-six-five for fifty. Medium, going away. Second threat bearing One-eight-five for sixty-five. Medium, closing. Third threat bearing Two-one-five for eighty. Medium, going away.”

“Roger, Warlock,” Guru replied. Almost immediately, the Glen Rose Bridge appeared. And so did the AAA from the west side of the Brazos.

“Glen Rose,” Goalie called. “East Germans are right on time,” she said as the flak-both 23-mm and 57-mm-came up. “Thirty seconds to the Brazospoint Bridge, and two minutes to the North Lake Whitney Bridge,” she said. The latter was State Route 174. But the former, though, signaled Libyan-occupied territory, and the Libyans would shoot. And keep shooting even after the strike birds had left.

“Got it,” Guru said. A quick look at the EW showed that strobe still there. “Flight, Lead. Music on,” he ordered. That meant to turn on their ECM pods.

Kara replied, “Roger, Lead,” and the others followed.

Goalie checked her map, then the INS, then called, “Brazospoint coming up.”

“Got it,” Guru said. And this time, there was flak coming from both sides as both East Germans and Libyans were shooting. One could tell the difference, though. The Libyans hardly aimed and simply sprayed fire into the air. The East Germans at least tried to hit what they were aiming at, but the F-4s were too low and too fast to properly track.

“One minute thirty to the 174 Bridge.”

“Copy,” Guru replied. Then he got on the line to the AWACS. “Warlock, Rambler Lead. Say threats.”

The controller replied at once. “Rambler, Warlock. Threat bearing One-seven-five for fifty-five. Medium, closing. Second threat bearing One-nine-zero for sixty-five. Medium, going away. Third threat bearing Two-one-zero for seventy-five Medium, closing.”

“Roger that, Warlock,” said Guru.

“One minute to North Lake Whitney,” Goalie said.

“Lead, Sweaty. Those Libyans are still shooting,” Sweaty called.

Beneath his oxygen mask, Guru smiled. Qaddafi's boys were living up to their reputation. “Let'em,” he replied.

Goalie then called, “Thirty seconds.”

The flight thundered along the Brazos, and then the Route 174 Bridge appeared. Guru made the call. “Bridge dead ahead,” he said. “Flak at Eleven, and at One.” The Libyan and East German gunners were quick to shoot as soon as the American aircraft appeared. “Follow me.” He dropped even lower than their initial ingress altitude of 450 feet, down to 300, as they blew past the bridge and Lake Whitney opened up.

“One minute thirty to turn point,” Goalie said after they went past the bridge.

“Got it,” Guru said. He checked the EW display. The strobe was still there, but not as bright. Good. Maybe dropping lower over the lake meant that the Mainstay had lost them-if it had acquired them in the first place.

As Rambler Flight headed south, the usual mix of locals, Soviet, East German, and Libyan soldiers, all looking to supplement their rations with a fresh catch from the lake, were fishing. Some had rowboats, but most were fishing from the lakeshore. The locals waved at the F-4s as they flew by, not knowing if the pilots could see them, while the soldiers more often as not, looked at each other. If the Yankees were flying into liberated territory with impunity, even if the Socialist Bloc Air Forces controlled the skies, then that boast made by many a political officer was clearly untrue. And if that was the case, how much else of the bullshit they had been fed was also a lie?

The locals, for their part, smiled and shook hands. Seeing the Air Force going after those Red bastards meant the front lines were getting closer. Wouldn't be long now, then the Army gets here, they thought.

“How long to the turn point?” Guru asked his GIB.

“Thirty seconds,” Goalie said. She started mentally counting down. “Turn in five, four, three, two, one...NOW!”

Guru put 512 into a hard right turn, and lined up on a course of Two-seven-zero. Twenty-four miles to Meridian, and that meant another ninety seconds. But... “EW still has the search radar.” Guru said. They had climbed from 300 to 400 feet AGL.

“He might have us,” Goalie noted. “One minute thirty to Meridian.”

“Maybe,” replied Guru. So far, no additional radars coming up, though they were now in what Intel said was the 4th Guards Tank Army's area.

“One minute,” Goalie said as they drew closer.


“Thirty seconds,” said Goalie. “No other radars.”

“Flight, Lead. Maintain visual scanning,” Guru reminded the others. “No radars doesn't mean they're not there.”

“Meridian coming up. And....turn,” Goalie told Guru as the flight flew over the center of town.

“Turning to Two-five-zero,” Guru said. “No flak.”

“Good to see.”

In Meridian, the Soviets from the 144th GMRD's 254th GMRR were wondering what was coming next. They had been through a buzz saw earlier in the week, and now, the Americans were bombing their assembly areas. The mostly Estonian reservists who made up the division's rank and file had had a rude awakening to combat, and their officers, mostly Russians, also had a similar wakeup to what combat was really like. Those who had survived, that is, as the regimental commander in Meridian remarked to his Chief of Staff.

Now, the new divisional commander had arrived, and he was having a look for himself. The new commander had been appointed by General Suraykin to take over the division, when 4th Guards Tank Army had found out the lieutenant colonel acting commander had run a battalion before, and with all four maneuver regimental commanders either dead or in the hospital, and the divisional staff in tatters after American air and artillery strikes, an experienced hand was needed.

Major General Nikolai Malyshev had seen it before: in Missouri the previous year, when he took over the 6th Guards Motor-rifle Division at General Suraykin's request, and led it out of the Ozarks, though a shadow of its former self. He had supervised the rebuilding of the 6th Guards, before Moscow wanted him back to lecture on the Missouri Offensive at the Freunze Academy. As a result, he'd missed Wichita, and Suraykin had asked for his old classmate to come back. Though Suraykin had a Chief of Staff, he wanted Malyshev to help rebuild units that had been shattered, and if necessary, take command and get them back into shape. From what he'd seen of the 144th, which had expected to only run into American paratroopers, only to be shot up by what General Suraykin's intelligence officer said was the First Cavalry Division and the Third Armored Cavalry Regiment. As a result, the division was now combat ineffective, even by Soviet standards, and General Suraykin wanted an expereienced commander to get the division ready to return to combat.

Malyshev had just gotten out of an APC-a BTR-60PB was not likely to attract attention from American aircraft, and the American Resistance was not very active here, but still, an APC was safer than a staff car. He was looking for the acting Regimental Commander when shouts of “AIR ALARM!” sounded. Malyshev looked up, and four F-4 Phantoms flew over the town, turning to the southwest as they did so. Despite the presence of the Soviets, Malyshev heard cheers from the local population, and shook his head. At least they're not hitting this regiment today, he thought as he went to find the acting regimental commander.

“Steady on two-four-zero,” Guru said after the turn.

“Roger that,” replied Goalie. “One minute thirty to Fairy,” she added.

“Copy,” Guru replied. A quick glance at the EW display still showed that SEARCH radar. “Damned Mainstay.”

In the back seat, Goalie saw it as well. “He's had us since when?”

“Granbury,” Guru spat. “Somebody needs to do something about him.” He scanned the sky around and it was clear. And Kara was right with him, while Sweaty and Hoser were on the left.

“Thirty seconds,” Goalie called. The town soon appeared, and the term “town” was an understatement. Just a few houses and a church. “Turn....NOW!”

“Roger that,” Guru said, turning roughly north, picking up and following F.M. 1602.

“Thirty seconds to pull,” Goalie said. “Switches?

“Set 'em up,” acknowledged Guru. “Everything in one pass.” Then he called the flight. “Flight, Lead. Switches on and stand by to pull.”

She worked the armament panel, then replied, “All set.”

“Copy that,” Guru said. “Ready to pull.”

“Pull in five, four, three, two, one, PULL!”

Guru pulled up, and sure enough, the ranch ponds appeared. And so did the U.S. 281 bridge to the north, along with the town of Hico. No radars on the EW other than the Mainstay....and there was the fuel dump, as advertised. “Ready?”

“Born ready,” Goalie replied. “All set back here.”

“Roger that!” Guru said. “Flight, Lead. Target in sight.” Then he went down on his bomb run.

In Hico, the East German Major who commanded the garrison was still not in a good mood. The Soviet Rear-Area Protection troops had flatly refused to mount any sort of patrols outside town, other than a ten-kilometer radius along U.S. 281 and State Highway 6, and, given the average age of the reservists who had manned the division was forty, he was not surprised in the slightest. Though the Stasi officer assigned to him still insisted there were “Counterrevolutionary bandits and Fascist elements in the area,” the lack of any serious guerrilla activity would have told him otherwise. But the occasional slashed tire, anti-Soviet art on the walls, snipped telephone lines, and the occasional sniper fire told the Major that the underground in the area was laying low, biding its time until the U.S. Army moved further south. At least that PSD swine is out of my hair, the Major thought. A newly arrived T-54 tank had run over the man as it was being unloaded from a tank transporter, and no one shed a tear-even the Stasi man had his own disagreements, and the townspeople felt they were better off with him out of the way.

The Major was still concerned about the lack of serious AA defenses, though. Apart from some machine guns, a few ZU-23s around the fuel dump at the 281 bridge, and a few others at the truck park, the only real AA guns were a battery of 61-K (M-1939) 37-mm guns belonging to the Soviet Rear-Area Protection Troops, and they were next to useless against modern aircraft, being visually aimed. As for missiles? The only SAMs he had were Strela-3 (SA-14) shoulder-fired missiles used by both his men and the Russians. At least there were missile gunners on the roofs of several buildings, the Major thought.

So far, they hadn't been bombed yet, but the Major knew it was only a matter of time. He returned to his desk, when he heard shouting outside his office window. The Major opened the window, and heard two words that chilled his heart. “AIR RAID!” Instead of going to the basement, the Major ran to the roof, followed by several other officers.

“Lead's in hot!” Guru called as he rolled 512 in on his bomb run. He picked out the fuel dump, and as he came in, the gunners down below began shooting. The softball-sized tracers coming up meant ZU-23s, and whoever down there was shooting, they weren't accurate. Someone even shot an SA-7 type missile at him-from head on, and that missile was simply a fireworks display as the weapon flew past 512 without guiding. Ignoring the flak, Guru lined up the fuel dump in his pipper. Good morning, Franz....this is your wake-up call, he thought. “Steady....Steady.....And....HACK!” Guru hit the pickle button, releasing his twelve Mark-82 Snakeyes down onto the fuel dump, then he pulled up and away, As he did both he and Goalie noticed some small puffs of smoke just below the aircraft. Looked like 37-mm. No matter, for 512 pulled away from the area, jinking to avoid flak. “Lead off target.”

“Of all the...” the Major muttered as Guru's F-4 went down on the fuel dump. He watched the bombs being released, then the F-4 pulled up as the bombs landed in the dump and exploded, sending up orange and black fireballs as fuel drums and tanks exploded. A soldier on a nearby building fired an Strela-3, but the weapon failed to track. Cursing, the Major scanned the sky, wondering when the next one was coming. He didn't have long, for another Imperialist F-4 was coming in.

“SHACK!” Goalie yelled from 512's back seat. “We got the fuel dump!”

“Secondaries?” Guru asked, though he knew that any kind of bomb inside a fuel dump would produce that result. He continued jinking to avoid any flak or MANPADS,

“Big ones!”

“Their lucky day,” Guru said as he headed west towards Proctor Lake.

“Two in hot!” Kara called out as she brought 520 in on the bomb run. She saw the CO make his run, and the results were very satisfying, for several fireballs erupted in 512's wake. Kara then came down on the truck park, and there was some flak coming up from there, as well as outside the fuel dump. Those gunners have guts, shooting when there's a big fire behind them, she thought. Ignoring the 23-mm tracers and the 37-mm, Kara picked out several trucks in her pipper. Your turn, she said to herself. “And.....And...Steady.....NOW!” She hit the pickle button, releasing her Mark-82s onto the truck park. Then she pulled wings level and applied power as she egressed the area, jinking as she did. “Two's off safe.”

The East German Major groaned, then he heard his Political Officer mutter, “This can't be happening.” Ignoring the Party man for the present, he watched as Kara's F-4 came in, and laid down its bombs onto the truck park south of town. A dozen bomb blasts followed in the Phantom's wake, augmented by a couple of fireballs ignited by the bombs. Fuel trucks going, the Major knew. He saw the gunners on the rooftops firing, but their fire was either short, or wide, of the target, for they weren't using the proper lead. Shaking his head, he turned to the east, and saw another speck approaching, then one behind it. Two more coming in.

“GOOD HITS!” Brainiac yelled in 520's back seat. “We got secondaries!”

“How many?” Kara asked as she kept jinking, and saw an SA-7 fly harmlessly above the aircraft.


“I'll take those,” Kara said as she set course westwards, and picked up the CO's bird as she did. Now, she thought, hope we get a MiG scramble out of Brownwood...

Sweaty rolled in on her run. “Three's in hot!” She called as she came down on the fuel dump. As she did, there were more secondaries going off as more fuel drums or tanks exploded from the fires. More where that came from, she said to herself as she noticed some undamaged stacks of fuel drums-and were those fuel trucks as well? No matter. You're all going up today. Sweaty noticed the flak coming up, and ignored it, concentrating on the bomb run. She lined the fuel drums in her pipper and got ready. “Steady....And...Steady...And....NOW!” Sweaty hit her pickle button and released her Snakeyes, and a dozen more five-hundred pound bombs fell into the fuel dump. She then pulled up and away, and began jinking to throw off the aim of the flak gunners. “Three's off target.”

“Schisse...” the Major said. He'd hoped that maybe, the American pilot would have seen the fireballs going up and aborted the run. But Sweaty's F-4 came in and released, and its bombs fell within the blazing fuel dump, and more fireballs erupted as fuel drums and tanks went up. The Major glanced at the Political Officer, who was, for once, now speechless as the sight of American aircraft-and the now audible cheering from the local population, put paid to the Party line of the “Socialist Air Forces controlling the skies of Texas.” Careful not to show his slight grin, he watched as another Phantom came in.

“SHACK!” Preacher yelled in Sweaty's back seat. “We have secondaries!”

“What kind?” Sweaty wanted to know as she kept jinking. “Righteous ones?”

“Good enough for the man upstairs,” the ex-Seminary student turned weapon-systems officer replied. Wonder what Reverend Fisher back at the Seminary would think of that, Preacher thought.

“Good enough for him, good enough for me,” said Sweaty as she stopped jinking and turned west for Proctor Lake.

“Four's in!” Hoser called as he came down on the truck park. He noticed that the flak from the fuel dump had stopped, but the gunners at the truck park-and some from the town, were still shooting. Ignoring the tracers, as well as an SA-7 that flew above his aircraft, Hoser concentrated on his bomb run. He picked out several trucks in the park, and lined them up in his pipper. They grew larger as he came in on the run. “And....Steady....Steady.....NOW!” Hoser hit his pickle button, sending his dozen Snakeyes down onto the trucks below. He pulled up and away, and as he did, he was jinking to avoid flak. “Four is off safe,” Hoser called.

“Damnt!” The East German Major yelled as Hoser's F-4 made its run. He watched as the bombs came off the aircraft, and landed in the truck park. As the bombs went off, he saw several trucks tossed aside like leaves, or take direct hits and become rubbish blowing in the wind. Two or three fireballs of exploding fuel trucks added to the carnage, he noticed. After the last F-4 flew away, the anti-aircraft gunners kept shooting, much to the Major's disgust. He ordered his deputy to send runners to the guns with orders to stop. And he-and the others on the roof-heard the cheers and applause of the locals. Shaking his head, and knowing that this might not be the last, he began issuing orders. Time to get this place back in order.

“GOOD HITS!” KT hollered from the back seat. “Got some secondaries!”

“Good ones?” Hoser asked as an SA-7 flew past on the left side.

“Good ones, and a couple of good fireballs,” she replied. “That good enough?”

Hoser said, “They'll be good.” He then headed west for Proctor Lake, and picked up his element lead, Sweaty, as he did so.

In 512, Guru heard the calls. “Four in and four out.”

“And we still have a game on,” Goalie said. “One minute to Proctor Lake.”

“Copy,” replied Guru. He took a look at the EW, and saw the strobe from that Red AWACS still there. He then called, “Two, you out there?”

“Right with you,” Kara replied.

Guru took a look to the right, and 520 was right with him in Combat Spread. “Got a visual. Sweaty, how about you?”

“Coming up, and Hoser's with me,” his second element lead called.

“Gotcha,” Guru said. “Warlock, Rambler Lead. Say threats?”

“Rambler Lead, Warlock. Threat bearing Two-four-zero for forty. Medium, going away. Second threat bearing One-eight-five for fifty-five. Medium, closing. Third threat bearing One-six-five for seventy. Medium, closing.”

“Roger, Warlock.” Guru said. He had leveled out at 500 feet AGL, and was doing 540 Knots. The Central Texas landscape of ranching country and rolling hills turned into prairie as the strike flight approached Proctor Lake. Then Guru looked at his EW display. Not only did the Mainstay radar still show, but another radar appeared at their Eleven O'Clock. “Got a radar at eleven.”

“That'll be Brownwood Regional,” Goalie said. That meant Brownwood Regional Airport, and the two MiG regiments based there.

“Hope they're not paying attention,” Guru said as the lake appeared dead ahead. And so did the flak as the 23-mm and 57-mm guns defending the dam opened up. “Lake at twelve, and flak.”

“Got it, Lead,” replied Kara. “No bandits.”

“Not now,” Guru said as he turned north, roughly parallel to State Route 16, and blowing past the town of DeLeon, and the Soviets from the 32nd Army who were there. The appearance of the F-4s had been a surprise, for none of the air-defense assets reacted to their presence.

Goalie did some quick calculations. “One minute thirty to the fence,” she called. That meant the FLOT, and in this part of Texas, that also meant I-20.

“Roger that.”

“Rambler, Warlock. Threat bearing One-eight-five for forty. Medium, closing,” the AWACS controller warned. “Bandits are Fishbeds.”

“Copy, Warlock.” Guru then asked, “Red or black?” Red bandits were Soviets. Black, East Germans. Blue meant Cubans, while Green meant Libyans.

“Rambler, Warlock. Fishbeds are black,” the controller said. That meant East German MiG-21s.

Guru thought for a moment. So far, the EW still showed the Search radars-the Mainstay and the ground radar at Brownwood. No air-to-air radars yet, and the Jay Bird radar in the MiG-21 had no look-down/shoot-down mode.
“Roger, Warlock,” said Guru.

“Forty-five seconds to the fence,” Goalie advised.

“Lead, we going to give these guys a fight?” Kara asked. Ever aggressive, she was looking for a brawl.

“Only if they jump us,” Guru said.

“Rambler, Warlock. Bandits have turned. Now One-eight-zero for forty. Medium, going away.”

In 520, Kara muttered a few curses. Nine kills to her credit, and she wanted to be the first female double ace in the 335th, if not Tenth Air Force. But the day wasn't over just yet.

“Roger, Warlock,” Guru replied.

“Fence ahead,” Goalie said. The twin ribbons of I-20 appeared up ahead.

“Got it.” Just as the flight crossed the interstate, both the ground radar at Brownwood and the Mainstay radar went off the EW display, and the SEARCH warning light went off. “And we're clear of the fence,” Guru said, breathing a sigh of relief.

“Time to take a drink, then go home,” said Goalie. That meant the post-strike refueling, then back to Sheppard.

“It is that.”

Rambler Flight then headed for the tanker track, and they drank some fuel from KC-10s this time. Then the flight headed back to Sheppard.

When they got there, the flight was second in the landing pattern, with a Marine Hornet flight ahead of them, and behind was the westbound C-141. After landing, they taxied towards their squadron dispersal, and this time, as was now usual, the news crew was filming. “They're back,” Guru noted.

“They'll be busy when General Yeager and those young pups leave,” Goalie reminded him.

“No doubt. Hell of a way to initiate a new PAO,” Guru thought out loud. “Well, she needs to get her feet wet.”

“That she does,” Goalie agreed.

The flight taxied to the dispersal area, and taxied into their revetments. Guru taxied 512 into its revetment, and followed his Crew Chief's signals. After parking, and popping the canopies, the ground crew brought out the chocks, then the CC gave the “Shut down” signal.

After shutting down, both pilot and GIB went through the post-flight check, while the ground crew brought the crew ladder. Once down from the aircraft, Guru and Goalie took off their helmets, then they did a quick post-flight walk-around. Then Sergeant Crowley, the Crew Chief, came over with a bottle of water for each. “Sir, Ma'am, how'd it go?”

“Made a fuel dump go away,” Guru said after he took a long drink.

“Away as in sky-high,” Goalie added. She, too, took a long swig of water.

Crowley smiled. “Major, Lieutenant? Good for them,” he said. “How's the bird?”

“Five-twelve's working like a champ, Sergeant,” Guru said. “Get some chow, then get her ready for the next one.”

“Yes, sir,!” Crowley said. “All right people!” He said to the ground crew. “Finish up the post-flight, chow down, then we get the CO's bird ready for another one.”

Nodding, Guru and Goalie headed for the revetment's entrance. “I'll see about cutting those orders for his R&R today,” Guru said.

“When's the last time he went?” Goalie asked. “Don't think he's missed a day in a while.”

“I'll check when I'm taking care of his R&R orders.”

When they got to the entrance, Guru and Goalie found Kara and Brainiac waiting. “How'd it go with you two?” Kara asked. “That truck park's now a junkyard.”

“Torched a lot of gas,” Guru replied.

“We saw your run,” Brainiac said. “Lots of fireballs there.”

Sweaty and Preacher, along with Hoser and KT, came up. “And there were some you guys had,” she said. “Fuel dump? More like inferno now.”

“That it is,” Hoser added. “What about those MiGs?”

“Mainstay and the ground radar didn't pick us up,” Guru said. “No contact, so they didn't try and give us a fight.”

“Too bad,” Kara grumbled.

Sweaty shook her head. “So what happened?”

“My guess, they couldn't get us on the Mainstay or ground radar, and they couldn't get a visual, either. So no joy on their part,” Hoser said. He'd been near the top of his class at the RTU, and Guru, along with some others in the squadron, felt he had the makings of a potential Aggressor pilot-if he lived through the war.

“We can take a MiG-21 down low,” Goalie said. “But up high, it's their game.”

“It is that,” Kara agreed. “So, now what, Boss?”

Guru nodded. “We debrief, then you all need to check your desks. Then we can give Yeager's people a proper sendoff. After that? Eat, and get ready to do this all over again.”

“Too bad those F-20 clowns are leaving today,” Hoser growled. “Got some unfinished business with those guys.”

“Same here,” Sweaty added. She and Preacher had been “Killed” in the DACT, and by General Yeager, no less.

Kara nodded, as did Brainiac. “Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking that.”

“Save it until after the war, people,” Guru said firmly. “I know, we've all got unfinished business with those guys. We'll take care of it after the war.”

“If we all live that long,” KT reminded everyone.

Heads nodded at that little detail. “Something to keep in mind,” the CO said. “Come on: the sooner we debrief, the sooner we can see those clowns out of here.”

Matt Wiser 02-19-2018 09:54 PM

Yeager's people leave:

335th TFS, Sheppard AFB, TX; 1115 Hours Central War Time:

Major Matt Wiser sat at his desk, clearing some paperwork that had come in while he was out on the previous mission. At least none of this crap's really important, he thought, but the activities of the species known as bureaucrats meant that, to them, everything was important. Once he was finished with the bureaucratic nonsense, he went to his filing cabinet and took out a form. As he filled it out, there was a knock at his office door. “Yeah? Show yourself and come on in!”

His backseater and girlfriend, 1st Lieutenant Lisa “Goalie” Eichhorn, came in, two plastic bags in one hand, and a carrier for drinks in the other. “The CO ready for lunch?” She grinned.

“Let me finish this first,” the CO nodded. “Setting up Sergeant Crowley's R&R.” Staff Sergeant Mike Crowley was their Crew Chief, and the Major wanted to reward Crowley by bumping him up in the R&R rotation if possible. Guru-the CO's call sign-had found out that Crowley was due in a few weeks anyway, so....”He goes over Christmas.”

“Christmas with family...” Goalie said wistfully. “He'll be one lucky stiff.”

Guru agreed with that. “That he will. Two weeks at home with family, enjoy yourself, and oh, Sergeant, that's an order.”

His girlfriend nodded. “Ordering someone to have fun? First time for that.”

“It is,” the CO said. “What's for lunch?”

“Real burgers, not bison or turkey, but real beef,” Goalie said. “Probably from Australia.”

“That's essential wartime aid,” Guru joked. “Not Foster's. Before we eat, any word on the F-20 guys?”

Goalie nodded. “They're eating now. Then they'll be on their way. And before you ask, I did see Pruitt taking a couple of those suggestion of tri-tip sandwiches.”

The CO shook his head in disbelief. “Said it before, but is he crazy? He must have a cast-iron stomach.”

“He must want to satisfy the Cruel and Unusual Nourishment people,” Goalie joked.

“Guess so. Let's eat.”

After they ate, both pilot and GIB headed outside. There, IDF Major Dave Golen and his flight were sitting on the lawn, having their own lunches. “Dave,” Guru said. “How's it going so far?”

“Paid some Libyans a visit,” Golen replied. “There was a brigade assembly area. We disassembled some of their armor.”

“Via Mark-82 and Rockeye,” Goalie commented.

The IDF pilot nodded. “That it was.”

“How are your temps shaking out?” Guru asked. He was referring to the third crew, who were Major Frank Carson's wing crew, but since Carson was grounded for a couple of days, they were flying with Golen and his wingmate, 1st Lt. Sandi “Flossy” Jenkins.

“So far, so good,” Golen said, and Flossy nodded agreement, as did their GIBs. “If anything happens to Frank, they can come back and fly with us.”

“Be glad to, Major,” Capt. Sean Hennings, who was the pilot, said. “Beats flying with Frank,”

“Same here,” 1st Lt. Melissa Brewster, the GIB, said.

“All right,” Guru said. “You all be careful. Don't need any letter-writing today.”

“Will do, Guru,” Golen said.

Then the CO's wingmate came over. Capt. Kara “Starbuck” Thrace was the Assistant Ops Officer, and had the job when the Ops Officer, Capt. Don Van Loan, was out on a mission. Like now. “Boss, Goalie? Yeager's people are getting ready to leave.”

“Now?” Guru asked.

“They're getting set to do their preflights.”

“Then we'd best get over there. General Olds know?”

Kara nodded. “Told him first thing.”

“Well,” the CO grinned. “If you want to see off the F-20s, best get over there. Unless you have grudges, of course.”

“Who, me?” Kara asked with mock innocence. “Just wish I was seeing those punks off with a good kick in the ass.” Everybody knew she was still angry about how the DACT had gone, and being “killed” by General Yeager in that little fracas.

“You're not the only one feeling that way,” Guru said.

“Somebody still needs to teach those young punks a lesson,” Goalie spat. She had been in Kara's back seat when “Killed” by Yeager. “And if we can't, then I know folks who can.”

“Aggressors?” Kara asked.

“You got it.”

When Guru, Goalie, and Kara got there, most of the 335th people who weren't on strikes were there, along with a number of MAG-11's Marines and a few Navy from VA-135. Guru found General Yeager talking with General Olds, Colonel Brady, and two of the Marines' squadron commanders. “Major,” General Olds said. “Here to see Yeager's people off?”

“General,” Guru said, sketching a salute. “You could say that, sir.” He turned to General Yeager. “Sir, it's been an honor and a pleasure to meet you, and to fly with you. Though nothing was really settled on that hop.”

“No, Major, I don't think so,” Yeager agreed. He shot a glance at Clancy's aircraft, where Clancy and Kara were already arguing. “Those two, especially. They've got some unfinished business.”

“They'll meet again,” Olds predicted. “Somebody's going to be an Aggressor, and the other will be visiting Nellis. Sparks will fly-and maybe fists as well.”

Colonel Brady nodded. “I'll have to agree with that, sir. And I'm just glad no fists flew here. Somebody made a remark about the F-20 being the greatest since the P-51, and at some F-15 or F-16 base, those might be fighting words.”

“I'll take that under serious advisement,” Yeager said. “Major? Thanks again for the DACT. You guys gave us a good run.”

“Likewise, sir,” Guru replied. “Those of us still alive after the war? We'll be up for a rematch.”

“Take you up on that,” Yeager grinned. “It was good to have Robin up on that one.”

General Olds had a grin on his face himself. “Wouldn't have missed it for the world, Chuck.” He turned to Guru. “Major? Any word back from the Chief of Staff on either the Yak kill or the DACT?”

“No, sir,” replied Guru. “Not yet, and I'm wondering if that shoe will drop.”

“It will,” Olds said. “I know Sundown, and he'll probably be advising General Dugan on a course of action. Though when he comes around, hopefully he'll be kicking someone else off base.”

“That snotty Major?” Yeager asked.

Guru nodded. “The same.”

“Couldn't happen to a nicer asshole.”

Over by his F-20, Clancy was talking with Kara and a couple of others. “You're good,” she said. “But way too overconfident.”

“Thanks,” Clancy grinned. “Even though you did 'kill' me. And you guys were just as cocky.”

“We'll settle this,” Kara declared. “Nellis. Sometime after the war.”

“If you two live that long,” Hoser said. He'd listened to the exchange. Though he, too, had a score to settle with these punks.

Both antagonists shrugged. “Well, we'll have to see,” Clancy said.

“That we will,” Kara nodded. A chance to show this punk-again-who was superior, though it was likely she'd be the one in the F-15E trying to nail this guy in his F-5 or F-20. If the AF decided to use them as Aggressors, she thought.

“Leave it, Matt,” Pruitt said as he went to his bird. “Last thing we need is a grudge with these guys. Still got the Russians to worry about.”

“We said, 'after the war'.” Clancy shot back.

“That we did,” Kara added. For once, she agreed with Clancy-and that was probably the only thing they ever would agree on.

“Major?” Prada said as she came to shake Guru's hand. “Thanks. For letting me know about Daria.” Her sister had been confirmed as a POW in Cuba, and Guru had been the one to tell her-along with General Yeager.

“You're welcome, and be glad you're taking that IP job,” Guru said. “One less thing for your parents to worry about.”

“Don't worry about missing out,” General Olds added. He reminded her, “You're not missing a damned thing. And when you do come back? We'll be on the Rio Grande, and still have plenty of work to do.”

“That we will,” General Yeager agreed.

“I know, sir,” Prada nodded. “Doesn't change the way I feel, though.”

“Understood,” Yeager replied. “Take my advice: it's for the best.”

Prada smiled. “It is, sir.”

A captain from the Air Base Group came over and said a few words to Colonel Brady. Brady nodded, then said, “General, both C-130s are loaded up and ready to go.”

“Thanks, Colonel. It's been fun, but time to move on. Time to drop in on the ROKs,” Yeager said. “Robin,” he said to General Olds. “I'll check back at Nellis before we go back to Edwards.”

“I'll brief General Tanner on how this little fracas went,” Olds said, shaking Yeager's hand.

“Colonel?” Yeager said to Colonel Brady. “It's been a pleasure being here.”

“And an honor to have you here, sir,” Brady replied, shaking Yeager's hand.

The General nodded, said a few words to the Marines, then came to Guru. “Major? Glad to have flown with you and your people.”

“Thank you, sir,” Guru replied. “And sir? It's been an honor and a privilege to have met you, and flown with you. Even if it didn't work out the way both parties wanted.”

Yeager laughed, and nodded in reply. “Well, Major. You're doing a good job, and good luck. Not just with the bad guys, but the RAF when they get here.”

“Thank you, sir.”

Then Yeager rounded up his people, as the two C-130s taxied for takeoff. People backed well away as the three F-20Cs and one D started engines. And it was strange to see one with eleven and a half German Crosses and one Red Star on the side lead the F-20s to the runway. Then all four taxied for takeoff, and it wasn't long before they rumbled down the runway and into the air.

“Well, folks, show's over,” General Olds noted. “If you don't have a mission yet, you'll have one shortly.”

“You heard him,” Colonel Brady said. “Back to work, people!”

As the crowd broke up, Guru found his Ops Officer. “Don, glad to see those people go?”

“Be glad to be back to normal,” Van Loan said. “For twenty-four hours, then the RAF gets here.”

Guru sighed. What was it about this base that got this kind of attention? Oh, well. “Got a mission for us?”

“Birds should be ready. Mission briefing packet's ready for you, and several others.”

The CO nodded. “Okay.” He looked around for someone from his flight, then saw one. “KT!”

“You asked, Boss?” She replied.

“Round up the rest of the flight. Briefing room in fifteen.”

“On my way, boss,” Hoser's GIB said.

Goalie then came up to Guru. “We've got a mission?”

“That we do. Once more unto the breach,” Guru said.

“Henry V”, Van Loan said.

“Yep. Just as long as we don't do that 'close the walls up with our dead', crap,” Guru said. “Time to get back in the game, people.” The day was still only half over, and there were missions to fly.

Matt Wiser 02-19-2018 10:49 PM

And this particular story arc is finished....and note the honor give to the squadron's mascot...

335th TFS Offices, Sheppard AFB, TX: 1650 Hours Central War Time:

Major Matt Wiser was at his desk, clearing out some paperwork before going to the Officer's Club. It had been a busy day, with four missions, and seeing off General Yeager and his F-20 demo flight, and to top matters, a 335th bird had come back with some significant battle damage. The CO was glad that he wouldn't have to write any letters, but still....the squadron had been lucky, as it had been over two weeks since they had lost anyone. Though, as the Major knew, that kind of luck wouldn't last forever, and they would lose more people and airplanes.

Guru put the last of the papers into his OUT bin, opened one of his desk drawers, and pulled out the J.C. Penny's Christmas Catalog. Since it was highly unlikely that he'd be able to hit the local shopping malls....then he heard a knock on the door. “It's open! Show yourself and come on in!”

His Exec, Capt. Mark Ellis, came in, clipboard in hand. “Boss,” he nodded. “Got a few things for you before knocking off.” The XO saw the catalog on the CO's desk. “Doing your Christmas shopping?”

“Yeah, since we don't exactly have an intact shopping mall. Get something for Mom, my grandparents...”

“And Goalie.”

The CO nodded.“Okay, Mark. What have you got?”

“First, aircraft status report for MAG-11. We'll have twenty definite for the morning, and maybe twenty-one, assuming Kerry and Pat's bird is cleared after the check flight,” the XO reported.

“Good. They're flying one of the new ones from Japan, right?”

“They are,” Ellis said.

Guru nodded. “Okay, they get their bird back, and that new one goes to Dave Golen. He and Terry brought their bird back and their crew chief wasn't too happy about it.”

There was a grimace from the XO. Their IDF “Observer” had brought a damaged aircraft back-with a neat 57-mm hole in the right stabilizer, and a dud SA-7 missile in one of the right engine's afterburner feathers. “They do like their birds returned in the same shape it left in,” Ellis reminded his CO.

“Doesn't always happen, and they know it,” Guru said. “All day job for the repair?”

“Kev O'Donnell says it will be,” replied Ellis. “The engine change takes an hour or so. The elevator replacement is the big one.”

“And that leaves us with exactly one spare,” Guru noted. “Tell Ross to find a couple of sets.”

“Will do, but he's not in the habit of making promises he can't keep,” The Exec said. “Which he's told you before.”

“He has,” Guru recalled. “Okay, just tell him to do his best. What else?”

“One other thing about that bird,” said Ellis. “If Terry had to eject?” First Lieutenant Terry McAuliffe was the GIB for Golen in that crew. “The seat wouldn't have fired. They'll pull the seat and check it out.”

Guru winced at that. If the crew in question had to bail out, only Golen's seat would have fired, and McAuliffe would've gone in with the plane. “Not good....” the CO observed.

“No,” Ellis agreed. “Supply requesitions,” he went on as the CO went through the rest of the forms. “And Chief Ross found some more laser bomb kits.”

“How many?”

“Three dozen.”

Guru thought for a minute. “Okay. We're likely to do some more of those UNODIR strikes, and I'd like to know who in the Tenth Air Force ATO shop is sending us after point targets with the wrong ordnance. That 'Liberation Radio' we hit yesterday got the ordnance it deserved, not what the ATO called for.”

Ellis nodded. “General Olds going to do some digging at Nellis when he gets back?”

“That, and maybe kick some asses into gear,” Guru smiled. “What else?”

“We're making Buddy an honorary O-3 tonight. Got some kind of doggie coat for him to wear with squadron and wing patch, rank insignia, and so on,” the XO said, referring to the squadron's mascot.

Guru nodded. “That's going to perk up morale around here, though things are pretty good at the moment.”

“And he'll be upholding Roscoe's tradition,” said Ellis. He was referring to the legendary Roscoe, the mascot of the 388th TFW at Korat, Thailand, during the long war in Southeast Asia.

“That he will,” Guru said. “That it?”

“It is for now,” Ellis said.

The CO stood up and grabbed his bush hat. “Good. Now we can hit the Club.”

Guru and the XO went over to the Officer's Club tent, and found it already busy. The two found Dave Golen and Terry McAuliffe-Golen's GIB, already at the bar, working on bottles of beer. “Smitty?” Guru asked the barkeep. How many have they had so far?”

“Working on their first,” the barkeep replied. He'd seen it before in the short time he'd been working on the base. Though he'd been a longtime barkeep in Wichita Falls prewar, and had had military personnel from Sheppard among his customers, this was still new: some of his customers might not come back, and others would have close shaves with death. And he had a grudge with the Soviets and their Cuban lackeys-for one of the blocks they'd used as a strongpoint prior to the city's liberation had included his old bar, and that block was now a heap of rubble. If he'd been twenty years younger....he'd be going down to one of the improvised recruiting offices and signing his name on an enlistment form. Now, though, if he couldn't put on a uniform, helping those who did was the next best thing. “They just got here.”

“Dave,” Guru said. “How's it going?”

“Closest call I've had in three wars,” Golen said. “Yom Kippur War, had an SA-3 go off a hundred meters behind me-about three hundred and fifty feet-and had a lot of shrapnel in the tail. Got the plane back, but today...”

“You were down in the Libyan sector, right?”

Golen nodded. “Right behind the Nicaraguans.”

“And if they'd been shooting fuzed for contact or proximity, instead of timer...” Ellis said, his voice dropping off.

“You would've gone skydiving, and Terry would've gone in with the airplane,” Guru finished. “Not a happy thought.”

“No,” Golen said.

Terry McAuliffe looked up from his beer. “Major, they find out what happened with the seat?”

“No, but Kev O'Donnell's guys will find out. It'll be an all-nighter, and probably most of the day tomorrow. So you two get the bird from Japan that Kerry and Pat flew. They get their regular mount back, and you two get that one.”

“That's good,” Golen said. “And finding that SA-7 in the afterburner feathers was a bonus. Thank God for shoddy workmanship somewhere.”

“Been there, done that,” Guru replied. “Had that happen back in March,” the CO said, recalling a close call he'd had himself. “All right, you two. Get as drunk as you can before twelve-hour. I want you two up and ready, 0600 tomorrow morning.”

Golen and McAuliffe looked at each other and nodded. “Guru, that's an order we'll be glad to obey,” Golen said.

“Gladly, Major,” McAuliffe added.

“Good,” the CO said. “Smitty? A Bud for me and the Exec.”

The barkeep produced two cold bottles. “Here you go, Major,” Smitty said. “And I should be getting some Sam Adams tomorrow.”

“Thanks, Smitty,” Guru said. “Mark, our special guest?”

“Be here after dinner,” Ellis said.

“All right,” Guru nodded as General Olds and Colonel Brady came in. “General, Colonel,”

“Major,” Olds said, taking a glance at the bar. “I see Major Golen's busy trying to forget he almost got himself killed today.”

“General, been there, done that,” Guru said, and Ellis nodded.

“Same here, General,” Colonel Brady said. “Took small-arms fire doing CAS at Con Thien a couple of times. Before taking that one big hit, then five years in Hanoi.”

General Olds nodded, then noticed both all-female crews in the 335th coming in-Flossy and Jang, and Cosmo and Revlon. With Jana Wendt and her news crew right behind them, and both Kodak Griffith and the new PAO for the 335th, Lieutenant Patti Brown tailing the news crew. “Looks like the media guests are focusing on the, well, 'unmanned' crews, for want of a better term.”

“First two in the squadron, General,” Guru replied. “For all I know, they're the first two in the whole Air Force.”

“And thus the newsies are going after them,” Olds said. He'd had his own run-ins with the news media during his tour in SEA, and at least, those had been all right, before the media, in his opinion, soured on the military.

“That they are, sir,” said Guru.

“I see...well, Major, I believe there's some kind of ceremony for this evening?”

“About fifteen minutes before twelve-hour, sir,” Guru replied.

“More call signs?” Colonel Brady asked. Those never got old, from his viewpoint.

“No, not that, sir,” Ellis said. “But we think you'll like it, regardless.”

General Olds knew what they were talking about, but kept it to himself. “Colonel, consider it an Air Force surprise.”

“In that case, I'm curious,” Brady said. “As for us Marines? We'll be waiting.”

Just then, both all-female crews came in, followed by Jana Wendt and her news crew. Right behind them were both Kodak Griffith and Lieutenant Patti Brown. Kodak would be going back to the Marines, and hopefully, back to the cockpit, while Brown was the new PAO for the 335th, and was learning the ropes from Kodak, who was in a tempoary PAO billet while he healed up from an ejection-related leg injury. “Looks like the newsies are getting along with our all-female crews,” Guru noted.

“She doing a piece on the crews who flew on Day One?” Ellis asked.

“She is, and that includes you, me, Don, and seven others,” the CO reminded his Exec.

The Exec nodded, and before he went to the table where his flight was already gathering, said, “ We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.”

“That we are.”

Guru went to the table where his flight usually took, and found his people there for the most part. But two were missing. “Where's Goalie and Kara?”

“They went for their cameras,” Brainiac said. “Given what's on the agenda tonight.”

Right then, both Goalie and Kara came in with their respective cameras. “Wouldn't miss this for the world,” Kara said.

“Not every day you give out something like this,” Goalie added. They set down their cameras, then went to the bar and got their drinks. When they got back, she said, “Dave's trying to forget about nearly getting killed today.”

“You're not the first to make that comment,” Guru replied. “You two ready?”

“All set, Boss,” Kara nodded.


“Got some newspapers,” KT said as she came in with Hoser. “LA Times for the CO, Orange County Register for Goalie, and who wants the SF Chronicle, USA Today, Stars and Stripes, and our old friends from the Arizona Republic?”

People got what they wanted, and read while waiting on the mess people to bring dinner. Guru was reading the L.A. Times when their RAF liaison officer came in. “Jack, any word on when your people get here?”

“Sometime between noon and thirteen hundred,” Flight Lt. Steve “Jack” Lord said. “And you might be interested in what I heard on the BBC. Seems the President of Costa Rica-some chap named Arias-offered to mediate an end to the war.”

“Any response?” General Olds asked.

“No, sir, other than what your Secretary of State said. 'What's to mediate?'” Lord replied.

“That's pretty much it,” Kara noted. “We're not stopping until the Rio Grande at least, if not Mexico City.”

“No arguing that,” Goalie said. “OCR says Willy Brandt-he's the former West German Chancellor-urged, and I quote, 'the current government to dissolve and to call for new elections, before certain forces in the country take action themselves.'” She looked up from the paper. “He's telling them, 'quit, or there'll be a coup.'”

“Holy...” Guru said. “Where'd he say this?”

“On ZDF TV, the article says. He did an interview for 'em.”

Colonel Brady heard that, and turned to his own intelligence officer, a light colonel. “Colonel? When's the coup coming there?”

The Marine light colonel thought for a couple of moments. “Two weeks, maybe three,” he said.

“Can't come soon enough,” several people said.

“Teach those commie-lovers a lesson,” Sweaty added.

Guru nodded, then his jaw dropped. “Page three, L.A. Times. A brief press release from the Air Force.” He handed the paper to Goalie. “General Yeager's Yak kill.”

“It made the papers?” Jana Wendt said. “I thought there was a blackout!”

“If the Air Force issues the release,” Patti Brown said, “That might be their way of saying it's lifted. Haven't heard anything yet.”

“And you'd be the first to know,” said Ms. Wendt.

“We would,” Kodak Griffith nodded.

General Olds spoke up. “I'll call General Tanner first thing in the morning. See if they've heard anything on his end.”

“Thank you, General,” Ms. Wendt replied.

Then the restauanteurs came in with dinner. Everyone was glad they were running the Mess operation instead of the usual Marines, and the quality of the food showed that. “Folks, we've got barbequed pork, with chili and cornbread, or grilled chicken breasts, with all the fixin's. Come and get it.”

After people got their dinners, they ate, and then the CBS Evening News came on AFN. “Good evening from Los Angeles,” Walter Cronkite began. “Today, an offer from the President of Costa Rica, leading a delegation from several Non-Aligned nations to mediate an end to the war, was dismissed by not only President Bush, but Prime Minster Mulroney of Canada and Britain's Prime Minister Thatcher, but also by the Soviets. Our White House Correspondent, Leslie Stahl, has a report.”

“The offer is a serious one, White House sources say, and though it did not go into much detail, the Allies found the offer unacceptable. Secretary of State James Baker, coming out of a meeting with the President and his National Security team, had this to say:” Secretary Baker's image came on the camera, and he was responding to several reporters' shouted questions as he left the hotel that was serving as the temporary White House. 'What's to mediate? Pull out of occupied territories, release of all prisoners, and pay reparations. That should be simple enough for Mr. Arias to relay.' Administration sources say that President Bush has spoken by phone with Mr. Arias, as have the other Allied leaders, and reiterated those conditions. So far, Mr. Arias has not responded, other than he hopes to visit the Allied-as well as what he referred to as the 'Soviet-bloc' capitals in the near future. While the White House says Mr. Arias will be warmly received, his proposals will not. Leslie Stahl, CBS News, at the temporary White House.”

“Good luck,” Don Van Loan muttered. “Nobody's in any kind of mood to mediate.”

“I'll go along with that,” Mark Ellis added. “This guy trying to earn a Nobel Prize or something?”

“Look at it from his point of view,” Colonel Brady said. “He's got the bad guys to the north of him in Nicaragua, and we've got a pretty sizable garrison still in Panama to protect the Canal.”

“So he thinks he's caught between both sides, and wants to stay neutral no matter what,” General Olds observed.

Brady nodded. “Something like that, sir,”

Then came a report on several towns in West Texas that were slowly getting back to normal, towns like Snyder Post, Lamesa. Schools reopening, stores open, damage being repaired, and to Texans, high-school football getting going again-something that had been banned by the occupiers, and so on. The locals were very grateful to their liberators, and though U.S. Army Military Police and Engineers were busy, the patrols through the towns were being run either by the ROK Expeditionary Force or the Taiwanese 1st Mechanized Division. The report wrapped outside a small cemetery near Snyder, where a dozen Taiwanese soldiers killed in the liberation of the town had been laid to rest. An ROC flag flew overhead, and local citizens came to pay their respects.

“Tells you who your friends are,” Guru said.

“It does, Major,” General Olds said. “Keep in mind that there were West Germans, Dutch, Belgians, and others serving exchange tours here when the balloon went up. They were ordered home, and all of them disobeyed.”

“Doesn't change the way a lot of folks feel,” Kara added.

“No, it doesn't, Captain,” said the General. “When this is all over, sorting things out is going to take a while.”

Then came reports from a carrier in the Sixth Fleet, flying strikes into Libya to remind Qaddafi he'd picked the wrong side, and from London, where a Labour politcian was raising a stink about both the American strikes on two Soviet command bunkers and the British firing a Polaris missile at Argentina's main naval base to prevent a second Falklands invasion. “This Corbyn fella better shut up,” Sweaty commented. “Or they'll haul his ass into the slammer.”

“Reminds me of what they said about Ramsey Clark,” Guru said. “Going to North Vietnam in '72, Iran in '80, hell, he even defended a Nazi Concentration Camp guard, saying that after forty years, it was time to move on.”

“You're kidding,” Goalie said. She then saw her pilot's expression. “You're not.”

“Nope,” Guru said. “He and Jane Fonda should've been in the dock for going to North Vietnam in '72,” the CO spat.

Dave Golen asked, “That bad?”

Colonel Brady, who'd been in Hanoi at the time, said, “They weren't torturing then, they stopped in September '69. But ther were a few who were collaborating to save their own skins-and they met with those, and several others who were coerced-say, a guy who needs a new cast for his broken arm, and the NVA tell him, 'See Mr. Clark or Ms. Fonda, and we'll change your cast.' You'd be surprised how effective that can be.”

After several more reports, including another Charles Kuralt feature, this time from Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, where the war at sea was just over the horizon, but was ever-present. For wreckage and bodies often washed ashore, and those who had died at sea were given a respectful burial by either the Coast Guardsmen who manned the station, or by the Outer Banks citizenry. Several British sailors who had been killed when their armed trawler had been sunk by a U-Boat were buried there, and recently, several more whose frigate had been sunk by a Soviet sub off the Cape, had joined them, their graves tended by the local residents.

“And that's the way it is, from all of us at CBS News, Good Night,” Cronkite signed off.

AFN then went to a rerun of a Chicago Bears-Green Bay Packers game from 1981, as Kara got up to go to the Pool Table. “Time to hold court.”

“Still angry Yeager beat you?” Sweaty laughed.

“You're damned right I am!” Kara shot back. “One more score to settle with those guys when this is all over.”

“Kara, he's been doing it since before you were born, hell, your parents were in high school when he started,” Guru reminded her.

“Doesn't change the way I feel, Boss,” she said, then went to the bar, got a beer, then headed to the Pool Table.

General Olds grinned, then said, “My last night here, so it's only fair she gets another crack at me.” He went to the pool table, and both combatants laid down their money. This time, it was Kara's skills that proved superior, and General Olds paid the $50.00. Unlike many who'd lost to Kara, he didn't come back in a fit of the sulks. “She's good.”

“As good as the guys at Udorn back in the day, sir?” Guru asked.

“A couple guys were better than that,” General Olds noted as he got himself a glass of club soda. “Sundown Cunningham for one.”

Heads turned and jaws dropped at that. “You mean, sir, General Cunningham ruled the Pool Table at Udorn?”

“He did,” Olds said matter of factly. “Wouldn't mind finding out who's better, him, or Captain Thrace.”

Around the 335th's tables, there was silence for a moment. “Uh, if he comes,” Ellis said. “What happens if she wins?”

“Good question, Mark,” Guru said. A feeling of dread came over him all of a sudden. “It's Frank we want packing for colder climes...”

“He's not that type,” Olds reassured him. “If he loses, he smiles, nods, pays what's owed, then beats the next three who play him to show it wasn't a fluke.”

Guru and Kara looked at each other, and then Kara said, “General, we'll have to find out, won't we?” She had an evil-looking grin on her face....

Guru shook his head. “I was afraid of that.”

The clock kept turning, and soon, it was 1840, twenty minutes to Twelve-hour. “Major, that ceremony you want to have?” General Olds said.

Guru nodded. “Yes, sir.” He turned to his Exec. “Mark?”

“I'll get him. Chief Ross should be outside.” He left, then came back and gave a thumbs-up.

Ms. Wendt came up to the 335th CO. “Major, what's this about?”

“You might be interested in this. If so, your crew has three minutes to get their equipment,” said Guru.

Ms. Wendt went to her crew, and both Scott, her cameraman, and her sound man, ran out to get their equipment. When they returned, that was a signal to Goalie and Kara to get their own cameras set. When all was ready, General Olds rang the bar bell. “People! Won't be long until twelve-hour, but we've got time for a litle ceremony.” He turned to Guur. “I'll let Major Wiser of the 335th take over things from here. Major?”

Guru got up to the bar. “Thank you, General,” he said. “Now, this story is common knowledge in the Air Force, but for the benefit of our Marine and Navy brethren, our newbies, and our guests from the media,” He glanced in the direction of Ms.Wendt and her crew. “Back in 1966, a dog named Roscoe made the trip from Yokota in Japan to Korat in Thailand, riding with his master in an F-105. Two months after arriving in-country, Roscoe's master was shot down over North Vietnam and was MIA. The guys in the squadron took care of the dog, who was waiting for his master to return. They made him the squadron's mascot, and Roscoe became the mascot for the whole 388th Tactical Fighter Wing. Roscoe was made an honorary Colonel and had a Colonel's privilieges. Airmen were called to attention whenever Roscoe entered a room, he attended the wing commander's 0730 staff meeting, had a Club Card for the Officer's Club-there was a lot of hell raised over him going in, and the guys made sure nobody got in the dog's way. The base vet took care of him, the security guys were told not to shoot him-and when Roscoe got a Thai dog as a girlfriend, they were warned not to shoot her, too. Roscoe attended pre-strike briefings, and when he slept through the brief, it was usually an easy one. If he paid attention, it was a bear, and they lost people. And he had the wing commander's chair in the briefing room.” There were a few laughs at that, then Guru went on. “A few weeks prior to the 388th leaving Korat in '75, Roscoe died of a heart attack outside his favorite place, the Officer's Club. They gave him a military funeral with full honors, and laid him to rest right next to the Club. Before the wing left Korat, they erected a small plaque in his honor.

“Fast forward to today. When we were at Cannon, several of the guys were chasing nurses at the nearby MASH, and a nurse told them they had a mama Golden Lab and two puppies. The MASH was going to keep the mama dog and one pup, but needed a home for the other. So Don, Kerry, Hoser, Firefly? You guys brought the dog to me, and said 'We need a mascot.' Well, I said we needed to clear it with the CO, and we took Buddy to see Colonel Rivers. One look was all he needed to give the OK, and we've had Buddy ever since. Now, we need to properly honor Buddy, and give him his reward. XO, will you bring him in?”

Ellis nodded, and went to the entrance. Chief Ross came in, in full dress uniform, and had Buddy on a leash, with a dog coat similar to an officer's undress blues. They came to the bar, and at command, Buddy sat down. He seemed to know this was all for him.

“As of today, Buddy is now an honorary Captain in the Air Force, with all the privilieges of that rank. Chief? You and the other NCOs are taking good care of him, and just keep on doing what you're doing. When the 335th moves, he moves with us, and for certain, when this war is over, and it's time for people to go home and pick up their lives, someone's going to take Buddy home and give him a proper civilian life.” There was applause, then Guru said. “But from now on, he's one of us. He's one of the Chiefs of the 335th, and no one's going to either deny that, or take him away from us. IS THAT CLEAR?” Guru glared at Major Frank Carson, as if to say, just you try, and you'll be sorry.

“YES, SIR!” the 335th's officers said.

“All right! General, if you'll be so kind?” Guru asked General Olds.

“It's a pleasure, Major.” Olds said. Then both the General and the CO of the 335th pinned Captain's bars on the doggie jacket. Then after people got their drinks, there was a toast to the dog.

“Ten minutes to twelve-hour!” Doc Waters then called.

“Major,” Ms. Wendt said. “We're going to our truck. Won't take long to put a story together, and we'll send this to CBS first, then Sydney.”

“Thanks,” said Guru. “Whenever you want to start talking to Day One vets for your story, just say the word.”

The reporter grinned. “I'll take you up on that, and speaking of taking up, when am I getting my ride?”

“Hopefully in a few days,” Guru replied. “Unless you want to have an Early-Bird breakfast, then fly with Kerry Collins on his check ride?”

“With nothing to see at five-thirty in the morning?” Ms. Wendt asked. “No, thank you. I'll wait for you and the Wild Thing.”

“Fair enough,” Guru said. He nodded at Chief Ross. “Excuse me.” Guru went over to Ross. “Chief, you and the other senior NCOs keep taking good care of him. And find a MOPP suit if you can.”

“Sir, some outfit's making those for working dogs. Shouldn't be too hard to find one for Buddy.” Ross said. “Don't worry about him and the vet, sir. We're on it.”

“Good. Because someone will be taking him home when this is over, and Buddy deserves a nice civilian life.”

“We all do, sir, once we're in Mexico City,” said Ross.

“And we will,” Guru said. “Send somebody to pick him up after aircrew curfew at 2100.”

“Will do, sir.”

“And Chief? You have a good rest of the evening.”

“Thanks, sir.”

Colonel Brady came up to Guru after Ross left. “Major, nice little ceremony.”

“Thank you, sir,” Guru replied, just as Doc Waters rang the bell.

“Twelve-Hour now in effect!”

“Major,” Brady said. “Having a mascot around is a good morale booster. You just planted a few ideas in people's heads.”

Hearing that, Guru grinned. “Glad to set that kind of example, sir.”

“Good to hear. Now, General Olds and I are going to sit down with your Major Golen.” Brady said. “He's on his third war, I spent most of Vietnam in Hanoi, and well, we know General Olds. You have a good evening.”

Guru nodded. “Yes, sir.” He then went to his flight's table, and took a seat as Sweaty brought a plate of nachos. “Well, that's that.”

“It is,” Goalie said. “Now, what's our favorite snob going to do about it?” She shot a glance towards Frank Carson's table, where he was sitting with two ground officers from the Air Base Group.

“Hopefully, nothing,” Kara nodded.

Guru agreed. “Anything he sends the IG's Office is considered friviolous. So, any complaints get junked.” He then noticed Kara getting ready to go back to the Pool Table. “Kara? When those RAF guys arrive tomorrow? Let them get settled in that first night. Then you can fleece them.”

Kara had a grin on her face from ear to ear. “My pleasure. And after General Olds leaves tomorrow? My debt collections can pick up.”

“Try not to get into that with the RAF,” Guru advised.

“Their problem, Boss, if they ignore any advice.” She then went to the bar, got a glass of Seven-up, and went back to the pool table.

Seeing Guru wince, Sweaty said, “Boss, trying to avoid any, uh, 'international incidents'?”

“That is on my mind,” the CO said. “Remind me to warn the RAF about her.”

“Got you,” Goalie said. “And one other thing about our Brit cousins.”

“Oh?” Guru asked. It had been a long day.

“Remember: they speak Phantom, not Jaguar or Tornado. Which makes their fitting in a whole lot easier,” she said. And that, she knew, was a good thing.
“To be grateful for,” the CO agreed.

The evening went on until 2100, when Doc rang the bell again. “Aircrew curfew now in effect!” With that, those who were flying in the morning headed off to their respective units' officer country. For another day of combat beckoned. And the chance of becoming a statistic on the KIA, MIA, or POW lists was always there, every time they went wheels-up. Sleep was on the agenda, for it wouldn't be long until 0430 and aircrew wakeup.

RN7 02-20-2018 08:56 AM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77251)
SA-10s were in Mexico during the war-and near the end, the Monterey area was a no-go for many tac air for that reason. SA-10s were also in Occupied Canada and Alaska, and were captured there after the Soviet surrender in the Northern Theater on 14 Oct 89.

SA-12 never made it over. One battalion was due to come over for a combat trial in Texas, but....the ship carrying the missiles arrived in Cuba, but the ship with the TELs and radar was sunk.

That would explain that!!

I think you could probably take out an SA-10/12 launcher through bating it into switching on its radar and revealing its location by having an aircraft fly into its kill zone, and then hitting it with a saturating attack of HARM missiles or other ordinance from aircraft loitering outside its radar coverage. Still it would be hairy all the same, and you would expect some casualties if you attacked a battery of them.

rcaf_777 02-21-2018 01:41 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77254)
“but Prime Minster Mulroney of Canada and Britain's Prime Minister Thatcher, but also by the Soviets. Our White House Correspondent, Leslie Stahl, has a report.”

You make me wonder what would happen politically in Canada.

Leading up to this war you have Pierre Elliott Trudeau as Prime Minster until 1984. While he firmly kept Canada in NATO he was a personal friend of Fidel Castro (When Trudeau died Feidel actually left Cuba to attend) Trudeau was the first world leader to meet John Lennon and his wife Yoko Ono on their "tour for world peace". Trudeau most famous remark was "Just watch me" This was in response to CBC reporter Tim Ralfe who asked how far he would go in the suspension of civil liberties to maintain order during the October Crisis, Trudeau replied "Well, just watch me." Three days later, he invoked the War Measures Act.

John Turner was appointed(Not elected) Prime Minster when Trudeau retired after polls showed the Liberals faced certain defeat in the next election if he remained in office. While only in office from June to Sep 1984 he did oversea
a flurry of appointment such as senators, judges, and executives on various governmental and crown corporation boards. All of course loyal liberals.

Brian Mulroney comes to power in 1984 while he opposed us intervention in Nicaragua under Reagan he was close to administration. In march of 85 the two leaders had the "Shamrock Summit" where they sang when the two leaders sang "When Irish Eyes are Smiling."

I will stop the Canada history lesson now

Matt Wiser 02-26-2018 08:48 PM

Fellows, here's a fact file on the Des Moines class Heavy Cruisers and their war service: RDF Sourcebook users will recognize USS Salem (CA-139).

The Des Moines Class Heavy Cruisers in World War III

The Des Moines class were the last heavy cruisers built by any navy, were the only heavy cruisers in existence in 1985, and were the largest non-missile cruisers afloat. The class was originally planned as a 12-unit class, and only three were completed. The three units built were too late for World War II service, but saw extensive postwar service. Two were decommissioned in 1959-61, while the third unit was decommissioned in 1975 after extensive service in the Vietnam War. Two units were in Mobilization Category B, which meant available for reactivation within 180 days. The third unit had suffered an explosion in its No. 2 main turret in 1972, and had been stricken in 1978, but was retained in storage as a potential parts source for the other two in the event of their reactivation. A plan had been considered in 1981-2 to reactivate the two survivors as part of the initial defense buildup begun by the Reagan Administration, but had been turned down by Congress. However, once war began, orders were quickly issued to the Philadelphia Navy Yard to reactivate the two available ships.

U.S.S. Des Moines (CA-134): Laid down in 1945 and commissioned in 1948, she often served as a Fleet Flagship before being decommissioned in 1961. Placed in reserve at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, she was maintained as a mobilization asset available for reactivation within 180 days. The order to reactivate her was issued only three days after the outbreak of war in September, 1985. Recommissioned in April, 1986, the ship initially saw service escorting convoys from the Mediterranean to the East Coast, and in one famous incident, was covering Convoy AHN-30 (Alexandria/Haifa-Norfolk) when a Soviet convoy en route to Cuba was encountered, and escorts from both convoys engaged each other. The Soviet escorts were distracted by the American and British destroyers and frigates long enough for Des Moines to get into the Soviet convoy and sink five ships. She saw action supporting the Liberation of Iceland in 1987, and also supported the Kola Raid in company with her sister ship Salem, often getting in close to shore to engage Soviet defenses and formations at nearly point-blank range.

After the Kola Raid, Des Moines put into the Philadelphia Navy Yard for a brief refit. The 3-inch 50 AA guns were removed and two quad Mark-141 Harpoon launchers and two Super RBOC Chaff launchers being installed in place of the amidships guns. Two new lattice masts were installed to house new radars and ECM equipment, along with NTDS. The Phalanx system was also installed with two mounts taken from damaged ships, and CEC was installed in the former Flag spaces to control the Harpoons and the ECM equipment. In addition, the “Fem mods” (crew spaces for female officers and crew) prepared. The ship was ready for sea in January, 1988, and Des Moines resumed convoy duty.

Her next combat was in support of Operation GULF HAMMER in 1988, providing Naval Gunfire Support to Marine landings along the Texas coast, and in support of Army and Marine forces operating within range of her guns. Des Moines then saw service interdicting shipping between Cuban ports, Brownsville, and Mexico, and also provided fire support during the final reduction of the Brownsville Pocket. She then participated in several bombardments of targets in Cuba that were intended as preparatory to the planned invasion of Cuba, and was tasked to provide fire support for Marines landing at Tarara Beach, east of Havana, but Castro's acceptance of the Armistice rendered the invasion plan moot.

Though considered for deactivation in 1991, events in the Middle East and Africa reared their head, and Des Moines was retained in service indefinitely. Deployments to Yemen and off the Somali coast followed, escorting shipping threatened by local pirates, and on occasion, bombarding pirate strongholds with her 8-inch guns. In one incident in 1996, a group of Somali pirates at night mistook the cruiser for a tanker, and tried to board her. The pirates were swiftly dealt with, and their mother ship (a captured fishing boat) was destroyed with 5-inch gunfire. Des Moines made her home port in San Diego, switching places with her sister, Salem, in 2000. Her most recent combat duty was in the Baja War in 2010. She is still in service, and when retired, it is planned to donate her to either Seattle or San Francisco as a war memorial.

U.S.S. Salem (CA-139): Laid down in 1945 and commissioned in 1949, Salem served not only as a Fleet Flagship at times during her active service, but also played the German Pocket Battleship Graf Spee in a 1956 movie about the Battle of the River Plate. She was decommissioned in 1959, and maintained at the Philadelphia Navy Yard in Mobilization Category B alongside her sister ship Des Moines. She, too, was considered for reactivation in the early 1980s, but remained in mothballs until the outbreak of war, when she was reactivated in September, 1985. Receiving the same minor upgrade as her sister, Salem was recommissioned in May, 1986, and after working up with her sister ship, began duty as a convoy escort. She escorted convoys from the Mediterranean to the East Coast, before taking part in the Naval Gunfire Support Force for both the Liberation of Iceland and the Kola Raid. Salem was so close to shore that at one point, her 3-inch 50 AA guns were used against Soviet ground troops and light armor. After Kola, the ship received a refit identical to her sister, Des Moines.

Salem did not participate in Operation GULF HAMMER, as she was needed in the Pacific, and transited the Panama Canal to join the Pacific Fleet in January, 1988. She took part in several bombardment runs along the Alaska coast, and provided Naval Gunfire Support to the raid on the Kamchatka Peninsula, along with raider hunts in the North Pacific. Salem also took part in a raid on Itirup Island in the Kuriles, bombarding a minor Soviet naval base and a PVO airfield, with SEALS calling in the naval gunfire. She then participated in several bombardment missions along the Mexican Pacific Coast, before once again transiting the Canal and rejoining the Atlantic Fleet for the planned invasion of Cuba. After the Castro Regime's acceptance of the Armistice, Salem was sent back to the Pacific, for anti-piracy operations along the China Coast and in Indonesian waters.

Salem made several deployments to WestPac, with her Home Port at Pearl Harbor, before returning to the East Coast in 2000. She was involved in a number of anti-piracy operations, bombarding a number of pirate strongholds in her WestPac cruises. When she returned to the East Coast, Salem returned to deployments with the Sixth Fleet, with occasional service off of Somalia and Yemen. Salem did not see combat in the Cuban Intervention, or in the Baja War, but was at sea during the Fall of the Rump USSR, though she saw no action. She is still in service, and when she is retired in 2020, she will be donated to the city of Quincy, Massachusetts, as a war memorial, and close to her namesake city.

U.S.S. Newport News (CA-148): Laid down in 1945 and commissioned in 1949, she was the last heavy cruiser in commission anywhere when she was decommissioned in 1975. Serving as a fleet flagship, she saw service in the Sixth Fleet and during both the Cuban Missile Crisis and the 1965 Dominican Republic Crisis, then had three deployments to Vietnam between 1967 and 1972. An accidental explosion in her Number Two turret, resulting in the center gun being blown out, and nineteen men were killed and ten wounded. The damage was not repaired, and the turret was sealed off for the remainder of her service. Decommissioned in 1975, she saw no further service, and was used as a parts source for her two sister ships when they were reactivated in 1985. Newport News is still retained as a parts hulk, and is expected to be scrapped when the cruisers are retired. A request from the Mariner's Museum in Norfolk to retain parts of the ship, such as her bridge, as a memorial to the ship and crew is likely to be granted by the Navy.

Ship statistics:

Displacement: 17,000 tons standard, 21,500 full load

Length: 716.5 feet

Beam: 76 feet

Draft: 26 feet

Propulsion: Four GE steam turbines producing 120,000 Shaft Horsepower; 4 shafts.

Boilers: 4 Babcock and Wilcox at 600 psi each

Range: 10,500 Nautical Miles at 15 Knots

Top speed: 32 Knots

Crew: 1,800 (115 Officers and 1,685 Enlisted)

Armament (World War III):

9x 8-inch 55 Mark 16 guns in three triple turrets

12x 5-inch 38 DP Mark 32 guns in six twin turrets

12x 3-inch 50 AA Mark 27 in six twin mounts (removed Fall 1987)

8x Harpoon SSM launchers Mark 141 in four quad mounts (installed Fall 1987)

2x 20-mm Phalanx CIWS mounts (installed Fall 1987)

Several mounts for .50 caliber machine guns or Mark 19 Automatic Grenade Launchers

Helicopters: Pad only with no hangar. UH-1N or SH-2F embarked on occasion.

Matt Wiser 03-06-2018 07:49 PM

Fellows, while the next story arc is in work, are there any requests? I have some non-335th stories-including POW ones, one about how Marshal Akhromayev became Defense Minister, Day one from the 335th's POV, a postwar conflict involving the U.S. and Mexico over Baja California (occupied by the U.S. after the war and becoming the 51st State-Mexico wanted it back, starting a war that they lost), plus fact files on aircraft, armor, ships, plus fact files on U.S. small arms and heavy weapons. Let me know what you'd like to see.

mpipes 03-06-2018 09:13 PM

How about a B-52 strike from Carswell or Barksdale?
USAFR A-10s from Barksdale or New Orleans?

rcaf_777 03-07-2018 11:03 AM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77342)
Fellows, while the next story arc is in work, are there any requests? I have some non-335th stories-including POW ones, one about how Marshal Akhromayev became Defense Minister, Day one from the 335th's POV, a postwar conflict involving the U.S. and Mexico over Baja California (occupied by the U.S. after the war and becoming the 51st State-Mexico wanted it back, starting a war that they lost), plus fact files on aircraft, armor, ships, plus fact files on U.S. small arms and heavy weapons. Let me know what you'd like to see.

Whatever you post I will read Mr Wiser they are always a great read. I personally would love to see day one story form US Army Unit (Infantry or Armored) point of view, maybe something from the another resistance group starting at day one. I always love paratrooper opening from Red Dawn.

Many Thanks

Matt Wiser 03-13-2018 08:10 PM

Here's the M-1 Abrams tank family in World War III:

The M-1 Abrams family in World War III

First produced in 1979, after a lengthy gestation period dating from the failed MBT-70 program, the M-1 Abrams withstood journalistic and Congressional skepticism to emerge from the Third World War as one of the two top main battle tanks in the world (the Challenger being the other). Seeing service in all theaters, and with extensive postwar service, the M-1 family still serves the U.S. Army and Marine Corps, and also serves with several foreign customers. This work will cover the M-1 family that saw service in the war, and in postwar conflicts.

M-1: Initial production version produced 1979-83. Armed with a 105-mm L7 gun with 55 rounds, Thermal sight, laser rangefinder, Chobham Armor.

IPM1: Upgraded M1 with M-1A1 turret, thicker armor, turret bustle. Retained 105-mm gun.

M1A1: Produced beginning 1985, with Rheinmetall L44 120-mm gun produced under license at Waterlivet Arsenal, New York. Pressurized NBC system, improved armor. Combat debut limited in 1986 with its major debut at Wichita in 1987.

M1A1HA: Improved Chobham armor (including Depleted Uranium inserts),

M1A1HC: 2nd Generation Depleted Uranium inserts, digital engine controls. Primary USMC version.

M1A1AIM: Older units reconditioned to near zero-hour condition; digital engine controls, Blue Force Tracker, tank-infantry phone, improved thermal sight. Standard Abrams variant in National Guard and Reserve service.

M1A2: First “Digital battlefield” version with commander's independent thermal sight, Blue Force tracker added, 2nd generation DU armor inserts.

M1A2SEP: System Enhancement Package: Third Generation DU inserts added to armor, upgraded thermal sight and Blue Force Tracker. Standard U.S. Army version.

M1A3: Prototypes under development, initial trials FY 16. Lighter 120-mm gun, added road wheels, lighter track, current wiring replaced with fiber optics, improved armor.

M1AGDS: Air Defense Gun System with radar, Thermal Sights and laser rangefinder. Twin 35-mm cannon and 12 ADATS missiles for either anti-armor or antiaircraft use. Primary U.S. Army battlefield air defense system.

M1 Grizzly CEV: Combat Engineering Vehicle with multirole arm, dozer blade/mine plow, In U.S. Army service.

M104 Wolverine Heavy Assault Bridge: AVLB on M1 chassis.

M1 Assault Breacher Vehicle: Version with mine plow/blade, and MCLIC line charges for dealing with minefields. In U.S. Army and Marine service; exported to Australia

M1 ARV: Armored Recovery vehicle: planned replacement for M-88 ARV. In prototype status, with service trials set for FY 16.


U.S. Army: Combat in Texas and Arizona from the beginning of the war (M-1 and IPM1). M1A1 in wide use beginning Battle of Wichita 1987. M1A2 series primary U.S. Army MBT, M1A1 series still in ARNG and Reserve service, alongside remaining M-60A4-120 tanks.

U.S. Marine Corps: M1A1 saw limited use in USMC: first combat in the Kola raid. Replaced M-60 series after the war, though USMC M1A1s saw combat in liberation of Guam. M1A1HC primary USMC version.

Australia: Australian Army adopted the M1A1 in 1994.

Egypt: M1A1 supplied to Egyptian Army in 1990s. Production continues in Egypt today.

Kuwait: Kuwaiti Army supplied with M1A2 in 1997, after competition with Challenger and Leopard II.

Saudi Arabia: Saudi Army supplied with M1A2 in 1995, after competition between Leopard II and LeClerc.

Taiwan: ROC Army was the only wartime allied user: with M1 series tanks supplied to the ROC 1st Mechanized Division in the Southwest. ROC upgraded to M1A1 for duty on mainland in anti-warlord operations.

Matt Wiser 03-13-2018 08:14 PM

And the T-72:

The T-72 tank in World War III

The Soviet T-72 was one of the most widely used tanks in the Third World War, being built not only in the Soviet Union, but under license in both Poland and Czechoslovakia. Intended to replace the T-54/55 series as the workhorse of the Soviet armor force, as the “low” in the High-Low mix, with the T-64 and then the T-80 as the “High” end, the T-72 saw action in all theaters, and on both sides, with U.S., British, and Canadian forces making use of captured specimens. The tank naturally saw extensive service during the Second Russian Civil War, in conflicts in the Caucasus and Central Asia, and in the fall of the Rump USSR. This work will cover those versions of the T-72 that saw service during the war.

T-72 “Ural” Initial production version first seen in 1973. 125-mm D-81TM gun, coincidence rangefinder.

T-72K: Command version of T-72. Versions produced for company, battalion, and regimental commanders. Radio fit depended on specific commander's version.

T-72 Export: Export version sold to Iraq and Syria, also license-built in Poland.

T-72 Ural-M: Modernized version of T-72. New 2A46 125-mm gun, coincidence rangefinder removed and replaced with laser rangefinder, and smoke grenade launchers. .

T-72A: Further modernization of “Ural.” 2A46 gun, laser rangefinder, provision for reactive armor as available (though many in North America never had it installed), additional composite armor added to turret top and front-given the nickname of “Dolly Parton” by U.S. Army tankers.

T-72AK: Command versions of T-72A.

T-72M: Downgraded export version of T-72A. Produced under license in both Poland and Czechoslovakia. Main “monkey model” meant for wartime production in Soviet factories converted to manufacturing tanks.

T-72MK: Command version of T-72M.

T-72M1: Export version with thicker armor than T-72M.

T-72B: Most advanced T-72 version to see combat in North America. Much improved version over T-72A. 1A-40 fire control system, thicker armor with additional composite armor on turret front and top; codenamed “Super Dolly Parton” by U.S. Army; 2A46M main gun, AT-11 Sniper missile capability, and new engine.

BREM-1: Armored Recovery Vehicle based on T-72 chassis.

IMR-2: Combat Engineer Vehicle with telescoping crane, dozer blade, and mine-clearing system.

MTU-72: Bridgelayer based on T-72 Chassis.


Soviet Army: Standard tank used in Soviet Motor-Rifle Divisions and independent MR Brigades or Regiments. Also used in Cat 2 Tank Divisions.

Cuban Army: Main tank used by Cuban Motor-Rifle Divisions and by Independent Tank Brigades. Many of which had to revert to T-62s due to war losses.

East German Army: Standard MBT in first-line Panzer and Panzergrenadier divisions. Encountered both in North America and in the campaign in East Germany in 1989.

Czech Army: Standard MBT of Czech Tank divisions and in tank regiment of MR divisons. Encountered in both North America and Eastern Europe.

Polish Army: Used in first-line Tank and MR Divisions. Also seen in North America and in Europe.

Libyan Army: Libyan T-72s encountered in Colorado during reduction of Pueblo Pocket, 1987, and by ROK Expeditionary Force in Texas, 1988.

Captured Vehicles:

Several captured T-72s of varying types were captured by both U.S and British forces, and sent to various centers for evaluation in both the U.S and Britain. A number were captured by guerillas in Arkansas and Oklahoma in 1986-7 and saw combat during the liberation of both states during Operation PRAIRIE FIRE. The 83rd Mechanized Infantry Division (the “Rag-Tag Circus” of WW II fame) captured enough T-72s to form at least one battalion entirely equipped with the vehicle, and tried to ensure that enemy supply and parts depots in their line of advance were not attacked by artillery or air strikes. Many of the division's T-72s were manned by female soldiers due to their small stature and being able to fit more comfortably inside the tank than many male soldiers. Canadian and British forces using captured T-72s followed suit. Due to the unpredictability of acquiring 125-mm ammunition during the war, samples of captured 125-mm rounds were provided to Egypt, where a production line for 125-mm HE-FRAG and HEAT rounds was set up. Also, 125-mm SABOT rounds were obtained via Yugoslavia, where the M-84 license-built version was being built for the Yugoslav Army.

Matt Wiser 03-15-2018 10:05 PM

The A-4 Skyhawk in the Third World War:

A-4 Skyhawks in World War III

The McDonnell-Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, which had borne the brunt of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps' light attack war in Southeast Asia, had a distinguished career in the Third World War. Still in USMC active and reserve service at the outbreak of war, the Skyhawk saw extensive service with the USMC, and also the USAF, which acquired a number of Skyhawks to rebuild former ANG A-7 squadrons that had suffered extensive combat losses. The Skyhawk also saw war service with the RAN, RNZAF, Malaysia, and the Republic of Singapore AF (the latter two on anti-piracy operations). This work will only cover those Skyhawks that saw combat during the war.

A-4E: Major upgrade of C version, with uprated J-52 engine, strengthened airframe with two extra weapons pylons with a total of five, TACAN, Doppler navigation radar, LABS, radar altimeter, and toss-bombing computer.

A-4F: Upgraded E with avionics hump and more powerful J-52 engine. Some used by USN off of Essex-class carriers in lieu of A-7s.

A-4G: F version for RAN, without avionics hump.

A-4K: RNZAF version of F with avionics hump.

A-4L: Upgrade of C with avionics hump,though with J-65 engine and only three weapons pylons. Reactivated from desert storage and used by USMC.

A-4M: Definite USMC version, with ARBS with TV and laser spot tracker. Production restarted at former NAA (Rockwell International) Downey, CA plant during the war to fill attrition and for USAF.

A-4PTM: Modified A-4C and L with most of the features of the M. For Malaysian Air Force. (PTM stands for Peculiar to Malaysia)

A-4S: 50 Bs remanufactured for Republic of Singapore AF; later upgraded again to A-4SU standard.

A-4S-1: 50 Cs remanufactured for Singapore

TA-4G: Training version of A-4G for RAN

TA-4J: Two-seat training version used throughout the war by USN Training Command, and by Navy Composite Squadrons in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guantanamo for local defense.

TA-4K: Training version of A-4K for RNZAF

TA-4PTM: Training version of A-4PTM

TA-4S: Training version of A-4S.

OA-4M: Modified TA-4Fs used by USMC for Forward Air Control duties.

Matt Wiser 03-15-2018 10:07 PM

And "my" mount: the F-4 Phantom:

F-4 Phantom Variants of the Third World War:

The McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom, though largely superseded in USAF service by the F-15 Eagle in the air superiority role, proved to be an able and worthy fighter in the Third World War, in the fighter, reconnaissance, and “Wild Weasel” variants. Though out of production at the beginning of the war, Mitsubishi in Japan reopened the production line, and subcontractors in the U.S were able to produce spare parts for the aircraft, as were foreign suppliers such as IAI in Israel.

A list of Phantom variants and users follows:

F-4B: Out of USN/MC service at the beginning of the war. Survivors converted to F-4N versions. USMC Reserve squadrons still operated the aircraft at war's outbreak. Remained in USMC service throughout the war, until replacement by the F/A-18A Hornet.

F-4C: Original USAF version. Out of front-line USAF service, but in ANG service in the fighter and fighter-interceptor roles. Heavy wartime attrition resulted in losses replaced by either new-build E models from Japan, or by the Northrop F-20A Tigershark.

F-4D: Improved C version. Still in active USAF service, as well as ANG and AFRES. Wartime attrition replaced by E models from Japan, or by F-20, though some did convert to F-15C postwar. Also used by ROK AF (replaced by F-15K)

F-4E: Ultimate USAF fighter version, with internal M-61A1 Vulcan cannon. Regular AF and ANG service, with attrition replacement via the Japanese production line. USAF versions from Japan often delivered without bombing computer or air-to-ground weapons capability, to satisfy Japanese export law, but such features installed at USAF Depot at McClellan AFB prior to delivery to USAF squadrons.
A number of E models also saw RAF service in North America during the war. JMSDF operated F-4EJ for air defense of Japan. ROK AF operated Es for Air Defense during the war, and during the fall of North Korea in 2010. Turkish AF also operated Es for air defense during “armed neutrality” period, as did the Greek AF.

F-4F: Luftwaffe version of E, originally delivered without Sparrow missile capability. Saw combat during GDR campaign in 1989.

F-4G: “Wild Weasel” SEAD variant. Fitted for and carried Shrike, Standard-ARM, and HARM missiles. Active USAF only during the war, ANG service (Idaho ANG and Nevada ANG) postwar. Attrition replaced via Japan, with SEAD equipment installed at Hill Aerospace Depot at Hill AFB, UT, prior to delivery.

F-4J: USN version from 1968 onward. Upgraded to F-4S configuration. F-4J (UK) in RAF service during the war.

F-4N: Upgraded F-4B. In service with four USN squadrons (VF-21, VF-154, VF-151, VF-161) at war's outbreak; remainder in storage. Served throughout the war, from both carriers and land bases. Replaced by F-14 in all four squadrons postwar.

F-4S: Upgraded F-4J. In USN Reserve, USMC active, and USMC Reserve service at outbreak of war. Replaced during and after the war by F/A-18 in USN and USMC.

Phantom FGR.2: Main RAF variant, used in UK Air Defense, until replaced by Tornado F.3.

RF-4B: USMC Reconnaissance version, used in VMFP-3 throughout the war. Replaced in USMC service by RF-18D.

RF-4C: USAF Reconnaissance version; in USAF and ANG service at beginning of the war. Attrition replacement via Mitsubishi in Japan. Replaced postwar by RF-16C. Export version RF-4E.

WW III Operators:





Luftwaffe (1989 only)



Greek AF

Turkish AF .

Three major users of the F-4 did not officially take part in wartime combat operations: Both Israel and Egypt were “non-belligerents”, that is, neutrals favoring the U.S. Both IAF and EAF Phantoms flew air sovereignty missions to guard their airspace. Iranian Phantoms continued to fly combat missions against Iraq until the Iran-Iraq War petered out in 1986.

rcaf_777 03-19-2018 11:02 AM

Just wondering the status of the West German Leopard Tanks. (I and II) many NATO countries had them in service during the cold war. I personally don't see them in service with Canada for long during the war if I remember right Canada had about 114 Leopard in service, about 88 with front line units.

I am thinking that most the Canadian Military would have either US or UK equipment come the end of war maybe some AVGP(LAV) too.

Just thinking out loud I guess

Matt Wiser 03-19-2018 08:15 PM

Canada went with the Challenger, since the British were there on the Northern Front.

Matt Wiser 03-24-2018 09:34 PM

Any more comments on the fact files, folks?

Matt Wiser 03-31-2018 08:01 PM

Those who have run the Satellite Down module will recognize this class of ship, if not the lead unit...

The Virginia Class Cruisers in World War III

The Virginia class guided-missile cruisers were the largest class of nuclear surface combatants built for the U.S. Navy, until the postwar Puget Sound class strike cruisers. At the outbreak of war, they were the most capable nuclear cruisers in the U.S. Navy, primarily being employed as escorts for carrier battle groups. Planned as a five-ship class, only four were built, while the fifth, which was hoped to be equipped with AEGIS, was never funded.

The ships had an active war, escorting carrier battle groups, protecting their charges from air and submarine attack, and all four survived the war.

U.S.S. Virginia (CGN-38): Commissioned in 1976, she was active in the Atlantic Fleet at the beginning of the war, she had escorted the Eisenhower battle group on its last peacetime deployment. She remained with Eisenhower throughout the war, seeing combat during raids against Soviet-occupied Iceland, the liberation of Iceland, the Kola Raid, and operations in the Gulf of Mexico (GULF HAMMER and the reduction of the Brownsville Pocket). A brief yard period in 1986 had the “Fem Mods” (accommodations for female officers and crew) added. Virginia participated in the sinkings of three Soviet submarines: the Victor-I class SSN K-147 off Norfolk on 27 November 1985, the November-class SSN K-60 during the Liberation of Iceland in May, 1987, and the Tango-class SS B-319 on 8 June 1989, during the transit from Norfolk to the Gulf of Mexico. Virginia, during Gulf of Mexico operations, also took SAM shots at Soviet aircraft engaged in the airlift to Texas and Mexico, scoring several kills in the process. She was overhauled and refueled from 1994-1997, and after routine deployments with both the Sixth Fleet and the Fourth Fleet in the Caribbean, Virginia was decommissioned and stricken in 2014, and has been sold for scrap after defueling and all nuclear components removed.

U.S.S. Texas (CGN-39): Commissioned in 1977, she was active in the Pacific Fleet at the outbreak of war, as part of the Carl Vinson Battle Group. The group had returned from a WestPac deployment when war began, and as soon as war began, deployed to protect the California coast, and conducted carrier air strikes against targets in Baja California. Later, Texas participated in operations against Soviet convoys on the Alaska run, and in strikes against occupied Alaska and the Kamchatka Peninsula, protecting the carrier from Soviet air, submarine, and missile attack on several occasions. A brief yard period at San Diego followed, with the “Fem Mods” being added. Later, as part of the Vinson group, Texas also participated in the final reduction of the Soviet base at Cam Ranh Bay, before taking part in further raids against Kamchatka, the Kuriles, and Alaska, as well as covering the movement of forces into Alaska after the Soviet surrender in the Northern Theater in October, 1989. During the war, she sank three Soviet submarines: an unknown Whiskey-class SS on 24 March, 1986, the Juliett-class SSG K-63 during the Cam Ranh Bay strike, and the Charlie-I class SSGN K-25 on 6 October, 1989. (This was the last Soviet submarine sunk by USN surface vessels in the war) Overhauled and refueled in 1995-98, Texas resumed WestPac and Indian Ocean deployments with the Abraham Lincoln carrier group, before being decommissioned and stricken in 2015. She will be scrapped after defueling and all nuclear components have been removed.

U.S.S. Mississippi (CGN-40): Commissioned in 1978, she was part of the Nimitz carrier battle group in the Mediterranean when the war began, and she, along with the other escorts, was able to successfully defend the carrier against a “First Salvo” attack by the Soviet Mediterranean Squadron. The battle group then attacked the Soviet squadron, sinking several ships, before being diverted to attack targets in Libya, after the Soviet/Libyan occupation of Gibraltar. Mississippi then participated, with the battle group, in operations in the Eastern Atlantic and Mediterranean for much of 1986-7, taking part in the Liberation of Gibraltar and strikes against Libya and Soviet naval facilities in Syria. She also participated in strikes against both Cuba and Occupied Iceland, before the Liberation of Iceland and the Kola Raid, serving as AAW “Gatekeeper” to Nimitz. After Kola, a brief yard period followed, where she received the “Fem Mods” for female officers and crew. Mississippi then served with the carrier during operations against Cuba, before the Nimitz shifted to the Pacific Fleet, but she remained in the Atlantic Fleet. During her time with the Nimitz group, she sank three Soviet submarines: the Juliett class SSG K-67 on 6 September 1985, the Echo-II SSGN K-22 during the Iceland campaign, and the Foxtrot-class SS B-2 on 7 August 1987. She next provided AAW cover for the amphibious force in Operation GULF HAMMER, and again during the reduction of the Brownsville Pocket. After supporting the Cuba Blockade, she was part of the Theodore Roosevelt battle group, before her nuclear refueling and overhaul from 1997-2000.

After her yard period, Mississippi became part of the America battle group, seeing combat in the Cuba intervention and in the Baja War, supporting operations against the Mexican Gulf Coast. During the fall of the Rump USSR, the America battle group went to sea after DEFCON-3 was called, but saw no action. Mississippi is expected to decommission in FY 2017, and then she will be defueled, have her nuclear components removed, and then scrapped.

USS Arkansas (CGN-41): Commissioned in 1980, she was active in the Pacific Fleet as part of the Carl Vinson battle group. She participated in all of the Battle Group's actions in the initial part of the war, before being shifted to the Enterprise Battle Group in 1987, and the “Fem Mods” added during a brief yard period in San Diego. Arkansas participated in operations against Alaska, Kamchatka, and the Kuriles, and also covered the movement into Alaska after the Soviet surrender in October, 1989. The Enterprise group then participated in Operation FORAGER II, the Liberation of Guam from North Korean occupation in November-December, 1989. After the war, she resumed normal deployments to WestPac and the Indian Ocean, with occasional anti-piracy operations in both Indonesian and Chinese waters. During the war, she participated in the sinking of two Soviet submarines: the November-class K-11, on 5 June 1987, during a raid on Alaska, and the Echo-I class SSN K-259 during the Kamchatka Raid. Arkansas also fired Tomahawks in that operation, and during FORAGER-II, sank an unidentified North Korean Romeo-class SS.

After her refueling and overhaul from 1998-2001, she returned to the Pacific Fleet, joining the Nimitz Battle Group. Arkansas participated in the Baja War in 2010, supporting the blockade of Mexico's Pacific Coast, and firing Tomahawk Cruise Missiles against targets in Mexico. The battle group put to sea during the fall of the Rump USSR, but saw no action. Arkansas is expected to decommission in FY 2018. She will be defueled, have all nuclear components removed, and then scrapped.

Class statistics:

Displacement: 11,300 full load

Length: 585 feet

Beam: 63 feet

Draft: 29.5 feet

Propulsion: 2 steam turbines driving two shafts for 60,000 shp

Reactors: 2 GE D2G Pressurized Water Reactors

Speed: 30+ knots


CGN-38: 565 (45 Officers and 520 Enlisted)

CGN-39: 572 (39 Officers and 533 Enlisted)

CGN-40: 613 34 Officers and 579 Enlisted)

CGN-41: 562 (39 Officers and 523 Enlisted)


2 twin Mk 26 launchers for Standard-MR SAM

2 quad Mk 141 Harpoon SSM launchers

2 quad ABL launchers for Tomahawk SSM/TLAM


2 single 5-inch 54 Mk 45 guns

2 20-mm Phalanx CIWS

Several pintle mounts for .50 caliber machine guns or Mk 19 AGL

ASW Weapons:

ASROC fired from forward Mk 26 launcher

2 triple Mk 32 torpedo tubes for Mk 46 torpedoes


SPS-40B air search

SPS-48A 3-D search in GGN-38, 39, SPS-48C in CGN-40, 41

SPS-55 surface search

Sonar: SQS-53A bow-mounted

Helicopter: VERTREP area only: helicopter hangar with elevator originally provided. Issues with elevators and keeping the hangar watertight resulted in the hangar being sealed, and Tomahawk ABLs installed.


1 SWG-2 Tomahawk FCS

1 Mk 13 Weapon-direction system (replaced by Mk 14 WDS)

1 Mk 86 GFCS with SPG-60 and SPQ-9A radars

1 Mk 74 Missile FCS

1 MK 116 ASW FCS

2 SPG-51D radars


SLQ-25 Nixie

SLQ-32 (V)3 EW

Matt Wiser 04-13-2018 09:39 PM

Any comments, thoughts, etc, fellows?

madmikechoi 04-16-2018 04:38 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77879)
Any comments, thoughts, etc, fellows?

Semi-pertinent one WRT to your M1 family write up.

I don't think Uncle Sugar would have dropped the dime for a M1 based heavy recovery vehicle- not when the 88A2 was significantly cheaper. Sometimes a 80% solution that can be delivered sooner and cheaper will win a contract. Interestingly enough, Teledyne Continental have cranked out 1500 hp version of the AVDS 1790 and that's fairly impressive with an air cooled V12 (although power going to the crank's gonna be a lot less since being air cooled you need a lot of power to run those cooling fans and those fans generally have to sit on top of the block). A good fit for the 88 let alone the M60 series which Uncle Sugar would need to retain because at some point numbers count; the US may have enough tanks for a Barbarossa or even two Kursk but what if we need to invade the Soviet hinterland twice and if we need to fight three or four epic battles and/or campaigns?

The Assault Breacher came about b/c of Big Army's failure of the Grizzly. Admittedly, a bucket arm would be pretty damn useful in reducing/neutralizing embankments/trenches and razor wire obstacles, etc. Still an argument can be made that combat engineers need both- a platform to launch line charges under armor and follow on to both plow through and wreck physical obstacles w/ the Garden Trowel of Doom (tm).

Third, building an ADA unit on a tank means one less tank. All things being equal- building tanks generally takes more resources than building an IFV/APC and there was already the LOS-F(H) ADATS (aka the original Bradley Linebacker). In fact a Twilight 2Kesque would have been a Bradley ADATS and a Bradley Blazer w/ two quad Stinger pods plus the GAU-12 w/ wide
FOV thermal, laser rangefinder/designator, and video/optical automatic tracking/lead; would have answered the ADA mantra of 3MI- mass, mix, mobility and integration and probably would have relegated the fiber optic FOG-M to either field arty or maneuver forces where it belonged.

I don't think anybody knows what a M1A3 would have been or will be since tank service lives tends to be extended w/ the new technologies driving doctrine or vice versa.

madmikechoi 04-16-2018 07:33 PM

And by failure, I mean failure to procure- either convincing the powers that be to listen that "union" of the army- believe or not every organization has a group of folks who advocate one pet project or the other b/c it benefits them either as individuals or as a group or both- the Wolverine bridge (the one with the Leguan Class 60-70 scissor bridge) or the Grizzly CEV. The ongoing War on Terror despite trying to wage it on the cheap has meant Big Army has had to axe numerous programs to support what amounts to a large brigade/small division sized force in Afghanistan and a kinda sorta corps sized force in Iraq until the Iraqis wouldn't give DC a SoFA agreement and now the US is sorta kinda back in Iraq if only because of ISIL; the fact that Arab armies for the most part are pretty much hopeless at all military aspects doesn't help. Usually most nations have at least a talent in one or more aspects at the art of war.

Matt Wiser 04-16-2018 09:02 PM

Consider that in the Red Dawn timeline that M-1 chassis were being produced faster than turrets. With the failure of the M-247 (AKA SGT York), the Army needed a replacement for the M-163 Vulcan system right away. The production license for the Gepard turret was covertly acquired despite the neutralist government (Green-dominated) in West Germany, and the Gepard turrets fitted to the M-1 hull.

During the war, the Tunguska system was encountered on a number of occasions, and turned out to be very lethal. The Army wanted a similar system, but had to wait until after the war to get one. Hence the M-105 ADGS. M-1 style turret with two 35-mm guns and 12 ADATS missiles.

madmikechoi 04-17-2018 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77907)
Consider that in the Red Dawn timeline that M-1 chassis were being produced faster than turrets. With the failure of the M-247 (AKA SGT York), the Army needed a replacement for the M-163 Vulcan system right away. The production license for the Gepard turret was covertly acquired despite the neutralist government (Green-dominated) in West Germany, and the Gepard turrets fitted to the M-1 hull.

During the war, the Tunguska system was encountered on a number of occasions, and turned out to be very lethal. The Army wanted a similar system, but had to wait until after the war to get one. Hence the M-105 ADGS. M-1 style turret with two 35-mm guns and 12 ADATS missiles.

The problem with the mounting a Gepard turret on a M1 chassis is the fact the Leo's turret ring- at least from what I've been able to gather is 1980mm or a hair under 78 inches wheres the M1 series and M60s- 2159 or 85 inches. Supposedly the Leo 2's turret ring diameter is the same as its predecessor but don't quote me. That being said unless you start machining a fairly expensive adapter smaller turrets aren't going to fit on larger ring. IOW it would be fundamentally cheaper to develop a new turret with a similar armament setup and radar suite in that case.

Second, is one of the reason the DIVADS got the axe was besides dirty pool from the Left there was no way that any gun system at that time would reach out 6 km at slant ranges- at least not accurately and generally not with the self destruct of the fuzes go off. The Oerlikon KDAs and even the new revolver 35s are still 3500-4000m platforms even w/ the fancy new prefrag rounds and at the time 40mm L70 was the smallest proj that could use a proximity fuze (nowadays you can sort of cheat w/ in bore fuze setting and with a laser rangefinder to initiate detonation w/o putting what amounts to a radio antenna in the pointy end. Again, as a branch forgot it's own doctrine of mix- guns can do certain things pretty good, missiles can do some things pretty good, there is some overlap but not all so you need both.

Tunguska is a twofer. Yes, they wanted to replace the ZSU but at the time the Strela-10/SA-13 was still fairly new although I'm sure PVO SV might have overly worried about US jamming capabilities at the time against their second gen IR seekers. So it was a very expensive system that tried to address current liabilities and add capabilities to hedge future bets IMNSHO.

Finally, remember there were some really fairly cheap or soon to be cheap upgrades that could have been thrown on the M163 and the M48 Chap. Chaparral could have had the Chapfire system which included the ability to use the M299 quad Hellfire launcher, quad Stinger pods, and turret sighting systems of the Stinger Avenger. The Vulcan PIVADS could have lot the range only radar in favor of a Stinger pod, a laser rangefinder, and optics setup similar to the the M56 TOW nose found on the AH-1P/E/F (aka the AH-1S family).

If we go by accelerated development as usually found in war- we could expect the Alpha and Bravo model -92s to replaced almost from the getgo in 1985/86 w/ the Charlies aka Stinger RMP with introduction of the RMP Block 1 by the end of the war. A post war notional RMP Block 2 with an Igla like aerospike, an imaging IR seeker along w/ a laser proximity fuze would be ready for the long war after WWIII b/c there's now way any US administration would allow Mexico or the rest of Latin America to be a threat and by definition it would the annexation of a good deal if not all of Northern Mexico combined with a long counterinsurgency that would no doubt be bloody (Mexicans for all their faults are a fairly patriotic bunch and having lost half their country to the El Norte in 1848 they will not nor cannot abide losing another third even if they threw in their lot with a Red Army that lost)

Matt Wiser 04-18-2018 09:48 PM

M-247 was a failure, period. It should be pointed out that Gepard turrets on the M-48 chassis were one of the contenders in the competition, but NIH kicked in,...

In the RD timeline, the Army wants an off-the shelf system NOW, Gepard on modified M-1 hulls met that requirement, as they need a system to keep up with the M-1/M-2 team. (another problem of SGT York: it couldn't keep up with the tanks it was supposed to protect) The M-105 ADGS is viewed by the Army as a logical successor to the M-1 Gepard.

Stinger RMP is fielded in 1987 TTL. Stinger-POST is the main version used from 1985 on, but RMP supplants it.

Matt Wiser 04-21-2018 08:31 PM

For the Navy fans, whether T2K or Red Dawn: the Forrest Sherman class destroyers:

The Forrest Sherman Class Destroyers in World War III

The Forrest Sherman class destroyers were the first large class of post-World War II destroyers built for the U.S. Navy. Originally numbering eighteen ships, four were converted to guided missile destroyers with the Tartar SAM replacing the aft 5-inch gun mounts (treated separately), while eight were given ASW modifications, with an ASROC launcher replacing the number two 5-inch turret and having an SQS-35 Variable-depth Sonar installed. Except for the Edson (DD-946), serving as a Naval Reserve Force/OCS training ship at Newport, RI, all were in mothballs in 1985, with three having already been stricken. Two were laid up at Bremerton Navy Yard in Washington State, one at Pearl Harbor, while the remainder were laid up on the East Coast. Within days of the outbreak of war in 1985, orders were issued to reactivate the ships. All eleven ships that were reactivated saw war service, with several becoming war losses. Some of the surviving ships are preserved as war memorials.

USS Forrest Sherman (DD-931): The lead ship of the class, commissioned in 1955 and decommissioned in 1982, she never received the ASW modifications. Laid up at Philadelphia Navy Yard, she was reactivated beginning in September, 1985. Recommissioned in 1986, she mainly served as a convoy escort along the East Coast for much of the war, but accompanied the cruisers Salem and Des Moines for both the Liberation of Iceland and the Kola Raid in the fire-support role. She subsequently served in Operation GULF HAMMER, the Cuba Blockade, and the reduction of the Brownsville Pocket, escorting the cruiser Des Moines. Forrest Sherman also escorted the battleships, escorting Iowa, New Jersey, and North Carolina on occasion, and participated in several bombardment missions along the Cuban coast in preparation for the planned invasion. She served for several years in the Sixth Fleet, frequently on anti-piracy operations off Somalia and Yemen, where her gun power was valued. Decommissioned in 2000, she was moored at Wilmington, Delaware, as a war memorial.

USS Davis (DD-937): Commissioned in 1957, decommissioned in 1982, and laid up at Philadelphia Navy Yard, she was one of the ships that received the ASW modification package. Reactivated in October, 1985, she was recommissioned in 1986 and assigned to the Atlantic Fleet. With her ASW suite, she was used mainly as a convoy escort, escorting not only Transatlantic Convoys, but Convoys along the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts. She sank a Soviet Foxtrot-class submarine while on convoy duty north of Bermuda, but she was sunk 20 miles NNE of Cape Hatteras on 12 January 1987 by the Soviet Charlie-I class submarine K-25 (two SS-N-7 “Starbright” SSMs), with 226 fatalities out of a crew of 309.

USS Manley (DD-940): Commissioned in 1957 and decommissioned in 1982, she, too, received the ASW mission package. Reactivated in October, 1985 and recommissioned in 1986, like her sister Davis, she mainly served as an ASW escort. Manley escorted numerous convoys, and when not on Convoy Duty, she provided ASW cover to destroyers on the Cuba blockade line in 1988-9. Manley also participated in several bombardment missions with other destroyers, After the Castro regime accepted the Armistice, Manley then made a number of deployments with the Sixth Fleet, before being decommissioned in 1999. She was stricken in 2006 and sunk as a target in 2009.

USS Dupont (DD-941): Commissioned in 1957 and decommissioned in 1983, she, too,was laid up at Philadelphia. Reactivated in September, 1985 and recommissioned in May, 1986, Dupont was one of the ASW modified ships. With her ASW package, she was used on convoy duty, though she also escorted the battleship North Carolina on her Mediterranean deployment, sinking a Libyan Foxtrot-class submarine north of Tripoli with ASROC. Returning to convoy duty, Dupont escorted both coastal and transatlantic convoys, sharing a kill of a November-class SSN with a P-3 Orion 220 miles East of Bermuda on 12 December, 1986. However, she was sunk on 22 July 1987, while escorting a Norfolk-Alexandria/Haifa convoy 400 miles west of Gibraltar by the Soviet Sierra-class SSN K-236. Of her crew of 309, 85 were lost.

USS Bigelow (DD-942): Commissioned in 1957 and decommissioned in 1982, she was laid up at Philadelphia. Reactivated in 1985 and recommissioned in May, 1986, Bigelow was one of the unmodified all-gun units of the class. Though limited in her ASW capabilities, she was useful in the naval gunfire support role, participating in Libya, Gibraltar, Iceland and Kola operations, She escorted the cruiser Des Moines for Iceland and Kola, and like the cruiser, got in very close to shore to provide close-in fire support to Marines and SEALs on shore. Bigelow also formed part of the NGFS force for Operation GULF HAMMER, before serving on the Cuba Patrol. Bigelow took part in several bombardments of Cuba, as well as sinking a Cuban coastal freighter and an escorting patrol boat. She, too, was tapped for fire-support duties in the planned invasion. After Castro's acceptance of the Armistice, Bigelow transferred to the Pacific Fleet, where she participated in several deployments to Far East and Indonesian waters, escorting convoys and taking part in several anti-piracy operations. She was transferred to the Naval Reserve Force in 1998 and decommissioned in 2003, before being sunk as a target in an exercise off Hawaii in 2008.

USS Blandy (DD-943): Commissioned in 1957 and decommissioned in 1982, she was laid up in Philadelphia, before being reactivated in September, 1985. Recommissioned in May, 1986, she was one of the ASW optimized ships, and was assigned to convoy duty. She escorted numerous convoys between East Coast Ports and the Mediterranean, and Blandy was among the ships escorting Convoy A/HN-30 when the convoy came across a Soviet convoy bound for Cuba. She engaged and sank a Koltin-class destroyer with her 5-inch guns, before sinking two freighters (one Soviet, one Polish) with her guns. Blandy was involved with convoy duty right up to the end of the war, and sank the Juliett-class SSG K-78 on 11 November, 1987 off of Delaware Bay. After the war, she made regular deployments to the Caribbean and the Sixth Fleet, before being decommissioned in 1999. She was sold for scrap in 2007.

USS Mullinix (DD-944): Commissioned in 1958 and decommissioned in 1983, she was laid up at Philadelphia. Reactivated in October, 1985 and recommissioned in April, 1986, she was one of the all-gun destroyers. Mullinix accompanied her sister Bigelow on the gun line for Libya, Gibraltar, Iceland, but at Kola, she was engaged by a Soviet Nanchuka-class missile corvette and hit by a single SS-N-9 SSM in the bow. The missile explosion set off the forward 5-inch magazine in a sympathetic detonation, which destroyed the forward part of the ship. The ship had to be abandoned, and after the survivors were rescued, the hulk was sunk by 5-inch gunfire from the cruiser Salem. Of 326 crew, there were 185 fatalities.

USS Edson (DD-946): Commissioned in 1958, she was the only active unit of the class at the beginning of the war, being used as an NRF/OCS training ship, home-ported at Newport, RI. One of the all-gun destroyers, she was active in local patrols from Newport from the outbreak of war until June, 1986, when she joined the North Carolina Surface Group. She was sunk by the Soviet Victor-II class submarine K-488 (Type 65 wake-homing torpedo) on 15 September, 1986, during an attack on a Soviet Convoy while escorting the battleship North Carolina, with the loss of 195 crew.

USS Morton (DD-948) Commissioned in 1959 and decommissioned in 1982, she was moored at Bremerton Navy Yard in Washington. One of the ASW modified ships, she was reactivated in September, 1985 and recommissioned in April, 1986, she mainly served as a convoy escort for the Trans-Pacific and Australia runs, She engaged Soviet submarines on three occasions, sinking the Juliett-class SSG K-63 on 17 December 1986 425 miles north of Midway Island, the Echo-II class SSGN K-23 on 4 July 1987, 800 miles SSW of San Francisco, and the Echo-I class SSN K-122 375 miles SSW of Pearl Harbor on 23 March, 1988. Morton also provided ASW escort to the Kamchatka Raid, escorting the cruiser Salem as a close-in ASW escort, while also adding her 5-inch guns to those of the NGFS force bombarding Petropavalosk. She also participated in the raid on Itirup Island, before resuming convoy duty. Morton was at sea when hostilities ended with the Soviet Union in 1989, but continued convoy duty until 1990. She made several WestPac deployments in the '90s on anti-piracy duties, before being decommissioned in 2001. Morton was put on display as a war memorial at San Francisco's Pier 41, alongside the WW II submarine USS Pampanito (SS-383).

USS Richard S. Edwards (DD-950): Commissioned in 1959 and decommissioned in 1982, she was laid up at Pearl Harbor. Reactivated in September, 1985 and recommissioned in March, 1986, Edwards was one of the ASW-modified ships. She mainly served as a convoy escort on the Yokohama-San Francisco route, and shared in the sinking of the Echo-I class SSN K-45 on 12 October, 1986, while escorting Convoy SFY-26, 700 miles West of San Francisco. Edwards was sunk on 19 March, 1987, 700 miles northwest of Midway Island by AS-4 (Kh-22) Kitchen Anti-ship missiles fired from a Soviet Naval Air Force Backfire bomber. Only twelve of 324 crew survived the sinking.

USS Turner Joy (DD-951): Commissioned in 1959 and decommissioned in 1982, she was one of the ships involved in the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin Incident. She was laid up at Bremerton Navy Yard, and was reactivated in September, 1985, with her recommissioning in March, 1986. She was the last of the all-gun units of the class, and she mainly operated in Puget Sound and in Canadian waters, providing NGFS to the defenders of Vancouver. Turner Joy was in Puget Sound during the failed Soviet amphibious operation in 1986, and though only armed with her 5-inch guns, her captain charged into the Soviet force, using the confusion of air strikes and the numerous islands in Puget Sound as cover. She managed to get into the Soviet amphibious force, sinking an Alligator-class LST and a captured Alaska car ferry, while forcing another Soviet freighter to run aground on Sinclair Island, where the freighter was later destroyed by air attack. Turner Joy participated in mopping-up operations, escorting ships carrying elements of the 3rd Marine Division to secure islands where Soviet survivors-many of whom were armed, had come ashore, and she provided NGFS on several occasions. After Puget Sound, Turner Joy resumed support of the Canadian defense of Vancouver until the Soviet surrender in February, 1987. After the arrival in the Pacific of the heavy cruiser Salem, Turner Joy escorted the cruiser, and participated in both the Kamchatka and Kurile Islands raids, and also sank a Soviet Poti-class ASW corvette with gunfire during the Kamchatka raid. Turner Joy remained in the Pacific, participating in operations along the coastlines of British Columbia and Alaska, and she was the first U.S. Navy ship to enter the port of Juneau to accept the surrender of Soviet forces there on 17 October, 1989. Turner Joy remained active after the war, making a number of WestPac deployments in company with the cruiser Salem. She bombarded a number of pirate strongholds in Indonesian waters, and did the same along the South China Coast, in cooperation with elements of the Royal Navy. Turner Joy was decommissioned in 1998, and she is currently moored at Bremerton Navy Yard as a war memorial.


Displacement: 2,800 standard, 4,800 full load.

Length: 418 feet overall

Beam: 45 feet

Draft: 22 feet

Propulsion: GE Steam Turbines (Westinghouse in DD-931); 70,000 SHP, 2 shafts

Boilers: 4 Foster and Wheeler (Babcock and Wilcox in DD-937, 943, 944, 948), 1200 Psi

Speed: 32.5 Knots

Range: 4,500 Nautical Miles at 20 knots

Crew: 319-332 (19 officers and 300-313 enlisted in all gun destroyers), 309 (17 officers and 292 enlisted) in ASW-configured ships-those

Missiles: None

Guns: 3x 5-inch 54 DP Mk 42 (3 single in all-gun configuration), 2x 5-inch 54 DP in ASW-configured ships. Several pintle mounts added for .50 caliber machine guns or Mark-19 Automatic Grenade Launchers.

ASW: 1x8-cell ASROC launcher Mk 16 in ASW configured ships; 2 triple Mk 32 torpedo tubes for Mark-44 or-46 ASW torpedoes

Helicopters: VERTREP area only

Sonar: SQS-23 keel mounted on all units; SQS-35 IVDS (variable-depth sonar) in ASW ships.

Radars: SPS-10 surface search

SPS-37 air search in DD-940, 942, 946, 951.

SPS-40 in remainder of class

madmikechoi 04-27-2018 03:23 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 77925)
M-247 was a failure, period. It should be pointed out that Gepard turrets on the M-48 chassis were one of the contenders in the competition, but NIH kicked in,...


For those of us who tl;dr. The fire control was definitely able to track and engage the doppler return from rotary a/c. In face engaging that mobile latrine w/ the fanblades was actually a good thing since the hardware/software recognized anything with large rotating blades could be detrimental to health of the weapons system. Keep in mind post production software/hardware builds- new systems needs time to mature and/or user input to make them effective.

While a demonstrated failure of the 3000 psi hydraulic systems was to be replaced a 5k psi in production, bottom line Congress killing the M247 meant that Uncle Sugar wouldn't/couldn't make funds available to make the M48/M60 series of vehicles viable long term platforms for the US military.

Second, while much was made of the DIVADS lack of mobility remember Big Army doctrine made a clear distinction between being able to maneuver w/ and "compatible" mobility- ie being able to follow up tanks and PCs/IFVs on road marches. This line of thinking sorta fell by the wayside in 91 during VII Corps envelopment/pursuit of Saddam's forces.

Bottom line Big Army chose a 40mm L70 twin gun system b/c at the time the 35mm KDA didn't fire a projectile w/ a proximity fuze and it's only been in the past 10, maybe 15 years tops that's been rectified (and AHEAD sorta cheats w/ being prefragged w/ a really interesting neat muzzle brake datalink/programming thingie). The APG-66 was also lighweight and air cooled- and that's pretty crucial on a ground based mobile platform.
The issue that cause TACOM the most concern was the automatic feeding
of the twin 40s- the Dusters used multiman crews to top of the 40mm L60s
w/ two loaders feeding 4 rd clips into the thing- Sgt York was supposed to have 580 rounds fed from the turret basket and straight into the breech.

Chosing a Gepard based system may not have fared better. The 35mm guns wouldn't outrange Soviet based helo launched anti-tank missiles and the lack of proximity fuze and a smaller projectile generally may not have made up
for a higher cyclic rate of fire.

Finally, never ever forgot politics and the fundamental ignorance of politicians who have the power of the purse. That while ADA is expensive they accomplish their mission of the enemy pickles off their warload and RTBs or in the case of a helo, they breakoff and head somewhere else maybe w/ many holes in the side to remind the bird's crew they too are mortal and the oozlefinch isn't a creature to be taken lightly. In any even said ADA system still did what it was supposed to prevent air attack on friendly forces.

Matt Wiser 04-30-2018 09:52 PM

Well, I should be honored: the first person I've ever encountered who was in favor of the SGT York system.

Olefin 05-01-2018 07:45 AM

love the work you did on the Forrest Shermans and the heavy cruisers

Love to see a Twilight 2000 version of them and the Virginia's as well for the fanzine - one change from your war is that the USS Richard S. Edwards is alive and well and active off the coast of Kenya performing convoy escort and anti-pirate patrols as part of TF 212

Here is the info on her and on her captain from the sourcebook

USS Richard S. Edwards was pulled out of inactive storage and put back into commission in 1998, with LCDR Moore assigned as her captain, the first female to command a combat USN vessel. She and her ship arrived in mid-1999 as the sole escort for the last shipment of supplies and men to Kenya from the United States. LCDR Moore has led her ship since its arrival on several anti-piracy/smuggling patrols, convoy escort and shore bombardment missions. The Edwards under LCDR Moore’s command has sunk over a dozen pirate vessels of various sizes since her arrival and captured ten more including an ex-Ethiopian LST that was being used as a mother ship by the pirates and is now being used by US Navy.

Moore’s zeal in prosecuting the various pirate groups has made her quite the legend among those she hunts. Since the Somali suicide attack on the refinery she has redoubled her efforts against the pirates, who she sees as supporting the terrorists who killed several of her close friends in that attack on Mombasa. Characters may encounter her either while on a variety of missions on the Edwards or ashore at the bars in Mombasa, where she has shown an ability to drink most men under the table and hold her own in a fight.

She is a striking redhead who also is a black belt in karate and judo and has put those skills to the test in several fights both at home and in Mombasa. For those looking for a romantic adventure with her, they would be well advised to steer clear as she is still mourning her husband who was killed when the destroyer he served on was sunk with all hands in 1997.

Matt Wiser 05-01-2018 09:33 PM

Did you have a look at the Kidds and the nuclear cruisers?

Olefin 05-02-2018 07:24 AM

I saw the nuclear cruisers and good work there too - missed the Kidds - going back thru and looking for where you had them and also re-reading this from the beginning - love to see this one day collected into a single pdf or word version - definitely a great read

madmikechoi 05-02-2018 11:50 AM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 78007)
Well, I should be honored: the first person I've ever encountered who was in favor of the SGT York system.

Sarcasm aside- ADA needs both missiles and guns. And it's one of the few gigs where making the enemy go away is almost as good as killing him. And like all things in life you need both high and low. Even if Sgt York was adopted and money was thrown at it to upgrade various systems such as a radar and improved fuzing/fragmentation.... Big Army still would have had pressure from the Duck Hunters Union to field a missile based SHORAD system that had a slant range well over 5-6000 meters or 3 plus nautical miles w/ a ceiling of at least 15k ft.

Remember during the 80s, the Left had a real hard on WRT to the Reagan build up and St Ronaldus Magnus in general. Many, many big ticket items for all the services, so the Reds... er, opposition wanted their fair share of flesh. ADA had three systems that were either being developed or already developed and being fielded but all were more expensive than their predecessors. Stinger, Patriot, and Sgt York. And sometimes, most times two out of three. Sgt York was fielded yet in reality it was supposed to be complemented by the US Roland system. Roland was supposed to be in corps based brigades and DIVAD divisional but at the time there was a mix of the Vulcan and Chaparral at heavy division level (the Chaparral would later be kicked up to corps level brigades often paired w/ HAWK and Patriot battalions to provide them SHORAD coverage).

Again, the problem with the real issue with DIVAD is as a branch ADA ignored their own tactical mantras about having a missile gun SHORAD mix. It's not so much the radar didn't work especially tracking doppler returns and shortcomings using a 3000 psi hydraulic traverse/elevation would be replaced with a 5000 psi aviation type hydraulic system to give the turret occupants Captain Insane-o type speeds but the fact is a gun can only reach out so far even if the radar can track a helo popping up or coming around a bend and letting lose a ATGM or three. Again, mobility issues? Big Army still planned on using the M60 series of tanks for a good bit longer at the time.

Twilight 2K sorta solves this by providing a high low mix from the get go although Chadwick and company didn't realize it.

Matt Wiser 05-02-2018 08:42 PM

1 Attachment(s)
In the Red Dawn timeline, the M-105 ADGS handles air defense at brigade level: An M-1 hull with a turret mounting two 35-mm cannon and 12 ADATS missiles takes care of the mission.

This vehicle:

Matt Wiser 05-03-2018 07:40 PM

Fellows, this is a story from before my character took command of the 335th. There is some gas available for civilian use, and so four officers in the squadron go off-roading for some R&R.

Read it, and have a good laugh: folks on the HPCA and alternatehistory.com boards had some....And what would you do if you were that Cuban?


335th Tactical Fighter Squadron, Williams AFB, AZ, 1100 Hours Mountain War Time, 18 November, 1986.

Captain Matt Wiser of the 335th was sitting at his desk in the squadron office. He was deputy Operations Officer for the squadron, and had just wrapped up some paperwork. War or no war, the Air Force bureaucracy had its own rules, and the “paper warriors” had their own ways of going about things. Though the CO, Lt. Col. Dean Rivers, felt that the less paper in the way, the better, and he had no qualms about folding, spindling, mutilating, bending, or just plain ignoring regulations if they got in the way of getting things done. The Exec, Major Troy McPherson, felt the same way, and let that filter down to the other officers, and having the CO of the Marine Air Group to which they were attached, and Major General Richard Tanner, who commanded the Tenth Air Force, agree with that was a big morale booster. They knew what parts of the book to keep and which ones to throw away. Everyone was happy with that, except for another Major, who was an Academy man first, last, and always, and was appalled at the way things were done in the squadron, and was despised by everyone, and not just the other officers, but the NCOs and enlisted airmen as well. The man was even called “Our Frank Burns,” by 1st Lt. Mark Ellis, and the name had stuck.

Now, his squadron paperwork all done, Capt. Wiser was wondering how to spend the rest of the stand-down. The squadron had been pulled off combat operations for two days already, and wouldn't be back flying for another five, and a lot of people were using that time to catch up on sleep, or just plain hang out. The squadron was billeted at the nearby Sheraton in Mesa, and just sitting by the pool and chasing waitresses-or other female officers did appeal to him, but since he had met his WSO, the latter was no longer an option, for he and that officer, 1st Lt. Lisa Eichhorn, had been seeing each other in a way that, prewar, would've gotten them an Article 15 at least, but with the country fighting for its national survival, fraternization regs were among the first things that went out the window, as far as many unit commanders were concerned. Though the eager-beaver Major, much to Rivers' (and both Capt. Wiser's and Lt. Eichhorn's) disgust, had tried to write them up for the rule violation. The CO was more concerned with how his officers did their jobs, and if a couple of officers of the opposite sex were attracted to each other, that was none of his-or anyone else's business, as long as they kept their private lives off base. “What you guys and gals do when you're off base and on your own time is nobody's business, but yours. Just check your private lives at the gate when you come on base,” he had told the squadron at a unit assembly back in July. And yet, the overzealous Major didn't get the word, or didn't care, for he tried to have Guru (Wiser's call sign) and Goalie (Eichhorn's), written up. After summoning the two to his office, Colonel Rivers asked if they were seeing each other on a more.....intimate basis, and they said yes. “Does it interfere with both of you in the cockpit?” “No, Sir,” was the reply. And Guru and Goalie watched with satisfaction as Rivers tore up the paper. The Frank Burns wannabe stormed out of the office in a fit of the sulks.

Guru was looking at his aircraft log book-which was different from his own personal logbook. There were a couple of issues he felt needed attention, with the altimeter giving some trouble, and the INS was starting to get a little balky, so he filled out the maintenance request and was ready to give it to 1st Lt. Kevin O'Donnell, one of the maintenance officers, when Goalie came by. “I just talked to Rivers. We've both got five days R&R if we want it.”


“Yep. We've been hitting it pretty hard, and he agreed. Hell, half the squadron's going on R&R-as long as it's within the State of Arizona and nowhere near the Mexican border..”

Guru nodded. “Got any ideas? I've been to the Grand Canyon already.”

“So have I,” Goalie said. “And the ski areas near Flagstaff don't have enough snow yet, anyway.”

Then 1st Lt. Kyle Radner came by. He was Guru's wingmate. “What are you guys doing for R&R?”

“I was just asking our flight lead the same thing,” Lieutenant Eichhorn said. “Well?”

Guru thought for a minute. Skiing wasn't on the agenda, and just sitting by the pool didn't appeal to him-as long as Goalie was around. He'd seen her in a bathing suit often-and out of one several times. Then something occurred to him. “How about going off-roading?”

“Where?” Radner asked.

“Either northeast of here, in the Tonto National Forest, or to the west of Phoenix,in the desert,” Wiser said.

“What about the nuclear power plant?” Goalie asked. “That place has so much security you'd think it was Fort Knox.” She was referring to the Palo Verde Nuclear Power Plant west of Phoenix. The plant provided much of the power for the Phoenix-Tuscon area, including several defense plants in the Mesa and Tuscon areas, as well as military bases. Hence, the DOE guards had been reinforced by military police, and a five-mile “no-go” zone was being strictly enforced. There were checkpoints on I-10 and the local roads, and word had it that anyone straying off the roads could expect to be shot, and to make matters worse, there were minefields around the plant, or so rumor said.

“Not to worry: we get past the plant, get off of the Interstate, and then go off road,” Guru said. “There's some BLM land, and that should be enough. A couple of desert springs, maybe an old ghost town, things like that. Out in the middle of nowhere, so we can forget the war for a few days.”

And it's private, Goalie knew. Which appealed to her a great deal. “Sounds good.” She turned to Kyle “How about it?”

“Why not? I'll get Brad Garrison and our girlfriends,” Radner said. “What'll we be driving? Dune buggies?”

Guru laughed. “No. That Jeep dealer I bought my Grand Cherokee from? They also rent four-by-fours. And I do believe someone you know, Kyle, has a Jeep CJ-7.”

Wiser was referring to newly-promoted 1st Lt. Ryan Blanchard, who happened to be Radner's girlfriend.

“You're right about that.”

“Okay. Got anyone else you want to invite?” Guru asked.

“Not this time: the smaller the party, the better. And we're not an inviting target.”

Guru knew what Radner meant. There were reports of Soviet, Cuban, and even Mexican Special Operations Forces slipping across the border and raising whatever havoc they could create. “Yeah,” he nodded. “All right: go to the Armory and check out four M-16s and some ammo. Bring your sidearm.”

Goalie and Radner nodded. “Will do.”

“I'll call the dealer and rent a Jeep for Goalie and myself. I'm not taking my Grand Cherokee off-road just yet.”

“And I'll get the camping gear from the Base Recreation Office,” Goalie said.

Radner came back. He'd called his WSO, Capt. Brad Garrision. No joy on the trip, Brad said: he had an uncle who lived in Prescott, and the man had invited Brad up for some fishing.

1400 Hours Mountain War Time: I-10, West of Phoenix, AZ:

Guru was driving the Jeep that he'd rented only two hours before, and it was packed with gear. He and Goalie had packed enough to last four and a half days, and they planned to be back at Williams the afternoon of the 23rd. Even with wartime, traffic along I-10 in Phoenix was flowing normally: people still lived along the I-10 corridor, and they had to go to and from work, there were employees at the Palo Verde nuclear power plant, and they had their commutes, truck traffic-both civilian and military, and so on. Except for the occasional HAWK missile site that was part of the Phoenix Air Defense, and the amount of military traffic, one might forget there was a war on.

When he'd rented the Jeep, the salesman-who he'd dealt with when Guru had bought his Grand Cherokee, pointed out a couple of dings. When Capt. Wiser asked what had made them, the salesman replied, matter of fact it seemed, that the previous renters had run afoul of some Cubans, and they had taken some fire. “Lovely,” had been Guru's reply.

After they cleared Phoenix itself, traffic thinned out, but then they came across a vivid reminder that the war was still on. Five miles before the offramp, there was a sign: “MILITARY AREA: CHECKPOINT AHEAD: MILITARY POLICE.” This was part of the security for the Palo Verde plant. “Get your ID out,” Guru said to Goalie.

When they got to the checkpoint, there were plenty of MPs around, along with some V-100 and V-150 armored cars, machine-gun emplacements, even a pair of jeeps with TOW missile launchers. Goalie looked at Guru. This was the first time either one had been in this part of Arizona. “They're not fooling around,” she noted.

“With that nuke plant?” Guru asked. “Would you?”

An MP Sergeant came up to the Jeep as Guru stopped. “ID, Sir.”

Guru handed the MP both his and Goalie's, along with their passes. “Here you go, Sergeant.”

“Sir, Ma'am, would you step out of the vehicle? We need to check beneath.”

Both officers got out of the jeep, and stood aside as the MP checked underneath the jeep with mirrors. “Sir, do you have anything in the vehicle we should know about?”

“Besides our camping gear?” Guru asked, and the MP nodded. “Two M-16s and two pistols, for protection.”

“Thank you, Sir,” The MP nodded. Several of the MPs checked the jeep, and Goalie noticed Radner's jeep being given a similar going-over.

The inspection took a few minutes, and Guru noticed the heavy security off the freeway: there was a barbed-wire fence that was topped with razor wire, along with signs that warned the unwary that not only could trespassers expect to be shot, but there also signs warning of minefields. And there was a UH-1 helo flying over as well.

Then an MP nodded to his Sergeant. “All clear, Sarge.”

The MP handed their ID and passes back. “Thank you, Sir, Ma'am. Just stay on the freeway and you'll be fine. Don't get off the interstate for any reason until you pass the eastbound checkpoint.”

Nodding, Guru and Goalie got back in the jeep and got going. At the offramp, there was another checkpoint at the end, for those exiting the freeway, and there were more Military Police there. Another five miles, and then they came to the eastbound checkpoint, and a sign that said “END MILITARY AREA.” Only then did he open up and head west to the exit they planned to take, Exit 81. Then they headed up on the local road to the small town of Salome, where they stopped to ask where some good jeep driving might be found. A couple of locals pointed out some areas on their map that prewar, some off-road clubs from Phoenix had used, with a warning as well. “Some folks say they've seen Cubans around, but no telling if they're true or not.”

Guru took the jeep onto some of the trails, and both he and Radner gave their jeeps a good workout. That first night, they found a campsite that other off-roaders had used, mainly due to the fire ring present. In the light of the campfire, Ryan Blanchard remarked that one might even be able to forget there was a war on. The night sky was clear, and filled with stars, and that made her point. And when the four went into their tents, they discovered another, more....intimate way of forgetting they were at war.

22 November 1986, 1700 Mountain War Time. North of U.S. 60, La Paz County, AZ:

Three days had passed, and the quartet was getting ready to enjoy their final night in the desert. Radner had found an old mine, but no one was foolish enough to go inside, fearing a cave-in. Several old mining shacks and a few old ranch houses, though, had been worth exploring, and though most everything had been taken with the previous occupants, heavy items like a wood stove, or a metal frame bed, remained. Not to mention finding an old 1920s' era truck that had been stripped and abandoned. “Why's this thing still here?” Radner asked.

“Simple: it's so far off the main roads, and want to bet the scrap metal drives haven't come this way?” Goalie replied.

“Yeah, I suppose so,” he said. “Who'd want to try farming here?”

“Somebody who was either desperate, foolish, or both,” Ryan said. “No wonder they left.”

“Or they left when WW II broke out,” Guru said. “Either way, a job in a war plant or just plain enlisting beats staying out here.”

Nodding, Ryan went out back. “There's a well, and..uh-oh.”

“What?” Goalie asked.

“Boot prints, and they're not that old. Maybe a week.”

Guru and Radner came over, along with Goalie, to have a look. “Whose?” Guru asked.

“Good question,” Ryan said. “They're degraded, though. Wind and rain, I'd say.”

“Didn't it rain, when, Tuesday?” Goalie asked.

“Yep,” Guru said. “That'd degrade any prints. Remember SERE? 'Rain is your friend when it comes to water. Just as long as you don't leave your own prints in the mud.”

“Let me guess: that came back to help on that E&E?” Radner quipped.


Goalie looked at the tracks, “Well, somebody's been here. The question is, who?”

“That is a very good question,” Ryan said. Her instinct as a CSP was in high gear. “The well's not dry, so whoever it was probably stopped to get water.”

“Still, we'd better find a campsite soon,” Guru said. “And when we do, just as we've been doing, we keep our rifles close by.”

“Roger that,” Goalie said, and the others nodded.

23 November 1986: 0225 Mountain War Time, North of U.S. 60, La Paz County, AZ:

The party found a campsite near a pond that showed on their BLM maps. There was a rocky ledge about a hundred yards away, but after Guru led Ryan on a search-an old habit from his E&E days, he pronounced the area clear. After a meal of MREs and coffee, they settled down for the night. It would be their last night before heading back to Williams the next morning, and the day after that, for the F-4 crewers, it was back in the saddle, and taking it to the ComBloc. There was some stargazing, and a couple of meteors made sure that part of the night didn't go to waste, then Radner and Ryan went into their tent, and soon after, Guru and Goalie did the same. And things got much more....intimate after that.

Unknown to the party, a six-man patrol of Cuban Special Forces was up on the ledge, watching. They were on a recon, having been inserted by helicopter from Mexico a few days earlier, and they had been watching U.S. 60 and I-10, noting the traffic on both highways. Now, they were about to try and execute the second phase of their mission, and take a prisoner or two with them back to Mexico for interrogation. Civilian or military, it didn't matter. The Team Leader gave his orders, and his men headed down toward the campsite.

In the tent she shared with Radner, Ryan Blanchard woke up. Something just didn't seem right. Whether it was her instinct as a cop-and she had been one before the war, or what, she didn't know, but something was out there, she felt. The moonlight came through the tent, and she could see her bare skin-Kyle was as good in a sleeping bag as he was in bed, and she smiled at that. Still, something was up. So she put on her boots, when there was a sound outside.

Goalie heard that sound, too. “Matt, wake up!” She hissed.

Guru woke up to see Goalie leaning over him. The last time someone had woken him up in a tent, he'd seen that....thing. “What?” He whispered.

“Something's out there, and I don't think it's a coyote.” She paused. “We may have two-legged company.”

“Uh-oh...Get dressed,” Guru said. Goalie was in her birthday suit, and he only had his underwear on. He threw on a T-Shirt and his boots, and was reaching for his rifle, when a shot rang out.

“Oh, Shit!” Goalie said, throwing on a T-shirt of her own, and grabbing her own rifle, when gunfire came from the other tent.

Ryan watched as the intruders-three of them, she could see, approached the camp. She had only time to put on her combat boots and grab her M-16, and wake up Kyle at the same time, before she took matters into her own hands. Ryan poked her M-16 out the tent flap, took aim at the lead intruder, and opened fire, dropping him with a four-round burst. Then AK fire came in reply.

“Great!” Guru said as the bullets started flying. “We come out here to get away from the war, and it found us.” He spotted a target and fired, putting a bullet into the target's shoulder.

“Hey, you're used to this!” Goalie said as she grabbed her own rifle. “I'm not.”

Another burst of gunfire came from the other tent, and in the moonlight, Guru saw another intruder drop to the ground, apparently dead. Then he heard shouts in Spanish. “Cubans.....”

In their tent, Ryan looked at Kyle. He had his own M-16 at the ready. “Remember your small-arms training?”

“Yeah. At the Academy: my Doolie Summer,” he replied.

“Good enough. Cover me.” She said, grabbing her M-16 and running outside, with Radner firing as she did so. Only then did he realize that she only had her combat boots on.

Guru and Goalie saw it as well. “What the??” Goalie said, incredulous at the sight.

“Cover her,” Guru said. He sprayed the ridgeline with his own M-16, and advanced to his Jeep. He cautiously went around the back, and found a Cuban there, clutching his left shoulder. The man tried to go for his own AKM, but Guru put a burst into his chest, killing him. He then saw Ryan running up to the ridge. “Goalie!”


“Throw some gas on the fire when I tell you to.” He ordered.

Nodding, she came to the jeep and pulled out a gas can. “Ready.”

“Not yet,” he said, spraying more fire at the ridge, then he grabbed a fresh magazine in the jeep and slapped it into his rifle.

Up on the ridge, the Cuban Lieutenant was having a fit. What had seemed to be an easy mark was clearly not the case, and whoever they were down there, they were more than ready. He recognized the M-16 by its own sound, and he cursed this wretched country, where anyone and their mother could have such a rifle if they were civilians. Now, three of his men were down, and counting himself, there were only three left. And the gunfire from down below had them pinned down. Going to recover the bodies of their comrades, as per their orders, was clearly not an option. He turned to one of the two troopers left. “You two, get to the rendezvous point. I'll cover you. If I'm not there in an hour, proceed to the extraction site.”

“Si, Comrade Lieutenant,” one of the troopers-a corporal-said.


As the two troopers slipped away, the Lieutenant heard a sound It sounded like someone was coming around one of the rocks. He raised his AKM, only to see a flash, and then he felt his right leg come out from under him.

Ryan watched the two Cubans run down the other side of the ridge in the moonlight, but she saw a third. He turned to face her,and raised his rifle, but she didn't give him that chance. Ryan didn't have time to aim, so she sprayed a burst at his lower body, and watched as he went down, clutching his right leg. She walked over to him and kicked the AKM out of the way, then she safed it and after picking it up, she slung it over her shoulder, and taking his pistol as well.. “Nice try, Fidel.” The Cuban looked at her. “Now get up.”

Down below, Guru, Goalie, and Radner were scanning the ridgeline. There was no more fire coming, and they had heard Ryan's M-16. “We go up? Radner asked.

“No,” Guru said firmly. “We wait.” His time with the Resistance was showing, and this was the first time anyone in the squadron had been able to see it.

Goalie looked at him and nodded. He's been through this before, she realized. She turned back to look at the ridge, and saw someone limping, with another right behind with a rifle in hand and another over the shoulder. “I think that's her. Nobody's shooting.”

“Time to make sure. Ryan!”


“Who were the three hosts of That's Incredible!”

“John Davidson, Cathy Lee Crosby, and Fran Tarkenton! Guru, I loved that show!”

“That's her,” Goalie said. “And I liked that show, too.”

Nodding, Guru said. “Come on in!” He turned to Goalie. “Now you can get the gas on the fire.”

Goalie took a metal gas can and flung some gas on the campfire embers, and the fire blazed up. In the firelight, they could see Ryan, wearing only her combat boots, and with an M-16 in one hand, a Tokarev TT-33 pistol in another, and an AKM slung over her shoulder, pushing a Cuban soldier ahead of her. And everyone could see the Cuban was wounded. “Well, I'll be damned.”

“What?” Ryan asked.

“You're probably the first woman to capture an enemy wearing her birthday suit and combat boots.”

Hearing that, Guru and Radner laughed. And both could see Ryan breaking out with an evil-looking smile. “I wonder if Fidel here knows?” Guru commented.

“He's wounded,” Ryan said. “Someone get a first-aid kit.”

Radner went to their jeep and got the kit. He checked the wound in the blazing firelight. “Looks like a through-and-through.” He commented, putting some sulfa in the wound and applying a pressure bandage. Working quickly, he finished bandaging the Cuban, who nodded his thanks, then he started babbling in Spanish.

“What's he saying?” Guru asked. “Anybody speak Spanish?”

The others shook their heads no.

“All right,” Guru said. He stuck his head in the Cuban's face. “Speak any English?”

“Si,” the Cuban replied.

“What are you talking about?” Guru demanded.

“Senor, please, shoot me.”

“What?” Guru asked, shocked. “Why?”

The Cuban looked at Ryan. “Because, not only have I been captured by a woman, but by a naked woman. I will never live this down, and if I make it to one of your prison camps, I will be a laughingstock. Please, Senor, shoot me!”

The other three looked at Ryan. She had put the Cuban's rifle and pistol in the Jeep, but was still pointing her M-16 at the Cuban. And she was still wearing only her combat boots. She looked at Guru, who nodded, then said to the Cuban. “That's your problem.”


“Sorry, but you'll be handed over to the proper authorities who deal with prisoners of war. If you want to try to escape, you can take your chances with them.” Ryan said to the Cuban, who was not at all happy, and was on the verge of crying.

“I beg you! Please! You can say to your own people that I was trying to escape...please!”

“Sorry...” Ryan said as she went back into the tent.

“What'll we do with this loser?” Radner said.

“We do what Ryan said. We'll take Highway 60 back, and we can drop him off at Luke's main gate. Their intel shop will want to have a chat with this guy,” Guru decided. “But this is a first.”

“What?” Goalie asked.

“We never kept prisoners when I was with the Resistance. Lori Sheppard had a habit of shooting them. Either when their interrogations were finished, or she just plain shot them out of hand.”

Hearing that, the Cuban was hoping that this American, who had clearly been with the bandits and terrorists who called themselves the Resistance, might take his old comrade's habit to heart, and finish him. But that was not to be.

“All right,” Guru ordered. “Goalie, find some rope and tie this guy up. I'll take the first watch. You take over in an hour, then Radner, then Ryan.”

“Hopefully, she'll be dressed this time,” Radner observed.

“Maybe,” Guru smiled, then turned to the Cuban, who was practically in tears.

0630 Hours Mountain War Time, 23 November, 1986, La Paz County, AZ.

“Rise and Shine, sleepyheads!” Ryan shouted.

Guru and Goalie came out of their tent. After taking their turns guarding the prisoner, both had gone back to sleep-fully dressed this time, and Radner had done the same. Now, it was time to eat breakfast, break camp, and start heading back to civilization.

As they ate, they noticed their prisoner, who was hog-tied in the back of Guru and Goalie's jeep. “Give him something?” Radner asked.

“If Lori Sheppard was here, she'd be asking about his last meal,” Guru quipped.

“That bad?” Goalie asked. She knew full well what her pilot had experienced on that E&E, and they'd had a long talk about it. Just in case they went skydiving, and and met up with the guerillas.

“She'd be thinking about where to shoot him and how many times,” Guru said. “Lori had no problems about blowing out somebody's kneecaps, and maybe his elbows, too, before finishing him off. Given what they did to her family, I don't blame her at all.”

“From what you told me,” Goalie chipped in, “neither do I.”

As they ate, Ryan decided to give the Cuban a granola bar, which he took gratefully, even though he was hog-tied in the back of a jeep. And he was still begging her to shoot him. She shook her head, then went back to help break camp. “This chump's still asking us to shoot him.”

“He'll be disappointed. When we get to Luke, they'll have a chat with this dude, and send somebody out after his friends.” Guru said.

“Who?” Radner asked.

“Ever hear of the Apache trackers?”

“Oh...Them.” Radner said quietly.

Goalie nodded. “Yep, them. And a lot of their old ways came back with the war.” She turned to the Cuban, knowing that he was listening. “If they had caught this guy, he'd be smeared with honey, left out in the desert, and leave him for the ants.” And the expression on the Cuban's face was one of shock.

“I guess he knows,” Ryan quipped. “You guys remember that Blinder that went down on the reservation? You know, the one near San Carlos?”

“The one where the Army found all three crewmen scalped and left staked out in the desert, after they'd been flayed alive?” Guru said.

“That's the one. The Army and the AF had to remind the tribe that it was hard to interrogate corpses, and that taking a downed Russian or Cuban alive was a good thing.” Ryan said, glaring at the Cuban, who looked properly terrified.

“Well, the trackers will find this guy's friends, wherever they are,” Goalie said. “And they'd better hope the trackers are in the mood to bring 'em in alive. Otherwise....”

The Cuban lieutenant's expression was one of horror. Were these Americans going to turn him over to the Wild Indians? Their savagery was well-known to the Socialist Forces, and apart from a few progressive individuals, the tribes had disdained the efforts of the liberating forces, and had taken to the hills and formed their own groups of terrorists. If a company or a battalion went on a sweep, they found nothing. If a squad or platoon went on a patrol, they never came back, and often, the soldiers had been put to death in ways that their Soviet adviser said “Would make an Afghan puke.”

Guru finished his MRE coffee. “All right, let's break camp and get going.”

“What about the Cuban bodies?” Radner asked.

“What about 'em?” Guru replied. “Take their weapons and ammo, check them for any documents, maps, etc, and just plain leave 'em. The trackers will take care of the bodies.” Even if it's tossing them in that pond, Guru thought to himself. Good riddance.

0930 Hours Mountain War Time, U.S. 60, La Paz County, AZ.

It had taken an hour to break camp, and another hour and a half to get to a road, but finally, the party was on U.S. 60, headed east. They had passed through a couple of small towns, and except for locals, and a couple of delivery trucks making their rounds, there was hardly any traffic. It was a Sunday, after all. When they went through the towns, some folks waved. At a STOP sign, a local deputy sheriff was curious. “Got an extra passenger?”

“He crashed our party last night,” Guru said. “Taking him to Luke AFB.”

“Cuban or Mexican?” The deputy asked.


The deputy nodded. “Better you guys got him than the local posse. They've found a few Cubans and Mexicans out this way.”

“Turn 'em over to the Army?” Ryan asked.

“A few. Some tried to escape,” said the deputy. “And they got either shot, or if they were recaptured, the posse didn't bother with the Army. They got strung up from the chaparral.”

“Good way to deal with 'em,” Goalie said.

“You all have a good day,” the deputy said. “If he tries to escape...”

“Don't worry about that.”

A couple hours later, they were approaching the Phoenix area. Goalie was driving this time, and Guru had a map out. “Litchfield Road is the one we want. That takes us right to Luke.”

“Roger that,” Goalie said. “How's our passenger?”

Guru turned to check on the Cuban, pointing his M-16 in the prisoner's direction. He was still hog-tied in the back, half buried under the camping gear. “Still there.”

“Good,” she nodded. Then an intersection came after a few miles. The sign said, “Litchfield Rd. Luke AFB.” She glanced at Guru. “This it?”

He nodded.”Take the right.”

She took the right, and Ryan and Radner were right behind them. Traffic was light for a Sunday, and it didn't take long until they were at Luke's main gate. As one expected, there was a lot of security. “Now what? Just drop this chump off?”

Guru unbuckled his seat belt and stood up. There were quite a few CSPs there, checking vehicles entering the base. One of them seemed to glance in their direction. He waved, and the airman came to the jeep to see what was going on. Guru handed the airman his ID.

The airman looked at the ID, then said, “Sir, what can I do for you?”

“We were off-roading, and had this chump-” Guru motioned to the Cuban, then went on “crash our party last night. Can we turn him over to you?”

The airman-who'd been in the Air Force all of six months, nodded. “Let me get my sergeant, Sir.”

“You do that.”

The airman went back to the gate, and talked to a couple of other CSPs. They came back, and one of them was a Staff Sergeant. “Sir?”

“Got a Cuban for you guys,” Guru said.

“Sir, bring him up to the gate, and we'll take him off your hands.” the Sergeant said.

“We'll follow you,” Guru said, nodding to Goalie.

The airmen waited until the traffic ahead had gone onto the base, then waved the two jeeps on in. Since Guru was the ranking officer, he went to deal with the security people. The sergeant opened the door to the Security Office at the gate. A female CSP Lieutenant was there, “Captain,” She said. “You have a Cuban?”

“That's right, and I want to turn him over to you guys. He's wounded, and there were likely buddies with him.” Guru said.

She nodded, “Let's go see him.”

Guru took her to the jeep and showed the Cuban to her. She nodded to her CSPs, and they got the prisoner out of the jeep.. “No problem, Captain. We'll take it from here.”

One of the CSPs checked the Cuban over. “Sir,” he jokingly said to Guru, “you don't have tags for this one.”

“Open season, Charlie,” the sergeant replied. “And no bag limit.”

“Lieutenant,” Guru said, “You might want to sic the Apache Trackers after this guy's buddies. We killed three of 'em, and he had to have had more.” He took out the map and showed where the encounter had occurred.

“No problem, Sir,” the CSP officer said. “We've got some here, and they'll find the rest of 'em. Dead or alive.”

One of the airmen came up with a EPW form on a clipboard. “Sir, you need to fill this out.”

Guru nodded, then waved to Ryan “Come on up here. You caught him.”

Ryan came up, and both of them filled out the form. After signing it, Ryan said, “He's all yours.”

Guru handed the form to the CSP officer. “One other thing: this guy's been begging us to shoot him since we caught him.”

“Why?” Asked the CSP Lieutenant.

“Because, when Lieutenant Blanchard here caught him, she had on only her combat boots and an M-16.” Guru said. The CSP officer looked at Ryan, who simply nodded.

“We won't let him forget it,” the CSP Sergeant said, overhearing the conversation as two airmen untied the Cuban.


The Cuban tapped the CSP Sergeant on the shoulder, then pointed to Ryan, “Mean Woman!”

And everyone laughed.

1400 Hours Mountain War Time, 335th TFS, Williams AFB, AZ

After turning in the camping gear and weapons, and returning the rented jeep to the dealer, the party went back to the squadron to check in. Colonel Rivers was there, earlier than they expected. “Boss,” Guru said. “Enjoy your time off?”

“That I did. Never been to the Grand Canyon before, so that was a good one,” Colonel Rivers said. “How about you guys?”

They all looked at each other. “Well, Sir,” Goalie said. “We had some offroading, some stargazing, and...”

“Let me guess, each other's company?” Rivers asked.

The couples looked at each other and shrugged.

“Guess that's a 'yes,' I'd bet,” Rivers said.

“Yes, Sir,” Ryan said.

“Now, what's this about a Cuban?” Rivers wanted to know. “First thing I get when I come back is a call from Luke, thanking you guys for bringing in a Cuban prisoner.”

The four all looked at each other. “Well, uh,” Radner said.

“Out with it!” Rivers said.

“It went like this, Sir,” said Ryan. And she told the story. When she was finished, Rivers was incredulous.

“Was it really like that?” He wanted to know.

Guru and Goalie nodded. “Yes, Sir,” Guru said. “It's true. In every detail.”

“Incredible,” Rivers said. “All right, get settled back in, get plenty of sleep, because 0530 tomorrow, it's back in the saddle.”

“YES, SIR!” All four shouted.

“Dismissed,” Rivers said, still shaking his head.

As they left Squadron HQ, Radner asked, “Now what?”

“Follow the Boss' advice: have a good dinner, hit the sack early, and it's SA-6s, Shilkas, and MiGs all over again,” Guru said to his wingmate.

One week later, Radner and his back-seater were dead, victims of SA-6. A painful reminder of how in wartime, life could be short. It was Guru and Goalie who broke the news to Ryan. Ten years later, Major Ryan Blanchard would name her firstborn son Kyle, in honor of a friend who had helped make her first weeks at Williams as pleasant as could be in wartime.

Matt Wiser 05-04-2018 07:28 PM

The Kidd (Ayatollah) class DDGs in the war:

The Kidd class Guided Missile Destroyers in World War III

The four destroyers of the Kidd class have been described as “The Ayatollah Khomeni's gift to the U.S. Navy.” Originally ordered for the Imperial Iranian Navy in 1976, they were AAW versions of the Spruance-class destroyers, with Mk 26 twin launchers for the Standard ER SAM and ASROC, as opposed to the ASROC and Sea Sparrow launchers of the Spruance-class ships. After the fall of the Shah, the Khomeni regime canceled the order for the ships, and they were acquired by the U.S. Navy in July, 1979. The ships have been informally called the “Ayatollah class, or the Dead-Admiral Class.” They were the most powerful destroyers in the U.S. Navy at the outbreak of war, giving splendid war service, and all four remain in service today in the Naval Reserve Force.

USS Kidd (DDG-993): Assigned to the Atlantic Fleet at the outbreak of war, she served as an escort for the carriers Eisenhower and America for much of the war. Kidd got around, supporting carriers during operations against Libya and the liberation of Gibraltar. She later participated in the liberation of Iceland and the Kola raid, serving as an AAW “Gatekeeper” for the Eisenhower. During Operation GULF HAMMER, she provided AAW cover for the cruiser Des Moines on the NGFS line, and was the command ship for an ASW group in the Gulf during the endgame in the Gulf in 1989. On several occasions, she took shots at Soviet aircraft inbound or leaving Brownsville, killing several, while she participated in the sinking of several Soviet submarines. Kidd then supported the Cuba blockade, providing AAW support to the destroyers on the blockade line. After the Armistice, she began to carry the SH-60B ASW helicopter in place of the wartime SH-2F, and resumed normal deployments with the Sixth Fleet. In 2004, she was reassigned to the Naval Reserve Force, and is still assigned to the NRF, home-ported at Mayport Naval Station, FL.

USS Callaghan (DDG-994): Assigned to the Pacific Fleet at war's beginning, she mainly served as an AAW escort to the carrier USS Ranger (CV-61) for much of the war. Callaghan supported the Ranger Carrier Battle Group's operations against Soviet-occupied Alaska and the Upper British Columbia Coast, and participated in the sinking of the Charlie-I class SSGN K-308 on 7 May, 1987. She participated in the Kamchatka Raid, and received damage from a near-hit AS-5 antiship missile that her CIWS guns exploded a mere one hundred yards from the ship. After repairs at the Bremerton Navy Yard, she was assigned to convoy duty on the Yokohama-San Francisco run, and was involved in the sinking of two Soviet submarines, the Victor-I class K-38 on 11 May 1988 350 miles east of Marcus Island, and the Echo-II SSGN K-116 1100 miles west of San Francisco on 2 April, 1989. Callaghan was torpedoed by the Akula-class SSN K-191 on 11 June of that year, and spent the next six months undergoing repairs at Bremerton Navy Yard, having lost her propellers and rudder. She returned to service in January, 1990, and after workups, resumed normal deployments with the Pacific Fleet, receiving the SH-60B as well. After several WestPac deployments, she was reassigned to the Naval Reserve Force, with her home port at San Diego.

USS Scott (DDG-995): Assigned to the Atlantic Fleet, she was assigned to escort the carrier Coral Sea, and left Norfolk with that carrier when war began. Scott participated in operations in the Mediterranean, and after the carrier was sunk by a Backfire strike in January, 1986 while returning from the Mediterranean, she was reassigned to convoy duty. Scott provided AAW cover to numerous convoys, before joining the amphibious force assigned to the Liberation of Iceland and then she took part in the Kola Raid, where she was the AAW “Gatekeeper” for the carrier John F. Kennedy. Scott resumed convoy duty after Kola, and sank two Soviet Submarines, the Foxtrot-class SS B-57 on 22 October, 1987, 200 miles north of Bermuda, and the Hotel-II SSN K-40 on 5 February 1988, 340 miles west of the Azores. She was reassigned to the John F. Kennedy battle group for Operation GULF HAMMER, and remained with the carrier group for the rest of the war, escorting the carrier during that operation, strikes against Cuba, and participated in the final operations against the Brownsville Pocket in 1989. After Cuba's acceptance of the Armistice, Scott returned to Norfolk, and after a yard period, returned to normal operations. She received the SH-60B, and participated in several deployments to the Sixth Fleet and anti-piracy patrols off of Somalia and Yemen. Like her sisters, she was later reassigned to the Naval Reserve Force, and home-ported at Norfolk.

USS Chandler (DDG-996): The other unit of the class assigned to the Pacific Fleet, she was at Subic Bay in the Philippines when hostilities began, as pat of the Constellation Carrier Battle Group. Chandler and the other AAW ships were able to use their weapons to defend against a Soviet air attack from Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam (Tu-16K Badgers of Soviet Naval Aviation with AS-6 missiles). The carrier group left Subic Bay afterwards and the next day, launched air strikes against the Soviet base. Chandler remained part of the Constellation Group for much of the war, and participated in the mopping-up after the Battle of Puget Sound, where she encountered two Soviet stragglers, sinking the Kanin-class DDG Gnevny and an Alligator-class LST. Chandler then assisted in the mop-up on the San Juan Islands, before the carrier group returned to San Diego. Her next combat was back in the South China Sea, where a combined U.S. Navy, Royal Australian Navy, and ROC Navy force eliminated the Soviet squadron based at Cam Ranh Bay, and both air and missile attack neutralized the base. Chandler also participated in the Kamchatka and Kurile operations, and sank a Foxtrot-class submarine that nearly torpedoed the carrier. Operations off of Mexico and against Alaska followed, and the Constellation group covered the seaborne force that landed in Anchorage, Juneau, and the Alaskan islands after the Soviet surrender on 14 October 1989. After a brief upgrade that included a SH-60B detachment to replace the SH-2F that had been the ship's wartime helo complement, Chandler resumed routine deployments to WestPac, joining the Abraham Lincoln Carrier Battle Group when that carrier joined the Pacific Fleet. She, like her sisters, was reassigned to the NRF, and is home-ported at Naval Station Everett, Washington.

Displacement: 9,574 tons full load

Length: 563 feet

Beam: 55 feet

Draft: 30 feet

Propulsion: 4 GE LM 2500 gas turbines, 80,000 SHP, 2 shafts

Speed: 30+ knots

Crew: 339 (20 officers and 319 enlisted)

Helicopters: 1 SH-2F LAMPS I, later 2 SH-60B LAMPS III

Missiles: 2x Mk 26 twin launchers for Standard 1 ER SAMs

2x Mk 141 Quad Harpoon launchers

Guns: 2 5-inch Mk 54 single mounts

2x 20-mm Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS

Several pintle mounts for .50 caliber machine guns or Mark 19 Automatic Grenade Launchers.

ASW Weapons: ASROC fired from forward Mk 26 launcher

2x triple Mk 32 torpedo tubes for Mark 46 torpedoes

Radars: SPS-48C 3-D search

SPS-53 Surface Search

SPS-55 Surface Search

Sonars: SQS-53A bow mounted

SQR-19 Towed Array Sonar

EW: SLQ-25 Nixie


RN7 05-04-2018 10:43 PM

Matt would you be able do that sort of detailed write up for US Navy ships in the Twilight War?

Matt Wiser 05-04-2018 10:49 PM

I might try for a few classes: the carriers, battleships, cruisers, and a few of the destroyers. I have also mentioned a few subs in the naval article in the fanzine.

RN7 05-04-2018 10:56 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Wiser (Post 78033)
I might try for a few classes: the carriers, battleships, cruisers, and a few of the destroyers. I have also mentioned a few subs in the naval article in the fanzine.

I'd like to have a look at that if you get the time to do it. Naval warfare in T2K is a bit neglected I think. I have thought about doing it myself for some navies but as always I just cant get enough time to finish or even start it.

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