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-   -   Central Europe, Winter of 2000-2001 Unit Map (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4781)

Raellus 04-12-2015 03:42 PM

Central Europe, Winter of 2000-2001 Unit Map
 
I think it is finally finished. I've mapped out every unit mentioned in Going Home and few more besides, all from canonical sources. Here it is:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...4.kXBtjwNlBkYY

I started this project ages ago- it's been so long, I can't remember why I began. Google maps has been updated several times since I started, limiting my options in terms of icon type and color. I couldn't figure out how to include a key for the unit marker colors so here's the system I used:

Blue: loyal U.S.
Purple: loyal German
Baby Blue: loyal British
Green: partisans or turncoats now loyal to NATO
Yellow: independent, marauders, or loyal warlords' armies
Violet: non-Soviet units loyal to the Warsaw Pact

Feedback is welcome. If I missed anything, please let me know. Please note that the descriptor text for many units, no matter how many times I reedit it, seems to reset itself so that some words merge. I don't know how to permanently fix this.

If any of you ever use this for anything T2K-related, the effort I put into it will be worth it.

Silent Hunter UK 04-16-2015 01:35 PM

Might be worth spelling out the abbreviations - not everyone knows that GMRD stands for Guards Motor Rifle Division.

Olefin 04-16-2015 05:01 PM

Great map - but you have to wonder why the US wrote off the XI Corp - from what I am seeing on that map they have a clear shot at getting into Germany - nothing between them and the NATO units at all - should be an easy retreat back home come the spring

kalos72 04-16-2015 05:30 PM

Seems like alot of US units are missing no?

Olefin 04-16-2015 06:09 PM

They seem to be there - this is after Going Home when most US units are now back in the States

kalos72 04-16-2015 06:47 PM

Ahhh gotcha! :)

Raellus 04-16-2015 07:40 PM

@Silent Hunter: That's a good suggestion. I'll add a glossary to the key.

@Kalos: I see that Olefin has already answered your question. Thanks, Olefin.

@Olefin: That's an excellent question and it's been discussed here on the forum at some length. There's not a lot to go on in canon, just the following:

The XI Corps was cut off from higher headquarters
after the Pact counteroffensive of July, and has remained
in its positions out of necessity rather than by choice. It has
been written off by USAEUR. The XI US Corps HQ staff is currently
wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland, along with the remnants
of the 50th US AD. As of the beginning of the adventure, word
of the evacuation has just arrived. Most of the Corps' personnel
will decide to remain in place rather than risk the journey
to Bremerhaven.


Going Home, p. 14


Consensus here seemed to be that the authors made a mistake, because no PACT units are shown on any canonical maps being between XI Corps and Bremerhaven. No one here could really come up with an explanation that dealt with the paradox with a high degree of plausibility and realism, and/or agreed with other forumites' sensibilities. As I see it, this leaves the "why" very much up to the discretion of the individual GM. In my T2KU, XI Corps remains behind by choice, due to political machinations between MilGov, CivGov, and the Polish Free Congress.

Olefin 04-16-2015 08:24 PM

Its one thing if the US forces had stayed and not evacuated - then you can see them as staying where they were as a bridgehead for further operations in Poland or perhaps a way for the Germans to try to reclaim that area of Poland which was their territory before their loss in WWII.

That could be an interesting way to look at it - i.e. they werent written off they stayed where they were till the Germans could move forces there in the spring to be able to reclaim that area for themselves.

Maybe as part of the Omega deal - i.e. you claim to have "written them off" so they dont try to leave - or we feed them false info to make them stay thinking it would be suicide to try to break thru huge Warsaw Pact forces when in reality there arent any. Then we move there in the spring or summer of 2001 and they can come home then - and in exchange we give you the oil and ships for the evacuation - and you give us tanks and armor so we can not only get to them but hold the ground once we are there

It does make some sense

Its either that or the rest of the Corps choose to hold their ground to give the 8th a fighting chance to get back to them and blast a corridor open when the time comes and then try to go back in a group

Still dont know how the 8th had enough fuel to end up where they did - not unless they lucked into some gas or diesel - thats a loooonnnggg way from the rest of the US forces to get there on ethanol and methanol

lordroel 04-17-2015 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 64191)
I think it is finally finished. I've mapped out every unit mentioned in Going Home and few more besides, all from canonical sources. Here it is:

Do not see any Netherlands unit in Germany or East Europe, where they all withdraw back to the Netherlands to fight the French-Belgian invasion.

Tombot 04-20-2015 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 64241)
Its one thing if the US forces had stayed and not evacuated - then you can see them as staying where they were as a bridgehead for further operations in Poland or perhaps a way for the Germans to try to reclaim that area of Poland which was their territory before their loss in WWII..."

l

The first part sounds convincing (for former-NATO as a whole), but the second not so much..
What kind of interest should the rest of germany have in that ? Do the few survivors really need to reclaim "soil in the east" ?
I think they´ll have enough to do amongst themselves (scrounging & securing their destroyed citys, etc.).

Olefin 04-21-2015 05:12 PM

Tom - I am looking at it from the perspective of the last offensive that NATO conducted that led to the destruction of the 5th

If you look at their reasoning (i.e. to control the areas in Poland around their seacoast and also a possible linkup with anti-Soviet forces in the Baltics) you could see that the area in question is also a big part of the area the Germans gave up at the end of WWII, including the area that used to be East Prussia.

And while they have more than enough to do at home (and I agree completely with you there) you could see reactionary elements within whats left of the German government and army wanting to restore a Greater Germany - look at how much the German Army has in Austria for instance - you would have to wonder if part of why they are there is to restore the Anschluss de facto (i.e. we are protecting you and keeping the Russians out and maybe you want to make that permanent)

and it may not even be the whole German Army thinkign it - could even be a piece of it wanting their own little empire to build for their very own and thinking using the Americans that are left behind is a great way to acheive it

Raellus 04-21-2015 06:05 PM

@Lordroi: I'll have to take another look but I don't remember any Dutch units in Going Home listed as being in Poland or eastern Germany c.2000. I'll also check the NATO Vehicle Guide. My map focusses on Germany's "Eastern Front". Some day, when I have some extra time, I'll see about adding any/all of the German, Dutch, French, and Belgian units (listed in Going Home) to the the border regions in the west.

@Tombot and Olefin: I think Olefin's ideas about at least some Germans having designs on "East Prussia" have some merit. Germany has historical ties to the region that go back to the Teutonic Knights in the late Middle Ages. More recently, much of Poland's Baltic coast was annexed by the Third Reich. Any remaining connections create the potential for some interesting political machinations between reactionary/expansionist factions of the German government, such as it is c.2000, and elements of XI Corps that remain in NW Poland after Omega. At the very least, it's a motive for wannabe German warlords in the area.

Olefin 04-21-2015 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 64309)
@Lordroi: I'll have to take another look but I don't remember any Dutch units in Going Home listed as being in Poland or eastern Germany c.2000. I'll also check the NATO Vehicle Guide. My map focusses on Germany's "Eastern Front". Some day, when I have some extra time, I'll see about adding any/all of the German, Dutch, French, and Belgian units (listed in Going Home) to the the border regions in the west.

@Tombot and Olefin: I think Olefin's ideas about at least some Germans having designs on "East Prussia" have some merit. Germany has historical ties to the region that go back to the Teutonic Knights in the late Middle Ages. More recently, much of Poland's Baltic coast was annexed by the Third Reich. Any remaining connections create the potential for some interesting political machinations between reactionary/expansionist factions of the German government, such as it is c.2000, and elements of XI Corps that remain in NW Poland after Omega. At the very least, it's a motive for wannabe German warlords in the area.

And it would definitely explain why they stayed put when it looks like its a wide open shot back to the German lines and home.

You wonder if they would have touched on this with further "Return to Europe" modules if they had kept going with new releases. It would defnitely make for good material for any campaign based on either returned players who get back to Europe somehow or players who "missed the boat" and are stranded in Europe either by choice or by fate.

'Oh you want to get home - well we have something we need you to do first" said by the German general who has historical roots in East Prussia and wants to see Germans in control of it again - and who did some behind the curtains political maneuvering to keep the XI Corps rigth where they could be of a lot of assistance in that goal- and who has a little mission for you and your guys who missed the boat and showed up in Bremerhaven in December or January

Targan 04-21-2015 07:35 PM

In canon Germany breaks up into a number of nation states after the Twilight War and isn't reunified for a century or two. The French skillfully play the German states off against each other.

Olefin 04-23-2015 10:39 AM

"In canon Germany breaks up into a number of nation states after the Twilight War and isn't reunified for a century or two. The French skillfully play the German states off against each other. "

That makes things even more likely that the Americans were left there to further the ambitions of a German Army commander possibly with territorial ambitions or that it was a German national ambition and after they took the area in 2001 that it broke away as the rest of German broke up.

Tombot 04-24-2015 06:25 AM

Targans Quote: "In canon Germany breaks up into a number of nation states after the Twilight War and isn't reunified for a century or two. The French skillfully play the German states off against each other. "

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 64361)
That makes things even more likely that the Americans were left there to further the ambitions of a German Army commander possibly with territorial ambitions or that it was a German national ambition and after they took the area in 2001 that it broke away as the rest of German broke up.


In Lordroels Wiki are some nice maps about - one - hypothetical outcome for germany after the war.
Historically, yeah.. there could be some mofos with ambitions towards the direction you pointed out. True. But a look on a map with a shattered territory like germany, after the 5th Divisions "last offensive" AND Op Omega...
Not so sure, if someone would manage that (which doesnt mean that no one would try).
But they have the "Freibruder-Bund" in Paderborn ("Arminius" seems to be one of those dreaming of a Germany like before WWII), which doesnt seem to be on good terms with the remains of the german military in Kiel.
There are dozens of spots with russian and polish military and marauders on the former eastern boder.
The (mighty in terms of military and industrial output) french destroyed/took the western (industrial) portion, which fell into anarchy...

In my book, the germans are not ABLE to venture out towards the east anymore, even with the hardware the americans and other evacuating NATO-armys left behind. They have to reunite a devastated land. And afterwards KEEP it together, or there would be no germany left to work with.
And if they have several tendencies of splinter-states as mentioned above, i ´ll think there commanders would be ill advised to start more clashes with their (likewise devasted) neighbouring countrys.

Olefin 04-24-2015 09:13 AM

It is an interesting idea though - and it does add to the fun in Silesia- imagine throwing in a German Army Corps trying to "take back what is rightfully Germany's" thrown into the mix now that the Russians are pulling out - and the Polish Army is in pretty bad shape itself -

while I have no idea if thats what the canon writers intended it is a heck of a basis for a campaign for those who want to stay in Europe

lordroel 04-24-2015 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombot (Post 64374)

In Lordroels Wiki are some nice maps about - one - hypothetical outcome for germany after the war.

Thank for finding it nice but the map i made is different then what is cannon as in cannon there should be the German states of Hannover, Bavaria, Westphalia, Saxony and Brandenburg. In my map there are Bavaria, Saxony, Baden-Württemberg, Westphalia and Hannover.

Here is my map you mention, still need to improve it somewhat.
http://alternate-netherlands-history...z-1830.svg.png

Tombot 04-24-2015 12:13 PM

Maybe a german commander (from the "right wing" of the Kiel-Staff) decides to pack and defect, after some secret negotiations with the few (and desperate) US-units left behind in poland ?
MAYBE someone with connections to Arminius right-wing-movement, after they got kicked in the nutts (and out of the german center?), and with ambitions nearing those of the markgraf of silesia ?

@lordroel: yeah, your wiki´s nice!

Webstral 04-27-2015 11:05 AM

Great work, Raellus! This is nice stuff. One can go many different directions from here. Thanks for doing the legwork to get this together.

Raellus 04-27-2015 07:54 PM

Thanks, Web.

pmulcahy11b 04-27-2015 10:07 PM

Is there any way to copy or download that map? The key doesn't capture very well, cutting off the part of the key not on the page at the time,

Raellus 04-27-2015 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b (Post 64418)
Is there any way to copy or download that map? The key doesn't capture very well, cutting off the part of the key not on the page at the time,

Unfortunately, no. At least, not that I know of. I've used the Microsoft clipping tool to cut, paste, and print portions of the map but I'll be the first to decry the inelegance of that system. There might be additional functionality that I'm not aware of. If anyone out there knows any useful tricks, please do let me know. Google Maps went through several updates while I was working on the map and things that I used to be able to do with it, like access ground-level photos posted by map users, I can no longer do. It's frustrating. I have no idea why that feature was done away with. For all I know, it's still available, but, since the interface has been tweaked, I can't find or access it. I'll make sure to post updates if/when I figure out how to do more with the software.

kato13 04-27-2015 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 64419)
Unfortunately, no. At least, not that I know of. I've used the Microsoft clipping tool to cut, paste, and print portions of the map but I'll be the first to decry the inelegance of that system. There might be additional functionality that I'm not aware of. If anyone out there knows any useful tricks, please do let me know. Google Maps went through several updates while I was working on the map and things that I used to be able to do with it, like access ground-level photos posted by map users, I can no longer do. It's frustrating. I have no idea why that feature was done away with. For all I know, it's still available, but, since the interface has been tweaked, I can't find or access it. I'll make sure to post updates if/when I figure out how to do more with the software.

The functions were not done away with the underlying code was changed (from version 2 to version 3). It broke most of my maps as well and I have not had the inclination to fix them. This is also why we recently saw updates in the Nuke Mapper.

I'll look for anything that might be useful as far as downloads go but if people want to use screen grabs I would recommend ScreenHunter Free i used it for all my screen caps.

If the program is running you hit f6 and then select an area and click. It makes a file and puts the image on your clipboard.

Raellus 04-28-2015 02:35 PM

@Kato: Thanks. I'll fiddle around with ithe map some more and see if I can't discover/unlock some additional features.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webstral (Post 64406)
Great work, Raellus! This is nice stuff. One can go many different directions from here. Thanks for doing the legwork to get this together.

You're welcome. It was mostly kind of fun to put together.

Making that map kind of changed my thoughts on the war past 2000. Looking at the unit placements and statuses strongly suggests that, by the winter of 2000-2001, the war is, for all intents and purposes, over. Many Soviet units are listed as refusing orders from higher HQ. A few are described as simply waiting out the winter in Poland before returning home in the spring. A couple of the Red Army Corps and Army HQs are no longer in communication with their constituent units. There's open fighting between Polish and Soviet units near Kalisz. Several powerful Polish Army units have declared for the Polish Free Congress. Many others have gone the route of the Krakow garrison and transformed into purely local defense forces. Aside from a couple of wannabe warlords and the U.S. XI Corps, most American units are on their way home. Germany's got bigger fish to fry in the west.

When I state that the war is over, I want to be clear that by "war" I mean the convential/nuclear armed conflict between prewar nation-states c.1996-late 2000. It's also quite clear that fighting will continue for some time, as various entities vie for the scraps of central Europe. Some regions look to be particularly prone to continuing/continual spasms of violence. With no functioning central government, municipalities and whole regions must fend for themselves. It's a really fertile environment for all kinds of struggles and intrigues. In many cases, its every hamlet, village, town, city, and province for itself. I've really enjoyed exploring this setting in my own long-running PbP. It's a great time/place to experiment with different kinds of social, eeconomic and political systems.

Olefin 04-28-2015 08:54 PM

I am thinking much the same that you are Raellus as to the war continuing in Europe as it has been at least in the central part of Europe.

You still have the CivGov units in the Balkans and the desire of the Yugoslavs and the Romanians to push out what is left of the Soviets there but in Germany and Austria itself about the only things that are left are possibly the Germans helping to push whats left of the Soviets out of Austria and a German push to reoccupy the areas of East Germany, possibly in conjunction with an effort to link up with the Americans in Poland and help them get home.

And while the Germans do have business in the west with the French they may also want to take advantage of the power vacuum in northwestern Poland as well to correct the land they lost in 1945 - either organized and official efforts undertaken by some part of what is left of the German government or as a warlord effort by a faction of the German Army.

I don't see the Soviets doing much else in central Europe besides abandoning ship and going home. Especially if more Polish units decide that it might be time to finally settle accounts with the Soviets now that any chance of a large scale NATO push is over.

Raellus 04-28-2015 11:00 PM

There are lots of possibilities, and that's why this particular event horizon in the T2KU offers so much potential to GMs.

Here's a thought. I just came up with this and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

What if the U.S. left Eastern-Europe to stick it to the French?

Hear me out. The U.S. doesn't need any more enemies, but French ascendency in Europe is a threat to the old order, of which the U.S.A. still sees itself as lynchpin. If Germany switches its focus from defeating the Soviet Forces to its east to ejecting the French from German territory in the west, and the U.S. retains strong formations in or close to German soil, the Americans will, to French minds, be complicit in that aggression. If, however, the U.S. stabilizes Germany's eastern front and then leaves, Germany will be able to turn its military west and, without a major American military presence in Central Europe, the French have been little cause to take offense at the U.S.A.

Canon strongly implies (it might outright say it, but I can't easily find a supporting reference) that the Red Army shot its bolt during the Summer counteroffensive and is, for all intents and purposes, punched out. NATO would be aware of this come early Autumn.

The Polish Free Congress, ostensibly allied with NATO, or factions thereof, is a buffer in NW Poland. The U.S. XI Corps is still there as well. In my T2KU, it's closely allied with the PFC- both are within close proximity to one another. In my T2KU, XI Corps' abandonment during OMEGA leads to its command pledging allegiance to CIVGOV (it's a cart and horse thing- perhaps ties to CIVGOV caused it to be left behind by the MILGOV-sponsored evacuation). The British still have strong, well-organized forces in central Germany. Anyway, my point is that eastern Germany is no longer really threatened by Soviet forces. Yes, there are marauders of various ilk lurking about there, but no large, well-equipped threats w/ ties to any still-hostile national government.

It's a win-win for all involved. Germany get to shut it's back door (the east), and both gains American war material and loses hungry American mouths. The U.S. gets the troops it needs to eject foreign military forces from its own home soil. Poland gets some space to regain some semblance of at least regional independence. And Germany and the U.S. both get to stick it to France, while the latter can absolve itself from blame.

East Germany c.1997 would be no peach. We all saw what an economic drain it was on reunified Germany IRL. Why would the German national government waste its precious remaining military assets there when French forces occupy its industrial heartland. The former East Germany is still catching up to the old FGR. The Ruhr and the Rhineland, on the other hand, are both industrial powerhouses- a much richer prize for whatever passes for a national German government. Once the west is back under German control, it can turns its eyes east again.

I totally agree that some zealous Prussian warlord might make it his mission to regain East Prussia for Greater Germany, but I don't see a lot of practical reasons for the German national government, such as it is c.2000-2001 to want to do so.

That said, the creators of T2K, especially with Going Home, really give each GM carte blanche to write the script for Europe after Christmas 2000. That's the beauty of T2K. That said, I kind of wonder why they went and wrote themselves into a bit of a corner with the T2300 stuff, which sounds awful (I should say that because I haven't read any of it first hand. Based on what I've read second hand here, though, I wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole).

Olefin 04-28-2015 11:30 PM

Be interesting if Frank Frey would come back on the board again - love to ask him why there aren't any Soviet units between the XI Corps and the German border -and also why there is almost no units of any type in East Germany - its like the country was abandoned by both sides

I never really looked at the map before - had this image of the XI Corps surrounded by hostile forces - but really with the exception of what is left of the 5th, the one cav troop in southern Poland and the 8th they are pretty much wide open to going back.

And I don't see what is left of the Poles wanting to get into a big fight to eject them - especially since there aren't any German units left with them.

It looks like the Soviets may have been deep into East Germany and then after they got stopped started to withdraw to the east - and the XI Corps doesnt know the road is wide open

Rainbow Six 04-29-2015 03:49 AM

I think the subject has come up a few times before, but by and large I’ve always thought that Franco German conflict is a largely overlooked aspect of T2K Europe with most of the attention focused on the French invasion of the Netherlands instead. To me, the idea of the German Government focusing its attention on the western part of the Germany rather than the east makes good sense.

John Farson 04-29-2015 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 64446)
Be interesting if Frank Frey would come back on the board again - love to ask him why there aren't any Soviet units between the XI Corps and the German border -and also why there is almost no units of any type in East Germany - its like the country was abandoned by both sides

Well, were it a total exchange scenario it could be explained with East Germany being such a nuked out wasteland that there would be no point in having troops there - of course, the same thing could be applied to the rest of Germany.

As it was a limited exchange, such an explanation is inapplicable here.


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