RPG Forums

RPG Forums (http://forum.juhlin.com/index.php)
-   Twilight 2000 Forum (http://forum.juhlin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3)
-   -   The ANZACs in T2k (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5759)

Raellus 08-12-2020 05:53 PM

Pitch Black
 
The focus of T2k is fixed squarely on the ground, but this may be of interest to our Aussie friends and/or aerial warfare enthusiasts.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...erial-wargames

-

StainlessSteelCynic 08-12-2020 07:46 PM

The Pitch Black exercises are sometimes co-ordinated with large scale Army exercises so that the various HQ elements can practice air-land operations.
I was in the land element of one such exercise in 1991 and it was quite a change from our normal infantry training environment to have mass air transport, recce, AEW&C aircraft, fighter, attack and aerial refuelling assets available (as friend and foe).

Raellus 08-12-2020 07:55 PM

Friends or Foes?
 
Of note to some of the earlier discussion in this thread, it's interesting/ironic/uncanny to see photos of the RAAF and Indonesian Air Force playing on the same team.

-

Legbreaker 08-12-2020 09:57 PM

Yes, there has been some military cooperation in the last few decades, a small fact which has made it quite challenging to explain the conflict between the two groups in T2k. Fortunately I suppose we had the independence of East Timor in the late 90's to use as a sort of template or what "could" have been. In that particular case however the Indo's went quietly (sort of) and there wasn't a global conflict keeping the attention of bigger players elsewhere.

StainlessSteelCynic 08-13-2020 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 84545)
Of note to some of the earlier discussion in this thread, it's interesting/ironic/uncanny to see photos of the RAAF and Indonesian Air Force playing on the same team.

-

Yes indeed. It was very interesting to see the lead photo of that article with F/A-18s and Su-27s flying together and NOT being the usual suspects, i.e. from the USA and Russia or Finland and Russia.

Olefin 11-05-2020 01:50 PM

Question for you Leg - does anyone think that the Soviets went after the Marsden Point Oil Refinery in New Zealand either with nukes or conventional weapons - it was built especially to provide the following for New Zealand - but most of what it processes comes from Australia -

around 85% all of the country’s jet fuel
around 67% of diesel
around 58% of all petrol
all fuel oil for ships

That refinery still being in business could keep the Australian Navy in business as to having fuel for whatever ships are still operational after their war with Indonesia

StainlessSteelCynic 11-05-2020 06:07 PM

Given that (as far as I remember), none of the books mention New Zealand in any significant manner, it would be up to the Referee to decide if such important parts of NZ's infrastructure are still operational.

Legbreaker 11-05-2020 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 85470)
Given that (as far as I remember), none of the books mention New Zealand in any significant manner, it would be up to the Referee to decide if such important parts of NZ's infrastructure are still operational.

Not even in passing.

In the grand scheme, Marsden Point is a very, very small player. Sure they supply the bulk of the countries fuel, but when you've got a population of only 3.8 million (comparable to just the state of Oklahoma, 1/3rd of Belgium, or 1/10th of Poland), that's not exactly much is it....

Then take away crude imports (which comprise 100% of the oil processed), as well as the inability to adequately repair (lack of parts from other countries) the refinery should there be damage, normal wear and tear, or even just the requirement to change systems to allow for a change in what oil is still available for processing, and NZ is already in a poor shape fuel wise.

Then we throw them into war, as well as an obligation to support several Pacific island nations....

Does Marsden Point NEED attacking? No, especially since "All local oil production is exported as the New Zealand refinery is not suited to processing it."
Experiments into refining locally sourced oil did not start until 2007 from a field that wasn't even discovered until 2003.

Could the refinery be adapted to use the limited amount of local oil? Sure, but it requires equipment and knowledge which aren't readily available in New Zealand, and after about the middle of 1997 (the absolute earliest a need to switch may be identified) will be impossible to source from elsewhere.

Can the refinery process the local oil without the equipment and knowledge?
Yes, but at a greatly reduced efficiency which will greatly effect output (even in peacetime it wasn't sufficient for the countries entire needs).

So what does this mean for the RAN? No fuel coming from NZ that's for sure! (ok, MAYBE an insignificant trickle for the attached NZ naval and ground forces...maybe.)

On a related note, the Oceanic War (as I'm starting to call the Indonesian invasion) is still ongoing in 2000. More low level and less intense, but fighting is still happening, particularly in the West and Gulf regions and to a lesser extent in Eastern Sepik and Madang.

Targan 11-06-2020 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 79841)
11/28 Battalion, RWAR, Infantry
Now if memory serves me correctly, Targan was 11/28 so he would be the one to ask because I"m working from second-hand info.
HQ, Support/admin/etc. & B Coy (I'm uncertain of this) - Irwin Barracks, Karakatta, Perth
A Coy: -
1st Platoon - Bunbury
2nd Platoon - Albany
3rd Platoon - Katanning
I think HQ A Coy was in Bunbury but again, I am not certain
C Coy: -
I don't know but a platoon sized unit was based in Rockingham and I think this might have been the core of C Coy.
D Coy: - Irwin Barracks
I am not certain of the setup with 11/28 because at that time, some Reserve Infantry units were being strengthened with one Regular Army company

? Field Ambulance (don't recall designation), was formerly at the Artillery Barracks in Fremantle but then moved to Irwin Barracks sometime in late-80s or early-90s.

Ummm... bloody hell, it's all such a long time ago!

To the best of my recollection, there was talk of 11/28 getting a Regular Army company when I was there in the early 90s, but I don't believe that had occurred by the mid-90s.

And I'm pretty sure the Field Ambulance unit was based at Karrakatta (Irwin Barracks) when I was there, but I don't remember the designation. 7th Field Ambulance?

Legbreaker 11-06-2020 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targan (Post 85474)
Ummm... bloody hell, it's all such a long time ago!

Tell me about it! It's a very different army to when we were in.

Olefin 11-06-2020 10:11 AM

The Korean Sourcebook is the first "official" mention of New Zealand as to any involvement in the war - even though its not canon frankly it should be - that is one place where I DO NOT agree with Marc Miller -

If you look there you have the 28th Anzuk Brigade that has two contingents from New Zealand

1st Battalion, Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment

Medical/Logistics personnel

By 2001 that Brigade has only 300 men left so at most probably 30-50 NZ survivors still in Korea

StainlessSteelCynic 11-06-2020 06:10 PM

I'm of the opinion that if New Zealand was able to keep the Marsden Point facility operating, they would be likely to keep most of its production for New Zealand or at least as a trade commodity. However, as we know, a large percentage of the material processed at Marsden Point was imported from Singapore, Australia etc. etc. so that means they probably haven't got much to trade with anyway.

Given that New Zealand imported a lot of items necessary for any modern First World/Western country (and not just crude oil), the Twilight War is going to leave them in the same sort of crap that Australia is in. However for New Zealand it would probably be worse because they are a small nation with a small population and it's unlikely anyone with the shipping capacity (aside from Australia) is going to risk sending ships for what would be a very minor trading profit.

I think further discussion is likely to get more in depth about New Zealand without a focus on the military side of things so it probably warrants a thread of its own.

Legbreaker 11-06-2020 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 85481)
I think further discussion is likely to get more in depth about New Zealand without a focus on the military side of things so it probably warrants a thread of its own.

I'm happy to keep that discussion here - it is absolutely relevant to the ANZACs (at it's core really) and certainly relevant to the book (definitely leaning towards the title covering Oceania more than just Australia/New Zealand).

Ewan 11-07-2020 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 85483)
I'm happy to keep that discussion here - it is absolutely relevant to the ANZACs (at it's core really) and certainly relevant to the book (definitely leaning towards the title covering Oceania more than just Australia/New Zealand).

Any idea when the book will see light of day. Thanks

StainlessSteelCynic 11-07-2020 05:34 PM

I think Leg had something ready for final drafts but then the talk of 4th Ed. came along and disrupted everything.
I gather that it's a hell of a juggling act trying to keep a sourcebook compatible across editions and it I reckon Leg is probably waiting to see what 4th edition does to Australia before he decides on the final version. He had said earlier that it would be compatible across 1st and 2nd editions but then 4th came along so (without going back to read this thread) I think he said it would be compatible with 4th but obviously we have to wait for 4th to drop before we find out what they did to the Oceania region.

Legbreaker 11-07-2020 09:18 PM

Yes, it was supposed to be 1st, 2nd, 4th ed compatible and probably still will be. It has indeed been delayed because of 4th for reasons I'm sure will become clear in the coming months.
When will it be published? I really can't say at the moment - it's very much dependant on external events out of my control.
Meanwhile, keep throwing ideas and information at me. Always room for more input.

Louied 11-08-2020 11:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Adf 2002-2003........

Louied 11-08-2020 11:04 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Some more Files I have........

Louied 11-08-2020 11:06 AM

3 Attachment(s)
New Zealand (I have posted this before in another thread)........

Louied 11-08-2020 11:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Royal Australian Artillery........

Legbreaker 11-08-2020 11:55 PM

All useful information, even if a little too modern for my needs (there was a fair bit of reorganisation between the mid 90's and the date of these docs).
Thanks.

Olefin 11-09-2020 12:06 PM

FYI there will be information on American Samoa and Oceania (at least in the area around them) in the next issue of the fanzine which has been delayed by multiple personal and business (as in where I work) issues

Raellus 12-03-2020 03:13 PM

Dogfight!
 
This might be of interest here:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ver-east-timor

-

Legbreaker 12-03-2020 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 85981)

Thank you for that. While I wasn't specifically aware of this particular incident, I do have information on a number of other, similar ones. There was a real risk shit could have turned sour, something I personally believe certain elements within Indonesia were hoping for. Fortunately the Australians (and those nations present at the time) kept their cool.
The region could well be a different place today if they hadn't.

Targan 12-04-2020 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 85986)
Thank you for that. While I wasn't specifically aware of this particular incident, I do have information on a number of other, similar ones. There was a real risk shit could have turned sour, something I personally believe certain elements within Indonesia were hoping for. Fortunately the Australians (and those nations present at the time) kept their cool.
The region could well be a different place today if they hadn't.

We would have flogged them, and frankly they had it coming.

Legbreaker 12-04-2020 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targan (Post 86015)
We would have flogged them, and frankly they had it coming.

We would have for the first week.
Right up until our logistics system shattered under the strain. It barely coped as it was with a simple peace keeping mission.

pmulcahy11b 12-04-2020 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus (Post 85981)

I'm sorry, but Henri's account smells like BS to me.

StainlessSteelCynic 12-04-2020 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b (Post 86048)
I'm sorry, but Henri's account smells like BS to me.

Can you elaborate on why you think he's full if it?
It came across as reasonably plausible so I'm very curious as to how other people perceive it.

For some context, I know of somewhat similar incidents. One of my neighbours and I got along very well because we had many similar interest including time in the Australian military. His son was in the RAN and was on one of the ships serving in the Australian mission so while East Timor was going on, we discussed it pretty much every time we saw each other in the street.
His son relayed a few accounts about encounters with the Indonesians.

Apparently one Indonesian sub was tasked with keeping an eye on the Australian navy in the area and was trying to shadow our ships every time they moved into or out of the area. The Indon sub was detected relatively easily given the situation but it was persistent and tried to be sneaky when following Aussie ships.

Now, that's not as dramatic as an "almost dogfight" between the two air forces but it does show that while the Indons claimed to be withdrawing, the committed a large number of military assets to the area.
It was public knowledge here in Australia for several decades (from the 1970s on) that the Indon government did not like us and resented out presences in the region. Some people felt that the Indons were itching for a fight and whether that's true or not, they certainly did try some provocative acts (although they never quite crossed the line) through the decades.

pmulcahy11b 12-04-2020 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 86061)
Can you elaborate on why you think he's full if it?

I know this going to sound like a cop-out, but it's a gut feeling.

Legbreaker 12-04-2020 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b (Post 86073)
I know this going to sound like a cop-out, but it's a gut feeling.

I actually got a similar feeling. Henri comes across as trying to paint himself as more heroic than he really is.

Raellus 12-06-2020 03:42 PM

Upgrade?
 
Not really T2k-related, but since we're talking about the Indonesian AF...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...e-fighter-jets

-

StainlessSteelCynic 12-06-2020 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legbreaker (Post 86082)
I actually got a similar feeling. Henri comes across as trying to paint himself as more heroic than he really is.

This actually seems to be a bit of a common thing with Indonesian military types talking about Australia. It's been known for decades that elements of the Indonesian government and military view Australia as an impediment to their domination of the region and they have portrayed us as the local bully and/or lapdog of imperialism/colonialism/whatever-ism.

I get the feeling that boasting about how they "stood up to the Australians" is part of the military mindset - it's certainly been played upon by their politicians in the past. Rereading the linked article with Paul's and Leg's misgivings in mind definitely makes me think that Henri is at the very least boasting (to enhance his prestige?)

Legbreaker 12-06-2020 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 86148)
... Henri is at the very least boasting (to enhance his prestige?)

Almost certainly I would think. There may be some truth to his claims, but most likely he's....enhanced his role somewhat...

Meanwhile... https://en.antaranews.com/news/15838...nse-capability


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.