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-   -   Flamethrowers 1st Fill (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5988)

nuke11 08-12-2019 05:23 PM

Flamethrowers 1st Fill
 
A flamethrower is included in all editions of TMP, but no where does it say where the players are to get there first fill of fuel from?

Every other weapon has ample supplies of ammunition, but no where does it say how the PC's get there supplies from.

RandyT0001 08-12-2019 09:06 PM

"Methane comes from pig shit."

Gelrir 08-13-2019 10:11 PM

For the M9A1-7, it's not just having a jerry can of thickened fuel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=z6...hrower&f=false

You'll need fuel and thickener, an air compressor, a source of compressed nitrogen, along with various gauges, hoses and couplings. A single commercial cylinder of nitrogen at 1,800 psi can pressurize the pressure tank on an M9A1-7 flamethrower twice (the weapon's tank should be at 1,700 psi minimum when ready to use). The commercial cylinder is attached to the weapon pressure tank by the "filling line assembly", in essence a rubber hose with gage and valves, along with safety plugs, etc.

Then comes the process of putting fuel in the flamethrower's two fuel tanks.

Preparation for Fuel Filling from 5 Gallon Gasoline Cans.

Connect the 5 gallon gasoline can to a pressure source (a compressor, for example) as follows:
  • Replace the cap on the 5 gallon gasoline can with a fuel transfer cap
  • Screw the tube reducer 3 into one end of the 8 foot rubber hose
  • Screw the quick disconnect coupling half into the tube reducer.
  • Connect the quick disconnect coupling half to the male coupling half on the fuel transfer cap
  • Connect the other end of the 8 foot rubber hose to the pressure regulator
  • Screw the tube reducer into the fitting of the pressure regulator
  • Screw the check valve into the tube reducer
  • Connect the valve assembly of the 6 foot rubber hose to the check valve
  • Connect the assembled line to a the AN-M4 compressor: Connect the charging hose assembly to the 6 foot rubber hose; Connect the quick disconnect coupling end of the charging hose to the male coupling on the compressor.
Filling Portable Flamethrower from 5-Gallon Gasoline Cans
  • Remove the filling plugs from the fuel tank filling holes. Install the fuel transfer cap into a 5 gallon gasoline can of fuel and connect the cap to a pressure source. Invert the 5 gallon gasoline can and insert the fuel outlet pipe of the fuel transfer cap in the fuel tank filling hole
  • Set the pressure regulator at zero pressure by turning the adjusting screw counterclockwise
  • Supply air to the pressure line (by starting the air compressor
  • Increase the air pressure delivered by the pressure regulator by slowly turning the adjusting screw clockwise until the pressure gage reads between 3 and 5 psi
  • Observe the fuel level in the tanks through the filling holes. Both tanks must be filled to within approximately 2 inches of the top thus leaving the proper void. As soon as the fuel reaches this level stop fuel flow by tilting the gasoline drum down.

Then you need M1 ignition cylinders: each contains five incendiary igniter charges. Each igniter burns for 8 to 12 seconds, to ignite the fuel as it is discharged from the flame gun.

For a far less safe and effective system, you could use 1800 psi air (regular atmosphere, that is) instead of nitrogen. You could use regular gasoline instead of thickened fuel.

You could volunteer for a safer job!

"Have fun and flame on!"

--
Michael B.

mmartin798 08-14-2019 12:55 PM

None of that complexity would prevent the use of a flamethrower. The refilling cart and a PSA nitrogen generator could be supplied to allow for refilling. In a military study I found, gasoline can be stored indefinitely if proper procedures are used to keep it from oxidizing. So a drum of gasoline, a thickening agent and the refilling rig are all possible to store. The issue is the size of all this and the kind of team that would be able to utilize a flamethrower. It seems to not fit a Recon team very well. MARS and maybe a Science team could justify it, but again the refill cart is still pretty big to drag around everywhere all the time.

Gelrir 08-14-2019 03:17 PM

Yeah, it's not something for a Recon team, at all.

I'd be interested if you could provide a link to the study reporting "gasoline can be stored indefinitely if proper procedures are used to keep it from oxidizing". That would be very interesting for planning other groups in the campaign, such as the Frozen Chosen, etc.

For example, is that stored as fuel for motor vehicles, or "just" useful for a flamethrower? I imagine that removing ethanol would extend storage life (av gas, racing fuel and boat fuel are alcohol-free); adding naptha and other lightweight hydrocarbons might also help (that's how "Sea Foam" fuel treatment works). Storing in a cool location is a definite requirement.

Not all of the "stale" fuel problems are oxidation; there are other decomposition issues. No commercial "fuel stabilizer" I'm aware of guarantees stability for decades, let alone 150 years.

--
Michael B.

nuke11 08-14-2019 03:40 PM

I'm in the process of providing complete specs for the M9A1-7 unit, compressor to the weight of the M1/M4 powdered thickeners. The only thing I haven't been able to find is the weight for an M1 Ignition Cartridge. I found how much a create of 100 of them is, but a single unit.

I have an idea where the team gets it's nitrogen supply from as well.

I to would be interested in that study of long term fuel storage.

Gelrir 08-14-2019 05:53 PM

Yeah, the info on the "m1 ignition cylinder" FSN 1375-219-8583 is scanty. I suppose if you know the weight of 100 in a package, you can presume that 90% of the package weight is the actual igniters, and just divide it by 100.

The Project has HAFLA-35 and M202A1 "Flash" launchers for most of their fire-setting needs.

--
Michael B.

nuke11 08-14-2019 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 82083)
Yeah, the info on the "m1 ignition cylinder" FSN 1375-219-8583 is scanty. I suppose if you know the weight of 100 in a package, you can presume that 90% of the package weight is the actual igniters, and just divide it by 100.

The Project has HAFLA-35 and M202A1 "Flash" launchers for most of their fire-setting needs.

--
Michael B.

I'll give that a try.

I do know they come in a red tin can of 2 cylinders and to open the can you use a "key" similar to a can of spam/c-ration and roll the top off and the 2 cylinders slide out along with a couple of seals used to protect the cyclinders in the can.

mmartin798 08-14-2019 09:58 PM

Here is a link to that fuel study:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Granted, the scope of the research was for 5-year storage with no special considerations. The report does indicate that even unstable gasoline could be stored in an oxygen-free indefinitely. They back this up with a statement that showed at least 7-years of life. But the study does not indicate an upper bound to the gasoline shelf life, even though I agree 150 years would be quite the stretch.

Gelrir 08-14-2019 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmartin798 (Post 82085)

Great find, mmartin798 !

I suspect that for flamethrower usage, the Morrow Project could come up with a fuel lasting at least 25 years (long enough for a team to be placed, frozen, and woken up a few years after the Atomic War). An M9A1-7 doesn't need to worry about tiny fuel injectors, pump lubrication, etc.

However, the Project doesn't know about the 150-year stretch ahead; presumably a person with a flamethrower will wake up, look in their fuel can or barrel and frown at the hard lacquer that remains.

Unless your campaign uses time-stopping or some other Advanced Science to prevent fuel, rubber, medicines, ammunition, etc. from going "bad".


--
Michael B.

Gelrir 08-15-2019 11:38 PM

from FM 3-8, Chemical Reference Handbook, pub. January 1967.
  • item: Ignition cylinder flamethrower M1
  • units per container: 100
  • wooden box
  • gross weight: 54 lbs.
  • cubic feet: 1.2
  • package dimensions: 16" x 14-1/4" x 9-1/2"
  • number as packed per 2-1/2 ton truck: 9,000

The cylinders come two to a small metal can, so they each weigh about 0.22 kilograms (0.5 kg for the can with two cylinders) ... at a guess.

--
Michael B.

nuke11 08-16-2019 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 82090)
from FM 3-8, Chemical Reference Handbook, pub. January 1967.
  • item: Ignition cylinder flamethrower M1
  • units per container: 100
  • wooden box
  • gross weight: 54 lbs.
  • cubic feet: 1.2
  • package dimensions: 16" x 14-1/4" x 9-1/2"
  • number as packed per 2-1/2 ton truck: 9,000

The cylinders come two to a small metal can, so they each weigh about 0.22 kilograms (0.5 kg for the can with two cylinders) ... at a guess.

--
Michael B.

Thank you, that does help greatly

mmartin798 08-16-2019 03:38 PM

I did some more searching and found that modern flamethrowers used for controlled burns very often use an 80/20 diesel/gasoline mixture. Since biodiesel is not that difficult to produce given the ability to press oil from seeds and produce some methanol, all you need to do is find some crude to crack or some other source of lightweight hydrocarbons to make the gasoline to keep on flaming your enemies. You might have a problem with running out of ignitors. Maybe go with a DIY engineered spark ignitor or some kind of pilot flame that you can trigger to a jet to ignite the fuel.


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