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Canadian Army 10-08-2008 07:32 PM

Internment Camps
 
Recently I have been read about the McCarran Internal Security Act/Subversive Activities Control Act that was pasted in 1950.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarra...l_Security_Act

The Act was a United States federal law that required the registration of Communist organizations with the United States Attorney General and established the Subversive Activities Control Board to investigate persons suspected of engaging in subversive activities or otherwise promoting the establishment of a "totalitarian dictatorship," fascist or communist. The Law also prevented the members of these groups from become citizens, and in some cases, were prevented from entering or leaving the country. The Act was a key institution in the era of the Cold War, tightening alien exclusion and deportation laws and allowing for the detention of dangerous, disloyal, or subversive persons in times of war or "internal security emergency". Congress repealed the registration requirements of the law in 1968 as a result of a number of decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court that declared certain aspects of the law unconstitutional, but some portions remain intact.

During World War II thousands of Japanese, Germans, and Italians were rounded up and interned as Enemies of the State, by the US, Canadians, and the British. It makes sense that during World War III the US/NATO would reinstate the their internment laws and round up and intern; all people with questionable alliances, ie Communist Party members. There is also a good chance that member of other fantic organzations, such as the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), American Nazi Party, Black Panther Party would probable interned too.

kato13 10-08-2008 07:37 PM

Pre or post Thanksgiving day massacre?

IMO It would be no to pre and yes to post.

copeab 10-08-2008 07:39 PM

After the nuclear strikes, I frankly don't think there would be enough command structure left for any organized, dedicated effort. Local military/civilian leaders might do something, but I don't see anything significant nationally.

Matt Wiser 10-08-2008 08:02 PM

I'd bet that folks like Ramsey Clark in the U.S. or George "Saddam was my friend" Galloway in the U.K. would find themselves behind bars once the U.S. and British enter the war. I've read that Galloway has been quoted as saying that he cried when the Red Flag with the Hammer and Sickle was lowered for the last time in 1991, so you can bet that he'd be arrested by the Brits. Clark, a former Attorney General (under LBJ) has been running around with a bunch of neo-Stalinists called the Workers' World Party, who run his "International Action Center" (more like a WWP front). Once the U.S. is fully involved, the FBI would show up to hustle him and his buddies off to the slammer.

Raellus 10-08-2008 08:29 PM

I can see known communists being interned. It wouldn't require that much manpower to run a couple of internment camps for suspected enemies of democracy (and capitalism).

I don't think other members of unafiliated groups like the Klan or the Black Panthers being interned- not unless they showed support for the Soviets and their allies, which is a possibility in the latter case (solidarity between the oppressed American underclass and the workers of the world). As far as I know, the Klan was left alone during WWII. Besides, they're pretty staunchly anti-communist, aren't they?

jester 10-08-2008 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raellus
I can see known communists being interned. It wouldn't require that much manpower to run a couple of internment camps for suspected enemies of democracy (and capitalism).

I don't think other members of unafiliated groups like the Klan or the Black Panthers being interned- not unless they showed support for the Soviets and their allies, which is a possibility in the latter case (solidarity between the oppressed American underclass and the workers of the world). As far as I know, the Klan was left alone during WWII. Besides, they're pretty staunchly anti-communist, aren't they?


They are pretty staunchly against everything! And they did and probably still do run alot of small remote communities.

As for those who would be pro communist, I really wonder if they would survive the days after an attack. They would probably be an immediate target by the populace in their communities, unless the community was of their ilk. Otherwise they would be something to strike at localy by the people who would have rage. And in part they would be part of the problem, since it was the folks these procommies and such would have supported who nuked us. Thus, they may end up getting shot, lynched, beaten to a pulp or within an inch of their lives, or maybe an old fashioned treatment, taring and feathering.

Think, in the T2K world would someone who had once been an advocate of the Russians and maybe still had those sympathies or preached them or associated with such sympathies, how welcome would they be in any community? I could see them being at the very least forced out, either told to go, or a molotov cocktail tossed through their window as an encoruagement to get out.

A few probably would find themselves in a jail here and there, but as with a concentration camp or a small and local jail, you have to feed, house and care for them. And could a communitee aford that?

And could the government afford to maintain a concentration camp, which would include, space, food, facilities, guards, transportation of them to a few central areas. Unless they have them on work parties or chain gangs, I wonder what the point of having a concentration camp or jail would be? Its a matter of resources and they won't have them, so they either get put to work, or executed or warned and let go. I can see people being sentanced to days hard labor as a fine, much like they are required to do community service today. But, on real work details, like a lumber or brick or ruble clearing or road repair detail. Or, we can bring back putting prisoners to working in mines which wouldn't be a bad idea.

headquarters 10-09-2008 12:49 AM

politics -ethnicity
 
Political organizations that are in opposition would more likely than not be subjected to mass arrest etc in a time like the end of days described in T2K canon .The number of actual communists in the US in the 1990s would be just high enough to ensure that a couple of hundred feds would have a safe job for a few years still..But in such a frenzied atmosphere hysteria and ruthless opportunism would mean that all sorts of political organizations would be scrutinized and many would be classified disloyal that really have nothing to do with Moscow .McCarthism all over again -but this time the McCArthies would have powerful arguments like actual ruins and bodycounts to make their lunacy stretch out and last longer .

All the people have origins in the enemy nations-that would be the heavy stuff .There are millions of immigrants 1,2,3 generation that hail from one or the other of the countries on the other side .Sure they would protest loyalty,but having a Russian,Polish,Ukranian etc last name surely would be something of a disadvantage in times like those .

The confrontation between Latin America and the US as described in the books would also be a troublesome and disturbing chapter in the civilian populations chapter of the war .

As for the camps - I for one do not believe that such programs or indeed any programs would be started.The radiation ,hunger,cold and disease would be the only enemies left to fight-bar the occasional marauder/desperate refugee out to take what you have.

Mohoender 10-09-2008 01:22 AM

I also doubt that the state would start a camp program. However, in T2K, New America has many of them but their are turned against U.S. citizens. I like that idea better. What happens with the Robotniki in Silesia (Poland) is also similar

Targan 10-09-2008 01:41 AM

There were many cases in WWII of Japanese-Americans faithfully serving in the US Army while their parents and other family members were held in internment camps. Nasty situation. Very, very sad.

Mohoender 10-09-2008 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targan
There were many cases in WWII of Japanese-Americans faithfully serving in the US Army while their parents and other family members were held in internment camps. Nasty situation. Very, very sad.

Very true. As I know U.S. Japanese were fighting in Italy and they fought more than bravely.

jester 10-09-2008 05:47 AM

Yes the 100th and 442nd Combat Teams fought in Italy, France and Germany with some smaller groups fighting in the Pacific. And the 442nd had more awards and decorations than any other in US history as well as almost a 200% casualty rate.

And the Supreme Court Violated the Constitution when it came to the internment. Frenzy, hysteria and oportunism.

However, the internment was temporary. After about 1943 the internees were given the option to relocated to the Midwest and East Coast, however a bitter pill was they also had to sign a loyalty oath which many saw and I agree, insulting. There is alot of misinformation on both sides about that issue. And we did intern Germans and Italians as well.

One thing to remember, in the 1920s they had a influx of immigrants from Asia, which had gone back to the late 19th century. So, we the US passed what was called "Yellow Laws" which were geared to prevent immigration and assimilation into society by denying immigrants the ability to gain citizenship. Thus, they could easily be deemed "enemy aliens" which gave a grounds for internment, just as we did with Gemran and Italian aliens, since they were citizens of hostile powers.

Mohoender 10-09-2008 05:50 AM

I didn't know about German and Italians. I didn't know also about the small groups in the Pacific. Thanks.

jester 10-09-2008 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohoender
I didn't know about German and Italians. I didn't know also about the small groups in the Pacific. Thanks.


Well its pretty standard to round up all persons who are from the country you are at war with.

As for Americans of Japanese desent in the Pacific, yes we had a few working in Intel, and as what would be called Phsy Ops today. They used them on Guam, Saipan, Tinian and Guam if I recall correctly.

As for the Germans and Italians. Well we did have a few German Sabatuers who were caught and imprisoned or executed, as well as some others who did get interned.

Remember the German American Bund had a considerable following. I recall they even had a rally at Madison Square Gardens to a near sell out crowd. And a good number of them did return to Germany to fight for them when they started doing the 1940 European tour.

revaddict 10-09-2008 07:37 AM

An excellent book to read in this regard is In Defense of Internment by Michelle Malkin.

She shows that based on what was known at the time there were real security threats from Japanese American citizen groups within the US. It was not just racial paranoia; people really were out to sabotage us.

Furthermore she shows that, contrary to the popular image, internment was not a simple matter of rounding up Japanese Americans at gunpoint and herding them into concentration camps as the Nazis did with their victims. The comparison between American internment camps and Nazi concentration camps is often made, but there is no similarity upon closer examination.

kato13 10-09-2008 10:29 AM

There was actionable intelligence against Japanese Agents living on the west coast. Unfortunately most of that intelligence came from the the decrypted Japanese diplomatic traffic. Picking up the individual agents would have led to suspicion about the security of the diplomatic code.

As with many cases in WWII, code breaking led to a difficult choice. In this case someone thought that Internment seemed like an elegant solution to the problem. Was it fair? Certainly not. Was it necessary? In hindsight probably not. But like so many decisions made during a war, I am glad it was not mine to make.

Grimace 10-09-2008 06:48 PM

If the nukes hadn't flown in Twilight, I could very easily see camps like this popping up. There may have been talk of them, in the Twilight world, and maybe some people were rounded up, but I doubt there was anything close to what we had in WW2. If anything, the moment the nukes started flying, the camps were probably abandoned by anyone guarding them and the people would have been left to do whatever they wanted or could do in a ravaged land.

In fact, it may have been some of those very "guarded communities" that New America used. And anything in Europe, save for France, that was like this would probably have been abandoned or overrun in the shifting battle lines that occurred.

TiggerCCW UK 10-10-2008 04:19 PM

They tried internement here during the early days of the troubles, and it backfired badly. Without solid up to date intel the wrong people get scooped up and the camps simply became a recruiting tool for the IRA.

Graebarde 12-08-2008 01:07 PM

Yes, the camps would tend to turn a loyal follower sour. And as for the US camps being better than the Nazi camps. Perhaps the conditions were better in the US camps in general, but the barbed wire fence and lack of freedom were the same. Also many of the US guards were not the fine friendly boys you would see in the propaganda.

Would there be camps post TDM? You bet'cha, but they wouild be refugee camps, and once you got in, it would be hell getting out IMO. And hell while you were in there. Think of the dome in NOLA after Katrina, 1000 time worse.

just my 2 cents
Grae

Brother in Arms 12-09-2008 02:16 PM

I think its possible that they could exist depending on the reason they people where being held and who was being held.

I think the idea of slave labor is much more likely though as jester mentioned all ready. In fact I suspect a lot of well established communities would have slave labor.

I think the U.S. could establish camps fairly easily, due to the fact that they have several "mock ups" of concentration camps and "training areas" that actually already exist! like the one at Redding ton naval airbase here in Maine where the USN conducts is cold weather training and sere school. I have seen it and thought it could be used for nefarious purposes instead of "training" it is extremely remote most people don't even know its there.





here is something to get your conspiratorial juices flowing:

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_d...p?q=1214512721

while the above information may be wrong or grossly misrepresented (for instance the German ww2 camp listed in Maine called Camp Houlton is now the site of the Houltan airport.) But its basically t2k information thats already made up for you! Why not use it?




Brother in Arms

pmulcahy11b 12-09-2008 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graebarde
Yes, the camps would tend to turn a loyal follower sour. And as for the US camps being better than the Nazi camps. Perhaps the conditions were better in the US camps in general, but the barbed wire fence and lack of freedom were the same. Also many of the US guards were not the fine friendly boys you would see in the propaganda.

just my 2 cents
Grae

There's an old saying: "A prison, no matter how well-appointed, is still a prison."

Graebarde 12-09-2008 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
There's an old saying: "A prison, no matter how well-appointed, is still a prison."

You have that right. I was asked why I didn't get a job at the prison (Huntsville TX.. FIVE prisons within the city limits).. because I don't like the clink of metal doors when I go to work, and having to ask someone to let me leave...

Grae

rcaf_777 12-09-2008 07:03 PM

I must agree with my borther (Canadian Army) there is a adventure about a Communist organization in Canada called Red Maple, It's a Challenger Article I have it some where?

Marc 12-10-2008 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graebarde
Yes, the camps would tend to turn a loyal follower sour. And as for the US camps being better than the Nazi camps. Perhaps the conditions were better in the US camps in general, but the barbed wire fence and lack of freedom were the same. Also many of the US guards were not the fine friendly boys you would see in the propaganda.

Would there be camps post TDM? You bet'cha, but they wouild be refugee camps, and once you got in, it would be hell getting out IMO. And hell while you were in there. Think of the dome in NOLA after Katrina, 1000 time worse.

just my 2 cents
Grae

My great-grandfather, having crossed with his daughter the Spanish-French border through the Pirennes at the end of the Spanish Civil War, was interned by the french authorities in a refugee camp in the south of France. They followed the steps of thousands of Spanish republicans that tried to escape from what they thought, a nearly secure execution at the hands of the Spanish Nationalist soldiers. And, as Grae said, it was a hell.

The french authorities were overwhelmed by a true tide of terrified refugees. 500.000 refugees crossed the border in three weeks.Perhaps our northern neighbours have not noticed the extraordinary level of hate that the conflict (by the two sides) had generated and they cannot anticipate the dimensions of the flow of people running away from the armies of Franco.
Perhaps it was some kind of paralysis caused by the calm-down politic towards the fascist powers in Europe (that was about to end abruptly in September of that same year, with Hitler's invasion of Poland).

But the fact is that the french refugee camps were, at the beginning, only a piece of terrain surrounded by a fence. In the case of my great-grandfather, he was interned in a camp located in a beach near Argelès-sur-Mer. Only fences, sand and sea water. It was in February. 80.000 refugees. You can imagine the rest. Epidemics, louses, starvation, cold... Neither accommodations nor materials to build them, no latrines, no kitchens... With four or five blankets it was possible to improvise a low shack using reeds (the only and scarce resource available). But it was a poor solution against the rain. Quoting a refugee, "El llit de cada home es l'emprenta que el seu cos deixa a la sorra", "the bed of each man was his own mark on the sand". Thanks to god, the conditions of the refugees camp were improved with time.

The conditions on the T2K would be still worse. Thinking about Europe, in most of the parts, a refugee camp would not have sense. We need a community with enough resources and goodwill to admit a substantial number of refugees (to form a camp) for humanitarian reasons, without receiving anything in exchange (at least at the first moment). I can see small numbers of refugees flowing from disputed or devastated zones to organized zones. But nothing similar to a refugee camp. Basically, for the same reason that refugee camps didn't exist in the Middle Age. Most pprobably, in the communities organized as military cantonments, the military units providing protection would block the way to any thing similar to a group of refugees. At the most, they will be allowed to go through the cantonment territory under the surveillance of an escorting force. And finally, a great and unprotected group of refugees will attract all kind of unpleasant people.

Targan 12-10-2008 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcaf_777
I must agree with my borther (Canadian Army) there is a adventure about a Communist organization in Canada called Red Maple, It's a Challenger Article I have it some where?

Its a good mini adventure. Matter of fact I like most of the T2K mini adventures in the Challenge Mags.

ChalkLine 12-11-2008 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revaddict
An excellent book to read in this regard is In Defense of Internment by Michelle Malkin.

No its not.
Michelle Malkin is not a good source, and her views are not just debunked, they're frightening. She is a right wing ideologue.

kato13 12-11-2008 02:57 PM

Straying too close to pure political talk. People here will have different opinions regarding politics and I hope we respect that.

ChalkLine 12-11-2008 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kato13
Straying too close to pure political talk. People here will have different opinions regarding politics and I hope we respect that.

Okay. But speaking as a historian, I consider her to be a poor source.

kato13 12-11-2008 03:07 PM

As long as anyone states it is an opinion, I am usually pretty cool with it. I personally don't feel any information should be completely devalued before it is read. Even if its source is questionable.

kato13 12-11-2008 03:45 PM

Communists != Subversives portion of this thread moved to "a bit of politics and history?" thread at Mohoender's request.

Webstral 05-13-2009 02:11 PM

Camps are in important part of the justification for the Second Mexican-American War. The official material doesn’t go into great detail about the events leading up to the start of the fighting in the American Southwest, but I think it is safe to say that post-Exchange America has little patience or charity for Mexican refugees. I have tried to address the issue a bit in Thunder Empire.

In early 1998, Mexican refugees do in fact flood across the lengthy US-Mexico border. By this point, Mexico has been hit by nukes, too. The Soviets hit the Mexican oil fields and refineries to keep Mexican oil out of American hands, then blame the Yankees for the attacks. In the wake of the nuclear attacks on Mexico, thing quickly get out of hand. Mexico being Mexico, grotesque corruption and racism coupled with the breakdown of the power grid and the distribution system compel masses of Mexicans to try their luck north of the border—even given how bad things are in the US.

Naturally, the Americans are far from accepting of the new arrivals. The majority of Mexican refugees cross into California and Texas. Violence ensues. In all of the border states, Mexican refugees (and some who are not) are rounded up and put into camps. Some camps are better than others. Notably, Huachuca has food reserves as a result of the DCP and FEMA, and Huachuca needs unskilled and semi-skilled labor. In southeastern Arizona, the Mexican refugee fare about as well as could be expected—which is to say that they live in tents with primitive sanitation and subsistence rations. Conditions in many parts of southern Texas and southern California are much worse. The refugees are constantly subjected to violence. A string of refugee massacres provides the Mexican government with a pretext for sending in the Mexican Army.

In truth, the Mexican government is looking for some way to divert the attention of the public. A foreign adventure seems to fit the bill nicely. The camps of Mexican refugees becomes a convenient excuse for war.


Webstral


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