Farms in T2k
 

Antenna

PS
Gonna tidy the file tomorrow after a good night sleep
DS



edit kato13 this is the best solution for information with spaces layouts

[code]Stuff with lots of spaces

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Farm Before WW3
 

Lets say that this farm has 26 ha large area and has with following mix of crops

26/4 ha as grassland : 461 * 3.50 kg =
9 ha Grasfield - 1654 * 3.50 kg = 57890 that would give 17 cows, 34 cattle, 2 steers

They would need 57200 kg Corn (as an example) as fodder from a field of 10 ha

Meat per Year : 22.7 * 17 + 99.5 * 34 + 2 * 33.2 = 3835 kg * 1.25 = 4974kg
Leather per year : 17 * 5.31 + 34 * 19.9 + 2 * 5.22 = 777.31 Sqre meter
Milk produced : 6/8 * 2000 * 17 * 1.25 = 31.875L
Maintence or Work(field) : 21.11 / (25 *2) = 25 min average per day
Maintence (beef weekly) : (17+34+2) * 1 = 53 h / 25 = 2 h 15 min per week
Maintence (beef daily) : 17 * 2 + (34 + 2) * 0.2 = 41.2 h / 25 = 1h + 40 min per day

All isn't just meat...

Potatoes to the meat
lets say that every meal counted as one meal per day has 1 kg meat and 1.5 kg potatoes.

7362 * 3.5 = 25767 per ha and we need for a balance on this 5348 *1.5

a field llarge as 0.31 ha of potaotes.

This would give us a normal daily food (2L milk, 1 kg meat, 1.5 kg potaotes)

4974 meals consisting of meat
4974 meals consisting of potatoes
9948 L of fluid to food

Can feed 13.6 men per year and the work per day as an average 2 h 25min
And we have farmed 25.81 ha

24929 L of milk to produce cream, cheese etc

Postwar farm TL 3
 

same farm as above.

26/4 = 6.5 grassland 461 * 0.9 * 6.5 = 414.9 kg
9 ha Grassfield 1654 * 0.9 * 9 = 1488.6 kg +414.9 = 16094 kg

16094 kg corn as fodder -> 9.85 ha

4 cows, 8 cattle, 2 steers

meat per year : (22.7 * 4 + 99.5 *8 + 33.2 *2 ) * 0.70 = 662.74 kg
leather per year : 5.31 * 4 + 19.9 * 8 + 5.22 * 2 = 190.88 Square meter
milk Per year : 8000 L

a normal meal per day : 0.5 kg meat, 2 kg potatoes, 2 L milk

1325 meals

Potatoes : 0.26 ha

this lot can feed 3.6 person per year with food

and uses 17.1 h per day of maintence for the fields
and uses 9.7 h per day as an average messure

Conclussion :

Prewar farm that can be handled by 1 person can be around 75 ha and can feed 40.8 men

Postwar farm can be handled by 6 persons with long days and be around 75 ha and can feed 10.8 men

Note postwar is at TL 3 that is around 1800 AD

Antenna

First let me say I LOVE the work here! Its the type of detail I couldnt dream of working up. :)

Secondly let me say that I guess we are all screwed because the ENTIRE island of Manhattan, all 6000HA worth turned farmland and I am only feeding 800 people! :(

6000 HA / 75 HA = 80 farms feeding 10 men each

DO NOT want to be negative at all about all this damn hard work but, are we sure those numbers are right?

I was using a fairly low number and figuring each acre could feed between 3-10 people....

It seems to me that the numbers don't quite add up. 1.5kgs of potatoes per person per day? Ok, I'm guessing that probably includes other vegetables as well.
Also, a simple backyard vegetable patch can feed a small family quite well - there's certainly no need for acres of land. Also, several crops can be grown on the same ground throughout the year.
Admittedly meat requires a bit more space than carrots and peas, but a single cow produces a LOT of useful protein beyond just beef (brains, tongue, liver, etc).
Waste plant material (what's left of the peas after havesting for example) could be fed to animals further increasing the yeild from the area. Waste animal product likewise can be used to fertilise plants, again increasing yeild for fairly minimal effort.

Oki, I used the worst case scenario when I made the Postwar farm around 1799 AD so you see that there would be hope that you might could side for a higher TL 4 to 6 depending on different areas of the world. TL 3 is preindustrialization

25 ha
TL 4 1900 AD - 6.8 hours per day to produce 5.2 meals per day
TL 5 1930 AD - 5.0 hours per day to produce 8.4 meals per day
TL 6 1950 AD - 3.2 hours per day to produce 13 meals per day

The farms is the same as before I just don't show the calculus here =)

Why time changes in this Statistical formulas, explanation is that level of mechanization get higher. A machine does instead what many men did before.
Why the yield gets higher, modern pesticides and newer crops from research stations.
Instead of pointing on a machine or pestecide the time won and higher yield is messured with Tech Levels

Antenna

Well, I didn't make a menu for the farms just one simple protein source and one veggie source.
Home gardening aint made by the same technology as My first example on postwar farm (1800 AD)

Antenna

If you use TL 5 Farm you would see that 6000 / 25 * 8.4 meals (2016 meals per day)

Also then it depends on what you have on your farm :)

Antenna

Antenna

Perhaps I am not understanding your calculations with this, I will reexamine in the AM.

But I THINK your saying that if I change my TL to 5, I can feed 2000 people with 6000 hectares or land. the entire island of Manhattan, NYC. Cannon has 100000 people living there... /gulp

First of all. The examples of farms that I presented here has cattle, cows and steers.

For NYC cannon you probably would just farm veggies etc.

A TL 5 potatoe farm would give a yield for a 25 ha farm 275,000 kg of potatoes
The thing with meat is that you loose energy to transform "veggies" to protein/meat the farms I made was made of 1-2% potatoes rest went to cattle etc

Antenna

Don't forget though that scavenging forms a large part of what's supporting those 100,000 people. Even several years after the war there's likely to be a lot of preserved food squirrelled away in kitchens, resturaunts, cafeterias, vending machines and a thousand other places. Scavenging is probably considered a respectable profession by many city dwellers.

It's also worth pointing out that you do not need to grow some vegetables in a traditional farm plot.
As was mentioned in a post some time back by I think Graebarde, you can grow potatoes in old tyres that have been filled with suitable soil and then stack them on top of each other. You don't have to have a field for cultivation, you can grow them in this manner on any piece of ground that is not suited to farming.
Some bean vines (and grape vines) can be encouraged to grow over any sort of trellis you set up with the potential to add some shade to an area if you have them climb up a suitable frame.
"Glasshouses" can be easily made from plastic pipe and plastic sheeting.

And fishing in the Hudson and East Rivers and nearby open water. Line fishing, netting, shellfish collection, even maybe small scale fish farming.

OK I was just using my stats as an example....no need to debate that here. :)

Lets take Norfolk as the 40000 US Troops arrived for example...how many hectares of land would MILGOV need to support them?

Very rough calculations... Please check

If you go by the standards of Ireland circa 1845, you can get about 6 tons of potatoes per acre (say 15 tons per hectare). That's UK tons - which is 'nearly' 1000kg

The average person needs 2.5 kg of food per day (very approximately). So let's assume that each hectare gives 6000 man-days of food.

To feed 40 000 for 1 year, you need 40 000 x 365 man-days of food = 14.6 million man-days

Therefore, you need 2 500 hectares = 25 square kilometres = You need a fertile space about 5 kilometres by 5 kilometres

Central Park is 3.4 km2

edited - hectares bigger than acres

Hectares are larger than Acres.....
Roughly 2.5 Acres to the Hectare.

Other food for post-nuke Manhattan
 

Shellfish

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...100292389.html

"Weeds"
It'll need experts like this guy

http://www.ediblemanhattan.com/20090914/weedeater/

or this lady

http://www.heritageradionetwork.com/...de-12-Ava-Chin

Backyard farms

Incidentally, the best approach might be to follow the Cuban model
http://www.monthlyreview.org/0104koont.htm

Guys I am not trying to make it about Manhattan, just the figures. :P

I am just trying to apply Antenna's GREAT WORK to a real canon scenario...

Antenna,

This is tremendous. Thanks for doing all of this work. It's a lot to wade through. I wanted to extend my appreciation before too much time went by.

Webstral

Agreed, amazing work. Very useful for a variety of game settings. Thanks for posting it Antenna.

No problem there, I think we were just using the Manhattan model to show how you don't have to work on the traditional farming plot to obtain some foods, there are alternatives that can reduce the amount of land you would normally need.

food...
 

have you considered pollution/radiation in the equations?

On the other hand a farm could "farm" roaches on the side as food for the livestock or kids when they misbehave etc....

Oh Pain, there you go again singing the praises of farming "land shrimp". :D

Thanks for the cred guys :)

Antenna

Well, there are few studies what radiation does to crop, so sorry there :)

Antenna

Hey man as long as you powder them up after you cook them and sell them as red cross relief disaster packages who would know?

Apart from that they breed extremly easily and will basically eat anything from leftovers to garbage to political dissidents ;)

Found this lovely little gem.
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../devices7.html

Just to give an idea how much meat livestock can provide:

During WWII, the German Army considered a meat ration to be about 173gm per day.

An Army Butcher Platoon could process the following in a single day:

40 beef cattle = equal to 40,000 meat rations
or
80 pigs = equal to 24,000 meat rations
or
240 sheep = equal to 19,000 meat rations

Check out Armies of the Night if you have access but they covered this side of life in the big city after the TDM and result mad rush to leave town and then those who have stayed and survived.