TR 01-09-2004, 11:23 AM After some of the reading here I thought I would share my two cents on how I read 1960's Indiana in such a scenario... I warn you all now this is going to be long!
As far as age nmdecke, know how you feel as were the same age... However I grew up in law enforcement and military circles as a kid, so I always got to hear the adults talk about the cold war and such. (As well as see my parents stock foods and such in the garage for the cold war.)
Being a Hoosier by birth and growing up there during the 70's and 80's I think I can add some material to think about.
I think you could expect key social groups in Indiana during this period:
The Military Types:
Indiana had a fair number of military bases and reserve units as well in the state. We know not all of them would have been deployed, for example the Bunker Hill AFB was a SAC facility so they would have remained on station as it were there. So you've got soldiers who are going to band together in groups at their facilities and bring their families in to protect what they've got. Secondly you would have some break down in that the soldiers would break with their units and go home. This is less likely I think in that unit cohesion and pride was big back then after WWII and Korea.
So that means you have a large chunk of military presence in key parts of the state only. This may mean outside these spheres of influence there may be less control however there are still some groups to list here. More than likely on this military facilities you would see the old victory gardens concept come back as they would need food of course. You can bet they could get technical advice from farmers in their community or from a member of their unit who grew up on a farm.
You can also expect engineers, carpenters, mechanics, doctors in military units to be in demand of course as they have to take care of their own, maintain what they have and build onto the exsisting facilities.
The Law & Order Types:
This is where things get truly interesting, Indiana back then had the triple ring of law enforcement coverage. You had the county sherriffs which patrolled and enforced the law in rural areas. You had the city police forces which were keeping the peace in the larger towns and communities of the state. Then you had the State Police which are the equiviliant of the FBI in the state.
So that means you would have pockets of law enforcement, firefighters and paramedics in the rural areas and towns which could be encountered. Some would keep to themselves and protect their own loved ones. Cops being somewhat clannish you might expect them to band together into some small communities of their own and or adopt a town and protect it (in return for foods, etc).
The State Police are an entirely different matter. Their structure has posts scattered all through out the state of Indiana. They divide the state into 17 districts if I recall right and have posts in each district. It would do well for anyone thinking about knocking over the ISP to remember that they were formed to deal with Dillinger. So a lot of the old ISP Posts are forts basically designed to be fought in during a seige.
I would have to do some digging to see how many posts they had in the 60's (my father was an ISP Trooper in the 60's through the 80's) so if the need arises for that info let me know.
Each post I can tell you no matter how big or small consists of the following.
Radio Communiciations Equipment
Automotive Service (not a full service garage but the basics including gasoline)
Armory
Offices (of course)
Kitchen
Showers
I would have to check with my source for more detailed information but you get the idea. You can be assured in this scenario you could easily add to the list.
The crux of the ISP would be family, these posts are not always big enough nor equipped to handle large scale populations living in them. So they would have to move their families in to an area close to the posts... or build onto the facilities. For that local community effort would be expected I'm sure.
So in some areas you could have military and law enforcement coverage of a community. As such I think the biker gang/criminal influences are going to have a tougher time taking over a town.
Other Groups:
The Farmers
Military/Law Enforcement Veterans
Firefighters/Paramedics
Depression Era Survivors
Farmers are big in the 60's, this is before the trend of the small farm going broke and being bought up by the banks. So this means you have a lot of rural areas where farming is being done, crops being brought in and the crop may exceed what the farmer can eat for himself and his family.
Granted the farmers are going to plant less I'm sure initially as they don't want to cover acres of land if their only producing food for 6 people... This also means their going to potentially trade any surplus food for what they need to survive.
Farmers are going to be somewhat self sufficient in a way, you can expect them to have oil lanterns and heaters... not to mention fireplaces used for heating their homes. Believe during this period you still have a lot of forest area that people would be chopping down.
Farmers are going to own firearms to a degree, maybe not military grade weapons (but if their military vets you never know). Normally a pistol perhaps, a rifle or shotgun. Normally in small calibers for the pistol (i.e. 22 LR/Short etc for varmit control) and the rifle or shotgun in conventional loads for hunting and predator control.
For farmers their going to have to patrol their lands/crops a lot more in this era. Lots of wild dogs and other pests would be looking for food too so for those growing livestock this is going to be a problem.
Indiana however eliminated a lot of predators over the years so you don't normally see large numbers of wolves, mountain lions (etc). However there are wolves in Wisconsin, so if things are bad there you could see them come down south into Indiana...
Coyotes and Dogs make up for something like 75% of predator activity in the state today. Bears, Foxes, Eagles and Bobcats only account for 14% of current predator activity so that tells you the rough percentage of numbers in the state. Hogs and sheep make up for a lot of the livestock in the state, corn wheat, soybeans and hay are some of the more common crops grown normally.
Depression Era Surviors are a sub category really that you can add to any group. I add it because both my grand parents lived through the depression and I saw growing up how it affected them 40 years later. As many have mentioned... canning. BIG TIME. I can remember there was a seperate basement where they stored all sorts of canned goods, jams and so forth. They also had planted lots of apple & buckeye trees on their property and had their own well rather than use city water.
They stored lots of things that didn't seem to make sense to me then. Spare parts for the tractor in the barn, quantities of fuel and oil in 55 gallon drums and the like even during the off season when not planting or harvesting crops. They also had a wood stove right there in the kitchen for heating purposes, but of course in a real emergency it could have been used for cooking as well. As you can imagine there was a large supply of chopped wood all ready for it as needed.
Retired Law Enforcement/Military Veterans are a group of persons in the state that provide a cadre of personnel if required. There were a lot of Hoosiers who went off to war during WWII and Korea who came back after the war to their homes and farms. Many brought back war souveniers (flags, katana swords, handguns, rifles and the like).
The Military veterans could be readily used to form militia groups to patrol communities and outlying areas for trouble makers. They would also make a good cadre for training basic marksmanship and such to the community at large.
Retired law enforcement officers fall into the same sort of category as the retired veteran. They are going to be extremelly useful for their law enforcement skills and teaching new fledgling rookie officers the ropes. As well with their backgrounds and experience their going to be good at policing the community and so forth.
Many a cop retired with their service issue revolver, many more of course accquired firearms which they privately purchased during the course of their career. As well many a cop took firearms after a trial that were no longer needed for evidence and would have been disposed of. So that means their going to be reasonably well armed as well.
So both groups provide a ready pool of manpower to tap into who can often teach others skills... and bring their own guns to the table.
Firefighter and Paramedics are two closely related groups, they also would have ties with law enforcement officers who they would have worked with as well.
Firefighters of course are on duty in their station houses so that means their going to be a tight knit group. You can easily expect them to band together with their friends and even potentially offer their skills to areas where military and law enforcement already are. The problem is their going to have to turn back to the past to do their job.
There are a number of museums in the state that have old horse drawn water pumps on display. Once the fuel, oil and parts break down for their trucks their going to be in a tight spot. More than likely what I would see happening is they would have to take a page from the past and go back to old steam engine pumps, pump driven engine's and the like.
For the paramedics (and really medical doctors and the like in state) they would be a valuable commodity. Most communities would want to entice a doctor to open up a practice there. However I would see the military and law enforcement circles having the largest sway on getting the top doctors. Of course that's a double edged sword, the public would get extremelly resentful if they were left with some two bit hack surgeon.
The military and police would need to have open clinics to a degree, not so much that their always out of medical supplies but enough to treat and care for those that show up from outlying regions.
Eli Lilly being a pharmacutical company in the state would be useful in that the personnel would become prized. However their of course going to have to also start utilizing older herbal remedies and the like as the ability to make the modern drugs of the 1960's would be a huge drain of resources if they did it in large scale production.
One thing Indiana did have going for it back then was parks and forest areas, etc to turn to in order to find medicinal plants.
There are bound to be groups I missed but this gives you an idea of course of who I think the major players and groups would be back then. Hope it helps.
TR
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graebarde 01-09-2004, 11:31 PM TR,
Good info, and right on IMO.. much the same in most of the country, at least in rural states I think. One thing I think that may be redundant is the alot of the police, firefighters, and paramedics you mention are probably veterans too, so they have multiple skills to offer to the community.
grae
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TR 01-10-2004, 12:17 AM True and depending on how old they are they could have been dperession era survivors (and or grew up on farms) as well... you can have a LOT of overlapage.
Still I think for rural areas it is accurate, some states may not have the degree of law enforcement as Indiana per se but it can be used as a basic template.
Urban areas of course are a different breed of animal though, harder for me to comment on them in that the first 18 years of my life was in the "wilds" of Indiana. My old high school had corn fields on three sides of it and on the 4th was a creek and woodland area.
Still I think you would have some percentage of people in urban areas who would stay. They would have to spend a percentage of their day scavenging about the city for supplies, and goods. Of course they would have to have their own mini-gardens and such to have any sort of stable food supply.
The majority of people in urban areas of course would flee... the roads would be clogged with cars, there would be accidents on the roads... fights and deaths over the most basic traffic altercations. What people who did get out of the cities would be all over the place. Some would go to national parks areas because they went camping there (etc). Others would head for relatives who live in the countryside (etc). The rest would be squatting on lands both public and private and fending for themselves any way they can.
This of course (as imagined) would be a huge problem for law enforcement and military types trying to enforce law and order in these areas. Food supplies would be strained in these areas as well as medical supplies. Farmers in these areas would be stuck in a real crisis of faith as they have food and goods but these people obviously don't. They however would want to keep their own family and loved one's safe so their generoisty would only go so far for so long.
I think however a shrewd leader could make this work to his advantage. You have a large influx of people and any number of projects that would require construction and or repairs. Right there you have a willing population of people who would do almost anything for food/supplies. You might have to move these people around the area to avoid over population and over saturation of supplies.
Some more food for thought of course.
Until Later
TR
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nmdecke 01-10-2004, 08:53 AM Wow, great stuff! Any thoughts on the "minority populations" of that time period? Wasn't the early 1960s a time when the native americans were becoming more militant and political? From your North Dakota experience, do you see the tribes up in that part of the nation disbanding under the pressure or closing up on themselves? Hispanics in the southwest I dealt with already, but were there other large Hispanic populations in areas that I missed? In 1962, the civil rights movement was in it's early stages, how do you think the loss of central government control would affect the black populations in the south? Without Washington telling them to segregrate and integrate, would the southern states revert back into low-level slavery to keep their economies afloat? I know that there is a largish Veitnamese population in NW Arkansas and SW Missouri (the girl from Carthage was Vietnamese), but I don't know if they were there in 1962. How about the Amish? Here in NE Indiana, we have a huge population of Amish folk, and by seeing the low-tech way they live and farm today, I can imagine that they might be perfectly suited for life in a post-nuke 1964. I don't know how the Amish out here feel about firearms, though. If they are as pacifist as the ones in Ohio, then they might get wiped out by armed refugees from the cities pretty early. Any ideas?
Anybody have a favorite (or hated) place they want nuked? I might have a few SS-7 ICBMs left if I cut down the rate of launch failures.
nathan
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nmdecke 01-10-2004, 08:56 AM BTW, I think we broke the record for most "page views" on the forum...thanks!
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TR 01-10-2004, 10:35 AM The Minority Equation... ah yes what a nightmare that would be. It was during the 60's of course that a lot of the advances came through to change things in this country.
With the nukes going off in your scenario when they did it's going to be all a mixed bag in that racism especially in the South is going to be a big issue. In the rest of the USA your still going to have outbreaks, and the KKK is still going to be around to have to deal with.
The Native american uprisings (AIM) really was in the later end of the 60's and 1970's. Still that would be an issue brewing in America in your scenario along with racial equality. I think all of the Freedom Riders from the 60's would be doing their protests and the like at a local community level rather than across the United states. so the battle for freedom would become extremelly personal as they would be protesting in areas where they live and are known.
Amish in Indiana, Ohio, Pennyslvania are all going to be doing fine as far as surviving. However it would benefit the governments in these areas to protect them as they are pacifists of course and would not own firearms. I don't think even the Menanites (sp) would own firearms, even though they sometimes will have some modern advances in their home some of their core beliefs are against murder. Still the local governments could learn greatly from the Amish on the issue of low tech survival. agriculutural methods and the like.
Another big issue from the 60's of course left to deal with would be the protest movement in general against governments, war and the like. I think this would have never happened in the scenario outlined, at least not in the numbers and only on a local level. Most folk would dismiss it as foolishness especially in the face of the nukes having been dropped. I don't think some things like Woodstock would ever occur.
As far as nuclear targets, Bunker Hill AFB (Grissom AFB) being home to a SAC Bomber Wing might be on the list but I think it would greatly depend on how many SAC bases we had then (as well as the other targets) versus how many nukes the Russians had in the mid-60's.
Until Later
TR
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Jason Weiser 01-10-2004, 10:47 AM Well, you also have on the racism front the rather ugly personage of George Lincoln Rockwell, Mr. American Nazi, Remember him! He might make an interesting stooge of Carl Hughes (assuming you're keeping New America in the BG). Also, there's a very unrepentant George Wallace running around. I don't think he is governor of Mississippi any more by 1962, but if he is, good lord are things going to get ugly down there.
As for the Amish, no, they are pacifists, so no firearms. But, to be honest, I think Allegheny Uprising is still useful, as you're going to have hordes of NYC and Ohio refugees decend on PA and NJ like locusts, and the locals are going to have their hands full, which may put the army in a VERY touch position.
Getting back to the question above, I wonder if, considering the issues with desegregation, would some southern states secede from the union again? It's possible, and frankly, wouldn't surprise me at all. Do we say these governments have been infiltrated by New America or the KKK? Or, are they the result of "populist" anger?
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TR 01-10-2004, 11:06 AM Yeah Rockwell... someone I try hard to forget, he put on a very slick show back then. I think in an era of no TV, some radio and few printing presses (after the nukes I mean) he could do well.
However he was killed by a member of his own group in August of 1967 so I think could expect history to stay true to form honestly in that he had alienated a number of people along his rise to fame and power (such as it was).
The sheer number of racists groups during this period would be problamatic for military and law enforcement alike. Depending on your state there was always a number of people in politics, law enforcement, military and so forth back then were members of the KKK for example. So anyone advocating an equality movement and doing away with hate would find enemies in the wrong places...
TR
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Chuck Mandus 01-10-2004, 12:25 PM Here in Pittsburgh back in 1962, we were a major industrial center for things like steel, copper, other metals. There were a lot of corporations headquartered here too, US Steel, Koppers, J&L Steel, Mesta Machine, Westinghouse, and so on. Westinghouse had their labs to the East of Pittsburgh on Route 30. My father was an industrial photographer, he went to many of those places and even got to see and talk to the "movers and shakers" of the time. He did have an assignment at Westinghouse labs, one time he bumped a canister and the top was loose. If the top came off, I might not be here, it was radioactive.
Given that we had a 1 megger hit us, Pittsburgh would have a lot of damage to the steel mills and other industries close to the city but you would still have servicable mills in the Mon (Mongahela) Valley south of Pittsburgh and West/Northwest in the Beaver county area. Also too, since it looks to me that it wasn't hit, you would have a servicable nuclear power plant at Shippingport, PA in Beaver county since it went online in 1957. I have the program to the 1960 World Series which lists a lot of companies and corporations, I ought to crack it open sometime and post what I find here.
Militarywise, we did have the Nike Sites, I lived near one all my life, when they closed in 1974, it was a license to go "freelance spelunking." Oakdale was a command/radar center, I've always known it as being part of the 99th Army Command although I'm not sure if it was so in 1962. We also have various National Guard and Army Reserve Units.
We also have a Air Force Reserve wing here and a Penna Air National Guard. We had fighters here, my neighbor is the former head mechanic for the fighters at the base until he (and the fighters) were retired in 1993. Back then from talking to him, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he told me they kept 4 Sabre jets (F-86) ready to go on the "hotline." Basically, the pilots would sit in the planes or be close to them, when one pilot would switch off to the other, they would fire the jet up for 10 minutes then shut it down, gas it up and have it ready agai. I think they kept the electronics "warm" by feeding it power from an APU (Auxillary Power Unit) so it could go "hot" anytime. Don't know if we had the KC-135 tankers or the C-130's here at the time, but I think we still had the old Globemasters. Looks like time for another talk.
Also, since Pittsburgh has rivers, we do have a healthy continent of the Coast Guard here and the Army Corp of Engineers, the locks and dams do need to be run.
I've wondered about the Klan in the South too although they did (sometimes still do) have a presence in some rural areas in Pennsylvania, Back in the 1920's, they had huge rallies, my grandmother remembers them burning a giant cross in Riverview Park (in Pittsburgh's North Side) every year back then, could see it for miles. I think even by the 1960's here, the Klan might not be as big of a factor as they were a generation prior but they might still be a minor factor.
Culturally, I wonder what music, society, radio/TV would be like in 1964. Since the Beatles would have come to America in 1964, Cuba going hot in 1962 would have prevented that, although by that time, they were starting to make inroads in England and Europe. I think one of their first big songs "Love Me Do" was recorded at the time so with only that, they might only be a footnote in history, I wonder what conditions the UK and Europe would be in?
I might be showing my political bias a bit here, but I doubt you get a lot of the shenangians in the late 1960's as a result of the Vietnam War that still reverberate to this very day. Sure there were some things that needed address such as Civil Rights as such, but some of the other stuff has led to the "gimmee society" we have now along with "political correctness." If it still came up, I'm sure you would get a response similar to World War II where "hey, there's a war on" or "hey, we need to rebuild America."
I wonder what America would look like in 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2004 in this timeline?
On a personal note, my father served in the Army from 1955-57. He was in Japan, Korean, White Sands Missile Range as a photographer. After you got out of the Army, you were still on inactive reserve for several years. My mother was worried that he was going to get called up during the Cuban Missile Crisis but instead he got his final discharge from the Army during the crisis. In a prior message, if things went hot in 1962, I might not be here or a different person since I was born in 1966.
Chuck
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graebarde 01-10-2004, 09:38 PM snipped reviews...
The Minority Equation..
IIRC it was about this time the major desegregation was taking place. In the south it would have come to a screetching halt IMHO with a massive societial upheval of a nuclear war. But then that war might just have been the catalyst to speed it up, as everyone is reduced to survival, and it is the 'minority' of every race that is the trouble makers in the first place.
And George Wallace was the governor of Alabama, NOT Mississippi.. but heck Mississippi was worse than Alabama, just not as in the news I think. Even in the mid 70's there was a racisit-segregationist view in the deep south. THe Klan would rise it's ugly head in many areas IMHO.
As was said AIM was a 70's thing, however there were militants on the reservations even in teh 60s. I grew up about 10 miles from the Ft Totten res, where Russel Means was raised. Whites did NOT go down there and mess around generally.. you could wake up dead in a ditch, or cut up bad at least. I think there would have been a moving out from the res to survive. The iherient problems of the time (and they still exist to an extent today, maybe worse for all I know) were alcohol, and government handouts. Yes, I realize the government under teh treaties siad they would support them, but with the collapse there would be a drive to survive. And I think the tribes in general would be banding together (no NOT different tribes, but same tribes on different reservations). IT woudl also be a time for 'getting even' as on the Totten res ther were Sioux/Lakota AND Chippewa/Ojibwe that were historically blood enemies, infact there were often troubles between the tribes.
Music...
Buddy Holley, Elvis Presley, Big Bopper.. ROCK AND ROLL BABY!!! and Countrybilly (Red Sovine, Webb Pierce) .. blues and jazz..
Very FEW FM stations, and ALL the radios had triangles at 640AM and 1240AM 'Conelrad'.
There was still Radio programs such as the Lone ranger, Amos and Andy, etc (though they MAY have been reruns we still listened to them) and on Sunday morniing CJOB (Winnepeg) had a Blue Boy Icecream sponsored duo that read the sunday funnies with Blondie, Dick Tracy, and others..)
TV.. Ed Sullivan, Red Skeleton, Playhouse 90, IF you had a TV and lived where you could receive TV.
<sigh> thanks for the memories fellas... nostalgia strikes.
One figure that is missing in the equation besides the KKK, and American Nazi party is the American Comunisty party led by Gus Hall (though I don't think he was the leader in 62, and I don't know off hand who was) but THEY were VERY pro-Russia and caused problems (unproven they were behind ALOT of the unrest in the late 60s under various names)
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graebarde 01-10-2004, 10:05 PM another thing to think about.. in this time frame (62) the vehicles were much simpler than today.. points and condensers NO electronics to fry from EMP.. and TV and radios were tube (let it warm up before listening) that were relatively EMP proof, or so Im led to beleive.
You'd see cars/trucks running until the fuel ran out, (or they broke and weren't repaired from lack of parts) but the government would be quick to commandeer all fuel and impliment rationing of same I'm sure, (at any level) so there would be fewer on the roads.
By any level I mean in small rural communities, as well as cities, there are large bulk tanks for fuel (gasoline, diesel fuel, and heating fuel). Im sure the local authorities (IF they were prudent and smart, which I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about both in the early 60's) would see quickly that was their ONLY supplies for the unforseable future and lock them up. It might not (and Im sure would not) please the population, but the most of the elders would remember WW2 when you could only get gas with a ration card and NOT riot as I could IMO see them doing today.
Another thing is in this time the railroads were still running passenger trains (no AMTRAK), and served more of the smaller towns where they abandoned the rails in the late 70s, 80s and 90s. A few of the railroads then still had STEAM power, at least in reserve or branch line service, but Norfolk & Western (THE coal hauler in Virginia) was almost exclusively steam till near this time.
IMO this would help speed recovery, though, depending on targets hit, the interchages would be disrupted. Trains would be THE main intercity transport again IMHO due to fuel shortages.
thoughts?
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nmdecke 01-11-2004, 09:02 AM More great stuff. I think I'll put all the replies on the forum in a link on the site for the gazetter if nobdy minds. All this great info would come in handy for anyone looking to run a game in this world. It is a bit beyond the scope of what the gazetter was intended to be, though, which is a shame because if I had more imagination and time I could really flesh out the timeline with everything we have talked about. My next challenge is assigning the classic T2K area terms (Organized, Insular, Anarcy, etc...) to the states and regions. Any ideas on those?
A few bonus questions...
Was the Army desegregated in 1962? Were there "black only" units still at that time?
Anybody know anything about tactical nukes? Were the actual warheads kept with the divisions or in some central armory somewhere? I mean the Honest Johns and the artillery rounds mostly, weapons of that size.
Any historical figures that you all might think would have a role in this timeline? What would a young Clint Eastwood be doing? I think I have a young George Bush in San Antonio, but what about a younger Ron Reagan or Nixon? Any famous general from the Vietnam era make a splash in 1962?
This is a throw-away, but for those of you who believe, the UFO crash at Roswell was only 15 years ago, and the 1960s were a time of almost daily UFO sightings in America. Any thoughts on a Twilight 1964--Dark Conspiracy 1964 crossover?
Oh, and TR, I probably can't nuke Bunker Hill AFB because I spent so much effort on making NE Indiana the oasis of the state that having a big ole dirty H-Bomb popping just 45 miles upwind and spreading its rooster tail across the area would negate much of what I wrote. Sorry. I really didn't hit too many SAC bases to begin with because I wanted to have the majority of the big nukes aimed on city targets. I read a book when I first started this project about the Soviet's nuclear strategy in the late 1950s when they just had a few missiles. Their plan was to use the big nukes on cities and save the airbases and silo complexes for bomber raids. The ICBMs were very inacurate so they figured that they would be better aimed at a huge city than a small airfield that they might miss by ten miles, the bombers would be much more accurate and if timed right, would catch the US missiles still prepping in their silos. That is the formula that I based everything on, but severely cut back on the bomber raids as I just cant see too many Bears making it past the USAF fighters and the Nike rings.
nathan
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graebarde 01-11-2004, 06:03 PM bonus questions .....
Was the Army desegregated in 1962?
Yep.. they desegregated by 1955 (actually I think it actually happened earlier during the Korean 'conflict'). NO 'all blacks' at this time except in the Kiwi rugby union
)
tactical nukes? Were the actual warheads kept with the divisions ?
AFAIK they were stored in special ASPs within the division. They were in the 70s and I dont think they changed much from the previous ten years. It made for greater dispersion and faster load outs.
What would a young Clint Eastwood be doing?
Not exactly sure, but I think this is about the time the TV series Rawhide came out. At any rate he was in Hollywood stuggling to get on the screne. Ronnie R was an active actor at this time.
To quote "There are NO UFOs..." so says the USAF Operation Bluebook that investigated (allegidley) all UFO sitings.
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graebarde 01-11-2004, 06:07 PM as for assignement of organized etc to areas, I think I would start with target areas as anarchy, and ring out, with organized being more prevelant and insular in some areas, especially the more remote areas. It all dependson how you feel the survivng governments would react as to how organized any area is IMHO.
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Chuck Mandus 01-11-2004, 06:37 PM George Lincoln Rockwell, speak of the Devil, after I watched "Shazam" on TV Land, I did some channel surfing and there he was on the "History Channel." The documentary was about the American Nazi Party. From what I understand, Rockwell's Nazi HQ was in Arlington, Virginia near DC so that could have been blown away although just prior to things getting hot, there was ample warning so I'm sure Rockwell & Co. would hightail it out and hole up somewhere in the mountains.
Rockwell was a piece of work, I saw a still pic of him smoking his corncob pipe and his eyes were bugged out, if crack was around in 1966 which it wasn't so far as I know, it looks like he was smokin' some
I found a brief article about Rockwell here:
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lincoln_Rockwell
I know he was killed in 1967 during a power struggle because as TR pointed out, he did manage to get others within his party PO'ed at him. Now in 1962, was the schism there? I'm not sure. I know he and Malcolm X got along well despite their differences, it seems they wanted basically the same thing for their repsective followers, according to the Wikipedia article, Rockwell did make a donation to the Nation of Islam. Malcolm X is another figure I wonder about in this timeline.
Army integration, I think President Truman made it policy in the late 1940's certainly around the time of the Korean War so things should be moving fairly well by 1962.
UFO's and other stuff, at that time, there have been people who claimed to have been contacted and even invited or abducted by aliens. I think the word of that time was "contactee." Of course, most of this was below the radar for most people, at least until the famous 1961 abduction case of Barney and Betty Hill. Project Bluebook was still in action, it ran from 1947 to 1969.
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nmdecke 01-12-2004, 06:53 AM By the way, perhaps someone would be willing to let go of their copy of the ellusive East European Sourcebook so I can convert it to Twilight 1964 standards? I'd even take a Xerox or a .pdf if that's all that's available. This is the only module that I have not yet strip mined for ideas and plot points, mostly because I am not willing to pay 50 bucks for it on eBay. I have much trade bait, including the equally ellusive Survivor's Guide to the UK (and a bunch of Godzilla movies)...just make me a deal. nathan
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nmdecke 01-13-2004, 03:07 PM Public thanks to Kato for letting me pry a copy of the East European Sourcebook from his fingers. Why is that module so difficult to find? Did they only print a handful of them? Is it going be included in the new reprints? nathan
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TR 01-13-2004, 05:56 PM I think the reason the East European Sourcebook is tough to find is was near the end of GDW's production run before they folded. I am not sure how many were made but I imagine most folk didn't see it in the stores (I know I didn't see it here in Colorado)...
Considering that the reprints from Far Future is a slow process who knows how long it would be before it gets reprinted. I bought their advance order of the main book with the first 4 adventures and the exclusive artwork included but still it was a year almost from time of order to being in my hands.
Still hopefully that will change!
TR
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Chuck Mandus 01-15-2004, 07:50 PM Hmmm, Twilight: 1964 and Dark Conspiracy crossover. Some good fodder for ideas are the mid 1990's TV series "Dark Skies" where a couple is on the run from "Majestic 12" during the 1960s where they try to stay away and even sometimes help Majestic fight aliens, depending on the situation. It tied a lot of 1960's history into the alien conspiracy like the 1964 Beatles broadcast on Ed Sullivan, the aliens were going to beam "mind control rays" out to the public, one of the former Majestic stuff who is part "Hive" and with the aliens killed a man named "Charlie Mansion" and assumed his identity in 1967, and so on. The series was cancelled after a season, it was supposed to continue onward into the 1970's and up to 1996/2000 maybe.
Other good fodder is the Steven Spielberg mini-series "Taken" that starts from 1944 to now about a secret group tracking aliens and wonder what they are up to. I got a big kick out of the first director at Area 51 where it showed a B-2 Stealth bomber flying around in 1958. The ending was kind of anti-climatical, it was slow and drawn out in some spots though.
Chuck
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no_name 01-16-2004, 01:42 AM hey so how about giving credit to your sources!?!!
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nmdecke 01-16-2004, 06:01 AM Credit to my sources?
Ok. I would like to sincerely thank every single website devoted to T2k on the internet for providing me with bits and chunks of my little project, and the fine folks at Far Futures and the long lost souls at GDW for creating such a fine game. As well, I would like to thank the authors of about 300 assorted books and magazines, the production staff of about 50 movies, and my lovely wife for letting me type while she watched the baby.
Yes, I have committed wonton acts of plagarism and theivery. If this were an academic project, I would have been expelled. If I was trying to sell it and make money, I would have been sued. As I have plainly stated on numerous occasions both in my site and on this forum, I did not cite sources in the document as I never intended it to be seen by anyone other than the handful of people who I associate with. To cite or footnote every single instance where someone's ideas have been inserted would make the document a royal mess and I simply don't have the time to do it. Besides, I don't even remember where I got 95% of the stuff.
No-Name, did I steal something of yours? If so, let me know and I will footnote the relevant passage. My only intention in posting the document on the web was to allow all the fans of the game an opportunity to see what I have created. It is simply a service to the gaming community, not an attempt to claim any credit for myself. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to email me.
And if anyone else out there on the forum feels like I have done them wrong, please don't hesitate to tell me. I will gladly excise any part of the document which is a problem. Thank you all.
Nathan
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AzSteven 01-22-2004, 02:37 PM Originally posted by James1978
As for the Army depots, they may have been a treasure trove early on to whomever controlled them. I once read that the US kept Sherman tanks in the war-reserve stockpile into the 1960s. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but a few dozen Sherman tanks would make someone a major force in this world. There are probably a lot of Garrand rifles floating around as well as other WW II surplus.
Fort Wingate in northern New Mexico had a large number of WWII and Korean War vehicles in storage, including Sherman tanks, up until the 1970s or maybe even later. I think it was one of the central clearing grounds for selling surplus vehicles for scrap or reuse, much like Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson currently does with aircraft.
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ReHerakhte 01-24-2004, 03:04 AM Just as a "what did they have" kind of listing (and because I'm a mad turret-head), I thought I'd post this to show the types of armoured vehicles you could encounter in this timeline. Keep in mind that although a number of the vehicles listed were produced during or just after WW2, many of them continued in service into the 1950s or later when in the hands of other nations, e.g. the M24 was still in use with some countries up to the 1990s.
USA: Tanks
75mm & 76mm M4 Sherman, 1942
90mm M26 Pershing heavy tank, 1944
75mm M24 Chaffee light tank, 1944
76mm M41 Walker Bulldog light tank, 1951
120mm M103 heavy tank, 1952 (only 200 built IRL)
90mm M47 Patton I, 1952
90mm M48 Patton II, 1953 (upgunned with British 105mm sometime in the 1960s)
105mm M60, 1960
152mm gun/missile launcher M551 Sheridan, 1960
USA: Armoured Cars
12.7mm M3 White Scout Car 4x4, 1939 (many thousands still in service with France & South American nations)
37mm M8 Greyhound 6x6, 1943 (same story as M3 above)
12.7mm M20 Armoured Utility Car 6x6 (version of M8 Greyhound)
12.7mm Cadillac Gage V-100 Commando 4x4, 1964
USA: Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs)
M3 Half-track, 1938 (many thousands in use with other nations e.g. France)
M75 APC, 1952 (1729 made, used by European based US units until retired or sold to Belgium when M59 was available)
M59 APC, 1953 (6300 made until replaced by M113)
M113 APC, 1956 (M577 Command Post variant made in 1962)
LVTP5, 1956 (1123 made for USMC)
USA: Self-Propelled Guns (SPGs)
76mm M18 Hellcat tank destroyer, 1943 (many given to France and Yugoslavia after WW2, Yugoslav M18s were still in use up to 1990s)
90mm M36 tank destroyer, 1944 (similar background to M18, Croatia was still using them up to 1990s)
90mm M56 Scorpion tank destroyer, 1953
6 x 106mm Rcl M50 Ontos tank destroyer, 1955 (Ontos is Greek for 'Thing')
75mm M3 Half-track Gun Motor Carriage, 1941-44 (over 2200 built, after US Army acquired fully tracked SPGs, many of these were given to the British)
105mm M7 Priest Howitzer Motor Carriage, 1942 (after being withdrawn from US service many were acquired by the Austrians)
155mm M40 SPG, 1945 (a number were supplied to allied nations after WW2 such as France and the UK, UK might still have had them up to the late 1950s)
155mm M44 SP Howitzer, 1950 (a number sold to UK in late 1950s)
175mm M107 SPG, 1961
105mm M108 SPG, 1962 (basically the same as the M109 but with a lower calibre gun)
155mm M109 SPG, 1963
UK: Tanks (note: Infantry tanks were literally seen as mobile bunkers to support the Infantry, Cruiser tanks were used in the cavalry role)
2pdr (40mm) Churchill Infantry Tank, 1941 (around 5400 built with many variants still serving in UK into the 1950s)
6pdr (57mm) Cromwell Cruiser Tank, 1943 (being phased out but many were rebuilt as Charioteer tank destroyers)
17pdr (76mm) Comet Cruiser Tank, 1945 (still in use with UK until the early 1960s but retained in Finland and Eire until 1970s)
17pdr (76.2mm) Centurion MBT, 1945 (models sporting a 105mm gun built from 1958)
120mm Conqueror heavy tank, 1956 (around 200 built)
120mm Chieftain MBT, 1963 (in the 1960s this was the best armed & best protected tank in the world... but slow!)
Vickers Mk I MBT, 1964 (designed for the export market with India taking a significant number)
UK: Armoured Cars
Bren Gun Carrier, 1934 (many thousands made in UK, Australia, Canada & New Zealand and retained into the 1950s in the Command Post role, originally designed to transport the Bren Gun and its crew)
Universal Carrier, 1938 (very similar in most respects to Bren Gun Carrier, about 70 000 built in UK, Australia, Canada & New Zealand and 14 000 built as T-16 in USA, originally designed to haul ammo for the 18pdr gun but was also used to carry mortars & their crews
Daimler Dingo Scout Car 4x4, 1938 (some were modernized after WW2 and staid in service into the 1950s)
15mm Besa HMG Humber Scout Car 4x4, 1941 (many still in service in some SE Asian countries into the 1960s)
.30 Browning Ferret Scout Car 4x4, 1953
76mm Saladin Armoured Car 6x6, 1959
UK: APCs
.30 Browning Saracen APC 6x6, 1953
Humber 'Pig' FV1600 APC 4x4, 1955
FV432 APC, 1962
UK: SPGs
17pdr (76.2mm) Archer tank destroyer, 1943 (based upon the Valentine tank, about 660 made, some passed onto friendly nations after WW2, such as Egypt, some retained in UK service till mid-1950s)
Hornet tank destroyer, 1953 (basically a Humber 'Pig' modified to carry & launch the Malkara ATGW, Malkara had largest warhead of its time and was capable of destroying all known tanks, retained in UK service until 1970s)
20pdr (83.8mm) Charioteer tank destroyer, 1954 (retired sometime after 1958 when 105mm Centurion came into service but a number still in use with Middle Eastern nations into 1970s)
FV438 tank destroyer, 1962 (variant of FV432 APC fitted with twin launcher for Swingfire ATGW)
105mm Abbot SPG, 1964
France: Tanks
37mm Hotchkiss H-39 Light Tank, 1939 (many of these could still be found in use in the Middle East and the Far East with such countries such as Afghanistan - * my mistake, the Afghans had the Renault FT-17 light tank)
75mm AMX-13, 1948 (about 7700 made with many sold to foreign militaries, later models upgunned with 90mm gun)
105mm AMX-30, 1960
France: Armoured Cars
75mm Panhard EBR Recce Vehicle 8x8/4x4, 1950 (used AMX-13 turret, travelled as 4x4 on roads and lowered additional wheels for cross-country travel, exported to Morocco, Tunisia and Portugal)
90mm Panhard AML Armoured Car, 1960 (also available with 60mm breech loading mortar, built in South Africa as the Eland)
France: APCs
AMC-VCI Infantry Combat Vehicle, 1950 (users included Mexico with 401 examples)
20mm Hotchkiss Carrier - German Variant, Spz 11, 1956 (one of the first armoured vehicles of the newly created Bundeswehr but used typically in the Recce role rather than as an APC, also available as turretless Command Vehicle, Light Ambulance, 81mm Mortar Carrier, last vehicles retired from German service in 1976)
France: SPGs
105mm Mk 61, 1950 (also acquired by the Dutch)
155mm Mk F3, 1962 (also sold to Morocco)
Germany: Tanks
37mm PzKpfw III, 1937 (the French were supposed to have gathered together a decent number of these after the war when cleaning up the old battlegrounds)
75mm PzKpfw IV Ausf H - modified, 1940s (bizarre but true, the French rebuilt a number of these they had recovered after WW2 and sold them to Syria who used them on the Golan in an independent tank battalion, possibly against Shermans of the Israelis!)
105mm Leopard 1A1, 1963 (one of the best 'all-round' designs combining good firepower, good speed and decent armour, it would be widely exported and continuously updated, the ARV version was produced from 1966)
Germany: Armoured Cars
SdKfz 221 4x4, 1935 (a number of these were left in North Africa and used by the newly independent nations until supplies of the more plentiful European & US vehicles were obtained)
20mm SdKfz 222 4x4, 1939 (see note for SdKfz 221)
7.92mm MG (East German) SK-1 Armoured Car, 1954 (issued to internal security and border patrol units)
Germany: APCs
SdKfz 251 Half-track (a small number of these were used by a few countries after WW2 but junked after supplies of the more plentiful European & US vehicles were obtained, France was rumoured to have had a number of them after cleaning up after WW2)
20mm HS-30 Carrier/Spz 12-3 APC, 1955 (a Swiss design built in Germany, one of the first Infantry Combat Vehicle designs and the first APC for the Bundeswehr, available as Command Post vehicle and 120mm Mortar Carrier)
20mm Marder 1 Infantry Combat Vehicle, 1961 (first prototypes were available in 1961 but the protracted development meant that models didn't enter service till 1971, one of the first advanced infantry combat vehicles)
Henschel HWK-11 APC, 1963 (developed as a family of vehicles in the early 1960s, it wasn't adopted except for Mexico who took 40 in 1964-65, they remain in service as of 2001)
Germany: SPGs
75mm Panzerjager 38(t) Hetzer, 1944 (with over 2500 built a number of these continued in Czechoslovak service after WW2, kinda funny considering the design was based upon a Czechoslovak tank design in the first place)
90mm JagdPanzer Kanone, 1959
JagdPanzer Rakete, 1963 (armed with single, pop-up launcher for SS-11 ATGW)
Other Western European nations
Austria:
20mm Saurer 4K 4FA APC, 1961
Denmark:
76mm M41 DK light tank (a modernized US M41 used by the Danes into the 1980s)
Netherlands:
YP-408 APC 8x8, 1963
Spain:
90mm Upgraded M47, 1952
105mm Upgraded M48, 1954
Sweden:
75mm Strv 74 Light Tank, 1958
Pbv 301 APC (a design based upon the Swedish M/41 light tank that was itself based upon a Czech design, it would lead to the Pbv 302 design of 1966)
Switzerland:
105mm Pz61 MBT, 1961
Mowag MR8-01 APC 4x4, 1958 (conceived as an internal security vehicle, the only customer was the West German border guard)
75mm G-13 TD tank destroyer (a Swiss modernization of the WW2 German Hetzer, the Swiss still had 158 of them into the 1970s)
Eastern European nations
Czechoslovakia:
OT-810 Half-track, 1948 (a Czech adaptation of the WW2 German SdKfz 251 which the Romanians also bought, an anti-tank version with the 82mm M59A recoilless rifle was available)
Hungary:
OT-65/FUG Recce Vehicle 4x4, 1964 (a Hungarian answer to the Soviet BRDM-1, a number were supplied to Poland and Czechoslovakia hence the OT-65 designation, other models included a turret mounting an 82mm Recoilless Rifle)
Russia/Soviet Union: Tanks
76.2mm KV-I heavy tank, 1939 (although withdrawn from service in 1943, a number were placed in storage rather than disposed of)
152mm KV-II heavy tank, 1940 (the same notes as the KV-I apply although the KV-II was withdrawn in 1942)
76.2mm T34/76 MBT, 1940 (off those T34/76s that hadn't been replaced by the T34/85, a number were placed in storage)
122mm IS-2 heavy tank, 1944 (many of these were kept on as the mainstay of heavy armoured formations in the Soviet military with a number being sold off to countries such as Egypt during the 1970s)
85mm T34/85, 1944 (many of these tanks were kept in service into the 1960s with production only ending in 1964, Poland and Czechoslovakia licensed produced it and many could still be found in use in Yugoslavia into the 1990s)
122mm IS-3 heavy tank, 1945 (an improvement of the earlier IS-2, it was probably the most formidable tank in the world at the time and caused NATO leaders many headaches)
100mm T-54 MBT, 1948 (a refinement of the earlier T44 design, by the time production ended in the 1970s, over 95 000 had been built and distributed amongst client states)
76.2mm PT-76 Light Tank, 1952
122mm T-10 heavy tank, 1953
100mm T-55 MBT, 1958 (like the T-54, built in large numbers and widely distributed)
115mm T-62 MBT, 1961
Russia/Soviet Union: Armoured Cars
BRDM-1 Scout Car 4x4, 1959 (also available as a tank destroyer, see SPG section)
BRDM-2 Scout Car 4x4, 1963 (also available as a ATGW tank destroyer from 1965 and later as an anti-aircraft system)
Russia/Soviet Union: APCs
BTR-40 4x4, 1950 (produced in a number of variants including Command Post, Ambulance, AA Gun System and specialized recce)
BTR-152 6x6, 1950 (quite literally a copy of the US and German Half-tracks of WW2, while discarding the track system it was still a mediocre vehicle but produced in huge numbers and therefore cheap, widely distributed amongst client states, available in Command Post, AA Gun System, Ambulance)
BTR-50 APC, 1957 (also produced in Poland, Czechoslovakia and China, it remained the standard Soviet tracked APC until the introduction of the BMP-1)
BTR-60 APC 8x8, 1961 (originally turretless and with an open top until the BTR-60A model which gave it a turret mounted 14.5mm HMG)
Russia/Soviet Union: SPGs
57mm ASU-57 tank destroyer, 1951 (designed as a light assault gun/tank destroyer for Soviet airborne forces, it served well into the 1980s)
BRDM-1 tank destroyer (armed with a 4 missile launcher for the AT-1 Snapper or AT-2 Swatter ATGW and latter models carried an overhead launcher for the AT-3 Sagger)
85mm ASU-85 tank destroyer, 1962 (a follow up design to the ASU-57 meant to be air landed rather than para-dropped like the ASU-57)
76.2mm SU-76 Assault Gun, 1942 (designed to support the infantry and also kill tanks, it was outclassed by the time it entered service, produced in greater numbers than any other Soviet vehicle except the T-34, it served on after WW2 with a number of WarPac forces)
152mm SU-152/ISU-152 Assault Gun, 1943 (basically an IS-2 carrying a howitzer, although limited by its small ammo capacity it remained in service well after WW2)
85mm SU-85 Assault Gun, 1943 (although effectively replaced by the SU-100, many remained in storage after the war)
100mm SU-100 Assault Gun, 1944 (just over 1500 were made and it remained in Red Army service into the 1950s)
122mm SU-122/ISU-122 Assault Gun (although production ended during the war it was resumed in 1947 and finally ceased in 1952, it was widely exported to Africa and Asia)
Other Nations
Canada:
25pdr (87.1mm) Sexton SPG, 1943 (although developed for WW2, many continued well into the 1950s with British and Canadian forces as the mainstay of their SP artillery and it could also be found in service with Portugal and South Africa)
China:
100mm Type 59 MBT, 1959 (Chinese adaptation of the T-54)
85mm Type 62 Light Tank, 1962 (a scaled down version of the Type 59)
85mm Type 63 Light Tank, 1963 (Chinese amphibious tank similar to PT-76, fitted with Type 59 turret)
Israel:
75mm Upgraded Sherman MBT, 1950s
105mm Upgraded T55 MBT, 1961 (one of numerous types of Soviet vehicles captured from the Arabs by the Israelis, modifications included a new engine & transmission, 105mm gun, new stabilization & fire control, air conditioning and passive night vision gear)
Modified US Half-Track, 1960s (the Israelis had hundreds of US half-tracks and used them not just as APCs but also as Ambulances, Command vehicles, Mortar Carriers, AA Gun Systems and Ammunition Carriers)
Japan:
90mm Type 61 MBT, 1962
Type 60 APC, 1960
2 x 106mm Rcl Type 60 Tank Destroyer, 1960
Hopefully this will prove useful.
And after all that, I'll leave it to someone else to detail anything else (like aircraft or smallarms, TR where are you?!)
Cheers,
Kevin
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nmdecke 01-24-2004, 03:28 AM Wow, great list. I have a similar list for US vehicles but now I have one for the rest of the world, thanks. Since America in my timeline is rather isolated, my main concern are the vehicles of Mexico and Canada. Other than the AMC VCI apc you mentioned, do you have any idea what Mexico's army was equipted with in the early 1960? I know that they had batches of Shermans and Stuarts, but I don't know any more than that. Did they have vehicles made by other countries, or was it almost entirely surplus American stuff? And since I have some Canadian incursions across the northern border, what type of vehciles might you encounter in these raids? I assume all the Canadian heavy units were shipped out to war, but some of the left-behinds would still have some armor. Thanks again.
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