[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

I think this is the part that make troops complain the loudest. It was always intended that a Division trains together to fight together. Yet, even before Operation Desert Storm it has been completely the opposite, with the exception of the 82nd and 101st during that war. Every other Division was made up mix brigades from units that were hand pick for the Armor and Mechanized Divisions.

Its always been this way, at least since WWII, units were stripped to provide cadre for a new formed division. Korea was no better, except that units were stripped stateside to provide replacements for the Far East. In Vietnam, the one year and your out policy destroyed a division's cohesion faster than enemy action did. In Persian Gulf I, what a lot of people forget is that after the fall of the old Soviet Union, Bush I started drawing down troops to save money, a lot of brigades were deactivated and this is one of the reasons that you found 3MID units in the 1AD to name one example.

You hear a lot of talk about "training together and fighting together" but when a moment of crisis happens, it's throw whatever is available into the pot and hope for the best. Face it, the US Military as a whole has never been adequate to protect the intrests of the USA. There was a plan once to move divisions down to the Mexican border to help stem the flow of drugs and illegals crossing the border, had a good chance of working too, until Congress discovered that to seal the border completely would require the commitment of 130 divisions....and please remember, that at the height of WWII, the US only fielded 90 divisions.

After the initial invasion, and then the immediate occupation force after that, a Division HQ would be sent over and they would have if lucky one or two of their own brigades under their command, while other Brigades even the Aviation would be form elsewhere. Even the Brigade and Battalions and Companies would be far mix than what they had trained to go over with. Then throw in the new attitude that regardless if the Division was 82nd or 101st it should be expected to support and operate Heavy Brigades within it command and the Armor and Mechanized Divisions were expected to learn how to operate with light units, and with unit that were use to being in M1s and M2 riding around the area in HMMWVs.

The thinking behind this is that any division commander can command any mix of units...completely disregards that heavy and light units have different capabilities, different tactics and different logistical needs. But HAY! What do I know, I'm just a glorified bean counter nowdays...

You are quite correct the Army on paper has increased the number of Brigades from 30-33 neighborhood to something of 48 was the goal, I think it like 51 or 52 when all added up... Of course it is difficult to really get a tally since some Brigades are still supposedly in transit. While other sites states some Division are here, but other parts are there. Including two Infantry Brigades that what left of the 1st Armor and Mechanized Divisions from their withdraw from Germany.

In the number of combat troops there has been only slight increase of men/women. In reality if one looks at the number of Companies/Batteries/Troops and Battalions/Squadrons the numbers haven't really moved up as much as one would expect of force that was increase by 16 or so Brigades. This seems to be a major concern too.

I agree....if you cut 40 riflemen from your company, it just means that the remaining 80 rifleman have to work harder. And if your unit suffers losses, well then the 60 remaining riflemen have to work even harder. Its a nasty sprial that never ends. There was a lot of flak over the Marines keeping the 13-man rifle squad, vs the 7-man Army rifle squad...hmmmm, more firepower, better able to take losses and remain effective, better command and control...Marines were right.

It is combination that Divisions have lost their sense of accomplishment. Even Brigades and Battalions loose sense since now the battle streamers and worse yet the unit citation become a nightmare. The book keeping as platoons are splinter and composite companies are sent on missions that they were never quite trained for. Armor and Mechanized units using HMMWVs, Artillery units conducting infantry foot patrols. The hard fact in this war is that everyone in the combat zone is expected to act as 11B unless you were medic, even then you better know your stuff just in case.

If even half of what I'm hearing from return soldiers is true, the Army is suffering major problems with morale and discipline. Fragmenting units has been proven to be unworkable through the last three major wars (or is that a war, a police action and whateverthehell Vietnam was supposed to be?). But here we are, in the longest whateverthehell Iraq/Afghanistan are supposed to be, fragmenting units because some think-tank on the Beltway is convienced that it can work.

Even during WWII when each Division had been drown down from 4 Infantry Regiment to 3 Regiment they usually took to the field with addition resource that would gradually equal to a 4th Regiment. Even the Armor Division that originally had two Combat Command had a third one added by the end of the war and wasn't unusually to find Infantry Regiment assigned to them. Even in Vietnam the 23rd Infantry Division was collection of Separate Brigades that were grouped together under a common HQ in theater.

Then you add to the fact that units were told they would go over for only 12-15 months depending on when they were to go over spending up to 18 months there because of this emergency or another. Supposedly staying at home station for 18 months for training which rarely happen. I guess there are reason for the sour grape complaints...

Not that the troop have much room to complain because they did signed up, but after people keep telling you one thing and making promises that they know they can't keep. Well I would expect anyone to cry foul.

Please, as a favor, don't get me started on that diaster known as Tricare!

One of the things was the pride that units use to have and the amount of time NCOs and Officers would go to instill what the unit had done over the years. Lot of that was thrown out of window when the 3rd Mechanized Division was carved up and later units kept going through rotation after rotation. I think at last count most of the regular Army was working on 5th over and some Guard units were working on their 3rd rotation over in the Middle East. All the while many of the troops knowing they can press their luck only so many times.

Or the fact that their are plenty of 20-24 year old E-5s and E-6s milling around, take this into consideration that many O-1 out of West Point are only 22-24. Back in 1989 there was talk amongst the senior NCOs in my company because E-6 who had less then 8 years had just made E-6. many of these people had been 10-12 years before they made it to E-6.

So it in general there are lot of things that people are grumbling about. It always will be there and lot of it due to lost of traditions. Which to keep is just silly...but it does happen.

There are good reasons behind the traditions. Its corny, its silly, its outdated, but it helps the soldier belong to something greater than himself.