[castlebravo92]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Absolutely. Facts are equally important. Truth depends on them.



This is false. I think you're referring to the 2014 Maidan "revolution". Those were pro-democracy protests. The Ukrainian regime at the time, led by a Russian puppet, ignored a national plebiscite that would have connected Ukraine's economy more closely to the EU than to Russia. He then brutally suppressed peaceful demonstrators in Kiev's Maidan Square. Eventually, he was driven from office (and fled to Russia, IIRC). Free elections were held in 2019.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48007487

If you're referring to the postponed 2024 Ukrainian general election, then fair point. But to be fair to Ukraine, it's very difficult to have a legitimate national election when 1/4 of your country is under hostile foreign occupation, let alone during a war for national survival.



To your first point, that was a local government initiative, in response to similar Russian laws in occupied Ukraine. AFAIK, it wasn't a national law.

To your second point, there's a little more nuance to that law than your summary suggests.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ch-2024-08-20/

For whatever it's worth, I don't approve of either law.

However, I do think that it's worth mentioning that both of those laws were passed AFTER Russia invaded and occupied parts of Ukraine proper in 2022.



I think your concerns regarding freedom of democracy, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion in Ukraine are valid, and don't necessarily mean that you are a Putin sympathizer.

I do think there's a bit of false equivalency and "what-about-ism" in a lot of pro-Russian arguments. For example,



Seriously?

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Unfortunately, yes. In Russia they have fake elections, in Ukraine they just cancel the elections. Zelensky himself made the assertion recently that upwards of 70% of the military aid sent Ukraine’s way had literally been stolen. Zelensky’s domestic critics don’t seem to wind up dead from polonium in their coffee or falling out of their windows like Putin’s critics, but Ukraine the state is qualitatively not that much different than Russia. It's a corrupt mafia state run by a strongman dictator. The main difference is that Russia is the aggressor in the war and they seem to be committing far fewer war crimes than Russia. And of course the West is supporting them and together it makes them the (relatively) good guys. On the whole I have been supportive of US policy with regard to Ukraine, but I do think we were too slow to give them deep strike capability and a little too lax on controls on the money we are sending their way. Zelensky’s wife doesn’t need any more Bugatis on uS taxpayers’ dime.

Edited to add - when the initial Russian invasion stalled and the Russian invading army evaporated, there was a window where a status quo peace deal might have been reached (meaning, pre invasion border, but post 2014 borders, and no NATO entry), but the Biden admin pressured Zelensky to back off negotations. That, in hindsight, was probably the best of a bunch of negative sum choices left on the game theory board.