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Old 09-10-2008, 05:16 AM
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Default Today's Tactical Problem...

chico20854 09-04-2008, 08:49 AM I've been looking at some of the pictures coming out of the war in Georgia, and it brings to mind the following thought: modern combat (especially in Twilight:2000, after years of war) is messy!


Take a look at the following pictures of a damaged school. Then answer the hypothetical question: how would you (with a typical group of PC's) root out a group of say 10-12 marauders/deserters from such a place? (And to keep it easy, assume that the surrounding buildings are not occupied by either non-combatants or marauders.)


Let the ideas flow!


Edited to add: They have something/someone inside that the PC group needs to retrieve, so it needs to remain standing long enough for the snatch team to get in and out...

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copeab 09-04-2008, 09:37 AM Edited to add: They have something/someone inside that the PC group needs to retrieve, so it needs to remain standing long enough for the snatch team to get in and out...


Well, that rules out recon by grenade ...


This may be a case where a SWAT team would be better than an infantry squad.


Brandon

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bigehauser 09-04-2008, 09:55 AM First off, move to contact just far enough to have some leg room to break contact, but close enough to observe what they are doing before clearing out that bad boy.

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TiggerCCW UK 09-04-2008, 09:59 AM How big a squad have we, what weaponry? Do we know how well armed/equipped the enemy are?


I'm with Brandon on this one, thinking SWAT type tactics may be the best - CS gas assuming the enemy aren't known to have gas masks, then a dynamic entry using flash bangs etc. Obviously that is in a best case scenario, with our squad having all the right gear.


Another option, time permitting, might be to starve them out, but that very much depends on the situation.

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Targan 09-04-2008, 10:02 AM The first two thoughts that come to mind are gassing them out or the equivalent, or psy-ops (scaring them out or frightening them into surrender). Direct assault would have to be the hardest option with which to prevent the enemy from killing a needed hostage or destroying a required item.

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chico20854 09-04-2008, 10:21 AM How big a squad have we, what weaponry? Do we know how well armed/equipped the enemy are?


I'm with Brandon on this one, thinking SWAT type tactics may be the best - CS gas assuming the enemy aren't known to have gas masks, then a dynamic entry using flash bangs etc. Obviously that is in a best case scenario, with our squad having all the right gear.


Another option, time permitting, might be to starve them out, but that very much depends on the situation.


Ok, you have 6-10 PCs and 2-4 NPCs, locals who are helping you out/have hired you to get the marauders out of their town. (this may end up being a multi=part exercise... this is task #1!)


You have no armored vehicles, but a HMMWV with a .50 cal. You have 1 M-203, 1 light/medium MG (MAG, M-60, PKM-class), 1 RPG w/3 rockets or 3 LAWs/AT-4s. Everyone has a SMG or assault rifle of some kind, and you have 1 sniper/marksmans rifle (M-21, SVD type, not some $5000 Lapua...) Ammo isn't plentiful, the NPCs have no NBC gear, only 2-3 CS grenades and a dozen frags.

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FightingFlamingo 09-04-2008, 10:38 AM I've removed my comment to encourage alternative answers to the tactical question of the day and will repost the same text at a later time...

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FightingFlamingo 09-04-2008, 10:41 AM any reference I made to flash/bangs or concussion grenades may now be replaced with Frag Grenades...

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pmulcahy 09-04-2008, 11:50 AM I guess BZ gas is out, considering what happened at the theater in Moscow...


I think Flamingo has it pretty well covered.

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copeab 09-04-2008, 01:12 PM You have no armored vehicles, but a HMMWV with a .50 cal. You have 1 M-203, 1 light/medium MG (MAG, M-60, PKM-class), 1 RPG w/3 rockets or 3 LAWs/AT-4s. Everyone has a SMG or assault rifle of some kind, and you have 1 sniper/marksmans rifle (M-21, SVD type, not some $5000 Lapua...) Ammo isn't plentiful, the NPCs have no NBC gear, only 2-3 CS grenades and a dozen frags.


Unfortunately, most of these weapons are useless to the task at hand and some are as dangerous to the attackers as defenders.


The HMG. MMG and rockets are simply too dangerous to use while friendlies or The Package is inside. Same with the frag grenades.


The M203 is only useful if you have come type of chemical round for it (TG, smoke, etc). Even then, it and the CD grenades are as likely to incapacitate the attackers as defenders (I assume no NBC gear means no gas masks -- do the PCs have gas masks?).


So, in the end, the only usable weapons you actually have are the assault rifles, SMGs and sniper rifle.


Brandon

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chico20854 09-04-2008, 01:38 PM Unfortunately, most of these weapons are useless to the task at hand and some are as dangerous to the attackers as defenders.


The HMG. MMG and rockets are simply too dangerous to use while friendlies or The Package is inside. Same with the frag grenades.


The M203 is only useful if you have come type of chemical round for it (TG, smoke, etc). Even then, it and the CD grenades are as likely to incapacitate the attackers as defenders (I assume no NBC gear means no gas masks -- do the PCs have gas masks?).


So, in the end, the only usable weapons you actually have are the assault rifles, SMGs and sniper rifle.


Brandon


Yet this situation and equipment outfit aren't too far off (or easier than) what occurs somewhat regularly in many campaigns (or at least should be). This is a damaged school - imagine how much more difficult the Black Baron's fortress, the Warta in Krakow or assorted power plants, beached ships and the like would be to handle.


The PCs have gas masks, the NPCs do not.

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Jason Weiser 09-04-2008, 05:25 PM Ok, assuming we have some C-4 and the means to tamp it...we mousehole from two ends of the building...one's a diversion, and gets set off 10 seconds from the main event.


After that...we chuck some CS and Frag in there and then clear the initial entry, and then the ugly begins...fireteams clear the place...room by room, with the HMMWVs .50 cals making sure none of the baddies run for it.


It's how I'd do it...yeah...not very elegant...and I am not as experienced as FF or Law...but I hope it meets with their approval. If not, then I shall sit down and learn something!

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Raellus 09-04-2008, 06:36 PM It depends on whether the package is human or not. If not, I wouldn't be quite so careful with my application of firepower. If so, the problem becomes much trickier.


If you could get that .50 cal to within 50-100m, its rounds could probably penetrate those walls.


I hope I don't embarass myself here, but this is what I'd do.


With the HUMVEE (driver and gunner) following in support, half of the party and the NPCs approach on foot from the front of the school building, using standard fire and manouver tactics, attempting to draw enemy fire. Once targets are IDed, the .50 cal is used to take them out. The exterior walls of the building aren't going to protect them.


Meanwhile, the other half of the team (those with the most skill in CQB) swings stealthily around to the back of the building. Once the .50 opens up, the assault team uses an RPG or LAW to blast a hole in the wall (if C4 isn't available). They then enter and begin to clear the building with small arms, using frags only when they encounter stiff opposition.


-Rank Amateur

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TiggerCCW UK 09-05-2008, 01:44 AM Personally. I'd opt for securing a perimeter around the building, using the marksman and the .50 to cover the most likely exit routes, then gas and smoke the building and move in and do a room clearance. Preferably do a dynamic entry blasting a hole with an RPG/LAW or C4, but if we're unable to identify the exact location of the enemy I'd go with a slower entry until we located them.


Either way its a nasty situation to be in without the right resources, and I reckon casualties would be taken by our side, with no guarantee of securing the package intact.

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FightingFlamingo 09-05-2008, 07:16 AM my originally posted solution


1) Establish GPMG position (2-3 men) which can provide grazing fire across the egress point (i.e. the door), also the GPMG team should be able to suppress the upper floors, and all windows sans the building entry point.

2)Entry/Clearance team (4-5 men preferably 5, including squad leader) approach building from the left of the GPMG position, which is suppressing the building on approach. The entry point will be the lower left window in the photo.

3) As they reach the Entry/Clearance reaches the left corner of the building. They will don their protective masks. They will then employ Smoke or CS Gas (Gas is preferred), through all windows in the upper floor, and all but the entry floor sans the entry point, which will be prepped with a concussion grenade or a flash/bang (CS or Smoke should be employed via 40mm if available).

4) Entry team uses human ladder method to enter entry point (the ground floor, left most window in the image) immediately following flashbang. Thrower of flash/bang provides security after throwing grenade through window and covers corner side of building with low observable angle from the GPMG position, so the GPMG which now should be shifting from suppressive fires on the windows, too grazing fire across the egress.

5) 3-4 members of the Entry/clearance team enter the building with extreme violence of action clearing the ground floor first. Any armed individuals will be engaged until killed.

6) Once the ground floor has been cleared, the SL, which entered the building through the window, will through some visual signaling device pre determined out of a window to alert the GPMG team that the ground floor had been cleared (i.e. coloured smoke).

7) Second flash/bang or concussion grenade is thrown up the stairwell, and the clearance team will go up the stairs maintaining violence of action as previously described sans on team member whom will remain at the base of the stairwell as a security element.

9) Once the upper floor has been cleared the team will determine if the TARGET has been incapacitated/injured as a result of action. A second visual signal will be given to the GPMG team which now will move to the egress point to provide security at the egress, now entrance point (door way).

10) Once the Target has been identified, and any aid if required has been rendered, the team will rapidly egress to a predetermined rally point away from the target building. Leaving a satchel charge on egress with a 2-minute time fuse comprising sufficient explosive material to collapse the remainder of the building.


That’s a rough out of how I'd take on this problem, given Chico’s constraints that the building must be entered.

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copeab 09-05-2008, 09:41 AM There isn't sufficient information for me to form a plan.


(1) What kind of cover is there around the school? Trees? Fences/walls? Other buildings?


(2) What does the other side of the building look like? What about the end opposite the caved-in end? For all we know, there are outdoor stairs on the back side, so if the package is in the second floor, it will be removed from the building once a raid starts.


#1 should be obvious to the PCs. #2 would take a little bit of scouting.


Brandon

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FightingFlamingo 09-05-2008, 11:58 AM the problem really is in a tactical environment you are often operating in the absense of clear, or complete information, or the time to perform adequate recon. Some times, time may only allow for a map recon to the objective area, orp, or target. The mission still needs to be accomplished, in all likely hood rapidly (whinning about lack of or inappropriate resouces is generally frowned upon), so it falls on the small unit leader to make it happen. This stresses the importance of maintaining SOP's at the lowest level (fire teams) regarding how to perform battle drills (i.e. react to contact, break contact, clear a building, dismount APC on contact, conduct ambush, etc.).

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copeab 09-05-2008, 01:27 PM the problem really is in a tactical environment you are often operating in the absense of clear, or complete information, or the time to perform adequate recon.



Except that doesn't apply in this case.


The GM is denying information to the players that would clearly be visible to the PCs. That's BS and it has nothing to do with reality.


Brandon

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rcaf_777 09-05-2008, 07:37 PM assume that the surrounding buildings are not occupied by either non-combatants or marauders.)


Going by this I would try and Use the Humvee to gain access to the upper floors with half of the squad while the other half of the squad act as a frontal assault is taking place.


I would leave a back enterance unguard as a way out, the attacks are more likly to flee is belive that they are surrounded and there is a way out. Why do you think the Russian fought so hard a Stalingrad?

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Twilight2000V3 09-05-2008, 09:19 PM My 2 cents:


1) Syphon alcohol out of the hummer.

2) Grab a half dozen empty beer bottles.

3) "Manufacture" a few molotovs.

4) Ignite the building on fire.

5) Shoot them as they come out.

6) Repeat as necessary.


Hey didn't this tactic work for the ATF/FBI in a little town in Texas sometime ago?

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Hangfire7 09-05-2008, 09:24 PM I've been looking at some of the pictures coming out of the war in Georgia, and it brings to mind the following thought: modern combat (especially in Twilight:2000, after years of war) is messy!


Take a look at the following pictures of a damaged school. Then answer the hypothetical question: how would you (with a typical group of PC's) root out a group of say 10-12 marauders/deserters from such a place? (And to keep it easy, assume that the surrounding buildings are not occupied by either non-combatants or marauders.)


Let the ideas flow!


Edited to add: They have something/someone inside that the PC group needs to retrieve, so it needs to remain standing long enough for the snatch team to get in and out...


That kind of looks like the house I envisioned in my Fighting Over Ruins PBM.


In that scenario the PCs had to assault, capture, fortify and defend the building that was on a slight hill, but was the highest point in the area and used as an observation post for the rest of the command. It didn't help that the P's had to deal with a old school prussian commander of the area who demanded each man hold ultil the last.


Paul, you remember that campaign? I even made the PCs choose which path to take. They chose poorly.




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Last edited by kato13; 09-24-2008 at 07:25 PM.
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