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Old 10-28-2008, 05:41 PM
jester jester is offline
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[QUOTE=Mohoender]Ok I didn't got it about the regular infantry man. Both Falloudja and Beyruth saw more destruction than needed but that is a personnal opinion from what info I got (I might be wrong then). On both, I was not clear enough, then, I didn't mean to compare them with the amount of destruction found in WWII, but both had to face air and artillery attacks that might have helped the defenders more than the attackers (more like Monte Cassino). I could have sited Vietnam as another exemple or Okinawa (then you right again: WWII).

Yes, most of what I was talking about was regular well trained infantry, usualy light, which could be applied to Marine infantry, Heliborne or Paratroopers. As for Falujah, to my knowledge the city was not blown to pieced with artillery, and air assets were used in a very limited manner, the city for the most part is rebuilt and has just been turned back to its people. If artillery had been used along with airstrikes it would still be rubble. As for Beruit, that was multiple factions who did not care and used everything they had. And that fighting lasted for how many years, pitty too as it was the Paris of the Med and just when you think its getting normal something happens. I'd truly like to go there one day.

As for artillery and air aiding defenders like Monte Casino, Beruit, probably, Faluja, not really. What was used was precision and used with great restriction, much like the Battle of Hue durring TET.

As for Vietnam, air assets and urban/civilian targets where? I am interested. I mentioned Hue, it was 105s and 75mm rockets and a few runs that were restricted to the old citidel.

As for Okinawa, there was some reguard for the civilians, but yes, Naha, and the ancient Suri Castle and others were blasted. However, the defenses were also formidable as well. So that is an argument that is not likely to be won, its like the chicken or the egg arugment of which came first? Was Okinawa a harder fight because we used heavy artillery and air or did it help since the Japanese had such massive defenses. However, you also see a progression of actualy taking the civilians in consideration before resorting to such things.



I agree about U.S. emphasizing on marksmanship as much as it can. But that's valid only when you control the ground and more or less the war. Nevertheless, I was talking about T2K not about IRL and in T2K, I don't expect U.S. to field only well trained troops. Casualties are too high and you need to replace the losses in a hury. I understand that many among you are playing very experienced soldiers; I usually have less experienced groups that get better from "field training" if they survive of course .


How does marksmanship not remain a factor weather you control the ground or not? I do not follow you.

As for conscripts. Being poorly trained, which is what I am understanding your point to be in a T2K conflict. Maybe in a T2K setting, but some factors to consider. Who would be called up first to replace the losses of the regulars? Early war volunteers who would be well trained, reservists and natuional guardsmen called to active duty, indaviduals who had been in the military who would be recalled, and men like me who had no reserve obligation but could be called back or woulsd come back on their own who were already trained. Those are who would replace the casualties. The new recruits would take about a year to train. Using WWII as a example older expeirenced troops from the theaters and those who had service and were recalled would be used to form new units being raised, with new recruits going to replacement units who would then be delivered to the units to replace losses, however, the replacements usualy came in 1s, 2s and 3s and would be assimilated into the unit and even trained to gain some level of knowlege.

However, I would suggest this! By the time it was down to ill trained recruits the situation at home would have deteriorated so they would be needed at home, and the resources to send these men overseas to Eruope would not be there. It would not be a major priority at that point, coupled with the fact that the lines would probably have stagnated by that time as well.



If you look closely at the Russians, the russian army never numbered much more than 400.000 troops. These are the well equipped core and they are reinforced by less trained and effective troops that would come in much larger numbers. Usually, the less trained one are entering the field first, when the ennemy get to the core, it has exhausted its best forces. Standard Russian procedure from way before the soviets.

Ah but universal conscription was the key! Their regular army numbered that much, but their reserves were how many? And yes they were not the top of the line forces but still they were trained personel.

And then we come to the idea of the Elite units being saved, much asd Napoleon used his Imperial Guards to administer the Coups De Grace, got it! Its an old tactic used by the Old World.


About Marksmanship, I would think that U.S. entered the war in Iraq baddly prepared with inadequate equipments and command. Things certainly have changed today. For my campaign, I'm now over with Russia and got on U.S. and Britain. As a result, I get more info on new equipments fielded by both armies. Things have changed a lot. It just goes to an old idea: an army is always well prepared for the previous war and unprepared for the next.

About these vehicles I think they are developped for the same purpose than similar vehicles made by Israel. QUOTE]

Badly equiped? Eh, not as well equiped as they could or should have been, but badly? Thats a bit rough. Remember, we went into Iraq more or less as the Game says "A come as you are war." We were not preparing for a war. 9/11 was a surprise and we didn't have alot of time between that and Iraq. We were just finishing with a "draw down" and "BRAC" evolution which was the reduction in our military forces, ships bases and similair assets, And I will be political, the military was NEGLECTED and ABUSED durring the Clintoon years, the scum bucket hated the military and he kept it no secret, his wife was worse. And I did hear them say it too. The down side of being staioned in Hawaii and them liking to vacation there. An example, a company rated 25 9mm pistols. 1 was not red taged! Half our M60s were red taged, 1 of our mortars but that was okay as we only had enough men for 1 propper gun team but we managed two guns. SMAWs we had about 2/3s of them servicable, I lived in a building that had been condemed since before Vietnam and was infested with cockroaches, we had no money for fuield operations and even 1 mess hall was closed, so you had to go to the wing side for food, and if they ran out you got hotdogs or nothing at times. The military was improving under Bush and just prior to 9/11 but it had a LONG WAY to go.


Yes, I know the adage, it goes like this, "An army is always trained to fight the last war it fought." Whcih is sad but true because that is how/where its leadership gained their expereince, that is IF that leadership has experience. Quite often peacetime leadership is little more than good administrators and ass kissers.

As for the purpose of the vehicles, what is their purpose other than a cool factor aand for a Party in T2K it would be cool to have. Or maybe Ivan in his utilitarian mind is making good use of something they have tons of rather than just wasting it?


Okay, the next question is, IF you had either or both vehicles with their capacities, what would you use them for? And how could you be successful using them? Lets say you have a platoons worth, 3 Vehicles with a total of 15 dismounts.
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