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Old 06-22-2009, 04:55 PM
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Raellus Raellus is offline
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Location: Marana, AZ
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Originally Posted by chico20854
So these are some of my thoughts! I hope they help explain a little of where I am coming from on the Soviet war effort.
Excellent! I am almost completely mollified by your revised take on the matter of Soviet military capability, Chico. It seems to be in keeping with the T2K v1.0 canon while allowing for updated equipment and corrected OOBs. If this is the consensus among the DC Working Group, I can definitely live with it.

Jason, thanks for getting back to me. I understand, now, why your argument regarding the limited number of supply arteries between the Russian heartland and the China front. I agree that U.S. airstrikes and conventional cruise missile strikes could seriously disrupt those lines of supply, I'm not sure they could cut them completely. That's some harsh territory deep in rather vast Soviet territory. At least for the roads, you would have to hit them round the clock to shut them down. Train tracks would take longer to repair. However, canon backs you insofar as the collapse of Soviet operations in the Far East after NATO becomes fully involved in the war so I concede here. Your point was germaine. Chico's point about two-way traffic also supports your position.

As to Chinese AAD, your expaned argument seems to contradict the one you make for the relatively easy defeat of Soviet ground-based air defenses. If the extensive Soviet/WTO AD systems are so vulnerable to ARMs and such, why wouldn't the NATO systems introduced piecemeal into China and not fully integrated do so much better against the Soviet AF?

Anyway, after reading your posts over again, I started to doubt my memory of the v1.0 canon timeline so I double checked.

This is what canon has to say about starting Red Army strength in Germany at the time of the Bundeswehr incursion.

---“Despite the initial surprise, the fifteen Soviet divisions remaining in Germany put up a spirited resistance and were soon joined by two more divisions from Poland and three from the garrison of Czechoslovakia. By November 15th, there were also two Czech divisions and four Polish divisions in Germany… “ p. 24

That’s a total of 20 Soviet divisions and six WTO divisions standing up against the Bundeswehr (and select DDR units) only. I can find no mention of the exact makeup of these divisions but it is unreasonable to assume that the Soviets would have left Germany garrisoned almost exclusively by airmobile troops (essentially light mechanized infantry). Canon further supports this viewpoint, “By the end of November, the Bundeswehr was in serious trouble.” Unless you’re presupposing that the W. German military sucked, this strongly suggests that the Soviets had adequate armored and mechanized forces in place prior to the German invasion. Furthermore, by the time the Americans enter the fray, it stands to reason that at least several Soviet/WTO are already on their way back to Europe from the Chinese front.

Even if they're reserve units, with the T-95s, T-90s, and T-80s in service with first-line units, those second-line units would be equiped with T-64s and T-72s. Although not on the same level as the Leopard II, M1A1, or Challenger they'd still be more capable of putting up a stiff fight than the T-62s and T-55s many folks still imagine fielded by most (if not all) Soviet reserve units.

Here’s what canon has to say about the strength and capability of the Soviet AF at the same germinal point in the European theater of the Twilight War.

---“Soviet Frontal Aviation had left their most modern aircraft in the west; these were qualitatively a match for the Luftwaffe and quantitatively more than a match.” p. 24

Even thought the FGR would achieve strategic, operational, and tactical surprisen during the first couple of hours of the reunification-by-force, they could probably only put the Soviet AF in E. Germany out of action for 24-72 hours, and that primarily through damaging airfields as opposed to destroying large numbers of Soviet fighters on the ground. That would allow the FGR AF to support ground ops during that time without fear of Soviet air power. Eventually, however, Soviet airfields would be repaired and fighter assets based further from the border would enter the fray. I imagine MiG-29s and SU-27/35s going up against FGR F-4s and small numbers of FGR Eurofighter Typhoons. I'd say the edge would go to the SAF here. In the meantime, Soviet SAMs and ADA would have started to take its toll on FGR strike and attack aircraft.

Here’s what canon has to say about Soviet interdiction of the sea lanes between the U.S. and Europe.

---“Scattered commerce raiders did break out, however, and by year’s end were wreaking havoc on the NATO convoys bringing ammunition and equipment across the Atlantic.” P. 24

So, any mention of NATO air supremacy and an impotent Soviet navy at the outset/early stages of the European War directly contradicts canon.

Anyway, Jason, my main point is that the Soviet military-industrial complex needs all the help it can get to account for its performance against both China and in Europe. I've tried to come up with some arguments that build it up enough to account for the course of the the pre-nuclear WWIII described by the v1.0 canon. I've tried to be realistic. Immasculating the Red Army with arguments about how it really actually sucked balls and was never a legitimate threat to NATO IRL, doesn't help reconcile what's been established by canon (I'm not saying that you're guilty of this.).
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure module, Rook's Gambit, and campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, available-

Last edited by Raellus; 06-22-2009 at 08:45 PM.
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