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Old 07-13-2009, 04:09 PM
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Raellus Raellus is offline
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I'd like to see your AFV loss model, Chico. I really admire how scientific you guys are being in your assessments.

I'm a huge fan of the M1A1 and Challenger tanks but I'm not sure that they would fare as well against the Red Army as they have against the Iraqi Army. They steamrolled the Iraqis in '91 and '03 but the Iraqis- even their "elite" (LOL) Republican Guards divisions- were never as capable as the front-line units of the Red Army. Against masses of top-of-the-line Soviet tanks (not the cheap export versions), ground and air launched ATGMs, unguided AT weapons, AT mines, artillery, etc., I think NATO tank losses would mount fairly quickly.

I didn't used to think this way. Based on the M1's combat record in the First Gulf War, I had concluded that it was pretty much invulnerable (if used properly) to anything the Soviet Bloc could throw at it. It was the Israeli's experience in Lebanon a few years ago that convinced me that the modern battlefield is becoming increasingly dangerous for even the most modern MBTs. Hezbollah guerillas firing Soviet-made ATGMs (AT-13 & AT-14) manufactured during the early and mid-90s* were able to knock out and/or destroy the Israeli's Merkava Mk. IVs, arguably the world's most advanced and heavily armored operational MBT in the world today.

*These would, therefore, be available to Soviet troops in the Twilight War.

Benjamin, you have a fair point. It's hard to argue with the canonical rate of NATO's advance or the Soviet's first use of battlefield nukes. I do believe that the surprise of the West German's attack coupled with the strains of fighting a full scale war against the PRC go farther in explaining both the Soviet's loss of ground (which may have been somewhat deliberate) and their decision to make the battlefied nuclear than any inherent inferiority in the Soviet armed forced, though.

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the overall superiority of the Israeli and British weapons during the campaigns you mentioned. For just one example, during the '73 Yom Kippur war, Soviet-made Syrian tanks had infrared spotlights while the Israelis' western made Centurions, M-48s, M-60s, and Super Shermans did not, putting the Israelis at a distinct disadvantage during night engagements. The Egyptian's integrated AAD network of Soviet SA-2 and SA-3 SAMs and ZU-23-2 SPAAGs took a significant toll against the vaunted IAFs American Phantoms and Skyhawks. In the Falklands, the RN couldn't counter the Argentinians' Exocet missiles and many British troops swapped their semi-auto FN SLRs for the Argentinian's full-auto FN FALs. IMPO, it was the superior training and experience of the Israelis and Brits that allowed them to triumph, not their technological superiority.

I guess, from a purely gaming standpoint, there seems little point in playing against the remnants of a sucky enemy. On that basis alone, I feel the need to defend the equipment and fighting men of the Red Army.
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Last edited by Raellus; 07-13-2009 at 08:31 PM.
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