[Mohoender]

I make that answer my own.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Yes, but for the sake of brevity, I chose the umbrella term Palestinians (the majority being Muslim Arabs). Informed people, I am sure, know what we are talking about.

On this matter, I think that both you and chalkline are right. They are Palestinians but they are also a multi-cultural society. Nevertheless, if you had to think in term of multi-culturalism, no country would survive on earth so I stand with Raellus.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Only if it is spun. If you look at quotes from Arab leaders like Nasser, young Arafat, Assad, the Hamas and Hezbollah leadership, Ahmadinejad, etc. you will see that ethnic cleansing and genocide was/is their ultimate aim. They used this rhetoric publicly in order to generate support on the Arab "street" where these ideas are rather popular, to this day. Not to mention the undercurrent of Arab/Islamic radicalism that exists throughout the Middle East, even in "friendly" Arab states (see Sadat's assassination for pursuing peace with Israeli). I'm not sure how a people as persecuted as the Jews have been are supposed to take this sort of talk. As I said before, it is naive at best to assume that an Israeli military defeat would result in anything less than a second Holocaust.

Ethnic cleansing and genocide in my opinion remain rhetoric and I doubt that they truly believe in it. No doubt that the Jews had been persecuted but a small portion of radical Jews are using it as a flag to justify the inacceptable (much like Hamas and a portion of the Palestinians by the way). Sadat's assassination is a good exemple but you overlook the fact that Rabin was assassinated for pursuing peace with the Palestinians (strange how it sounds alike). an Israeli military defeat is unlikely and the anti-israel movement is slowly going down among Muslim countries (Turkey is currently the most important ally of Israel).

Originally Posted by Raellus

I am a university trained historian as well. There is another trend among Israeli historians which you seem to be glossing over here. Israeli Revisionists seek to pin the blame for all of the regions ills on Zionism and the Jewish state. Their work is widely available in Israel, as well as abroad. There is no government censorship of such work. You make it sound as though all Israeli's are on the same page when it comes to culpability and that the government actively squashes any kind of dissent. This is quite simply not the case at all. Israel is a democracy and popular dissent is accepted if not encouraged.

What you say is true and we often forgot that many Palestinians had been protected by Jews in 1948 and still are (that explains why you have several milllion Israeli's Arab). All sides are allowed to speak hopefully but saddly it hasn't change much, but again you are right. However, that country is not always that democratic and things are entirely different when it comes to divorcing women or to foreign Jews that are denied the right to leave the country because of the Rabinic court. These are a few among the abuses coming from the Rabinic courts (so much for democracy but i agree that our owns have their limits and might be increasingly fledgling).

Originally Posted by Raellus

On the other hand, some school textbooks in countries such as Egypt and Syria deny that a Holocaust took place and present all of the Middle East's current troubles to be caused by the "evil, imperialistic, Zionist, Jews". This is what Arab school children are being taught from a very young age. That can't be very helpful.

I have never seen these book but I'm sure you are right on that one. However, we are often doing similar things and we make history fit our particular agenda. When I finished my history master (Sorbonne 1998), the French government issued an order that forced all teachers to deny the fact that USSR had ever been a dictatorship. If you are American think back to Mc Carthy... Take any country and you'll find hundreds of similar exemples some more outrageous than others. After all the writing of history is made to justify the goals of present-time governments and it often has little to do with what history really is.

Originally Posted by Raellus

I totally agree with you, here. I think that armed opposition is a given considering Israel's afore-mentioned, apartheid like rule over the occupied territories. I firmly believe that Israel must stop and remove settlements on the West Bank and in the Gaza strip and that they must create an independent Palestinian state in order to ever come close to achieving a lasting piece. However, they will never do this under the threat of violence. Hamas, therefore, is its own worst enemy. Haven't any of those people ever heard of Gandhi?

I'm sure that they heard about Gandhi, especially about the fact that he was assassinated. Like Jaures, M.L.King, Sadat, Rabin... Strange how these people dedicated to peace are all getting killed independently of where they live. However, Hamas is certainly not its worse ennemy and each time Israel attacks it with such brutality it gains more support among the population. If I was in Gaza and if my 6 years old daughter had been blown up by an Israeli bomber I could certainly give my vote to the Hamas (That is equally true for people living in southern Israel). The strangest thing is that so many people continue to deny them that vote (again this is true in Israel as well).

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm not sure that I do. I have already stated that I think the current campaign is disproportionate to the provocation- overkill, if you will. Are you implying that something more sinister is going on here?

Yes something more sinister is going on there. During the cease fire, it was not entirely respected by Hamas. However, Israel was supposed to level the blocus and that wasn't done either. None of the two sides comply to their obligations. It is doubtful that this will end by a military defeat for Israel and by a second hollocaust but a Genocide might become true for the Palestinian residing in Gaza (and I'm not saying living). I doubt that the attention given to this conflict will stop the bombing but it might avoid the Genocide. Else, it can end with a political defeat for the Israeli seeking victory in the coming election.

Originally Posted by Raellus

However, the truth is, Hamas is a classic terrorist organization.

Yes Hamas is a terrorist organization but not a classic one. It fuels on the death of its own people and might even provoke it.

Originally Posted by Raellus

So, as a pragmatist, what would you do if you were the Israeli PM (or DM)?

I would not launch an all out attack. I would try to comply to the various UN resolution and I would not try to turn them to my own advantage. I would move against the illegal colonies everywhere and dismantle them (eventually facing arm insurgency from a minority among my own people). I would increase the level of negociation with Fatah and declare Cisjordania an independent Palestinian state. I would make Jerusalem an international holly city again (may be making it a common capital for both states). I would reinforce fatah's position (using economical and technical support), helping the new Palestinian state in order to undermine Hamas' position. I also would continue to respond to rocket strikes but to a proportional level. Eventually, I'll be assassinated for attempting all these things. One last thing, my assassination will certainly be carried out by Hamas and extremist Jews who would join forces. After all, the ennemy of my ennemy...

However, with "would" one can do anything and so far those who have tried have been killed or are dead. Moreover, it's easy to say while typing behind a desk.

I agree with Moubarak, if the Israeli and the Palestinian ever get along, they will quickly control the entire Middle East.