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TiggerCCW UK 05-04-2003, 07:04 AM I'm a big fan of Landrovers - they just never die. I agree with the comments about heavy armour - unless we just happened to have our own fuel depot, there is no way they would be worth all the effort. I would probably be keen to opt for some of the armoured Landrovers that they use over here in NI. Stats for them are on Paul Mulcahy's web site as the Cav 100 (I think) in the British light armoured vehicles section. They have also recently deployed a new heavier vehicle which resembles an over grown landrover called the Tavern, but I would avoid it where possible - apparently very unreliable and unpopular with the troops. Its based on a security van for moving large sums of cash. I seem to recall that there have been eighteen standardised modifications to it in the first five or six months in service.


ReHerakhte 05-08-2003, 07:29 AM Somewhat off topic, but mention of the Mustang with the truck suspension brings to mind a conversion kit here in Australia that I am kinda curious to see if you fellas in the US have.

The kit is made to convert a typical 2x4 stationwagon or panel van type into a 4x4 offroader. Gives it a higher suspension and reinforces all the connection points etc. Doesn't seem to require extensive workshop time to complete either.

But in regards to vehicles, I would agree with the desirability of Hummers, Landrovers and Landcruisers but being an old fashioned treadhead, I would be inclined to "aquire" some sort of wheeled APC or an armoured car for the 'just in case' situation or even some sort of recce car for scouting. Something like the German TPz1 Fuchs would be sweet if a little too big or the MOWAG Eagle. Hell, if worse came to worst, I'd even settle for a BTR80




El Tee 05-09-2003, 01:21 PM Originally posted by ReHerakhte

Somewhat off topic, but mention of the Mustang with the truck suspension brings to mind a conversion kit here in Australia that I am kinda curious to see if you fellas in the US have.

The kit is made to convert a typical 2x4 stationwagon or panel van type into a 4x4 offroader. Gives it a higher suspension and reinforces all the connection points etc. Doesn't seem to require extensive workshop time to complete either.

But in regards to vehicles, I would agree with the desirability of Hummers, Landrovers and Landcruisers but being an old fashioned treadhead, I would be inclined to "aquire" some sort of wheeled APC or an armoured car for the 'just in case' situation or even some sort of recce car for scouting. Something like the German TPz1 Fuchs would be sweet if a little too big or the MOWAG Eagle. Hell, if worse came to worst, I'd even settle for a BTR80



Do you mean something like a "monster truck"? To a lesser extent, I've seen vans modified with off-road suspensions at dirt/truck parks.

A Fuchs would be nice...can't remember the Fuel Cons or Maint requirements offhand, but in most campaigns I've been involved with, the PCs seem to acquire one at some point. Also, back to the civvie-style vehicles, the Mercedes Benz Gelandewagen would be a robust post-apocalypse touring vehicle, even if a bit of a maintenance queen.


dawg180 05-09-2003, 02:25 PM 4 and 6 wheel versions of the French VAB were always very popoular with our gaming groups, not to mention the LAV-25, also known by the players as the "SUV with a big gun"


TiggerCCW UK 05-18-2003, 07:28 AM The LAV 25 was always a popular choice with my players as well. Are any versions of it with a heavy tank type gun in service with the US army or marines at present? I think the Saudis are using a heavy one, but I'm not sure.


jester770 06-05-2003, 05:38 AM Sounds Interesting.

Some buddies and I came up with this very thing back in 91. The one draw back is that when you start playing and your character starts getting wounded or even killed well, it was a point of something to laugh about.

Then one of my freinds had a problem, it seemed that every time he used his weapon it would malfunction. <Everytime there was action his weapons would misfire. And he had a SMAW>

You guys said you needed weapons personel to round the team out. I know I'll regret it, never volunteer and here I am opening my big mouth. I know I'll end up humping extra. Oh well to late

As for myself as a character now here it goes with just a few of the main things:

Prior to Millitary:

Student with a smattering of high school Latin and two years of Spanish so a level 2 or 3 language ability.

Certified Welder and Cutter 4

1 Semester short of an Air Frame and Power Plant Certification from Northrope University, skill of 4

Civil Air Patrol Cadet 5 years:



Pilot <Fixed Wing>

Navigation <Land and Air>

Small Arms Rifle

Search and Rescue



1St Aid

Persuasion <I was in charge of recruiting>

Other: <School activities>

Clerical I worked in the Library

Persuasion <I recruted several people into the Marines>

Acting <I actualy took acting>

Forgery <working in attendance office "helping" freinds>

Endurance <cross country team>

U/A Melee <wresting and not just with cheerleaders >

Instruction <I was a teachers aid and assited at the night school>

Surfing <hey I am from SoCal and it was a PE course in school>


Small arms Held every billet in a Marine rifle squad, even was Company Gunny and Platoon Sgt for about a month.

Okay here are the billets, schools, jobs assignments I held that I can remember and held more than once or for any signifigant period of Time:

Rifleman <To include SAW and M203>


Weapons Instructor

Assitant Radioman

Helecopter Support Team

PLRS operator <EARLY large bulky and classified GPS>

Mountain Warfare school Summer and Winter Package <Winter ALOT of skiing, snowshoing, winter survival, endurance, navigation and fighting skills> <Summer package, rappeling, mountain climbing, hikling, rope use bridging etc>


Classified materials custodian


HumVee aand Tactical Vehicle Repair

Personel and Intel Clerk <S1 and S2>


Uinit Armorer

Scout Swimmer


Helcopter Assualt Unit and SOC unit.

Medical <You're around it you pick it up>

Forward Observer

Jungle Survival

Urban combat


Acting <try acting sobber in formation or comming through the gate. Always managed to talk my way out and keep my stripes>

Weapons systems trained on:




60mm Mortar

81mm Mortar

M9 9mm


Remington 870 12 guage


AT 4



M2 .50


Tow System <can load and set it up, never fired it.>

Post Millitary:

Police Academy

Security, Police and Corrections

Spanish <2 years college>

Russian <1 year college, 2 years of learning on own>

2 year degree anthropology<Archeology>

2 year degree hisotry

2 year degree Pilice Science

DOJ Certificate Criminal Proffiling

DOJ cert <short 1 course> Forensice Anthropology

2 years working as NP/Forrest ranger

Assitant Scuba Instructor

Small boat <rubber raft, fishing boat and small cabin cruiser class>


Shootomg <With a powerful cartridge, a scope and a well taken care of rifle things are even easier>

Pistol Shooting. I can still hit a moving target with the first shot in under a second.

Instruction Substitute teacher and assitant

Archeology, several courses and several digs

Ammunition reloading

Vehicle repair <a buddy and I buy repair and resell cars>

Navigation I live<d> in/near the desert,, getting to my favoriter place to shoot is no easy feat, and I hike regularly in the Sierras.

Fishing, how do yyou think I got the boat handling skills.

Hunting, in So Cal I at least see the animals I am after,

Parachute: I have 7 freefall jumps <all civilian>

Farming; Horse, Farming, Cattle raising, my family has a farm in Oregon and we raised beef cattle and a few other crops wwhich I helped for a year or two after I got out.

Leadership; Kids <younger people> always seem to look to me even when I would rather not have the resposibility. But, alas, when you are the only one with experience the burden is yours.

And scrounging, don;t even ask what I have been able to get.

Oh yeah and I'm a pretty decent cook too at home and in the field.

That is about it that I can recall, as we all know, there are alot of other things that make up each of those skills.

Now as for the other topics of this thread, I should really check this site more than once every 2 years.

A vehicle for the group.

I would suggest what we call a Baja Bug. An old model Volkswagen bug that has been stripped of alot of its excess items like windows and fenders. A beefed up suspension, a roll cage, larger tires and raising it.

I would also make the following alterations:

replace the gasoline engine with a similiar diesel engine from a Jetta or Rabbit <alot more power and torque and it is more fuel efficient than gasoline>

Adding a skid plate to the bottom, and armor platting in critical places. Installing a beefed up drive train and modifiying it to accept possibly a 4 wheel drive transmission like from a Jeep. Of course it should be a stick shift as well.

Other minor details: Dual battery similiar to the HumVee. Two hard points for MGs.

1 in the front passenger seat firng forward. a mount to handle an M60 class weapon.

The second hardpoint in the sunroof <or wwhere you cut a sunroof> a mount to accept one of the three, M2 .50 cal, MK19 or twin M240 mgs.

Mounting several police style sspot lights and one in the gunners mount.

Placing a fold down windscreen in two sections Once for the driver and one for the passenger. Of plexiglass.

A decent heating system

A second fuel tank of at least 12 gallons

Raised exhaust and air intake snorkel for fording deeper water

Oil Cooler and Transmission cooler

Second Vehicle:

Mid Sized Pickup truck with extended cab.

Diesel engine and 4X4 manual transmission

2 20 gallon tanks

Reinforced frames and beefed up and raised suspension with over sized tires

Armor in critical places

Jeep style fold down windscreen with plexiglass. <All glass removed>

Dual battery system

Power Winch

Roll Cage with metal tubing running the length of either side of the bed and an arch over the front and rear of the cab and another arch over the tail gate.

Canvas top to mount over the roll bars.

MG Hard Points in the following locations:

M240 mount in the front passenger seat for forward and limited lateral firing

Hard Point atop cab for .50 caliber class MG

Hardpoint on rear roll bar arch for M240 mount or twin M240 mount fir rear and side to side and forward obliq firng.

Robust rear end.axel assembly with gear ratios optimum for towing.

Tow hitch for millitary and civilian trailers.

Secondary radiator that can be isolated from the primary.

Engine oil cooler

Transmission cooler

Small civilian trailer for towing additional gear.

Of course these vehicles are for what I would do if the vehicles, resources and more importantly my buddy where there to help me do it. Of course in the T2K world we would be going with what we were able to beg borrow steal and make do with what were at hand.

Location in T2K

Let me see, 1997. NUTS! I lived near March AFB, until it was shut down and turned into a reserve facility it was the MAC HQ. Then I had Norton in the general area as well another target and even closer the Naval Weapons LAB in Norco. I knowfor sure that March was a target, but it was about 25 miles away with a small range of mountains between me and it, the same goes for Norton and although not as much distance between the LABs and my home there was a wide range of rollling hills and then a talller range of hills on on the facilittiess perimeter that are a few houndred feet high. With any luck they would sheild me from much of the blast and imediate radiation.

Then we have to consider would those facilities have been open still in the T2K scenario or not.

Another factor would be, would I stay here in a time of major world war where recruiters would turn a blind eye to previos disqualifying factors and the waiver process would be expedited.

I would most likely try to join my regiment so to speak wwhich would put me in the Middle East.

If I couldn't make it back into the Corps <the evil that you know vs. the evil yyou don't> Then there is a semi local NG Helo assault unit which I have been working on getting a waiver for a commission. <but they don't acceppt after market parts even if they were installed by Army techs.>

Now if I couldn't find myself a place in the green machine then I would do one of three things:

Make my way up North to the family farm along with a few compadres where we would live fairly decently and pherhaps make a trip up North on occasssion to make the Russian Bear Dance.

Or to stay localy and hide out in the Mountains and be a pain in the sside of the invading Mexicans.

Another posibility would be to make my way to one of the islands off the coast of California many of these have plenty of animals deer, sheep, mountain goat, wild pig, bison and marine life, and then there is fresh water and areas that can be farmed.

These islands are out of the way and large enough for a small group to hide faairly well. Alsso, alot of these islands are currently uninhabited and the odds of people being able/wanting to cross the 20+ miles of ocean to these islands is doubtful.

And as a plus to remaiin totaly undetected one could go to the Southern Channel islands which are naval ranges. These islands are off limits and are said to have large quantities of unexploded ordinanace from guns, missiles and aircraft. A deterent for some one to travel there if you chose that as your base. <And a plus if you take the risk to extract the explosives from the duds> A few parts of the islands have not been bombed and buildings of naval weahter stations etc still remain.

Well it was a good question. And just please don't put me on any system I would have to hump everything including the kitchen sink




Snake Eyes 06-08-2003, 09:57 AM Hey, folks! Haven't been around for a while, but now that I'm back I figure I'd toss my hat in the "Yourself-as-a-PC" ring. So ... what do I bring to the team? Not much beyond a warm body, an analytical mind, and another finger on the trigger. My dossier is as follows:

Civilian Male

Age: 32

Height: 191 cm

Mass: 108 Kg


STR: 5 - Big, but not quite so tough anymore.

AGL: 4/6 - Good aim & manual dexterity, but fails the wobbly test.

CON: 5 - Doesn't get sick too often, but could lose a few pounds.

INT: 8 - Borderline Mensa material.

EDU: 5 - Some college (and an ass-load of IT certifications), but no degree.

CHA: 7 - Gets by on charm and good looks. Still handy with the ladies.


Grew up in Anchorage, Alaska. Lived in a middle-class neighborhood under final approach to Elmendorf AFB -- home of Alaskan Air Command HQ (and a primary nuke target). Although an honor student, consistently performed below "alleged" potential. Secretary of student congress. Captain of rifle team. Manager of girls' varsity & JV soccer teams. Co-founder & charter member of Model UN team. Graduated high school in 1989, back when the Rooskies were still the badguys. Spent the summer as a marine wildlife sightseeing guide, then headed off to Washington, DC, for college. Was a finalist for the NROTC (Marine Option) scholarship, but that didn't quite pan out.

Term 1 - College/Slacker (1989-1993)

Initially had lofty ideas about joining the Foreign Service, but instead wound up triple-majoring in leisure studies, recreational pharmaceuticals and female anatomy. Coincidentally ran out of money and motivation right around the same time the University finally decided they'd seen enough.

Term 2 - Law Enforcement (1993-1997)

Spent four years in private sector law enforcement (held a Maryland state police commission while employed by an Australian-owned Real Estate Investment Trust). Supervised sixteen screw-ups with no interest in following a whole lot of rules. Briefly enrolled in a state certification program in fire/arson investigation before making the jump to IT.

Term 3/3.5 - IT Consultant (1998-Present)

Became a tech guru and headed to sunny California to find fame and fortune at the height of all that "dot-com" silliness. That was cool for a few years, but the market for IT consultants in the Bay Area has gone really soft and the jobs are few & far between. Now spends most of the day playing video games or brawling for scraps at the dumpster behind the 7-11 down the street (Oops -- just broke the first rule of "Fight Club").


Act/Bluff-2, Admin/Legal-4, Astronomy-1, Bargain-4, Business-2. Carousing-6, Carpentry-1, Chemistry-2, Computer-7, Cooking-3, Ground Vehicle (Wheeled)-3, History-2, Instruction-2, Interrogation-2, Interview-4, Language (English)-10, Language (Latin)-1, Language (Mandarin)-1, Language (Spanish)-2.Leader-2, Medical(First Aid)-2, Melee Combat (Armed)-1, Melee Combat (Unarmed)-3, Persuasion-4, Physics-1, Psychology-2, Recruiting-1, Research-4, SCUBA-1, Small Arms (Rifle)-2, Small Arms (Sidearm)-3, Small Boat-2, Survival-2, Swimming-4, Thrown Weapon-1,


SIG/Sauer P229

+ 3x10 rd mags .40 S&W (180 gr. Remington Golden Sabre BJHP)

Winchester Defender 1300 shotgun

+ 55 rd bandolier 12 ga. 2&3/4" 00 buckshot (Federal Tactical Load)

1984 Chevy S-10 Blazer 4x4 (Wear Value: 9)


jester770 06-17-2003, 11:47 PM AWWWW man! I didn't know we had to come up with our own equipment NUTS now I have to reroll.

Okay folks here is another question that was inspired by this original topic of ourselves as a character.

Could you and with people you know in your vicinity who would would join you and who would not be called up and deployed as members of the active, reserve or national guard or civil defense forces? <They can be in the millitary or reserves etc and be in a non deployable status, local law enforcement and emergency services do not count and could be members of your group.>

Myself I belive I could muster a force within just 4 hours to 28 hours depending on time and how well transportation netwworks remained <I am assuming severe traffic jams as a given>

Myself <skill wise I think I would end up as a character, something created by a munchkin and boarder as elite with my plethora of skills. I was just a regular mud rolling grunt though and I have the bad backm, knees, ankles, shoulders, and other ailments to back ip up ;>

2 Former Marine MPs both PG 1 vets with 8 years of civilian law enforment

1 former Marine Mortarman with 10 years of construction and plumbing experience, SCUBA of 6 surfing of 8

1 former Army mortarman with the 82nd, 4 years of Law Enforcement and computer skill at 9 and 4 years as an EMT

1 former Army 101st infantryman with 10 years of construction

1 retired Navy corpsman <20 years> and with 8 years of consctruction.

1 Navy Cropsman <1 tour> with a degree and certification as a physical therapist

1 former Navy Corpsman <1 tour> with time in a Recon unit, and civilian EMP/Paramedic

1 former Marine TOW gunner with 1 tour in a STA unit <Marine Sniper>

1 former Marine TOW, along with 1 year as an millitary auto repairman and an alternate MOS with school training as a small arms repairman. Civilian, Butcher 8 years

1 Marine mechanic, 1 year reservist and 3years working on a firing range. Horse riding 8, Animal handling/training 10 and veteraniarnas training at 5 with surgical experience-2 or 3

1 former Navy coxswain, computer 7

1 Former Marine radio intelligence NCO with 2 tours and 8 years of constrcution/carpentry.

1 NG Bradley driver, 6 years police, 12 years as mechanic with a skill of 10

1 2 tour Army NCO who spent time instructing close quarters hand to hand in Basic or AIT, mechanic of 10, electrical of 5 small boat of 9 and spent 10 years driving a big rig.

Okay that rounds out my local millitary trained members of my party.

There are a xouple of others but I would question if I would want them as part of my group.

Civilian or non millitary trained members:

1 Minning engineer no millitary and middle aged,

5 civilian police/security types:

1.) with auto driving and repair skill at 8 and a factory certified Glock, H&K and S&W armorer.

2.) Fire Arms and forgery, Spanish 10 <DON"T EVEN ASK!>

3.) Driving 9 motorcycle 9 <he drives rice rockets in races> small arms pistol 7, he is almost better than me. ALMOST.

4.) Mechanic 4, unarmed mellee 8 <he is small but he has never lost> construction 4, lets call it even and not mention his weapons scores.

2 60ish attorneys <provided they managed to survive the ravages of disedase, famine and other calamities

1.) Land Nav 10, small arms 6, chemistry 5electronics 6, electrical 6, computer 6, clerical 11, perssuasion 8 <former Millitary training 50 years ago: Heavy weapons 4, combat engineering 5, feild communications 4, demo 5> <all of the technical data he has and can do, as for the physical he could do about half on his own, but heavier work would require assitance or his instruction as some one else did the work.

2.) Admin 8, persuasion 10, computer 9, SCUBA 4, mechanic 4, small arms <rifle 4, pistol 2> , small boat 6 nav 6

1 Former Navy Surgical Nurse retired 60ish. Medical 6 with OR experience.

Yes people these are my freinds and family who live within a reasonable area and the PRIMARY skills they bring. This of course does not include the additional family members that they would bring with them, but all in all that would only add no more than 6 children uner 12 and 1 over and what, 4 or 5 wives with whatever skills they would bring, these skills would range from TV producer to assmbly line worker and secretary.

Now as for weaponry and vehicles IF we decided to work with just what we had available to us <Well what vehicles that would be of use>

6 4X4 trucks of assorted models

4 Jeeps or Jeep Like vehicles

3 additional 4X4 type cars

5 2 wheel drive pickups

3 motorcycles

3 zodiac inflatible rafts, 1 with a 8 person capacity, 2 with 4 person capacity

3 Bayliner cabin cruisers in the 24 foot range all trailerable

3 horses

Weaponry of Millitary Design:

9 M16 style weapons

4 AK47 variants

2 L1A1's

1 HK91

2 M1A1s

3 M1 Garands

1 Valmet M76 <I think>

3 SKSs

1 M1A1 Thompson SMG <Semi Auto Variant>

1 Mac 11 <9mm semi auto variant>

3 M1 Carbines

2 Ruger Mini 30s

5 Ruger Mini 14s

7 12 Guage Remington 870s and Mosberg 590s in the riot gun configuration.

1 Benelli semi auto

1 Spas 12 guage

1 Savage Heavy barrel scoped rifle in .300 Win Mag

1 Remington 700 tricked out into a sniper rifle

1 Remington 7mm turned into a sniper rifle

Civilian Rifles

30-30 class rifles-6

Misc centerfire bolt actions-9

.22 riffles- 1.5 per party member

Other shotguns including autoloaders, single and double barrels again 1.5 per party member

Millitary or Duty pistols: <Pistols or a regular size and with a caliber that is one of the standards for LAW Enforcmenet or Millitary use>

Semi auto:

.45 14

10mm 3

.40 6

9mm 29 <aprox>


.44 4

357/38 18

Other semi autos:

center fire 21

.22 11


Centerfire 7 <Most single action including 1 in 45-70>

Centerfire 4

As for other gear well we can all come up with enough gear for living and field/combat use.

And most of us millitary types feel in a time of confusion with new faces everywhere and green troops it would not be a difficult feat to toss on an old uniform with an officers bars and attempt to bluff one of the many green troops new to the area placed on guard. Further I and a few others I share a beer or three with talk about how gear is often abandoned or even destroyed when it can not or is to much of a chore to load and take back.

So, with a little luck and some fast talking aided by modern computers and color copiers I think I could whip up some orders and requsitions that even a seasoned supply Sgt would not give a second glance. Toss in a phone call from the Regiment/Division adjudants office warning of your arrival to ensdure everything goes smoothly and you could be in and out before they knew what happened. <Yes, when on active duty I actualy did similiar on a lesser scale.>

The above would work for basic supplies of field equipment and ratiions. Small arms ammo would have to be done with a little more care, waiting until the ammo tech is overrun with people trying to draw ammo, batteries and com gear, you have a slim chance as most of the gear is at the company level. Weapons, and heavy weapons would be best gained by acting as an officer intimidating recruits or sending them off on a working party and leaving one of your party as the weapons guard. Or if you are lucky enough to find some left unguarded either stacked or mounted on vehicles.

The problem I see for my group would be in gaining a resupply of ammo for heavy MG classes of weapons and other than by sheer chance of luck having anything other than the most primative of anti armor devices ie Molotov cocktails or using improvised shaped charges made from C4 that was gained from your supply runs.

So, on the honor system, who could come up with a group and how good do you think they would be?

Later folks



Harold Mayo 06-18-2003, 12:28 AM Wow...that's quite a group.

I wouldn't be the leader of such a group, but I could gather up a lot of people with a lot of skills.

Within four hours, I could be at a place where there would be a muster of former military and a lot of active LE types, all with special forces/special operations/SWAT experience. With them would be a large number of department-owned and personally-owned full-auto weapons ranging from MP5's (a lot of variants) to older M16's to M4's. There would be a lot of shotguns (Benellis and 870's, mostly), a dizzying array of handguns (Glocks of all sorts, P7M8's and M13's, custom 1911's and hi-power's, some Sigs, Kahrs as BUGs), and a handful of sniper rifles (pretty much all Remington 700's in .308).

I can't really count how many there would be off the top of my head but several would have long gun and handgun skills maxed out. I think that the group that I am thinking of would actually be short on practical skills and long on weapons and combat skills.

If I were given my choice of, let's say, 10 people who I know to form my group:

1. Weapons guy: Handgun and long gun skills of 9 or 10, Instruction 9 or 10, Stealth-related skills (actual stealthy movement and hiding, lock-picking, etc.) would be 8 or 9, SCUBA at 9 or 10, unarmed combat at 10, knife at 9 or 10, exceptionally high charisma. Only bad part about this guy is that old wounds and injuries, as well as age (about 50) are starting to get the better of him and he isn't as fast as he once was. He's still mean, though.

2. Another weapons guy: a protege of the above guy with slightly better physical scores because of relative youth but a couple of points lower in the weapons skills and not possessing the SCUBA and knife skills at all.

3. A jack-of-trades and friend: has moderate weapons skills similar to the above, as well as unarmed, has some mechanical skills, has a high charisma and good social skills and good contacts in all levels of local society.

4. A mechanic: 20 years of Army experience as a heavy equipment mechanic, 24 years of doing the same after retirement from the Army, grew up working on the same with his father on the farm...I think he qualifies for a maxed out mechanic skill as well as some electronic and electrical skills and some equipment operation. Has some weapons and gunsmithing skills. Physical scores are very poor, however.

5. A mechanic/civil engineer/electronics specialist: a degreed civil engineer with a PE, highly-mechanically inclined, highly skilled in electronics and electrical stuff, has a huge gun collection but not a lot of actual skill, familiar with military weapons from a tour in Vietnam but no current experience or practice, physical skills going down.

6. A civil engineer/hydrologist: another degreed civil engineer with a PE, a consultant, good physical scores from relative youth, good long gun skills and hand guns skills with civilian weapons, decently equipped with firearms, good mechanical skills, high intelligence (10), a lot of farming experience/background and experience with heavy equipment, excellent computer and electronic skills.

7. Another guy and friend: included because of friendship, this guy has some moderate weapons skills and mechanical skills and is a top-notch machinist but has no other real skills.

8. Another weapons guy: another protege of #1 but with one less level in all skills but with better physical scores because of age, well-connected in LE circles and also with an assistant SECDEF.

9. Private investigator: good stealth skills, good handgun skills, former/somewhat current bodybuilder with immense strength, good unarmed skills, good mechanical skills, good driving skills.

10. Another friend: good weapons skills and mechanical skills, good driving skills, excellent computer and electronic skills, drafting skills, good weapons collection.

Most of these are good friends, a couple are acquaintances, and one is actually just someone who I've only met a couple of times but who would come along with one of the other guys. Overall a decent mix with some weaknesses.

What I could REALISTICALLY gather up, though, is probably #2 through #7 and that's about it.


jester770 06-18-2003, 02:15 AM Yeah the realistic thoughts that hit kill your ideas sometimes. I know for my group I could probably add a couple of seals, another recon type and even a couple of SF guys. the problems though would be that the SEALS I do not trust and are to much into themselves, great guys and wonderfful proffesionaly but, since we aren't SEALS we are lesser and they would work together, but one is junior to the other and thus they would conflict there. The recon guy a bit of a loose cannon, aand a second recon guy worse and full of BS. I could also add a former Sgt Mag from SF but the problem would be, he was with SF when it first began, alot of knowledge but the ability has degraded. Then I could add a failry young Marine Sgt Mag and a Marine Master Sgt of Motor T along with close to a dozen teenagers he mentors as a recruit base.

I could also say the same for one of the above lawyers <yeah he is family> who is a scout master, heck we could come up with an entire scout troop however as a proffessional soldier I find it uneasy to put children on the line hence I ommitted them altogether, but if it came to an entire community then I could include them.

Harold tell me, do my ideas about aquiring millitary equipment sound to ballsy or what?

I know I could even aquire Hummers, Dueces, Five Tons and with luck a Wrecker and with alot of Luck an armored Wrecker. I have not mentioned anything armored as I have not driven one and can count on one hand the times I have been inside of one, but they can be had as well. It just taakes some expereie4nce and knowledge combined with being brash and luck.

And your aquiring of small arms, I intentionaluy ignored that part, thinking those weapons would be on duty and thus out of reach. Also, if your people were to make a break for safety when things went donw the drain big time you would want to do it on your donw time unless you were planning on taking the entire unit and perhaps your partner which would be akin to deserting your post.

Oh yeah, also per my group and my skills:

Myself and the retired Navy Corpsman both brew our own ale and beer, so that should win a few good people over to our side


Harold Mayo 06-18-2003, 09:44 AM Pretty ballsy, yes. In a SHTF situation, I have my doubts about how easy it would be to acquire any "military" equipment.

I've got three "ranges", I guess you could say, that range from realistic to somewhat fantasy that I could do.

The most fantastic is getting ANYONE that I have a personal relationship with to come with me. In this case, very unrealistic, I could have literally dozens of Class III weapons (many WWII vintage MG34s and MG42s, full-auto BARs, grease guns, and Thompsons as well as several M16 variants and H&K subguns) as well as some really well-trained guys. Like I said, this is largely fantasy.

The middle range, one that is could happen but is not likely, is the one that I mentioned in another post with the LEOs and such.

The realistic one is the one that I mentioned with the #2 to #7 guys. That scenario is more likely than any other as those people not only live near one another but are friends and family. I don't think that I could muster up anything more than a single MP5 in terms of full-auto weapons (a department-owned gun carried by a SWAT guy with him everywhere) but everyone could be armed with long guns (several AR15s, heavy-barreled Remington 700s, an M1A or two, a lot of various shotguns) and handguns (you name it, basically). Heavy construction equipment would be easy to come by as would shop facilities with cutting and welding equipment (goes into the nature of our businesses). Defensible dwellings would be difficult to come by but there IS a piece of property with a large house/cabin on it that is pretty isolated that might serve as a base...I just don't feel that it is any safer than any other location except for its remoteness. Four-wheel drive vehicles are owned by most of the persons but no "military" type things like Hummers. Overall, it wouldn't be a bad group. The skill sets are varied and there are some experts at a wide variety of things. The weapons skills are there, too. Fairly calm heads, several of which have been in armed confrontations in either a military or LE scenario, are present. In terms of 100% realistic, I think that I could come up with an acceptable little force for defensive actions and for survival. Offensive actions other than sniping would be a problem, though.


jester770 06-19-2003, 04:46 PM Yes, my ideas about "aquiring" heaviier vehicles and more apropriate weapons for combat are a touvh extreme and I would only use those methods in the most dire of straights.

I have the benefit of having several millitary facilities in my general area, and I also know how screwed up they can be so that I THINK I could take advantage of it. I know how the systems work, what papperwork is involved and have old copies that with the magic of modern color copiers and printers I am sure I can make a passsible set of forms and orders. Couple that with a phone call from the adjudants office to seal the deal.

Further, such places as railroad depots, NG armories and even DRMO <Defense Reutilization forgot what the M and O stand for> where millitary and DOD facilities basicaly turn in old, use, worn out or surplus equipment ranging from laptops to HumVees school buses copy papper and other items for sale and auction to the general public. These places although on government land and usualy bases are not always that well guarded. <A routine patrol coupled with an alarm system>

So, yes in desperate times, I would not be above out and out stealing. And in a combat zone with units in convoy or replenishing munitions I doubt they would ask for papperwork and double check before they refueled one of the 20 or 30 vehicles that are pulling in and out. Just jump in line and hold your hand out.

And I also know that the millitary is not overly concerned with saving for a raining day. Ammo and demo is easier dumped into the sea or burried in the field rather than try to turn it back in. Vehicle that break on the move are normaly abandoned and they may be salvaged later or scaveneged. Or they may just be left or destroyed so the enemy doesn't get them. The same goes ffor surplus supplies, I once had a free hand in a forward supply dump. Rather than pack everything else up and send it back to the ships the gear was burnt and then later bulldozed.

And as I mentioned, and a freind and I have actualy joked how easy it would be to do this.

Put on an old uniform along with an officers ensignia grab a vehicle like a white pickup <loose the liscence plates> and drive around a recruit training area of one base in particular. They recruits would be in the field away from most people who would be able to tell the difference or to verify your identity. Stop these recruit chew them out and take their weapons instructing them to have their Drill Instructor to come and get them. And you disapear POOF For someone who knows the system it does have a reasonable chance for success.

The same can be done at some of the weapons ranges. This time I would suggest posing as an armorer or an offficer with a bug up his ash.

Surprisingly units when drawing supplies the normal procedure is to just show up at supply show your ID card and then fill out the supply card signing for your gear and taking it back to your barracks. For the armory, it is pretty much the same of course they also issue a weapons card from the company commander.

Vehicles, well it is simliar to drawing basic equipment from supply. Go to the motorpool, either base or unit. Base one can use the excuse of being there to PM <preventative maintenece and cleaning> the units vehicles, there no ID check is done, for base, more civilian type vehicles, present your ID card and get the vehicle needed for the task, fill out the vehicle checkout sheet and and offf you go with a full tank of fuel.

Add the confusion of combat one could just pull up to a larger unit supply point and draw ammo and supplies.

As for the perspective of the area I am in Mexico would have invaded and I think the chaos would even greater so you could get away with even more.

Another way to aquire vehicles and supply would be to aquire a vehicle and mark it as a roadmasters vehicle. <Roasdmaster something akin to highway patrol on a base> Pull over the vehicle or convoy of your choice aand then bluff them or delay them under pretense eventualy impounding or apropriating the vehicles. The greener the personel the easier it is to get away with the plan.

OR one can just use no finesse and pull a quick raid on a supply point or transportation area. Of course the would incure its own risk as they would be alerted from the begining and your time would be limited to gain whatever items were quick and easily grabbed before a reaction team assembled to blow the crap out of you for attacking them. Here the risk of gunplay and persuit is a sure thing with chances off escape reduced.

Then another method would be to pose as a regulat recruit, stand in line and you'll get an issue, as for no ID card, and not being on a roster, that happens all the time with ommissions on reports etc.

Show up at a base where a unit is have weapons qualification. And report to say the mess section posssing as a Pvt who has been assinged mess duty. Or for other range duty. When the group goes to a class, chow etc volunteer as weapons/gear guard. That group leaves everything behind with you watching, Up pulls a van and inside goes a platoons worth of weapons, webbing, helmets, flack vests, maybe packs, maybe 1 combat load of ammo aand of course you.

Of course the above involves waiting and timmming before you could pull it off but it is possible.

These are so many other means of aquiring equipment. Show up on a battle field after the fighting is over and pick up what is left. A good means of gaining small arms rather than vehicles since most vehicles would be damaged.

These are just one of dozens of ways of aquiring items, other could include robbbing a gunshop or shooting range, especialy those that have full auto weapons. Robbing a NG armory not to difficult, in T2K with them amnned would make it more difficult. Or robbing/stealing a police car. In my neck of the woods it ias not uncommon to see units with both a rifle and a shotgun or more iin the front gun rack. If the unit belongs to someone on one of the many specialty uits you can gain anything from a sniper rifle based on a Remington, M16 variant, MP5 variant or other special weapon usualty one of the many HK rifles or a Styer in addition to ammo, magazines, assault vest and heavier body armor and posssibly even flashbangs.

The question is not really small arms because if you do not have the supply train that a modern millitary uniot has available to it then your automatic fire would burn up all your ammo in no time. Especialy if yourf troops were not well trained and expeirienced in their use. Even those with LE backgrounds though they could handle SMGs and assault rifles well they woud be at a distinct disadvantage when it came to heavier weapons like belt fed light general purpose and heavy machinguns. Let alone anti tank weapons like mines and rockets.

And again we encounter the problem of what to do about having a punch heavier than small arms. OR would you avoid at all costs encvounters with anything heavy,. Unless you setv up an well laifd ambush wwith mines.

Just somethoughts.




recon35 09-22-2004, 08:06 AM Well, let's see. I grew up on a "gentleman's farm" of 60 acres with 20+ head of cattle and a bunch of d@^n chickens, so I know a little about that. I was a boy scout and later loved to backpack so I know a little about that. I went to the Citadel for 3 years, intent on a commision in the Army, but got the boot for too many AWOLs to see my now wife, which, coupled with a health condition that arose, and the general draw down of the military (this was 1989-90) I never got the commision, though I did pick up some small unit leadership stuff, as well as basic small arms familiarization. I was a probation/parole agent for 8 years, so I've done more in the small arms and arrest techniques (I was also on the special operations response team - more training!). I've also partially restored several 67-72 Chevy pickups, so I know a bit about the pre-fuel injected engines and could probably do some field repairs if needed. Obiously, another "jack of all trades, master of none!"


dawg180 09-26-2004, 11:58 AM Alright, my last post on this thread was TWO YEARS ago, so it is time for a better update. Besides, I am having a terrible allergy day so sitting in the A/C on the computer seems the best solution.

Age: 28

STR: 5 (look pretty decently built even when I don't work out)

AGI: 5 (average at any dexterity based stuff)

CON: 4 (I get sick quite a bit- just colds and crap, but it still happens)

INT: 8 (My parents said if I even knew my IQ I would get a complex)

EDU: 8 (got a 3.6/4 GPA in undergrad and grad and didn't barely study)

CHA: 5 (can have a rapier wit but also a bit of a mean streak that evens it out, good presentation skills)


Architecture (Engineering): 5 (maybe closer to a 6 in specific fields)

Small Arms (Rifle): 3

Small Arms (pistol) 2

Gunsmithing: 1 (can diagnose problems/fix AR-15, 1911, some FAL stuff)

Swimming: 2

Wheeled Vehicle: 4

Tactics: 1

Persuasion: 4 (lots of presentations, interviews for my job)

Language (Spanish): 1

Instruction: 2 (Was a teaching assistant in college, but not a great one)

Music: 3 (can play guitar, bass, trumpet, a little piano)

Computer: 2

Wow, guess I don't really know all that much once I look at it!

Personal weapons if the SHTF:

AR-15 (either M16A1 clone or M4 flattop with red dot sight)

Colt 9mm 1911


TR 09-26-2004, 07:29 PM Don't fool yourself, the one amusing thing about Twilight is minimial skills go a LONG way...

Looking at your examples:

Architecture/Engineering: Building structures, bridges, etc is a big plus when the infrastructure of a country goes south...

Small Arms (Rifle/Pistol): Using firearms, always useful!

Gunsmithing: Even rudimentry analysis of firearms problems and basic assembly of parts is a skill most folk don't have.

Persuasion: Always a useful skill when neogtating with military and civilian folk alike.

Spanish: Well you speak more Spanish than me!

Instruction: ALWAYS useful as there are plenty of people you could train on any of the above.

Music: People underestimate this skill but when the batteries die on your radio how else are you going to get music? A little thing like that goes a long way...

It's all about what would be in demand in Twilight stateside where a lot of us would be during 1996/1997 when the game history took place.

Until Later



dawg180 09-27-2004, 03:12 PM Stateside 96/97 would have put me in sophmore year of college in the architecture program at U of I getting crushed by allnighters and taking small arms marksmanship MILSCI 113 as a 1 credit hour elective. I could field strip that M16 faster than anyone in the class (1 min. 46 seconds on my first try with 1 minute to get the damn handguards off- I would have made the drill team!) and was a damn good shot considering I had NEVER fired a firearm (SSGT Powell didn't believe me when I told him that).

Man, I would have been a combat engineer during the draft so fast my head would have spun!

Oh, and by T2K V2.2 rules my skills are pretty damn good with the attributes averaging out and all, but thanks for the confidence boost TR!


TR 09-27-2004, 09:44 PM Oh, and by T2K V2.2 rules my skills are pretty damn good with the attributes averaging out and all, but thanks for the confidence boost TR!

My pleasure... those with skills need not worry, most of us are jacks of all trades, know a little a bit about several but not all about one... sometimes it takes a different perspective to put things in perspective. In Twilight, most folk would fall into this category and a lot of communities would be like that to be honest.

Until Later



TiggerCCW UK 09-29-2004, 03:42 AM Nice to see this is still getting replies. Any one out there who isn't on it? I never did publish stats for myself, so I'll give it a go now;

Str : 6

Agi : 4 - Reasonably agile, but I carry a couple of old injuries which can slow me down

Con : 4 - I'm in reasonable shape, but have asthma

Int : 7

Edu : 6

Cha : 8 - I can talk to anyone about anything and usually get away with it - comes from working as a bar man for too long.


Hunting Bow : 3 - I am a reasonable archer, and with a bit of practice could bring this up slightly higher

Heavy Weapons : 1 - I've done some work with the 66 LAW and .50

Melee Armed : 3 - I fenced in the All Ireland open a few times, but it was a long time ago

Melee Unarmed : 4 - I worked bars and doors for a long time and I can look after myself if I have to

Mechanic : 1 - I can change a tyre, check the oil etc

Pistol : 2 - never did a lot of pistol work

Rifle : 5 -I used to shoot a lot on a competitive basis, ranked 7th in NI, and worked as an NRA coach for a couple of summers

Thrown weapon : 2

Horsemanship : 1 I've ridden a few times and could probably put a saddle on a horse

Mountaineering : 5 I used to be a regular climber, but work gets in the way now

Swimming : 4 - I taught in a watersports centre for a while

Gunsmith : 1 - I can strip clean and repair weapons tha I am familiar with

Small Boat : 3 - See swimming

Stealth : 3 - I'm fairly quiet, but have to suppress sneezing fits at some really awkward moments

Wheeled Vehicle : 2 - Not much of a driver

Biology : 1 - Never really liked this at school

Chemistry : 2 - The only science I did like

Computer : 3 - Not too bad with computers, but don't ask me to programme them

Medical : 3 - I've been a qualified first aider for 15+ years, and have used it on many occasions - anything from burns to stab wounds

Instruction : 4 - I wanted to be a teacher for a long time, worked as a canoeing and sailing instructor, a shhoting coach and train people for my company

Language : French : 2 - I had some french customers last week and was able to understand them fairly well

Persuasion : 6 - See charisma

Fishing : 3 - I usually catch a few when I'm out

Navigation : 6 - I have a very good sense of direction and used to orienteer a lot

Observation : 4 - I'm pretty good at spotting things

Bit of a mixed bag there, its up to yourselves whether you think I'm an asset to the party or not.

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