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Old 07-22-2019, 11:45 PM
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Raellus Raellus is online now
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It's pretty clear that I'm not going to change your mind, but I'd still like to respond to your latest round of arguments and supporting evidence.

Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
This not a case of the Germans invading Poland as they are already in Poland, and they are in Northern Poland were the German action is.
I thought the debate was about whether it is plausible that the Germans resume offensive action in Poland, in 2001, to liberate/annex former (i.e. pre-1945) German territory.

If your point is that German units already occupying Polish soil c.2001 are likely to continue doing so, there's no dispute. In 2001, large military units are tied to the land in ways they haven't been for centuries. If German units were safely ensconced in W. Poland, they would probably remain there. However, according to Going Home, no German units are on Polish soil as of November 2000.

Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
From NATO Vehicle Guide 1 and NATO Combat Vehicle Handbook 2 for German divisions in 2000

29th Panzer Division (3,000 troops, 24 Leopard 2): Northern Poland
6th Panzergrenadier Division (2,000 troops, 12 Leopard 2): Northern Poland
21st Panzergrenadier Division (1,600 troops, 5 Leopard 2): Northern Poland
What in-universe date is giving for those deployments? Summer 2000? Winter 2000-2001? Later? That info would help.

Going Home gives unit locations as of Nov. 2000, and is more specific, identifying cities as opposed to vague regions. Your sources and Going home also differ as to the locations themselves, as Going Home has all three German divisions located in Germany as of Nov. 2000.

29th PD in Lubeck (Germany, post 1945)
6th PGD in Hamburg (ditto)
21st PGD in Bremen (ditto).

Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
Also in East Germany.

27th Panzer Division (5,000 troops, 12 Leopard 2): Beeskow, East Germany
2nd Panzergrenadier Division (6,000 troops, 5 Leopard 2): Leipzig, East Germany
4th Panzergrenadier Division (3,000 troops, 14 Leopard 2): Plauen, East Germany
28th Panzergrenadier Division (1,500 troops, 10 Leopard 2): Zwickau, East Germany
211th Panzergrenadier Division (5,000 troops, 6 Leopard 2): Altenburg, East Germany

Also from NATO Vehicle Guide 1 all independent battalions and regiments units assigned to III German Corps, most of VI German Corps, and half of II German Corps in East Germany and Northern Poland
You didn't state your point that the above list is supposed to support, but I assume you're arguing that the Bundeswehr of 2001 has adequate combat power to mount a major offensive into western Poland (part of Germany pre-1945) in order to seize and hold territory that was, prior to the Cold War partition, part of Germany (at least, under the Nazi regime).

Fair play, but what about the Soviet and Polish units in western Poland, c. 2001? Again, I refer you to the map I made from unit dispositions from Going Home. The German force you listed is opposed by a roughly equal, if not numerically/materially superior force of Soviet and Polish units. There's nothing near the 3-to-1 attacker-to-defender ratio conventional military wisdom holds as highly desirable for a mounting successful offensive operation.

Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
And from Going Home

Ex-Soviet 94th Cavalry Division (800 troops): Beeskow, East Germany
I'm not sure why you included this one ex-Soviet unit so I can't really comment. However, the presence of marauder units on German soil reinforces my point that the German gov't/military has more than enough problems to deal with at home before considering a largely symbolic land-grab further east. For example, according to Going Home, the Soviet 30th GMRD is in Pirna, just southeast of Dresden. From Going Home,

"4000 infantry, 18 AFVs. After its commander was killed, the executive officer of the 30th, V. I. Renko, took command, and began to set himself up as a local warlord in southern Germany, operating out of Pirna, southeast of Dresden. Fifteen of the unit's AFVs and about half of its men remain under his control, the remainder are presently operating as scattered bands of marauders in the area within 40 kilometers of Dresden."

This is the sort of thing that would need to be dealt with before any offensive into W. Poland could take place.

Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
And GDW did miss a lot of German units which are likely to exist in T2K
That's a whole different can of worms, with issues of canon v. GM discretion, the subjectivity of individual GM's "likely to exist" lists, etc.

If you want to have a bigger [than canon], more nationalistic, more aggressive Bundeswehr invading W. Poland in 2001 to restore parts of Grossdeutchland, then go for it. I don't begrudge you that artistic license. My point is simply that T2K canon doesn't support such an offensive, and I try to tie my T2KU as closely to canonical sources as I can. I say tomato, you say tomato. It's all good.
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
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