The 40th Infantry Division

[Enfield]

I'd appreciate some feedback or thoughts from others about this unit.

I have a group of players who are interested in playing out the fate of people attached to this unit. I have no copy of Howling Wilderness only the US Army Vehicle Guide. I had been thinking of placing them generally between Bakersfield and Oxnard, the general N-NW area beyond LA.

A few questions I'm wondering about:

1. How insurmountable would it be to have the more rural/country areas produce useful crops?

2. Would it be possible to get a desalinzation plant, power plant and some factories going in any of the smaller urban areas north of LA?

3. With the huge amount of large roads around that area, and fuel being short, would it be reasonable to use scouts using bicycles or horses to avoid unnecessary fuel loss? (I was thinking they could use solar powered or wind up radios to save on batteries) If they used this kind of means they could also observe the roads without having to be on them.

4. If the game began in 2000, what would the numbers of refugees, scavengers and marauders/deserters be like?

5. The number of tanks/light tanks/engineering vehicles is around 24. What numbers are there likely to be for HMMWVs, FAVs, APCs, artillery, helicopters, trucks?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

1. How insurmountable would it be to have the more rural/country areas produce useful crops?

San Joaquin valley.... Very easy if there is water. Bakersfield and Tulare grow just about anything. I have an Aunt there.

Originally Posted by Enfield

2. Would it be possible to get a desalinzation plant, power plant and some factories going in any of the smaller urban areas north of LA?

It is a matter of scale. Windmills spinning and making 12v from alternators is pretty easy stuff. If you want 110v at 60hz another thing entirely. If you're the guy with electric lights, air conditioning, and cold beer expect trouble from criminals and dirty politicians most quick.

Originally Posted by Enfield

3. With the huge amount of large roads around that area, and fuel being short, would it be reasonable to use scouts using bicycles or horses to avoid unnecessary fuel loss? (I was thinking they could use solar powered or wind up radios to save on batteries) If they used this kind of means they could also observe the roads without having to be on them.

If you are able to find tires for the bikes or feed for the horses. Neither is being made alot of.

Originally Posted by Enfield

4. If the game began in 2000, what would the numbers of refugees, scavengers and marauders/deserters be like?

thousands.... LA is over 8 million in the 80's... the State .... 20 million?

Originally Posted by Enfield

5. The number of tanks/light tanks/engineering vehicles is around 24. What numbers are there likely to be for HMMWVs, FAVs, APCs, artillery, helicopters, trucks?

T2K's great failing is that the material gave how many tanks and AT weapons a unit had and failed miserably in the real reapers.... mortar and artillery tubes.

The number of vehiles a unit has or might have is driven by the type of unit itself.... A U.S. Armor company would have 4 tanks per platoon... but the HQ would have an M577 and probably an M113...... plus CUCVs for the 1SG to get chow and supply to go get everything else. Light Infantry, nothing, they rely on their Battalion, Regiment, Brigade, and Division for motor transport. This gets wierder and different from Division to Division as not all MTOE is the same across Big Army.

[Enfield]

Thanks for the replies, those are helpful.

Yeah I am not sure what they would have in the motor pool or armory, so I guess I'm kinda guessing at that.

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

What I'm trying to figure out is this: how many of all that would be left? The 40th is stated to have 3,000 troops left and about 24 IFVs which include a couple of M728s. For stuff like this, what have you done?

I was thinking of removing maybe all but one or two helicopters due to fuel shortages, and maybe a single battery of howitzers and rockets kept for a desperate emergency. Then cutting the number of ground ops battalions to five, and giving them smaller numbers of APCs or scout vehicles and having the rest be HMMWVs or converted civilian vehicles.

As I say though, I'm curious about what others have done.

[pmulcahy11b]

In general, I disagree with the small amount of armored vehicles that canon gives the various divisions, as well as the foreign vehicles they would be operating, The canon also dropped the ball on delineating the unarmored vehicles, lightly-armored vehicles, engineer vehicles, missile carriers, etc, etc, etc.

They also might have put in notes that the divisions in question's personnel may not be using their countries' weapons and equipment, that the vehicles may not all be operable to fuel shortages and a lack of spare parts, and may be damaged but operable.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

In general, I disagree with the small amount of armored vehicles that canon gives the various divisions, as well as the foreign vehicles they would be operating, The canon also dropped the ball on delineating the unarmored vehicles, lightly-armored vehicles, engineer vehicles, missile carriers, etc, etc, etc.

They also might have put in notes that the divisions in question's personnel may not be using their countries' weapons and equipment, that the vehicles may not all be operable to fuel shortages and a lack of spare parts, and may be damaged but operable.

I suspect that that is because of the inspirational material. Post apocalyptic flm and literature often depicts characters endlessly walking (The Road, Swan Song) or driving jerry rigged civilian vehicles (The Stand, The Walking Dead). I remember when I had my first Twilight 2000 experience, the GM was a bit frustrated that we were doing too well--that we secured stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, water purification, etc, and simply ventured from a safe haven we had acquired to gather materials or other survivors.

I think that the idea of a unit having a well maintained APC or IFV is an affront to the body of inspiration, therefore. And the troops are supposed to fall apart, abandon their position, civilization needs to collapse.

This is why I'm thinking that California presents interesting challenges and why I asked about agriculture and industry as well as population migration, to figure out what is possible.

So what would yoru recommendations be?

[Olefin]

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

[Louied]

From the California Military Museum

http://www.militarymuseum.org/40thORBAT94.html

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Enfield

I suspect that that is because of the inspirational material. Post apocalyptic flm and literature often depicts characters endlessly walking (The Road, Swan Song) or driving jerry rigged civilian vehicles (The Stand, The Walking Dead). I remember when I had my first Twilight 2000 experience, the GM was a bit frustrated that we were doing too well--that we secured stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, water purification, etc, and simply ventured from a safe haven we had acquired to gather materials or other survivors.

I think that the idea of a unit having a well maintained APC or IFV is an affront to the body of inspiration, therefore. And the troops are supposed to fall apart, abandon their position, civilization needs to collapse.

This is why I'm thinking that California presents interesting challenges and why I asked about agriculture and industry as well as population migration, to figure out what is possible.

So what would yoru recommendations be?

Keep in mind that its one thing to be in Central Poland which was fought over and nuked over and over and over - its another to be in the area from San Francisco to Bakersfield - there was some fighting at the south and a few nukes - but not even close to the devastation you would see, for instance, in Manchuria, Northern China, Poland, western Czechoslovakia or Germany

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

10% of the equipment and 50% of the manpower at best.

The TOE (Tables of Organizational Equipment) to whih there is MTOE and BTOE for Modified Tables of Organizational Equipment and Basi Tables of Organizational Equipment.

Maybe this will help? THIS

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

10% of the equipment and 50% of the manpower at best.

The TOE (Tables of Organizational Equipment) to whih there is MTOE and BTOE for Modified Tables of Organizational Equipment and Basi Tables of Organizational Equipment.

Maybe this will help? THIS

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

Scroll down the list....All of them are hyperlinks to each type of unit. Reading carefully in the print you will see exactly how many vehicles are assigned and to whom.

The reason that isn't so easy to answer is that there are different MTOEs for different Aviation units, and that is the same for all of them.

Light Utility Battalion
1 HQ Company and 4 Aviation Companies.

HQ Company
16 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
1 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
3 x 2 1/2-T Trk

Aviation Company
8 UH-1H
6 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
9 x 2 1/2-T Trk
6 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
1 x 5-T 6x6 Wrkr
2 x Trk Forklift

2. MISSION/CAPABILITIES/SECTION I.

a. Provides command, control, supervision, and planning of
operations for the Reserve Component Light Utility Aviation
Battalion.

b. Provides utility helicopter elements for rapid employment
as a part of the combined arms force.

c. Provides unit level personnel service and logistical
support for all organic or attached units.

d. See the appropriate TOE Section I for a complete list of
capabilities and limitations of these units.

3. ASSIGNMENT. Organic to the Corps Aviation Group, TOE 01410A.

4. PERSONNEL.

a. Personnel strength for this organization is as follows:

TOE DESIGN DOCUMENTED DIFFERENCE

01456A000 N/A 80 N/A
01457A000 X 4 N/A 90 N/A

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

The problem with answering is......the MTOE is different for Battalions and Companies due to the type of Division these were built to be a part of..

40th is what type of Infantry Division? With all the Mechanized Battalions I would have to surmise it is an ersatz Mechanized Infantry Division (Minus)... Lacking alot of support units and its Armor Battalions.

Assuming Mechanized Infantry.

Where are the Two and supposed to three Brigade HQ units and Division Support Brigade HQ?


bah! damn this forum software formatting.

I'll do it in Word and make a PDF so it is possible to read it.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Thanks for the replies, those are helpful.

Yeah I am not sure what they would have in the motor pool or armory, so I guess I'm kinda guessing at that.

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

Skimmed through thread so maybe I missed it where this was pointed out but The 40th ID in California (ex 40th TD) is not the prewar CA NG 40th ID. I'm assuming thats the prewar order of battle for the 40th and that the 40th TD would be somewhat different given the situation in which it was formed.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by shrike6

Skimmed through thread so maybe I missed it where this was pointed out but The 40th ID in California (ex 40th TD) is not the prewar CA NG 40th ID. I'm assuming thats the prewar order of battle for the 40th and that the 40th TD would be somewhat different given the situation in which it was formed.

This is true according to canon. Apparently one brigade is left in Austria in '98 and the others form the nucleus for a Reserves call up, so you're quite right, who knows what it might be made up of. I welcome speculation.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Enfield

This is true according to canon. Apparently one brigade is left in Austria in '98 and the others form the nucleus for a Reserves call up, so you're quite right, who knows what it might be made up of. I welcome speculation.

The 40th that is in CA right now is made up of excess personnel that was brought home from Europe (with the 1st brigade left in Europe) and then rebuilt with new personnel from the West Coast and equipped with whatever could be found which is why it had such a grab bag of equipment even when you look at the tanks it has - including using engineering vehicles as tanks

Which means it could literally be made up of anything - including vehicles from Littlefield's collection