Molle gear vs Old Y or H harness with belt and ruck gear.

[Abbott Shaull]

Okay, I have a question for some of the people who have been in the US military recently. When I was in the military MOLLE gear was still in testing. I know what I have read about the early version that were in testing, it was suppose to be superior to the old Y and H harness and belt set up. With the use of vest to disperse equipment, what I have seen of the various type of vest out there in the media looks as the ammo pouches are smaller and more disperse than the old ones that held 3 M-16 clips.

Also with this new system the old ruck and large ruck were suppose to be replace with new packs. With the old set up you had one large pack as well as butt-pack. With the new system the large pack was suppose to have main pack, and smaller detachable pack as well allow to keep the butt-pack.

Just wonder primarily about the packs and other details. If you don't want to post on the board, the feel free to use the email.

Thanks in advance.

Abbott

[HorseSoldier]

The MOLLE pouches are a big improvement. The ruck system is a POS, in my opinion.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The MOLLE pouches are a big improvement. The ruck system is a POS, in my opinion.

I was issued the old Y harness system back in the early 90s. I remember we'd scrounge around looking for the older H harness system, as it was much more comfortable. Never played with MOLLE gear, though.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah, when I was in they had Y and H harnesses mixed in. I was issued the Y harness, but I could see where the H harness would work.

The thing that surprises me about the Molle system was it like 1980 something when they were supposedly testing in various units including some sub-units of the 1st Cavalry. I quite surprise it took until 9-11 for it be so widely issue. Especially since many Special Operation units seemed to love and improve upon the system.

It one of the reason of why as GM, I didn't mind if someone wanted to use this system over regular LBE since, it was testing and to throw a wammy into the party.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The MOLLE pouches are a big improvement. The ruck system is a POS, in my opinion.

I agree with that. I liked the MOLLE system as long as you didn't have a M203set up. They had no room from 40mm shells. I had to put my magazine pouches on the last loops on the bottom just to have room for the 40mm pouches and it still only carried like 7 or 8 40mm shells. I usually ended up wearing the old school grenadier vest over the MOLLE vest instead, and that solved the probelm. My last year in I switched to a different battalion that gave more leeway on gear, so I bought the old school Y harness since I still had the M203. I found it was just a pain in the ass and liked to get tangled up. I never got to liking it. The MOLLE and LBE vest where way better as a M16 gunner only. Now the MOLLE pack, that just sucked. Those plastic frames broke on a few guys packs and they never felt right. I bought a large ALICE pack when I had the chance and liked it a lot better. Lots of guys always wanted to buy it off me. I must have bought one of the few ones the PX had, so I gave it to someone when I got out.

[Abbott Shaull]

Ah thanks. Now I understand why it took 15-20 years to get it to the troops in general and why Special Forces and Rangers had modified the system heavily since it first came out. The pack for the MOLLE seems to be one downside that probably help keep the system from distribution Army and Marine Corps wide for several reason. Then again looking at LBE with H or Y harness, pistol belt, and the units flavor of rucksack with metal frame hadn't change much except for improvements with the ruck and frame over the years. Lot of it not much different with the exception of the material pieces were made out of over a couple generation of troops.

Yeah being a 203 gunner with the old equipment it was one of the perks with the vest, and with the MOLLE system it seemed too busy for the M203 gunner. I also know one of the real world reason why they didn't roll out the MOLLE system before 9-11 was the issue that everyone in unit knew where certain items would be on the old LBEs. Medical pouch, flash light, ammo pouches were fairly standard locations where with the there was the worry with the MOLLE troops would move stuff around to where they were comfortable.

[jester]

We also forget the issue of budget, which would have also hampered the aquisition of new items durring the 90s when alot of developement especialy for smaller items was just not there.

[HorseSoldier]

For T2K purposes it's probably also worth remembering that the early version of the Molle ruck used some weird single point attachment to the LBV at the waist, instead of a conventional waist belt (so the weight of the ruck was partially carried on your pistol belt/LBV instead). That set up apparently caused a bunch of Marines lower back injuries during initial fielding (besides lacking durability in the frame), and made use of the MOLLE Fighting Load Carrier obligatory, limiting alternate LBE options like Rhodesian rigs and such. I'm not sure how that rucksack set up was supposed to work with IBA or other body armor options, either, though it may not have been contemplated during R&D that far back.

[headquarters]

I must admit that a good H yoke with all the padding extras available on the shoulders and the web belt was better than an Y - but it seemed to be a little bit flimsier and more liableto get tangeled up than the Y yoke .

We originally got issued X yokes similar to the ones issued in the Korean war .This was sturdy gear ,but not very comfortable nor very flexible in applications.They then issued a Norwegian made kit that was a vest with some modular pockets and some sewn on ones .It was more comfy , but the sice of the pouches made laying prone inconvenient .As things tend to drag out in the army regarding getting new kit I jumped of the supply-train here and got myself a south African rig. Great for patrols etc with a gazillion pouches all sown on the kit and straps etc to adjust in many fashions .But again , to many and too big pouches .I also tried an Israeli rig that in effect is pretty close to the SA one .In between I tried the Y and H yokes
In the end I settled on a commercially available "BlackHawk Tac v-1" vest .Sewn on pouches and something like the MOLLE -ish lops on the back to fasten gear that I only ever use to attach the LFR /radio pouch.

It has got a web belt module that I use to attach the big pouches so in the end I would say that I prefer the "V" over both the X,Y and H

[Abbott Shaull]

I think issues with the pack seem to be much larger problem that the people who wanted the switch to the MOLLE gear they were trying to solve before fielding system wide. Budget issue probably kept the R and D on that aspect limited. With the wide spread re-issuing of gear it sounds like the Army and the Marine Corps had been in process of acquiring the gear, but R and D wanted to fix the pack.

I would go to say that because the events of 9-11 and the people who had created the gear who had proclaim the next best thing to the wonder bra and what not. The military had so many other issues with lack of supplies of other important items and they knew it. Having these on hand, and still out of troop hands, when other important item were still far shorter. It sounds like it was push out, just to be able to say they were trying to equip the troops with the best equipment.

It the one thing I have always thought of the MOLLE system, especially SAW gunner set up. Pouches too big in location where laying in the prone would be an issue.

Interesting note it seems when the MOLLE Vest was issue to replace the old ALICE gear that much of the gear such as ammo pouches, canteens weren't issue, the troops used the old ALICE attach to the new vest. So that answer one of my question in that the old butt-pack probably were used too...

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

It the one thing I have always thought of the MOLLE system, especially SAW gunner set up. Pouches too big in location where laying in the prone would be an issue.

The nice thing about MOLLE is the flexibility to reposition pouches where they work for the individual, though with some stuff like belted ammunition or the 40mm rounds mentioned earlier you get more into "least worst" than "best" sometimes.

It is really nice to be able to rework the kit beyond the basic rifleman/SAW gunner/medic whatever sets they issued. Building an ALICE rig suitable for mounted operations in Humvees (especially up armors with all the extras we cram in those vehicles before people even get into them), for instance, is tricky, but its easy with MOLLE.

Interesting note it seems when the MOLLE Vest was issue to replace the old ALICE gear that much of the gear such as ammo pouches, canteens weren't issue, the troops used the old ALICE attach to the new vest. So that answer one of my question in that the old butt-pack probably were used too...

The adaptor panels seemed to be used more in the early days, but there's still stuff issued that is set up for ALICE and doesn't have purpose built MOLLE containers. My current TA-50 in the AK NG includes a two quart canteen and arctic canteens that don't have MOLLE pouches. I use my own vest and pouches, but my guys with the issue stuff are running a mix of ALICE LBVs and MOLLE FLCs. Pre-deployment that would all change but if we ended up in a come as you are kind of war today the guys in my section would be running all sorts of mixed and matched kit.

[perardua]

Here's a related question: Do people have a preference for belt order style webbing or assault vest/chest rig type arrangements?

My personal preference is for webbing, though when wearing Osprey I attached my pouches directly to the vest for ease of carriage. I have several different issue vests, and all of them stay at the back of my locker where they belong.
The overall feeling in the British forces often seems to be that while assault vests are obviously excellent for operating from vehicles and the like, any time you are likely to do any kind of foot operation, the webbing comes straight back out.
Even the PECOC programme that is revamping all our personal equipment and clothing is sticking with a belt webbing system as the primary method of load carrying, although the pouches will be compatible with the body armour system.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah, that what I was wondering. The vest seems like making the Mechanized/Motorized units where you have to get in and out a lot more rapidly than before. For ground pounders, it seems the vest is good idea to distribute weight, but seems the old ALICE type gear would be be what many would like to use.

As for the ability to move things around to suit the end-user. It one of those things it depend how anal retentive the Officers and NCOs that in the Command. There are some items I agree that should be kept at the same spot, but on the other hand somethings should be able to move around for the individual comfort.

[jester]

Something else to consider, in the world of T2K supply, resupply and spares would also be worn out, so what you had in the begining of the conflict may not be what you have at the end of the conflict.

[headquarters]

Maybe , in the end , you would only have your mags and maybe a few bits like pers med kit,bayonet etc . ( in a T2K scenario )

A vest with a gazillion pouches might not be needed anymore.

A simple belt with mag pouches on it and maybe a load carry poach would be all that would be needed.

?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by headquarters

As things tend to drag out in the army regarding getting new kit I jumped of the supply-train here and got myself a south African rig. Great for patrols etc with a gazillion pouches all sown on the kit and straps etc to adjust in many fashions .But again , to many and too big pouches.

I have a South African assault vest. Very comfy and it breathes very well but too many of the available spaces for pouches etc have the pouches sewn into place. I would prefer a similar item that is easier to customise. Still a great peice of kit for going hiking etc. I've also got a big 1990s era Australian Army pack. I use it when travelling instead of a suitcase. Very sturdy and spacious.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Maybe , in the end , you would only have your mags and maybe a few bits like pers med kit,bayonet etc . ( in a T2K scenario )

A vest with a gazillion pouches might not be needed anymore.

A simple belt with mag pouches on it and maybe a load carry poach would be all that would be needed.

?

Wow you just solve why the old kit would be broken out of what was left of storage that still had all of the ALICE equipment that would of been left over if the MOLLE had made it to the troops in t2k timeline...lol For I am sure it would take quite awhile to remove it from storage places in Europe and Korea... Along with other pre-position sites... Just some thoughts...

[HorseSoldier]

By '99 and later, I suspect you'd have local workshops turning out new production items made of canvas or leather. Some might be direct copies of pouches, some might be new designs, and some might be borrowed from other sources (like, say, an ALICE compatible version of the Soviet style quad magazine pouch, but resized for AR magazines).

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes I am sure by '99 either the local will start the trade themselves or local commanders at Regiment on up will start to encourage the trade.

[HorseSoldier]

One thing I'd guess you'd see with pretty much all armies in T2K is troops carrying more medical/first aid gear than their Cold War webbing set ups intended. (More in line with a modern blow out kit.) The field dressing in a compass pouch is good as far as it goes, but it was never really enough, and that's not going to be improved by year 2000 medevac capabilities. I can see tourniquets coming back in, like they have in real life, and even if quikclot and Israeli bandages and TCCC never make it into the equation at least more basic supplies.

[Abbott Shaull]

One thing is for certain in the t2k frame. One would probably see a large variety of Load Bearing kit when the troops in the field. You will see more and more troops having one kit they wear around the Garrison/Cantonment area and one they took out on patrols. Much like troops have been known to have one set for inspection purpose and one for field...