Ghillie suit

[kcdusk]

So, single player has decided to work their way through enemy lines to take a shot at a high ranking NPC.

Along the way i have 4 or 5 different "tasks" or "challenges" the player will need to over come to reach the point where a shot may be taken from.

The player has gained a Ghillie suit. He's only thinking of the advantages, i'm thinking its heavy and hot wearing it all the time.

What advantage would you give a player with a ghillie suit?

How would you ref any disadvantages?

[LT. Ox]

How much “other “gear do you think would be carried? The thing is it is not a long term outfit, by that I mean it is not for more than a few hours of wear at any one time. If you have a long way to travel for insertion then you will carry it all but the last portion.
You may have a need to stay in it for, say up to twenty four hours or so, at the shoot location, you may need to use it to get into the shoot position but only the very last part. Some water, a little food, com gear and your weapons, that is about it for equipment while in the suit.
After that it is up to you as gm how much the suit will protect him from observation. I have seen observant personnel walk, while actively searching, within two feet of a prone sniper. I have seen a troop spot another sniper in his suit at over a hundred yards; the trooper was taking a drink from his canteen at the time. So it depends, nothing is assured in this type of competition.
I am red-green color blind, I “see” camouflaged personnel better than those with normal color vision. The reason for that has been explained to me by my trainers, it is because I see shape and form over color and that movement is part of my survival instinct, be that as it may, I know that a ghillie suit helps “hide” a soldier and I know you can still be seen while wearing one.

[pmulcahy11b]

Also remember that "invisibility" is not just a matter of camouflage, it's a state of mind. Having a positive, realistic frame of mind when hiding, it is a world of difference in trying to hide and believing you will get caught.

I know it's hard to explain, but I'll bet a lot of you have experienced it.

[LT. Ox]

Much to be said in favor of that statement.

[swaghauler]

A Ghillie Suit is only an aid to stealth. I would give a bonus to your Stealth, Fieldcraft or whatever skill the version of Twilight your using has as a "sneak/hide" skill. I would grant a bonus of 1 to 4 to the player's Stealth skill, depending on how well it blends in with the player's surroundings.

for an "opposed test" like this; I subtract the difference between the number rolled and the player's stealth target number to get a "Margin of Success" like in TW2k13. I then subtract that "Margin of Success" from the bad guys' Observation scores before rolling for detection. A good Stealth roll can significantly reduce the enemy's chance of finding the player as a result.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Some other points to note:

Half suit or full suit?
By that I mean is the suit just covering the sniper's back (in my terminology, a half suit) and is effective only on the back and when prone. Or is it a full suit with the ghillie cam applied to front and back so that it's effective from any direction when standing, kneeling, prone etc. etc.?

The half suit doesn't weigh as much but is obviously limited in some aspects. The advantage is that it doesn't get in the way when reaching into front pockets or ammo pouches and so on.
With a full suit, you have to reach under the suit to get access to your pockets, pouches and the like.

Not all ghillie suits are heavy, some are made from lightweight materials but no matter what their weight is, they can still have a negative impact on movement because they can snag on twigs, bushes, wire etc. etc. or they might actually restrict movement of your limbs.
You tend to not move fast when wearing a ghillie suit for all these reasons.
It's another aspect of why, as LT Ox pointed out, the sniper will put the suit on only when actually needed and not wear it "all the time".

What season and terrain is the suit designed for?
For example, a generic suit for Europe will likely work well over most terrain types in Europe but a suit designed for arid regions with no greenery is going to have limited effectiveness in a temperate grassland area.
Same deal goes for a suit designed for European winter, it's not going to provide much help in a tropical forest or a mountain pasture at the height of the spring season.

Last of all, and this has been inferred or stated outright by everybody who posted before me, a ghillie suit is NOT a replacement for good fieldcraft and good personal camouflage. It's an aid to those skills but it can't make a clumsy, fast moving oaf into a ninja.

[Rockwolf66]

As Cynic stated it's an Aid not a magical invisibility cloak. They do help in letting you blend in but they can still be spotted if you know what to look for. On the other hand there are "Rumors" that one or more sniping instructors passed the infiltration course while wearing a full clown suit. I'm not so sure about that one but I have hidden from people while wearing a bright red windbreaker.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

On the other hand there are "Rumors" that one or more sniping instructors passed the infiltration course while wearing a full clown suit. I'm not so sure about that one but I have hidden from people while wearing a bright red windbreaker.

I would not be surprised if it were true in some way (perhaps not a full clown suit but not full camo either) - I recall an article I read many, many years ago in a military magazine about personal cam where the author said that if people are not actually paying attention, they're just as likely to not see you even if you're blatantly obvious.

To illustrate his point he stated that according to a friend who was an FBI instructor, there was another instructor who while training FBI recruits in fieldcraft, used to stand on a tree stump wearing brown trousers but with a blue or red shirt while holding a pistol with a nickel (or silver) finish.
It was claimed that it was common for FBI trainees who were actively searching for said instructor to completely miss him. The reason? They were expecting him to be at ground level (either standing, kneeling or prone) and apparently they sort of "shut out" any image that didn't conform to that notion.

So the moral of the story? Exactly what Rockwolf stated, if you know what to look for you still have a chance to spot them but also, if you focus too much on one aspect, you might actually lose sight of what's quite obvious and miss the threat that's standing there out in the open.
And a further snippet of information to go along with that - as illustrated by the above anecdotes, adults often ignore things they see that don't meet their expected notions, but children on the other hand...
Children are much more curious and will notice things that adults have unconsciously ignored. Something that was taught to us in E&E training, children are dangerous to the soldier trying to stay unobtrusive, they're like dogs that have found something interesting - they will not leave it alone. They'll drawn attention to you when all the adults seem blissfully unaware of your existence and then, the best ghillie suit and personal cam in the world will not save you from discovery.

[Sanjuro]

For a great example of missing the obvious, try watching this video and counting how many times the ball is passed back and forth.
http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/videos.html

[LT. Ox]

did you see the knife?

[Bullet Magnet]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

On the other hand there are "Rumors" that one or more sniping instructors passed the infiltration course while wearing a full clown suit.

Like that ep of Family Guy, Peter having a flashback scene of being in the Army:
Soldiers emerging from behind the trees, Peter comes out dressed as a clown. "You guys are all stupid! they're gonna be looking for army guys."

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Also remember that "invisibility" is not just a matter of camouflage, it's a state of mind. Having a positive, realistic frame of mind when hiding, it is a world of difference in trying to hide and believing you will get caught.

I know it's hard to explain, but I'll bet a lot of you have experienced it.

The rangers on Guam rocked with the foliage when the wind blew. Our guy freaked when he used the NVG's and two men were a handful of meters away!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

For a great example of missing the obvious, try watching this video and counting how many times the ball is passed back and forth.
http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/videos.html

How many times have you put something down and a minute later, can't find it?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

The rangers on Guam rocked with the foliage when the wind blew. Our guy freaked when he used the NVG's and two men were a handful of meters away!

In Korea, one of my friends caught a slickey-boy because he was wearing NODs (the officers finally listened to us). He just started yelling MP! MP! and charged the slickey-boy. He got a minor razor cut on his hand, but he did a number on the slickey-boy using just his fists and feet.

[.45cultist]

I was surprised a couple were issued to us, I think they came with the frequency hopping PRC's courtesy of Guam's NG.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

In Korea, one of my friends caught a slickey-boy because he was wearing NODs (the officers finally listened to us). He just started yelling MP! MP! and charged the slickey-boy. He got a minor razor cut on his hand, but he did a number on the slickey-boy using just his fists and feet.

I presume you mean he used that force which was necessary to restrain said indignant person from leaving the area of a possible infraction of military regulations.

[.45cultist]

Most T2K snipers will need a couple of duffles of netting and various colors of burlap for the changes in terrain.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

I presume you mean he used that force which was necessary to restrain said indignant person from leaving the area of a possible infraction of military regulations.

We had MILES gear and "shot" the @!#$%^ out of them. (they were outside the hazardous range).

[LT. Ox]

I was not the Officer of the Day and had to write the damn after action report for that one.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

So the moral of the story? Exactly what Rockwolf stated, if you know what to look for you still have a chance to spot them but also, if you focus too much on one aspect, you might actually lose sight of what's quite obvious and miss the threat that's standing there out in the open.

Situational awareness is sadly lacking in large parts of the adult population. I ride a motorcycle every day, so my situational awareness remains pretty good and it translates to other parts of my life too. I never get in anyone's way while moving on foot through crowded shopping malls for instance. The number of times every week that some idiot car driver nearly wipes me out proves that most adults are hopelessly unaware of their surroundings.