Cavalry in T2K

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So one of the big drawbacks to horse cavalry is the innate lack of heavy weapons...or the inability to utilize them while on horseback right?

What if you had saddles with like "arms" to sit a SAW on as you rode, helping stabilize the barrel?

Or maybe a mk19?

I also dabble in D&D and saw a painting of a saddle that had a brace for a heavy lance off to the side.

I could maybe see the SAW, but the MK19 is way to heavy and has way to much recoil I would think. But my understaning is the same as most of the others that modern cavalry was more like dragoons.

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Regarding the 10th man,my squads will need to be pretty independent.

I was thinking of a farrier type person and 2-3 "hands" to support 20-25 horses or something.

Ok so for the most part heavy weapons are out...what about 2-3 people and a farrier to watch 20-25 horses of the rest of the squad?

These squads will be long range patrols through particular counties in Texas.

[mikeo80]

What I have read about Civil War and the Indian Wars of the 1870's - 1880's,
seem to indicate that most of the time, cavalry was used for reconnaissance. J.E.B. Stuart was one of the primary officers fir this kind of work. It can be argued that the Battle of Gettysburg was a mistake because JEB went off on a Recon Raid, but did not keep General Lee informed of where he was and what he saw.

During the Civil War and beyond the cavalry would ride up, dismount, and engage the enemy. I have read that as many as 1 in 4 men were used as horse holders. The recovered evidence at Little Big Horn seems to bear this out. Custer and his men formed a long skirmish line. While the attacking Indians were at a distance, this was fine, the Springfield trap rifle had the ability to keep opponents at long range. Once the Indian fighters got closer, using terrain, the fire power of their repeating Winchesters and Henrys overwhelmed the 7th Cav. Of course being outnumbered about 9 -1 did not help.

My $0.02

Mike

[Gelrir]

For horse-holders who can lead the horses around, from the saddle, 1-in-4 or even 1-in-3 seems typical.

Managing a bunch of horses that never move might be possible for a 1-in-10 horseholder, I dunno.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rmg...ers%22&f=false

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=253373

I seem to recall that the late 19th century Imperial Russian cavalry used 1-in-3; that is, one mounted guy, with an un-manned horse on each side of him. I think the Osprey book on the Russo-Turkish War mentions this.

As for mounted used of weapons: certainly pistol and sabre were the weapons of the U.S. Cavalry when mounted, in the early 20th Century. That's why each cavalryman was issued a pistol. I'm not sure if mounted rifle marksmanship was ever even discussed. The 1944 manual seems to presume that rifle usage will only happen dismounted, but I haven't read every page.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/...PDFs/FM2-5.PDF

It's for an eight-man squad. Ah ha, a command on page 38: "To leave horses immobile": "All horses of one squad may be linked in a circle and left to the care of one horseholder". Of course, if you had 10-man squads, I imagine one guy could probably handle 10 horses.

--
Michael B.

[mpipes]

Your best bet is to read up on the German and Soviet cavalry on the Eastern Front in WWII. I do recall machineguns being part of their standard equipment, but I have no idea if they fired them from horseback. Carbines and SMG, yes. Those were fired from horseback. I know Soviet mounted cavalry overran German or their allied units on occasions. SS cavalry patrolled against partisans.

[Tegyrius]

I'll throw another vote for dragoons versus fighting from the saddle. One reason I haven't seen mentioned here: a horse is a bigger target than a man, and far harder to replace in most T2k theatres. Why expose your vulnerable mobility assets to direct fire?

- C.

[dragoon500ly]

Speaking only for US Cavalry tactics, one out of every four men remained with the horses to control them.

Pistols and sabers were the perferred mounted weapons, as at least one hand would be necessary to control the reins, this was also one of the reasons that cavalry men had that thick leather strap around their shoulder that was attached to the carbine, you could fire one round and then drop the carbine (leaving it dangling) and draw pistol or saber as necessary.

In modern cavalry, the troopers would ride into the area, dismount, have the horseholders lead the mounts back out of the line of fire, the dismounts would deploy as skirmishers and start fighting. If the enemy started to withdraw, the horses were brought forward, and then used to bound forwards to the next position.

With the limitations on weight that a horse can carry, support weapons would either be carried on pack horses or in wagons. Your T2000 cavalryman would have a pistol and either a SMG or an assault rifle with maybe a M203 as the largest weapon carried.

[Targan]

We've had threads before with really detailed info on horses in T2K and dragoon forces.

[Raellus]

Merged. There's some good stuff here.

I see horse cavalry as being an increasingly important arm as the Twilight War winds down to a lower intensity. Cross-country scouting would be horse cav's primary role. I agree that troopers would almost always dismount before going into combat. That said, there might be room for an occasional charge- pistols or SMGs would be the weapon of choice for this rare occurrence.

Carbines would be the standard primary arm of the trooper. They would almost always be used dismounted, but they'd be light and handy enough to maneuver and/or deploy while on horseback. Heavy weapons most often would be GLs and SAW/LSWs. Mounts, however, would need to be trained not to panic while their riders are firing while mounted or in close proximity. I think that people tend to take for granted that horses can handle that sort of noise, but the truth is that they need to be conditioned to do so.

[Raellus]

[Sith]

You may or may not have seen this, but here is the last (at least I believe so) horse cavalry field manual put out by the US Army in 1941. There is some goodness in here as it reflects some thinking in how horses would be employed on the same battlefield as armor. Keep in mind though that its authors were also seeking to justify the continued use of horsed cavalry.

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/docrepository/FM2_15.pdf

[Raellus]

I don't know much about the Grey's Scouts, but they apparently operated extensively on horseback.



I can't imagine that the accuracy would be any good- he'd likely be hard pressed to hit a barn door at anything over 50m, but I do think the ol' fashioned cavalry charge could still work under certain rare circumstances- like against a small irregular party caught out in the open.

[Raellus]

Interesting tactic requiring a very obedient and well trained horse. Or dead one.

[stormlion1]

Use of Horses is a good idea as long as feed and supply chain is reasonably intact, even a lot of there care and feeding is easily doable in the field like feeding them and changing there shoes. As for the carrying of heavy equipment even that is doable if its broken down and carried by more than one horse. A Saw could be carried by a pack horse and its ammunition by two others easily enough. Not all gear was carried by individual horses after all. They had a supply train. Not sure of the numbers but I THINK I remember the 7th Calvary when they went off to Little Big Horn were supposed to have had at least a several supply carrying horses. Not that they went with Custer, I think he left them behind or they were with Benteen. He had the packs after all with the additional ammunition supply.
The big problem will be horse supply, quite a few will not survive the events that plague the world with refugees eating them, being worked to death, and general disease's and other factors like people hoarding there's to do things like travel and plowing fields. Even a Race Horse can plow a field if that's all that's available to a farmer and he will hide that horse when troops show up looking for a ride to draft.
Wish I still had that book on the 7th Calvary, it had a lot of details on the Calvary that operated during the Civil War and the Indian Wars.

[mikeo80]

Storm Lion, you are exactly correct as far as 7th Cav is concerned. Custer DID have a supply train. Relatively small, but as you said, extra ammo. In fact, the last contact from Custer was a note he sent. To quote from the note,

Benteen

Come on. Big Village.

Be quick. Bring packs.

W. W. Cooke

P.S. Bring Packs.

Custer also did away with his heavy weapons. He refused a battery of 2 - 3 Gatling guns. (there are records of both numbers, so hard to tell.)

All the weapons of the 7th Cav consisted of the Springfield Trapdoor Rifles and Colt revolvers. Custer even ordered the troops to NOT bring their sabers.

My $0.02

Mike

[Apache6]

"Calvary units" are sexy, especially the all female 2d Tennessee Cavalry Regiment formed out of dedicated horsewomen from Shelbyville Tn, the home of the Walking Horses. (They were never very successful in combat roles, they were noted as being exceptionally competent in policing and as great ambassadors, and were able to "talk down situations, where traditional units would have 'gone kinetic.' Formed in summer of 2001, the regiment had 10 squadrons, 3 in each of 3 Battalions, plus one retained as the Regimental Cmdrs direct asset. Each Squadron had 4 Calvary troops, each consisting of a Cmdr, XO and 4 10 woman squads, and small HQ, including a supply/blacksmiths wagon. At first they were armed with a wide range of civilan arms (shotguns, lever actions and bolt actions) over the winter of 2001, they were rearmed primarily with "9mm sten type SMGs, manufactured in the Middle Tennessed State University factory in Murfreesboro. At the same time a 14 woman, 60mm Mortar squad was added to each Squadron.

Despite being sexy, they are not going to have much combat power, and their value will be in reconnaissance and screening, cavalry roles, they may have to fight, but they are not going to be able to defeat equivalent units. This has been true all the way back to at least the Civil war.

- In the US in the 90s you are going to work very hard to gather together enough men who are really familiar with horses, I think that their are more females who really like horses then men (thus the 2d TN Cav above).

- Most people today, even if they own horses, don't realize how much work it takes to keep a horse functioning as a mount or a work animal. Most Americans, and I expect Western Europeans, of the 90s would be ill qualified to maintain horses, and this would result in EXTREMELY high loses of horses. This would be made worse by the fact that the horses of the period would have 'grown up' as pets, not work animals. I remember reading something about pampered horses that had worked in a brewery in Germany who were drafted as artillery animals during WWII, none of them survived the first winter in Russian.

- I had a friend who was big into both Civil War reenactment and "cowboy action shooting." He had two horses who were 'gun trained," I know Police Horses are as well, but most horses are going to spook at gunfire, and some horses cannot be 'gun trained.'

- Having listed why horses are not ideal for combat, I will add that they are going to be invaluable for courier duties, and for pulling loads. I have a horse, in the combat train, of my Marine "Company" I posted here earlier, but it mostly hauls a wagon and is sometimes used to carry messages.

- I think there would be lots of reinventing the wheel, or actually of reinventing the horse pulled plow and horse harnesses. Making these are not completely lost skills, but they are not widespread either.

- As some has said before, a lot of horses (and dogs, cats...) are going to get eaten the first winter after TDM. That will make the survivors more valuable. The question is are surviving horses used to bred more and trained for pulling plows, or organized into offensive units. I think that their will be examples of both. Farmers will vote for the first plan, military for the second.

- OK, now I've got a new adventure idea. A 'just returned from Europe unit,' infiltrating on foot to 'recover' (rustle) horses and cattle from a New America controlled county in order to bring them back to Smithville in time for the spring planting. 2 of the adventurers are experienced horseman, the rest not so much. Could be fun role playing. I can see a stuborn but brave stud horse becoming an invaluable NPC. Herding dogs would also be useful.

- Oxen, will become much more important as work animals. Your artillery pieces are as likely to be pulled by oxen as horses. That is a skill that I think is likely very close to being totally lost in U.S., though I know of one group of Oxen that are plow trained at Historic Williamsburg near Norfolk VA

- No I don't have ADHD; why do you ask?

[stormlion1]

Troops shooting from the back of horses are not going to be very accurate no matter what the old westerns show. Just wait a lot of ammunition really so the best use of Horse Calvary is to ride them to the destination, dismount and leave one man holding the reigns of four of five horses and send the rest forward in a line. That way the horses don't get spooked by gunfire, the horses are both protected and available, and any pack horses will be nearby carrying additional ammunition. The interesting thing will be the entire process being reinvented by survivors and people with little real knowledge of horses and horse warfare.
Making a wagon for supply's is easy to say, but actually making one will be much harder and the option of cheating by using a cut down truckbed or some such will be a option. But that's all heavy metal there and horses will quickly tire out requiring longer breaks than normal. Building a wooden wagon is an option, if one has blueprints or better yet an example to copy but unless you have power tools that's a long drawn out process. Just curing the lumber will take time!

[Raellus]

Apache6, I really like your all female 2nd Tennessee Cavalry Regiment idea.

I also like your adventure idea- good ol' fashioned horse rustlin' = good times.

As for wagon design, wood is lighter, but the value of wood as a construction material and fuel source would increase after the TDM. A cut-down truck bed would work almost just as well. Depending on the truck, it wouldn't really be that much heavier than sturdy wood construction, once all the unnecessary bits and pieces were removed. More likely would be a hybrid wagon using a cut-down truck chassis with a wooden frame. When I lived in Uruguay back in the early '90s, there were lots of these ad hoc horse or mule-drawn wagons- the drivers would do freelance garbage collection.



On my bike ride today, I passed a father and daughter on horseback. In some parts of the U.S., horse ownership is pretty common. My town of Marana (basically a large, unincorporated suburb of Tucson) just announced the construction of a $13,000,000 rodeo grounds. In my old, more rural neighborhood, half the people on my block owned at least one horse.

-

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Apache6, I really like your all female 2nd Tennessee Cavalry Regiment idea.

I also like your adventure idea- good ol' fashioned horse rustlin' = good times.

As for wagon design, wood is lighter, but the value of wood as a construction material and fuel source would increase after the TDM. A cut-down truck bed would work almost just as well. Depending on the truck, it wouldn't really be that much heavier than sturdy wood construction, once all the unnecessary bits and pieces were removed. More likely would be a hybrid wagon using a cut-down truck chassis with a wooden frame. When I lived in Uruguay back in the early '90s, there were lots of these ad hoc horse or mule-drawn wagons- the drivers would do freelance garbage collection.



On my bike ride today, I passed a father and daughter on horseback. In some parts of the U.S., horse ownership is pretty common. My town of Marana (basically a large, unincorporated suburb of Tucson) just announced the construction of a $13,000,000 rodeo grounds. In my old, more rural neighborhood, half the people on my block owned at least one horse.

-

I wish I had a photo of it, but I saw a bunch of vans that had there front window knocked out and were made in to horse (donkey) carts in Iraq.

[Canadian Army]

How about this for heavy weapons support:


A corporal aims a Colt M1895 atop a Sri Lankan Elephant.

[mikeo80]

OMG.....Canadian Army, that is just too freaking funny....

You DID forget a spew warning....

My $0.02

Mike

[stormlion1]

Hit a few Circus's and Zoo's up. Add a little Kevlar in vital spots and maybe even some real armor in others and, yep you a have a Armored Elephant to scare the masses with. That is until you pull the trigger and find yourself just trying to stay on!

[Gelrir]

From FM 2-5, dated 1944:

The LMG squad is 8 men, with two gun crews. Each crew has three men, with four horses: three ridden, and one pack horse with gun, tripod, and ammo. Outside of the two crews are the squad leader and another pack horse driver, leading a pack horse with more ammunition. Thus: 8 men, 11 horses.

The .50 cal MG squad has 8 men, 8 riding horses, 3 pack horses, but only one gun and ammo. The #1 horse carries the gun, tripod, and 40 rounds of ammo; the #2 and #3 horses carry the rest of the ammo.

The 81mm mortar squad has 8 men, 8 riding horses, 3 pack horses. The #1 pack horse carries the mortar; #2 and #3 pack horse each have 12 mortar shells (18 shells each for short, slow moves).

A machine-gun platoon was an HQ (8 men), two LMG sections (two squads and a sergeant), a .50 cal MG section (two squads and a sergeant). 54 horses total.

An 81mm mortar platoon ws an HQ (9 men), and two mortar sections (each is two squads and a sergeant).

--
Michael b.

[dragoon500ly]

Weight of Horse Equipments and Cavalry Accouterments 1878

Bit dated J, but useful for giving an idea of just how much weight a cavalry horse could carry…

Halter: 2lbs 1oz
Watering bridle: 1lb 1.5oz
Bridle: 2lbs 13oz
Saddle: 14lbs 13.5oz
Saddle-bags: 2lbs 2oz
Filling of near-side pouch with 5 days rations: 10lbs
Filling of off-side pouch with 1pr socks, 1 pr drawers, 2 shirts, 40rds carbine ammo, toilet articles: 7lbs
8oz
Forage sack: 6oz
5 days oats for horse, carried in forage sack: 15lbs
Lariat and picket pin: 3lbs 1.5oz
Overcoat: 4lbs 6.5oz
Brush and shoe pouch: 1lb
Curry-comb and brush in near-side pocket: 1lb 8oz
2 horse shoes and 15 shoe nails in off-side pouch: 2lbs
2 Blankets (one horse and one trooper); 6lbs 14oz
Saddle cover: 1lb
Surcingle: 11.5oz
Saber and slings: 4lbs 12oz
Waist-belt and plate: 1lb
Pistol and holster: 3lbs 2oz
Carbine sling and swivel: 10lbs 4oz
Carbine cartridge box: 1lb
24 rounds of carbine ammunition: 2lbs
Pistol cartridge box: 4oz
12 rounds of pistol ammunition: 14oz
Man: 140lbs
Total weight: 240lbs 12.5oz

As you can see, things can get a bit “tight”, even replacing with modern equipment, just doesn’t leave that much room for extras. As a general rule of thumb, the US Cavalry provided a pack horse (mule) for every 8 men to carry extra rations and ammunition.

[Adm.Lee]

Regarding pet horses and the 2nd Tennessee, above: I live in a mid-sized city, and both my wife (fiancee at the time) and one of my brothers worked at horse farms outside of the city as college jobs. They worked for at least one person or family who owned the barn and riding grounds, which was staffed usually by high school and college kids. The horses would be owned by rich families-- doctors, lawyers, etc. Alternately, the grounds of a hunt club/country club would have lots of woods for riding in, as well as barns, horses, and trainers. If there are any pockets of horse ownership and horse-training expertise, places like those, on the edge of cities and their wealthier suburbs are the place to find them.

[Cdnwolf]

So in the end .... did anyone come up with combat rules involving the use of calvary.

I have a a Polish Border Guard unit mounted on horses beating the bushes looking for any survivors from the 256'th Brigade south of Lask and the characters will definately run into them sometime.

[Raellus]

Rise, dead thread! Rise!

I ran across this article on a cool website called The War Zone. The concept of horse cavalry/dragoons/mule-mobile infantry is alive and well in the year 2017.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...orseback-again

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Interesting tactic requiring a very obedient and well trained horse. Or dead one.

US Cavalry in the West used this tactic, and yes, it did required a lot of training to get the horse to comply. A lot of cavalry horse training since the 18th Century involved getting a horse to not run off in the other direction when loud noises (like gun fire and explosions) occurred.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

the East Africa Sourcebook (maybe we start using EAS for short) has a Kenyan cavalry unit FYI

The regiment consists of a headquarters squadron, three cavalry squadrons, and a horse drawn heavy weapons squadron. It is modeled on the British Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, with each cavalry squadron, at full strength, consisting of two divisions, each of one officer and twenty four enlisted personnel, while the headquarters squadron consists of only one division. In addition, it is supported by a training squadron of one officer and thirty six enlisted men.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

So in the end .... did anyone come up with combat rules involving the use of calvary.

I have a a Polish Border Guard unit mounted on horses beating the bushes looking for any survivors from the 256'th Brigade south of Lask and the characters will definately run into them sometime.

I'll bite...

What kind of rules are you looking for?

• Movement of individual is in the movement rules.
• Cavalry trained horses won't shy from gunfire; untrained horses will.
• There is a quadruped hit location chart.
• Man on a horse is a slightly larger target to spot than a man on foot; he can also see slightly further.
• I would make anyone being charged at less than 30 m range make a CUF/initiative roll vs this large beast coming at you (mods for cover, perhaps), or break and run.

The BGB would probably have squads pushing along a front on search, with a larger troop ready to reinforce on contact. And their tactic would be to move to a short distance away, dismount, and proceed on foot into combat.

Uncle Ted