Manchuria, China, and the Far Eastern Front

[kota1342000]

Thank you Six, going into the second draft.
I agree about Hong Kong too, I'm wondering if i should separate the list into several strike waves.
Other additional targets Im going to add include HQ locations for ground forces, PLAAF airfields, and refinery locations. Its looking like the refinery list is going to be short though.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kota1342000

Thank you Six, going into the second draft.
I agree about Hong Kong too, I'm wondering if i should separate the list into several strike waves.
Other additional targets Im going to add include HQ locations for ground forces, PLAAF airfields, and refinery locations. Its looking like the refinery list is going to be short though.

I'm not sure about the refineries - wikipedia only seems to list one (Fushun) but a quick look around the web suggests there may be quite a few more - for example this article from 2002 refers to there being nearly 130, with a further 110 having been closed since 1998.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Mar/28254.htm

[kota1342000]

Yes, Fushun was the only refinery I had found as well. But working from the link you gave, I found this list from a new report;

Plant 2007 Runs 2006 Runs Refining
Capacity
=================================================
Zhenhai 18.5 17.5 22.0
Maoming 13.0 14.0 13.5
Qilu 10.3 10.4 10.0
Jinling 11.5 10.6 13.5
Gaoqiao 8.0 9.5 11.3
Guangzhou 10.0 7.5 13.5
Fujian 4.0 4.0 4.0
Yangzi 8.0 8.0 8.0
Yanshan 9.0 8.0 16.0
Lanzhou 10.0 9.5 10.0
Dalian 12.0 12.0 20.0
WEPEC 7.7 8.5 10.0
Jinzhou 6.1 6.1 6.3
Jinxi 6.5 6.5 6.5
Dongxing 3.6 3.6 5.0
Hainan 7.8 2.2 8.0
=================================================
TOTAL 146.0 137.9 177.6
in mln bpd 2.92 2.76 3.55
(tonne= 7.3 barrels)


Anyway, better than nothing LOL

[dragoon500ly]

Went digging through some back issues of Military Balance and here is what Mongolia brought to the table in 1985.

Population: 1,750,000
Army: 25,000
2 Infantry Divisions (these are formed along Soviet Motor Rifle lines, but have one battalion per regiment "mothballed")
1 Infantry Brigade (in process of expanding to division)
140 MBT (mix of T-34/85, T-54, T-55)
20 BMP-1
10 SU-100 assault guns
70 BTR-60
40 BTR-152
60 Snapper/Sagger ATGM
mix of 76mm, 100mm, 122mm, 130mm and 152mm artillery pieces (park is est at about 180)
12 SA-2 SAM
40 37mm AA guns
30 57mm AA guns

Reserves: 40,000, will form one infantry division equipped with older weapons and bring active divisions up to full strength.

Air Force: 100 pilots; Soviet technicians form ground crews and support staff, est at 2,100.
1 Fighter Squadron with 12 MiG-21
2 Transport Squadrons with 20 An-2; 19 An-24; 1 An-26
1 Helicopter Squadron with 10 Mi-4

Para-Military Forces:
4 battalions of security police and 2-5 battalions of frontier guards: 18,000
Mongolian Society for the Promotion of the Army: 100,000, this is a pre-military training organization similar to the Soviet Union's DOSAAF.

Mongolia has a unique strategic situation in that it gives defensive depth to the Soviet Union's central Siberia against China. China still claims suzerainty over Mongolia (dating back to the Manchu Dynasty), this claim is rejected by Mongolia. Should China expand into Mongolia, the Soviets would find their major communications link (the Trans-Siberian Railway) within 100 miles of a very unfriendly frontier.

Mongolia guards a bit over 2,500 miles of border with China as well as provides forces to ensure the internal control and security of a large area with the lowest population density in the world. These tasks can only be conducted with massive Soviet support. Soviet Air Defense troops guard the key communications hub of Choibalsan in eastern Mongolia and Soviet MRBM units are based further east, near the Chinese border where they can cover large ares of China as well as US bases in South Korea and Okinawa. Soviet Forces, Mongolia consists of one combined arms army with three motor rifle and one tank division as well as extensive engineer support (10,000 engineers alone).

Mongolia has an alliance of friendship and mutual defense with the Soviet Union (dating back to 1936). This treaty provides for assistance in the event of an attack by a third party. Under its provisions, Mongolia military personnel served in North Korean during the Korean War and provided advisers to North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Mongolia provided horses, food and winter clothing to the Soviet Union during World War II. Mongolia also has mutual defense treaties with other Communist countries in the Soviet orbit. While Mongolia is not a member of the Warsaw Pact, it is a member of COMECON (Council for Mutual Economic Assistance, this consists of the members of the Warsaw Pact, Mongolia and Cuba).

[pmulcahy11b]

As far as airfields are concerned, Google Maps' satellite view can yield some interesting results. I tried that once on North Korea and was able to pick out lots of big and small airfields, including aircraft type in many cases.

[pmulcahy11b]

Just to give you something while you wait for me to pick apart that book, here's a partial list of PLAAF inventory going back to 1985 and projected to 2025:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...laaf-equip.htm

And here's an OOB on this page. It's current-day, but might give you something to extrapolate from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%...Army_Air_Force

[dragoon500ly]

Here is what North Korea (The Democractic People's Republic of Korea) brought into the Twilight War...source is the Military Balance series...

Population: 18,800,000
Army: 700,000
2 armored divisions
3 motor infantry divisions
35 infantry divisions
5 armored brigades
4 infantry brigades
Special Forces (100,000) consisting of:
23 ground, 3 amphibious and 1 airborne bdes
2 independent tank regiments
5 independent infantry regiments
250 artillery battalions
82 MRL battalions
5 SSM battalions
5 river crossing regiments (13 bns)

300 T-34
2,200 T-54/T-55/T-62
179 Type 59 MBT
100 PT-76
50 Type 62 lt tanks
140 BA-64 armored cars
200 BMP-1
1,000 BTR-40/-50/-60/-152 and Type 531 APCs
3,300 76mm/85mm/100mm/122mm/130mm/152mm towed artillery pieces
800 SU-76/SU-100 SP guns
11,000 82mm/120mm/160mm/240mm mortars
2,000 107mm/122mm/140mm/200mm/240mm MRLs
54 FROG-5/-7 SSMs
1,500 82mm/107mm RCLs and towed 45mm/57mm and 75mm antitank guns
8,000 23mm/37mm/57mm/85mm/100mm towed AA guns
1,000 ZSU-23-4 and ZSU-57-2 SP AA guns

Reserves: 230,000 forming 23 infantry divisions (maintained at cadre str)
another 1,000,000 trained reservists

Navy: 33,500
21 d-e submarines: 4 Sov-W, 4 Ch R-classes, 13 local construction
4 frigates (2 in reserve)
18 FAC(M) Soviet
151 FAC(G) mix of Soviet, Chinese and local
182 FAC(T) mix of Soviet, Chinese and local
32 large patrol craft: max of Soviet, Chinese and local
30 coastal patrol craft; mix of Soviet and local
9 LCU, 15 LCM, 75 LCVP
2 coastal defense artillery regiments with SM-4-1 SSMs and 130mm guns

Reserves: 40,000

Air Force: 51,000
3 light bomber squadrons with 70 Il-28
1 FGA sqn with 20 Su-7
9 FGA sqns with 290 MiG-15/-17
3 FGA sqns with 100 MiG-19/Chinese Q-5
12 interceptor sqns with 100 MiG-19 and 160 MiG-21
Transports include 250 An-2; 10 An-24; 5 Il-14; 4 Il-8; 1 Tu-154
Helicopters include 40 Mi-4, 20 Mi-8
Trainers include 20 YaK-11; 70 Yak-18; 100 MiG-15/-19/-21; 30 J-6
4 SAM Brigades (12 bns) with 250 SA-2 and 40 SA-3

Forces Abroad: Iran 300; Zimbabwe 130; Madagascar 100; Uganda 40

Paramilitary Forces: Security Forces and border guards: 38,000; Workers-Farmers Youth Red Guard: 1,760,000

North Korea's aims have remained unchanged since the 1953 armistice, the overthrow of the government of South Korea and the establish of a Communist government over the entire peninsula. Since 1953 there has been over 2,000 incidents, most of them in or near the DMZ and aimed at discouraging the US presence in Korea. The most serious of these incidents was the attempted assassination of the South Korea President by NK Commandos in January,1968, the seizure of the USS Pueblo that same month, the shooting down of a USAF EC-121 on April 15, 1969 and the murder of two unarmed US Army officers who were trimming trees in the DMZ in August 1976.

While North Korea has maintained its own policies since 1956 (independent of Soviet or Red Chinese influence) and has achieved a measure of economic independence, the DPRK is still dependent on both of its allies for military support. The DPRK is maintaining a cautious, friendly nonalignment with both Communist giants.

The DPRK's basic strategic problem is its proximity to a heavily armed and hostile non-Communist nation (South Korea, the Republic of Korea). The DPRK is within easy striking range of US bases in Japan and Okinawa. Its factories, hydroelectric plants and population centers are highly concentrated and its railroad and highway network is highly vulnerable to attack. Its long east and west coasts are vulnerable to amphibious attack and require a large and active patrol force.

The DPRK faces a continuing strategic and military problem in that it is walking a diplomatic tightrope between the worsening situation between China and the Soviets. The DPRK needs Russian backing to discourage incursions from China as well as providing military and economic support. The DPRK must also maintain friendly relations with China (who also has the longest border) as the DPRK still depends on military support from China in case of a renewed war with South Korea.

The principal supporter of the DPRK's military and its growing economy has been the Soviet Union. Due to this aid, the DPRK was able to mount its nearly successful attack on the ROK in June 1950. The Soviet Union also rebuilt the DPRK's shattered military and economy following the 1953 armistice. Since then, China has also contributed to the DPRKs military, although being incapable of providing the heavy support that the USSR provides.

When the DPRK began openly supporting Chinese policy in 1963, the Soviets cut off all military and economic aid, which include fuel and parts for the largely Soviet supplied air force. But in 1965, when the DPRK changed its pro-Peking position and drew closer again to the USSR, military and economic aid was resumed and even increased.

The DPRK has military aid treaties with both the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China.

[dragoon500ly]

Of course, no discussion of the Far East can leave out the Republic of Korea (South Korea)...source is the Military Balance series.

Population: 39,400,000
Army: 540,000
2 mechanized infantry divisions (each of 3 bdes with a total of 3 mech, 3 mot inf
and 3 tank bns; a recon bn and a arty bde of three bns)
20 infantry divisions (each of three infantry regiments; 1 recon, 1 tank, and 1
engr bn and a arty group of 4 bns)
11 independent brigades: 3 airborne, 2 Special Forces, 1 Commando, 5 infantry
2 AA Arty bdes
2 SSM bns
2 SAM bdes
1 army aviation bde

1,200 M-47/M-48 MBTs
500 M-113 APCs
350 Fiat 6614 APCs
2,500 155mm SP, 175mm SP, 203mm SP, 105mm towed, 155mm towed,
203mm towed and 130mm MRLs
5,300 81mm and 107mm mortars
12 Honest John SSMs
255 76mm and 90mm towed antitank guns
3,200 57mm/75mm/90mm/106mm RCLs
66 Vulcan; 240 20mm and 40 40mm towed AA guns
110 HAWK SAMs
100 Nike Hercules SAMs
14 O-2A aircraft
100 UH-1B, 100 OH-6A, 25 Hughes 500MD, and 90 Scout helicopters
(on order are 38 M-109A2 SP 155mm; 500 TOW ATGM, 300 Stinger SAMs, 56 OH-6A and 25 Hughes 500MD)

Reserves:
Regular Army Reserves: 1,400,000 forming 23 infantry divisions and reinforcing active units.
Homeland Reserve Defense Force: 3,300,000

Navy: 29,000
11 destroyers (7 Gearing, 2 Sumner, 2 Fletcher)
8 frigates (1 Ulsan, 1 Rudderow, 6 Lawrence/Crosley)
3 Auk corvettes
11 FAC(M) (5 PSMM Mk5; 1 Asheville; 2 Kist)
8 large patrol craft
28 coastal patrol craft
8 coastal minesweepers
8 LST, 10 LSM, 6 LSU
(on order 1 d-e sub, 7 corvettes, 20 FAC(M))
Reserves: 25,000

Marines: 20,000
2 divisions
1 independent brigade
60 M-47, 80 LVTP-7
(on order 40 LVTP-7)
Reserves: 60,000

Air Force: 33,000
14 FGA sqns with 250 F-5A/B/E/F
4 FGA sqns with 70 F-86F and 6 A-10A
4 AD sqns with 70 F-4D/E
1 COIN sqn with 24 OV-10G, 8 A-37A
1 Recon sqn with 10 RF-5A
1 ASW sqn with 20 S-2A/F
1 ASW sqn with 10 Hughes 500MD helos
1 SAR sqn with 6 UH-1H, 20 UH-1B
5 tpt sqns with 10 C-54; 16 C-123J/K; 2 HS-748; 6 C-130H
Trainers include 20 T-28D, 40 T-33A, 14 T-37C, 20 T-41D, 35 F-5B, 64 F-5F
(on order 30 F-16A, 6 F-16B, 36 F-5E, 30 F-5F, 6 F-4D, 12 A-10A)
Reserves: 55,000

Paramilitary forces:
Civilian Defense Corps: 4,400,000
Student Homeland Defense Corps: 1,820,000

The current goal of the ROK is to maintain its independence in the face of the ever-present invasion threat from the DPRK (North Korea). Its secondary goal is to overthrow the DPRK regime and reunite the Korean peninsula under one government.

With the current support of the DPRK by Red China and the Soviet Union, and the ROK support from the United States has left the two Koreas in an uneasy deadlock which neither side dares to break.

The ROK's chief strategic vulnerability is the proximity of all ROK targets, including most of its heavy industry and population centers to air attacks from the DPRK, Red China and the Soviet Union. Second is the vulnerability of the ROK to ground infiltration or attack from the north. The ROK maintains a high level of security against the DPRK's infiltration and sabotage. In view of the strong anticommunism of the majority of South Koreans and their general support for the ROK government, there is no likelihood of indigenous guerrilla warfare. With continued US military commitment and the maintenance of a strong ROK defense structure, the chances of an all-out attack from the DPRK are slight. Should the Korean War be renewed, there is little possibility of either side mounting a quick knockout blow.

The United States maintains military advisory groups in Korea which equip and train all four ROK services. Most ROK units are under the operational control of the United Nations Command, which is Korea's senior military headquarters. The UN Commander is also the commander of the US Eighth Army. The US maintains an infantry division, an artillery brigade and various support units as well as an air wing stationed in Korea and another stationed in Okinawa. The US Seventh Fleet also maintains a carrier task force in the area.

The US and the ROK have a Mutual Defense Treaty.

[Targan]

Wow, per capita of population the ROK has an amazing amount of military manpower. I suppose if Kim Jong-Il was my neighbor I'd be hell bent on maintaining my military muscle too.

[dragoon500ly]

Here is another on the Far East....Japan....the source is the Military Balance series

Population: 119,400,000
Army: 156,000
1 armored division
12 infantry divisions (maintained at 7-9,000 personnel)
2 composite brigades
1 airborne brigade
1 artillery brigade
2 artillery groups
8 SAM groups
5 engineer brigades
1 helicopter brigade (2 bns)
5 helicopter groups (total of 24 sqns/dets)

560 Type 61 MBT
390 Type 74 MBT
425 Type 60 APC
115 Type 73 APC
380 towed 105mm hows
330 towed 155mm and Type 74 and 75 SP hows
70 towed 203mm guns and hows
50 Type 30 SSM
800 81mm mortars
560 107mm mortars
40 Type 75 SP 130mm MRLs
1,400 75mm/Carl Gustav 84mm/105mm RCLs
240 Type 64 ATGM
25 Type 79 ATGM
170 35mm twin, 37mm, 40mm and 75mm AA Guns (some SP)
144 HAWK SAMs
84 IHAWK SAMs
20 LR-1 ac
2 TL-1 ac
10 L-19 ac
2 AH-1S helo
56 KV-107 helo
80 UH-1H helo
65 UH-1B helo
36 TH-55 helo
139 OH-6D/J helo
(on order 84 Type 74 MBT, 9 Type 73 APC, 34 Type 75 155mm, 19 M-110A2 203mm SP, 8 Type 75 SP 130mm MRLs, 9 Type 79 ATGM, 221 Carl Gustav RCL, 49 Stinger, 8 Type 81 SAM, 48 IHAWK, 1 LR-1 ac, 6 OH-6D, 5 UH-1H, 12 AH-1S)
Reserves: 41,000

Navy: 42,000
14 d-e subs (4 Yushio, 7 Uzushio, 3 Asashio)
31 destroyers (2 Shirane, 2 Haruna, 2 Hatsuyuki, 3 Tachikaze, 1 Amatsukaze,
4 Takatsuki, 6 Yamagumo, 3 Minegumo, 3 Murasame, 3 Ayanami)
17 frigates (1 Yubari, 1 Ishikari, 11 Chikugo)
5 large patrol craft
5 FAC(T)
3 MCM support ships
31 coastal minesweepers
6 LST, 2 LSO, 37 LCVP
8 Maritime Recon sqns with 6 P-3C, 58 P-2J, 13 S2F-1, 16 PS-1
6 ASW Helo sqns with 55 HSS-2
1 MCM helo sqn with 7 KV-107
1 tpt sqn with 4 YS-11M, 1 B-65
1 utility sqn with 3 UP-2J
7 SAR flights with 8 US-1 ac; 6 S-61A, 8 S-62B helos
(on order 3 Yushio subs; 1 Hatsuyuki DD; 1 Yubari frigate; 2 MCM ships; 17 P-3C, 2 KM-2, 3 TC-90 ac, 14 HSS-2B, 5 S-61A, 20 H-6D helos)
Reserves: 600

Air Force: 43,000
3 FGA sqns with 56 F-1
1 interceptor sqn with 20 F-15J/DJ
6 interceptor sqns with 112 F-4EJ
3 interceptor sqns with 61 F-104J
1 recon sqn with 12 RF-4EJ
3 tpt sqns with 25 C-1, 6 YS-11
9 SAR detachments with 29 KV-107
10 training sqns with 40 T-1A/B, 59 T-2, 44 T-3, 50 T-33A
19 SAM sqns with 180 Nike-J SAMs
(on order 51 F-15J, 6 F-15DJ, 5 F-1, 4 C-130H, 12 T-2, 6 E-2C AEW)

Japan's basic military policy is to assure its independence and territorial integrity by the maintenance of forces solely for defensive purposes. It maintains a mutual security treaty with the US.

Unique among nations, the Japanese Constitution rejects war or the threat of armed force as instruments of national policy. This viewpoint also reflects the majority of Japanese citizens.

The members of the Japanese Self Defense Forces are considered to be civil servants; there is no separate military legal authority such as is found in the armed forces of practically every other nation in the world. Crimes or offenses committed by Japanese military personnel are tried in civilian courts.

Consistent with its general policy and also reflecting its experience as the only nation to have ever suffered a nuclear attack, Japan refuses to consider the development of nuclear weapons and does not allow the positioning of nuclear weapons on its soil.

Japan' greatest strategic weakness is its lack of material natural resources. Save for coal, Japan is dependent upon imports for all of the raw materials required for its industry. During the oil embargo of 1973, Japan was hard hit (42% of its oil comes from the Middle East) and the steep rise in oil prices threatens Japan's economic position. Japan is particularly concerned about maintaining a friendly situation in South Korea and is uneasy about the possibility that US troops will be withdrawn.

Another vulnerability is the concentration of the Japanese population and its industry, this concentration was a major factor in the US strategic bombing of Japan during WWII. The Japanese heartland is within easy range of air and missile bases in Siberia, North Korea and Red China, to say nothing of missile submarines.

Japan's only foreign alliance is its Treat of Mutual Cooperation and Security with the US. This treaty provides for military assistance as well as the maintenance of a number of bases that were originally established in the post-WWII era. In 1970, Japan announced its intention to continue the treaty in force indefinitely.

[kota1342000]

Outstanding Dragon. Does the series have anything about Indonesia?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by kota1342000

Outstanding Dragon. Does the series have anything about Indonesia?

Per your request and the source is the Military Balance series....

Indonesia at the start of the twilight war...

Population: 160,000,000
Army: 210,000
1 armd cav bde (listed as comprised of 10 armd cav bns....)
13 infantry bdes totaling 39 infantry bns
2 airborne bdes with 6 AB bns
1 field artillery regiment
4 Special Warfare Groups
14 independent field artillery bns
10 independent AA artillery bns
2 construction regiments (4 bns)
8 field engineer battalions
37 independent infantry battalions
Marine Transport
Army Aviation with 1 composite sqn and 1 helo sqn

93 AMX-13 light tanks
41 PT-76 light tanks
75 Saladin armd cars
60 Ferret scout cars
200 AMX-VCI APC
60 Saracen APC
60 V-150 Commando APC
100 BTR-40/-152 APCs
170 76mm guns
28 105mm hows
480 81mm/82mm mortars
480 90mm/106mm RCLs
20 20mm AA guns
90 40mm AA guns
200 57mm AA guns
2 Aero Commander 680 ac
1 Beech 18 ac
6 Bell 205 helo
2 Alouette III helo
16 BO-105 helo
1 LST, 20 LCU, 14 smaller tpt ships (unk types)
(on order 120 105mm hows, 6 Bell 212 helo, 26 Super Puma helos)
Reserves: 19,000

Navy: 42,000 including naval air and marines
3 d-e subs (2 Ger Type 209, 1 Sov W-class)
9 frigates
14 large patrol craft
4 FAC(M)
2 FAC(T)
1 Hydrofoil
8 coastal patrol craft
3 ocean minesweepers
2 minehunters
1 spt ship
13 LST, 3 LCU, 38 LCM
In reserve: 1 frigate, 2 large patrol craft, 2 coastal minesweepers, 1 spt ship
Naval Air: 1,000
1 ASW helo sqn with 10 Wasp
2 MR sqns with 8 Nomad N-22B
other ac incl 6 C-47, 3 Aero Commander, 4 Bell 47G helo, 1 Alouette II helo, 4 BO-105 helo
Marines: 12,000
2 infantry regiments
30 PT-76 light tanks
12 VPX-10 PAC 90 armd cars
38 AMX-10P APCs
(on order 28 VPX-10 PAC 90, 19 AMX-10P, 26 Super Puma helo)

Air Force: 29,000
2 FGA sqns with 27 A-4E, 4 TA-4H
2 interceptor sqns with 11 F-5E, 4 F-5F
1 COIN sqn with 15 OV-10F
1 MR sqn with 1 C-130H, 1 Boeing 737-200, 5 HU-16
3 tpt sqns with 21 C-130H, 1 L-100-30, 1 C-140 Jetstar, 7 C-47, 1 SC-7
Skyvan, 8 F-27, 2 C-212 and 1 Boeing 707
1 liaison sqn with 12 Cessna 207/401/402
1 helo sqn with 5 Bell 204B, 12 Puma, 12 Bell B-47G, 12 Hughes 500, 6 BO-105
1 training sqn with 15 T-34CL, 8 Hawk T-53, 20 AS-202
(on order 2 Boeing 737-200, 32 CN-235, 9 T-34C1, 5 Hawk ac, 7 Puma helo)

Paramilitary forces:
Police Mobile Brigade: 12,000
Militia: est at 70,000
Civil Defense Force: millions registered

The so-called New Order government took power in 1966, following a bloody coup in October 1965 that ousted the Communist-dominated governemnt of President Sukarno. The Sukarno government had been engaged in a confrontation with Malaysia before the coup and was strongly anti-Western. The new government, under President Suharto conducted massacres of Communists and persons suspected of Communist sympathies and established friendly relations with Malaysia, and emphasized economic recovery and stability at home.

Relations with Malaysia remain warm and the two nations are working together to standardize their common language. Relations with Singapore are correct and are becoming more cordial. At the same time, the government's anti-Communist stance is softening to the extent that relations with the Soviet Union are more friendly, and Indonesia has been receiving economic aid.

There are still a few hard-core Communists in Indonesia but recent intelligence estimates suggests only about 1,000 members and about 100 activists; before the 1965 coup, membership was estimated at 1,500,000. Communists are still of concern to the government. Diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China were to have been established in 1977/78, but China's approaches to Indonesian Communists delayed this move. When East Timor was promised independence by Portugal and civil war broke out there in 1975, Indonesia intervened military with "volunteers". Fear of East Timor as a base and refuge for Indonesian Communists, always strong in nearby Java is believed to be the primary reason for Indonesia's intervention. In July 1976, East Timor became Indonesia's 27th provience, a move opposed by Australia, concerned over Indonesian expansion.

The South Moluccan separatists, who have carried out terrorist actions in the Netherlands, have been relatively quiet in Indonesia. There is a West New Guinea liberation movement carrying out sporadic guerrilla activities aimed at ousting Indonesia from that province, officially called Irian Barat. Papua New Guinea, an independent country, formally under Australian mandate, occupies the other half of the island of New Guinea.

Between 1958 and 1965, Indonesia received some $1.2 billion in Soviet military aid. The navy and air force are still almost entirely equipped with Soviet craft, but much of this is nearing the end of its useful life. Until 1965, a Soviet military technical mission was stationed in Indonesia. Since the 1965 coup, no new weapons have been provided although the purchase of limited quantities of spare parts was allowed.

The US resumed a limited military aid program in 1967, this program had been suspended in 1965 in protest over President Sukarno's "Crush Malaysia" policy. From 1955 to 1977, US aid under MAP has totaled $165 million.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Targan

Wow, per capita of population the ROK has an amazing amount of military manpower. I suppose if Kim Jong-Il was my neighbor I'd be hell bent on maintaining my military muscle too.

This is one of the things that has the West up in arms over the DPRK's nuclear program. In a conventional war, the DPRK has to have the support of the Soviet Union and Red China, giving the twilight wars ill-feeling between these two powers, the DPRK's dream of uniting the Korean peninsula is simply not going to happen.

A DPRK with a series of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them upsets the entire balance of power..and just wait until they develop a missile that can reach the West Coast of the US.

[dragoon500ly]

And once again....here is the "other" China and a big thanks to the Military Balance series!

The Republic of China
Population: 18,500,000
Army: 310,000
12 heavy infantry divisions
6 light infantry divisions
6 armd/inf bdes
3 airbonre bdes
4 tank groups
20 field artillery battalions
5 SAM battalions
6 army aviation squadrons

310 M-48 MBT
325 M-24 (upgraded to 90mm gun) light tanks
795 M-41 light tanks
100 M-8 armd cars
150 M-3 half-tracks
1,100 M-113 APCs
150 V-150 Commando APCs
300 M-59 155mm towed hows; 350 M-116 75mm towed pack hows; 550
M-101 105mm towed hows; 90 M-114 towed 155mm hows; 10 M-115 towed
203mm hows; 225 M-108 SP 105mm hows; 125 M-109A1 SP 155mm hows;
75 M-110 SP 203mm hows
1,200 81mm mortars
300 towed and SP 127mm MRLs
150 M-18 tank destroyers
500 106mm RCLs
400 Kun Wu (TOW clone) ATGMs
300 40mm AA guns
400 Nike Hercules SAMs (missiles only)
800 HAWK SAMs (missiles only)
20 Chaparral SAMs
118 UH-1H helo
2 KH-4 helo
7 CH-34 helo
??? Hsiung Feng coastal defence SSM (copy of Gabriel SSM)
??? Ching Feng coastal defence SSM (copy of Nike Hercules)
(on order 164 M-113 APC; 125 M-109A1 SP 155mm hows; 75 M-110 SP 203mm hows; 1,000 TOW ATGM; 370 IHAWK SAMs)

Reserves: 1,500,000 forming 9 additional infantry divisions; an additional 1,300,000 have reserve obligations of some kind)

Navy: 38,000
2 d-e subs, US Guppy II-class
24 destroyers: 11 Gearing; 1 Gearing radar picket; 8 Sumner; 4 Fletcher
9 frigates: 8 Lawrence, 1 Crosley
3 corvettes
28 FAC(M)
5 FAC(T)
28 coastal patrol craft
12 ex US Adjutant and 268 coastal MCM
2 LSD, 23 LST, 4 LSM, 22 LCU, 400 LCVP
1 repair ship
2 transports
7 tankers
(on order, 2 Zwaardvis-class d-e subs; 6 FAC(M))

Reserves: 45,000

Marines: 39,000
3 divisions
200 LVT-4/-5 APCs
125 105mm towed hows
48 155mm towed hows
200 106mm RCLs

Reserves: 35,000

Air Force: 77,000
9 FGA sqns with 82 F-5A, 226 F-5E and 22 F-5F
2 FGA sqns with 42 F-100A/D
2 FGA sqns with 40 F-104D/G
1 interceptor sqn with 19 F-104A
1 recon sqn with 4 RF-104G
1 MR sqn with 9 S-2A, 30 S-2E
1 ASW hel sqn with 12 Hughes 500MD
1 SAR sqn with 8 HU-16B ac, 10 UH-1H helo
6 tpt sqns with 30 C-47, 5 C-54, 1 C-118B, 59 C-119, 10 C-123, 1 Boeing
720B
Trainers include 55 PL-1B, 32 T-33A, 30 T-28, 20 F-5B/F, 68 TF-104G, 6
F-104D, 12 F-100F
2 hel sqns with 7 UH-19, 10 Bell 47G
(on order 60 F-5E/F)

Reserves: 90,000

Paramilitary Forces: Taiwan Garrison Command: 25,000

While the eventual return to the mainland is the stated goal of the ROC, the prospects of accomplishing this by classical invasion decrease. The ROC now emphasizes the capability of fast-moving special units that can reach the mainland and cooperate with anti-Communist or non-Communist risings against the Peking regime. This would take place in a time of turbulence and internal strife on the mainland and would be the first step in the reunion of all CHina under Nationalist leadership.

Meantime, attention goes to the assurance of economic progress and the maintenance of strong armed forces which, while they now seem to be oriented toward effective defense, would be able to act offensively under proper conditions. The defense costs borne and the commitments made testify to the realism of the Nationalist view.

The strategic problem facing the ROC is massive in size, but straightforward. There is only one enemy and only one national policy goal. The governments in Taipei and Peking agree that there is only one China, of which Taiwan is a part. The US acknowledged the existence of this condition in the Shanghai Communique, issued at the end of the Nixon visit to the mainland in 1972 and reaffirmed when the US officially recognized the Peking government in 1978. Taipei now enjoys full recognition from fewer than twenty nations, and this number is decreasing.

In essence, there exists an unfinished civil war. The Nationalists have stated that their goal is the recovery of the mainland. The Peking government has stated that their goal is the recapture of their wayward island.

Obviously, the abrupt withdrawal of US diplomatic recognition of Taiwan in December 1978 shocked Nationalist leaders. President Carter also announced the withdrawal of US troops from the island and abrogation of the Mutual Defense Treaty of 1955. Peking insists that the settlement of the Taiwan problem is a purely Chinese matter and has made no open commitment not to use force. The US has implied however, that there is a tacit understanding to this effect. American officials have also stated that the sale of certain weapons to Taipei would continue. The Communist leaders have not accepted this condition, but have not allowed the American statements to stand in the way of the new relationship with the US.

Under the circumstances, the Nationalists strive to maintain and improve their military forces. They have stated that they will not negotiate with Peking, nor will they seek help from the Soviet Union. This latter course is not without its attractions, not least of which is is that this exposes the PRC to the threat of a major two-front conflict.

Taipei's determination to retain control over the offshore islands---the Quemoy and Matsu groups---has posed a major strategic problem for the Nationalists. Their determination, a strongly fortified position and extensive American assistance have combined to maintain ROC control of the islands. This was accomplished despite repeated and massive bombardments and numerous threats of Communist offensives. The political importance of the islands lies in the fact that the Nationalists still hold more than one province (the islands are part of Fukien Province). The islands also have strategic value, particularly Quemoy, which controls entry to the port of Amoy and sea traffic in the area.

Moving to more specific strategic problems, the Nationalists face a mainland army that, despite its backwardness, is very large. The problems if maintaining an acceptable air situation are paramount. Neither side has the naval capability to execute a sizable amphibious or airborne assault on the other without previous attrition operations of considerable magnitude.

The narrow width of the island of Taiwan poses a significant defense problem. Taiwan's military planners recognize and prepare to cope with this situation. Air bases, all on the west coast, may be subjected to saturation attacks from the mainland, but hardened shelters, modern air-to-air weapons and superior aircraft promise a very costly undertaking for the PRC. All-in-all neither side has the ability to project offensive power.

The only full alliance of the ROC has been the Mutual Security Treaty with the US. In the past, the US has availed itself of the treaty and collateral agreements to base air force units on Taiwan and to use the naval facilities there. Intelligence sharing has been routine and the ROC has been supplied with U-2 aircraft for extended reconnaissance. Several important US communications facilities have been maintained. The island served as a major forward supply and support base for American forces during the Vietnam War. At the war's peak, some 9,000 US troops were stationed in Taiwan. The US declined offers of ROC military participation during the Vietnam War, as it had done during the Korean War. However several ROC civic action groups worked in South Vietnam, assisting the government in rural development programs. All such arrangements are now terminated.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

This is one of the things that has the West up in arms over the DPRK's nuclear program. In a conventional war, the DPRK has to have the support of the Soviet Union and Red China, giving the twilight wars ill-feeling between these two powers, the DPRK's dream of uniting the Korean peninsula is simply not going to happen.

I personally don't think they'll have the support of China or Russia (assuming we're not talking T2K here -- in T2K, the DPRK's nuclear program would be in its infancy) in real life. China has condemned the DPRK's actions, many times over the past few years, and they don't want refugees from the North in China -- to the point of often shooting those who try to cross illegally. The Russians -- they may give material support, but their support for the DPRK has been waning the past decade -- the DPRK doesn't have enough cash or resources to keep Russia interested. The ROKs actually have more up-to-date Russian-built equipment and vehicles in some cases.

[pmulcahy11b]

The Military Balance Series -- is it a set of books or a web site? Or a magazine series? Sounds interesting.

[dragoon500ly]

It was a series of at least 4 books by Trevor Dupuy, they have been out of print since the 1990s. I'm lucky enough to own the 1982 and 1984 versions.

Another good one the Almanac of World Military Power, also by Dupuy, there are supposed to be at least two books in this series, I own the 1980 version.

I have no idea if they are available on any web site, and I haven't seen them available through Amazon or eBay, at least not yet.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

12 Honest John SSMs

Aren't all of these 1 Kiloton nuclear warheads?

Kinda favors the south doesn't it.

The 203mm can throw a 1 kt nuke but, I am sure the honest John only had one warhead type.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Aren't all of these 1 Kiloton nuclear warheads?

Kinda favors the south doesn't it.

The 203mm can throw a 1 kt nuke but, I am sure the honest John only had one warhead type.

Near as I can figure out, if there are any nuke warheads, then they are under US control. The Honest Johns were supposed to have been deactivated in the 1992-1994 period, but, I've also heard that the ROKs have developed a HE warhead, but again, I've not seen anything concrete about that.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I personally don't think they'll have the support of China or Russia (assuming we're not talking T2K here -- in T2K, the DPRK's nuclear program would be in its infancy) in real life. China has condemned the DPRK's actions, many times over the past few years, and they don't want refugees from the North in China -- to the point of often shooting those who try to cross illegally. The Russians -- they may give material support, but their support for the DPRK has been waning the past decade -- the DPRK doesn't have enough cash or resources to keep Russia interested. The ROKs actually have more up-to-date Russian-built equipment and vehicles in some cases.

IRL, the DPRK has almost no chance of knocking out the ROKs, conventional or nuclear (as long as the US maintains a presence in the south). But it is interesting to read about the balancing act that the north has to maintain to avoid falling under control of the Sino/Soviets. It almost makes one wonder if WWIII did break out, will the DPRK simply declare itself neutral?

But canon has the north invading the south...

[dragoon500ly]

And here are the Republic of the Philippines

Population: 50,800,000
Army: 60,000
5 infantry divisions
1 special warfare bde (consists of 2 ranger, 1 mountain bn and 5 scout coys)
2 engineer bdes
1 light armored regiment
4 artillery regiments

28 Scorpion light tanks
80 M-113 APCs
20 Chaimite APCs
200 105mm towed hows
12 155mm towed hows
108 81mm mortars
24 107mm mortars
150 75mm/90mm/106mm RCLs
(on order 12 UH-1H helos)
Reserves: 20,000 forming 18 infantry bns; another 70,000 with reserve commitments

Navy: 28,000 (including 9,600 marines and 2,000 Coast Guard)
7 ex-US frigates (4 Casco, 1 Savage, 1 Cannon)
10 corvettes
3 FAC(M)
16 large patrol craft
59 coastal patrol craft
3 support ships
24 LSTs, 4 LSMs, 61 LCMs, 3 LCUs, 7 LCVPs
1 SAR sqn with 9 Islander ac, 5 BO-105 helos
3 marine bdes (total 9 bns) with 30 LVTP-5, 55 LVTP-7 APCs, 46 105mm towed hows, 100 107mm mortars
Reserves: 12,000

Air Force: 16,800
1 FGA sqn with 24 F-8H
1 interceptor sqn with 19 F-5A, 3 F-5B
1 fighter/training sqn with 10 T-34A
1 COIN sqn with 16 SD-260WP
2 COIN sqns with 20 T-28D
1 Helicopter wing with 50 UH-1H
1 Presidential tpt sqn with 1 Boeing 707, 1 BAC-111, 1 YS-11 ac, 1 S-62A, 2
UH-1N, 1 Puma helo
1 tpt sqn with 4 C-130H
1 tpt sqn with 5 C-47, 8 F-27, 3 F-27MR
1 tpt sqn with 12 Nomad
1 tpt sqn with 12 Islander
1 helo sqn with 12 BO-105
1 liaison sqn with 4 O-1E, 1 Cessna U-17A, 8 Beaver (being withdrawn)
1 weather sqn with 3 Cessna 210
(on order 16 Bell 412, 17 S-76, 2 S-70A5 helos)
Reserves: 16,000

Paramilitary Forces:
Philippine Constabulary: 43,500 forming 1 bde, 13 bns and 180 coys (by law part of armed forces)
Civil Home Defense Force: 65,000

Since its independence in 1946, the Philippines has relied almost exclusively upon the US for external security and used its armed forces essentially for internal security. Recently, the ROP has attempted to establish itself as an independent, nonaligned nation. It maintains its long standing relationship with the US, but it also emphasizes its ties with Japan and its fellow ASEAN nations (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand). Since 1972, it has established diplomatic relations with twelve Communist countries (including the USSR and the PRC) and has also worked for friendly relations with the Arab nations.

Between 1946 and 1950, the Communist-inspired Hukbalahap insurgency came close to destroying the ROP. In between 1952 and 1954, this insurgency was almost eliminated by a combination of military force and clemency. In recent years, however, the insurgency has revived. It centers in the north of the Philippines on Luzon. Martial law was imposed in 1972 to deal with the problem and the estimated number of insurgents dropped from 3,000 to 1,000. However, in 1977 it reportedly rose again to 2,000. Government forces have successfully contained the rebels (now called the New People's Army).

A more serious problem for the ROP is the separatist Moslem rebellion in the southern Philippines, on Mindanao and in the Sulu Archipelago. This insurrection broke out in 1968 and intensified in 1972. More than 20,000 people have been killed since then and as many as 50,000 military personnel have deployed into the area every year. The rebels obtain arms from Libya, which also attempts to mediate. A ceasefire was arranged in 1976, but collapsed within a year. Both negotiations have recently been hampered by conflict with the rebel Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF).

Externally, the Philippines has a ongoing dispute with neighboring Malaysia over the ownership of the state of Sabah, in northeastern Borneo (it is through Sabah that weapons from Libya have been funneled to the MNLF). Malaysia now exercises sovereignty over Sabah, having inherited the 29,000 square mile region from Great Britain. The ROP claims that Britain never legally owned Sabah, which was part of the territory of the Sultan of Sulu, whose island domain is now part of the ROP. Neither side is believed likely to go to war over the dispute, and diplomatic relations, once severed, were resumed in 1969 with agreement that the Sabah dispute be held in abeyance for the time being.

Since 1946, the US has provided some $512.7 million in military assistance as well as substantial economic aid and some $700 million in war rehabilitation in grants and damage claims. A US Military Advisory Group provided extensive advice and assistance and was particularly useful during the Hukbalahap insurgency. To bolster the defense of the ROP, the US entered into three agreements: (1) the Military Bases Agreement which gave the US a ninety-nine year lease on certain military, air and naval bases (now defunct). (2) the Military Assistance Agreement wherein the US pledged to provide military assistance to the ROP (ongoing). (3) the Mutual Defense Treaty in which the ROP and the US pledged to defend each other in the case of foreign attack (ongoing)

The Philippines was an active member in the now-disbanded Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, was strongly opposed to the extension of Communist influence in the region and supported the US war in Vietnam, contributing a 2,000 man civil action group to aid community development efforts. Since the end of the Vietnam War, while maintaining its alliance with the US, it has established friendly ties with Communist and Arab countries and joined the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

[dragoon500ly]

and in the ongoing look at the Far East, here is Malaysia on the eve of the Twilight War

Population: 14,500,000
Army: 80,000
4 division HQ (according to Military Balance, these control variable number of bdes)
9 infantry bdes (total of 36 infantry battalions)
3 cavalry regiments
4 field artillery regiments
1 APC regiment
2 AA Arty bns
1 special warfare regiment
5 engineer regiments

140 AML-series armd cars
60 Ferret scout cars
200 V-100/-150 Commando APCs
40 Condor APCs
12 5.5-inch guns
92 105mm pack hows
120 81mm mortars
40 89mm RL
100 Carl Gustav RCLs
5 120mm RCL
36 SS-11 ATGM
35 40mm AA guns
(on order, 51 Scorpion light tanks; 162 Sibmas APCs; 20 Stormer APCs, 459 Condor APCs)
Reserves:
Malaysian Territorial Army: 45,000
Local Defense Corps: 15,000

Navy: 8,700
2 frigates (1 Yarrow, 1 Type 41)
8 FAC(M)
8 FAC(G)
22 large patrol craft
2 Ton-class coastal minesweepers
2 LST
1 support ship
(on order 4 FAC(M); 4 minehunters, 1 ammunition ship)
Reserves: 1,000

Air Force: 11,000
2 FGA sqns with 14 F-5E, 4 F-5F
2 COIN-training sqns with 11 CL-41G (being replaced by A-4)
1 MR sqn with 3 PC-130H
1 tpt sqn with 6 C-130H
1 tpt sqn with 2 HS-125, 2 F-28, 12 Cessna 402B
2 tpt sqns with 15 DHC-4A
2 helo sqns with 38 S-61A
2 helo sqns with 27 Alouette III
1 training sqn with 10 Bulldog 102, 6 PC-7
1 training sqn with 7 Bell 47, 3 UH-1H helos
(on order 34 A-4S, 6 TA-4, 12 MB-339, 38 PC-7)

Paramilitary Forces:
Police Field Force: 19,000 forming 21 bns equipped with Shorland armd cars, SB-301 APCs, 40 small patrol boats, 4 Cessna 206, 1 C-130H, 1 HS-125M.
People's Volunteer Corps: 350,000

Strategic problems facing Malaysia are (1) the ethnic division of the population, especially between ethnic Chinese and Malays; (2) dangers of a revival of insurgency particularly by ethnic Chinese; (3) the long air-sea lines of communications (roughly 400 miles by air) between peninsular West Malaysia and insular East Malaysia (the states of Sarawak and Sabah in Borneo).

Political power in Malaysia traditionally has been in Malay hands, while economic power has been held by others, chiefly the Chinese, who nearly equal in numbers to the Malay in West Malaysia. From time to time, ethnic violence between the two groups threatens to erupt over imagined or real grievances. The largest outbreak occurred in 1969 leading to a state of emergency that lasted until 1971 and the danger of renewed violence always lurks close to the surface. The ethnic split extends into the military, where the Royal Malay Regiment recruits exclusively among Malay.

During the 1947-1960 Communist insurgency, most of the insurgents where ethnic Chinese. The remnants of the insurgents retreated north of the Thai border in 1959-60 and they have been recruiting, training and conducting propaganda efforts since. The terrorist groups now contain large numbers of ethnic Malay and Chinese recruited and based in Thailand. Cooperation between Malaysian military and police and various Thai authorities has been less than satisfactory from Malaysia's perspective, although combined operations in 1977-78 did succeed in penetrating long-time insurgent base areas. The People's Republic of China continues to support the Communist Party of Malaya, mostly through propaganda, although the PRC's government has declared the Malaysian insurgency an internal problem of the Malaysian government.

East Malaysia has generally presented no major problems since the end of the confrontation with Indonesia in 1966. Small, isolated bands of terrorists near the Sarawak-Kalimantan boundary have limited mischief value. The issue of Sabah has caused diplomatic problems with the Philippines but is not likely to lead to open conflict.

Currently, Malaysia is fully responsible for its own security, although Australia and New Zealand maintains a small military advisory group.

Malaysia is a member of the Five-Power Defense Pact. It is also a member of ASEAN.

[dragoon500ly]

The Republic of Singapore on the eve of the Twilight War...the Military Balance series and the Almanac of World Military Power are the sources.

Population: 2,500,000
Army: 45,000
1 armd bde
3 inf bdes
6 arty bns
1 commando bn
6 engineer bns

273 AMX-13 light tanks
720 M-113 APCs
250 V-150/-200 Commando APCs
36 155mm towed hows
100 60mm mortars
80 81mm mortars
50 120mm mortars
20 89mm RL
200 Carl Gustav RCLs
90 106mm RCLs
40 20mm AA guns
30 40mm AA guns
Reserves: 150,000 forming 2 armd divs, 18 infantry bns, 1 commando bn, 9 arty bns, and 6 engineer bns.

Navy: 4,500
9 FAC(M)
3 large patrol craft
12 Swift-class small patrol craft
2 coastal minesweepers
6 LST, 6 LCVP
(on order 3 FAC(M))

Air Force: 6,000
2 FGA sqns with 41 A-4S/S1, 6 TA-4S
2 FGA sqns with 21 Hunter FGA-74, 7 Hunter FR-74S, 4 Hunter T-75S
1 interceptor sqn with 24 F-5E, 3 F-5F
1 tpt/SAR sqn with 8 C-130B/H, 6 Skyvan
2 helo sqns with 36 UH-1B/H, 3 AB-212, 6 AS-350B
1 training sqn with 18 BAC-167, 6 Jet Provost (nonoperational ?)
1 training sqn with 11 SF-260W, 12 SF-260MS
1 training sqn with 20 T-33A
1 SAM sqn with 28 Bloodhound II
1 SAM sqn with 10 Rapier
1 SAM sqn with 6 IHAWK
1 SAM sqn with 12 RBS-70
(on order 71 A-4S [being rebuilt])

Paramilitary Forces:
Police/Marine Police: 7,500; 10 small patrol craft
People's Defense Force: 30,000

At independence in 1965, Singapore had virtually no defense forces. The Singapore Regiment had more foreigner on its roles than Singaporeans. Since then, the government has taken energetic steps to build up its armed forces and replace expatriates with native Singaporeans. This is a deliberate policy to use the services as a means of integrating the diverse ethnic strains of the population.

Under the Five-Power Defense Pact, a New Zealand Army battalion (less one company) and a Royal Australian Air Force flight are maintained on station in Singapore. Units of the New Zealand and Australian navies call at Singapore from time to time and they, along with forces stationed in the republic, carry out combined maneuvers.

It is difficult to consider the defense of Singapore separate from the defense of Malaysia. However, the circumstances surrounding Singapore's secession from Malaysia, as well as other factors have limited cooperation between the armed forces of the two states. Singapore has pursued defense policies designed to demonstrate the credibility of going it alone, while, at the same time, it maintains a close watch on security matters in West Malaysia.

Limited training areas have hampered the armed services, especially the army. At one time, army units were deployed to Taiwan for battalion-level training, but this has been halted. Talks are currently being held about the feasibility of using training areas in the Philippines.

Singapore is a member of the Five-Power Defence Pact that includes Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. Singapore also belongs to ASEAN. It is considered to be very likely that Singapore would enter into a regional security arrangement if this should prove feasible.

[dragoon500ly]

Looking over the numbers for Singapore and the South Korea...its hard to guess who has a stronger military, as a percentage of the overall population....

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

But it is interesting to read about the balancing act that the north has to maintain to avoid falling under control of the Sino/Soviets. It almost makes one wonder if WWIII did break out, will the DPRK simply declare itself neutral?

But canon has the north invading the south...

It's hard to imagine the Kims not taking the chance to retake the South, feasible or otherwise. With American troops engaged in Europe, Korea will never get another such chance. Surely the USSR would promise something to the DPRK to get Red Koreans crossing the border.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Webstral

It's hard to imagine the Kims not taking the chance to retake the South, feasible or otherwise. With American troops engaged in Europe, Korea will never get another such chance. Surely the USSR would promise something to the DPRK to get Red Koreans crossing the border.

True, but one can almost see the Kims taking a neutral course, at least until the super powers were no longer able to intervene and then striking when the South least expects it. Especially if they can get their hands on some nuclear warheads for their FROGs. But its just idle musing.

IRL, the Kims are fully capable of convincing themselves that the time is right for the long awaited liberation of the South ala Red Phoenix.

[dragoon500ly]

And here is the Socialist Republic of Vietnam at the start of the Twilight War.
Sources are the Military Balance series and the Almanac of World Military Power.

Population: 57,200,000
Army: 1,200,000
1 armd div
58 infantry divs (ranging in strength from 5,000 to 15,000)
10 marine bdes
7 engineer divisions
15 economic construction divisions (and no I have no idea what they really do)
4 independent engineer bdes
6 independent armored regts

[much ex-US equipment is inoperable]
1,500 T-34/-54/-55/-62/Type 59 MBTs
400 M-48 MBTs
450 PT-76/Type 60/Type 63/M-41 light tanks
300 M-8/M-20/BRDM-2 armored cars
1,500 BTR-50/-60/Type 56/K-63 APCs
800 M-113/V-100 Commando APCs
300 76mm/85mm/100mm/122mm guns
200 130mm guns/M-107 SP 175mm hows
400 75mm pack/105mm/122mm/155mm towed hows
100 152mm towed hows
200 M-109A1 SP 155mm/M-110 SP 203mm hows
90 SU-76/SU-100/ISU-122 assault guns
400 Type 63 107mm/BM-21 122mm/BM-14-6 140mm MRLs
2,000 81mm/82mm/107mm/120mm/160mm mortars
1,800 75mm/82mm/107mm RCLs
4,000 23mm/30mm/37mm/40mm/57mm/85mm/100mm/130mm AA guns
400 Type 63 37mm/M-42 40mm/ZSU-23-4/ZSU-57/2 SP AA guns
800 SA-2/-3/-6/9 SAMs

Navy: 8,000
4 frigates (2 ex-Sov, 2 ex-US)
8 FAC(M)
8 FAC(T)
12 large patrol craft
9 coastal patrol craft
6 LST (3 ex-Sov, 3 ex-US)
1 SAR sqn with 10 Mi-4

Air Force: 12,500
3 FGA sqns with 68 MiG-17/F-5A, 43 Su-7/-20
6 interceptor sqns with 176 MiG-21bis/F/PF
transports include 20 An-2/Li-2; 9 AN-24; 50 An-26; 2 An-30; 6 Tu-34;
11 Yak-40; 7 Il-14; 2 Il-18; 2 C-130B; 1 DC-3; 4 DC-4; 2 DC-6;
2 Boeing 707; 7 U-17
Helos include 22 Mi-6; 38 Mi-8; 22 Mi-24; 14 Ka-25; 49 UH-1
17 SAM regts with 400 SA-2/-3

Paramilitary Forces:
Border Defense Forces: 60,000
Militia: 1,500,000

In the wake of the collapse of South Vietnam in 1975, the armed forces assumed responsibility for garrisoning the south, rooting out the remaining resistance forces and providing cadres to assist in the administration of the newly won territory and its population. At the same time, they had to provide continued support for their allies in Laos. Rather than demobilize, available evidence indicated that Vietnam actually increased the size of its military.

During the post war period, the military, in addition to its normal role, also assumed responsibility for reconstruction, including support for ambitious plans to increase agriculture and industry as well as long-term massive internal shifts of population.

As relations with Cambodia and China became strained, Vietnam's military was under pressure to provide more protection for the nation's borders. After several years of border incidents, the government sent troops into Cambodia in 1978. Assisted by anti-Khmer Rouge forces, they rapidly gained control of virtually all of Cambodia and deposed the Pol Pot government. China reacted by invading Vietnam in 1979. Chinese made significant gains, but before the strongly resisting Vietnamese could mobilize on a major scale, Peking ordered its troops to withdraw. By mid 1979, Vietnam had friendly neighbors in Cambodia and Laos and a stable condition on the Chinese border.

The increasing acerbity of Sino-Vietnamese relations, resulting in the cessation of all assistance from China and the cutting of land communications from the USSR through China, compels Vietnam to rely more on shipping from Eastern Europe and the USSR. However, available port facilities in Vietnam are limited. This resulted in a joint USSR-Vietnamese effort to restore and improve the US-constructed port at Cam Ranh Bay in return for increased Soviet assistance. With the granting of basing rights to the Red Navy, China has been further alienated by the increased the PRC's apprehension about the Soviet's presence in Southeastern Asia waters.

As Vietnam's relations with China worsen, Vietnamese diplomatic efforts among the AESAN states has increased, an indicator of Hanoi's sense of isolation. Thailand, omitted from the early Vietnamese efforts as a demonstration of residual Vietnamese resentment of the Thai role in the Indochina War, was included with its AESAN partners.

Vietnam relied on and received heavy and continuing economic and military support from the USSR and the PRC prior to 1975. When China withdrew its support, Vietnam relied on the massive amounts of US equipment captured with the fall of the South. But as the use of this equipment has used up available stockpiles of spare parts, Vietnam has increased its reliance on the USSR.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

(weirdly enough, if things keep trending the way they are we may well end up as military allies with Vietnam...go figure!)

[dragoon500ly]

Just for grins, here is what the Military Balance and World Military Powers has to say about Australia at the start of the Twilight War (please! be gentle!!!)

Population: 15,438,000
Army: 32,850
1 infantry divisions (of 3 bdes of 2 inf bns ea)
1 armored regt
2 cavalry regts
4 artillery regiments (1 med, 2 field, 1 AD)
1 field engineer regt
1 construction regt
1 Special Air Services regiment
1 aviation regt
1 transport regiment
1 transport air support regt

103 Leopard 1A3 MBT
790 M-113 APC (includes 63 fitted with 76mm guns [48 w/Scorpion; 15
w/Saladin turrets])
34 5.5-inch guns
227 105mm hows
51 106mm RCLs
20 Rapier SAMs
16 Porter ac
11 Nomad ac
47 Bell 206B-1 helos
87 LARC-5 amph vehicles
(on order 36 M-198 155mm hows)
Reserves: 30,306

Navy: 17,146 (including Fleet Air Arm)
6 Oberon-class d-e subs
3 Perth-class destroyers
2 Adelaide-class frigates
6 River-class frigates
20 large patrol craft
2 Ton-class MCM
6 LCT
1 transport
1 destroyer tender
1 fleet tanker

Fleet Air Arm: 1,650
1 composite sqn with 7 S-2G, 2 HS-748 (ECM)
1 ASW sqn with 6 Sea King Mk 50
1 utility/SAR sqn with 16 Wessex 31B, 4 UH-1B, 4 Bell 206B helos
1 training sqn with 5 MB-326H, 2 TA-4G, 4 A-4G
In storage: 10 S-2G, 3 MB-326ac, 3 Wessex helo
(on order 2 Adelaide-class frigates, 6 large patrol craft, 2 MCM catamarans, 6 AS-530 helos, 2 Sea King helos)

Reserves: 1,200 with 5 small patrol craft, 1 LCT

Air Force: 22,477
2 FGA/recon sqns with 16 F-111C, 4 F-111A, 4 RF-111C
3 interceptor sqns with 56 Mirage IIIO
2 MR sqns with 10 P-3B, 10 P-3C
1 OCU sqn with 15 Mirage IIIO/D, 10 MB-326H
1 forward air controller flight with 6 CA-25 Winjeel
2 tpt sqns with 24 C-130E/H
1 tpt flight with 4 Boeing 707-338 (converting to tankers)
1 tpt sqn with 4 DHC-4 ac, 4 UH-1B helo
1 tpt sqn 15 DHC-4
1 tpt sqn with 2 BAC-111, 2 HS-748, 3 Mystere 20
1 med tpt helo sqn with 8 CH-47 Chinook
2 utility helo sqns with 35 UH-1B/H
Trainers include 64 MB-326H, 8 HS-748T2, 51 CT-4/4A
In storage: 4 CH-47 Chinook helos
(on order 75 F/A-18A FGA/interceptors, 10 P-3C MR/ASW, 12 AS-530 helos)
Reserves: 1,200


In 1957, Australia made a fundamental decision to relate the organization and the equipping of its armed forces to United States patterns, which was a major shift from Australia's traditional military relationship with the United Kingdom. While this did not mean any loosening of Australia's Commonwealth ties, it did mean that Australia was realistically conforming to the changed pattern of power in the Pacific and Southwest Asia, where Britain was deliberately reducing its military commitments and responsibilities.

Australia supported the now disbanded Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) and its commitment to the defense of South Vietnam against Communist aggression. It sent troops to fight beside the Americans and South Vietnamese, while at the same time undertaking a civil program in SOuth Vietnam coordinated with those of the Vietnamese and American governments. In 1971, the Australian troop contingent was withdrawn. A new Labor Party government stopped all participation in the Indochina War in 1972.

The announced withdrawl of most United Kingdom forces from Southeast Asia in 1972 posed a difficult problem for Australia, with its limited population. However, the Five-Power Pact of 1971 has provided a solution that appears satisfactory to all concerned: Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and the United Kingdom. Australia's contribution to the Australia-New Zealand-U.K. (ANZUK) Force consists of units of the three nations, some on permanent station and some on rotation. With headquarters in Singapore, units also serve in Malaysia. In emergency, the bulk of the five-power forces would come from Malaysia and Singapore.

Several years after World War II, Australia abandoned wartime conscription and returned to a policy of voluntary enlistment. This failed to provide adequate manpower and in 1965 Australia returned to a limited selective service system, in which young men served for 18 months followed by 3 years in the reserve. Conscription was abolished again in 1972.

In general, due to Australia's remoteness from the conflicts of Europe and Asia and its insular geography, strategic problems have been relatively minor. However, with the British decision to withdraw from Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean, and the impact of modern weapons and transportation technologies, Australia has become more directly concerned with affairs in Asia, particularly Southeast Asia.

Australians are worried about the attraction that their large, rich and sparsely populated country has for the overpopulated nations of East and Southeast Asia. They are particularly concerned that Indonesia, having obtained West Irian (western New Guinea) from the Netherlands, may wish to extend farther eastward to threaten formerly Australian Papua New Guinea. Australia opposed Indonesian incorporation of formerly Portuguese East Timor in 1976.

There are also possibly long term strategic implications in the growing dependence of the Australian economy on trade with Japan. In 1976, a Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation was signed with Japan.

Australia has recently become concerned about Soviet expansion into the Indian Ocean. In 1976 the new Liberal-National government began a five-year $15 billion program to enlarge and update the armed services.

On a wholly cooperative basis, Australia exchanges students at military schools with the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Canada and the United States and exchanges information with these nations within existing alliances. Otherwise, Australia is not the recipient of any formal military assistance.

Australia provided $40.6 million in military assistance to both Malaysia and Singapore between 1964 and 1969. This was accomplished through training missions, either by training in Australia or by transfer of equipment.

Australia is a member of four major overlapping alliances. First, as a member of the Commonwealth, Australia maintains close military ties with the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and to a lesser extent with Canada and the other Commonwealth nations, and it is a member of the Five-Power Pact.

Second, Australia has had a bilateral mutual assistance treaty with the US since 1951. Third, there have been formal and informal cooperative bilateral defense arrangements between Australia and New Zealand, aside from their Commonwealth relationship, since World War II. Fourth, these two bilateral relationships were linked together formally in the Australia-New Zealand-United States (ANZUS) Treaty in 1952.

[Legbreaker]

That unit list for Australia only deals with the regular army and has completely skipped over the reserve forces (which form another Division and round out the first).