Japan in Twilight 2000

[John Farson]

Hello, long-time lurker, first-time poster!

Something I've wondered about in Twilight 2000 is the situation in Japan after the nuclear exchange. I recall it being said in 2300AD that Japan emerged from the war more or less unscathed and that it was able to rebuild and prosper thanks to its merchant fleet, which was more or less intact. I thought such a concept was BS, because IRL Japan is very dependant on foreign trade and imports of natural resources and raw materials, like oil. According to this site, Japan's food self-sufficiency declined from 73 per cent in 1965 to 40 per cent in 1998. In addition, Japan has the lowest food self-sufficiency ratio among the advanced industrial nations and is the world's largest importer of agricultural products.

In a situation where the Russian/Soviet government faced nuclear distruction, I doubt they'd treat Japan with kid gloves, due to historical (Russo-Japanese War, World War II, historical rivalry of power and influence in the Far East) and geopolitical reasons. Just the concept of "deny critical resources to your enemy" would be sufficient grounds for the Russians to nuke not just the U.S bases in Okinawa and mainland Japan, but also critical strategic, political and industrial targets in order to make sure that the Japanese won't be landing forces in Vladivostok or stuff like that.

For the aforementioned reasons, it is my belief that post-TDM Japan would be the Asian version of Threads UK, i.e. utterly fucked. But I like to know what others here think, since I'm no expert with regards to these things.

BTW, the Finnish Twilight 2000 sourcebook has this to say about Japan: Fighting over the Kuriles and Sakhalin brought nuclear strikes on Japan in 1997. Japanese industry suffered significant damage and Tokyo is almost destroyed. Martial law hasn't been officially declared, but many areas are ruled de facto by JSDF officers who also possess civilian government posts. All communities are either isolated or independent, though nominally controlled by the government. The major cities have been destroyed, mostly due to social unrest caused by the cessation of world trade and imports.

[kato13]

Welcome Aboard.

[Legbreaker]

Welcome indeed.

Japan as far as I am aware was not a military ally of either side and did not directly take part in the fighting. Obviously it was still effected in some way, and I tend to agree it would have attracted at least a few nukes (I can see Japan being used in a similar manner as it was during the Vietnam and Korean wars, as a rear area for Nato).

With regard to food and other supplies, it's in a fairlly good position. While unable to support itself on the whole, it does have the advantage of being surrounded by sea and therefore much less able to be attacked by land forces. With all possible enemies already engaged in other parts of the world, this is probably less important than the availablity of fishing.

It may also have continued trade with Australia for it's grain and meat, although if it had been nuked, or even after EMP had effectively wiped out anything electronic, I'm not too sure what it would have to trade with. Spare parts to get damaged systems back up and running is possibly the best option, however Japan itself is unlikely to have much in the way of high tech production facilities left.

[John Farson]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Welcome indeed.

Japan as far as I am aware was not a military ally of either side and did not directly take part in the fighting. Obviously it was still effected in some way, and I tend to agree it would have attracted at least a few nukes (I can see Japan being used in a similar manner as it was during the Vietnam and Korean wars, as a rear area for Nato).

With regard to food and other supplies, it's in a fairlly good position. While unable to support itself on the whole, it does have the advantage of being surrounded by sea and therefore much less able to be attacked by land forces. With all possible enemies already engaged in other parts of the world, this is probably less important than the availablity of fishing.

It may also have continued trade with Australia for it's grain and meat, although if it had been nuked, or even after EMP had effectively wiped out anything electronic, I'm not too sure what it would have to trade with. Spare parts to get damaged systems back up and running is possibly the best option, however Japan itself is unlikely to have much in the way of high tech production facilities left.

Thanks.

Good points. I agree that Japan wouldn't have been involved in the actual fighting, since its constitution prohibits it from any aggressive military action (even peacekeeping missions are controversial there). I have my doubts if they would have even tried to grab the Kuriles or Sakhalin, though the US would have no such hang-ups. The Kuriles are important to them, yes, but I don't think they'd be worth inviting a Russian nuclear attack. Therefore, I think any TW2000 fighting occurring around the Kuriles and Sakhalin was between US and allied forces and Russia, with Japan acting as a rear area, like you said.

About food, yes fishing is definitely in the cards. After all seafood, apart from rice, is the Japanese staple food. But with the nuclear attacks, the collapse in international trade and trade routes, the disruption in communications and the collapse of the transportation network I'm not as positive as you that Japan would stave off the worst disaster. True, Japan doesn't face invastion or any of that (what with China glowing in the dark and Siberia imitating the Mad Max flicks), but its worst enemies aren't China and Russia: It's famine, disease and social unrest. Just like the US Norhteast in Howling Wilderness, I can imagine hordes of hungry survivors from Japan's nuked out cities descending onto the countryside like locusts, devouring everything in their path despite staunch attempts by the rural folk to turn them back.

As for trade... well, based on what little I know about Twilight 2000 Asia and Oceania, it seems the only intact states left that Japan can trade with are Thailand, Australia and New Zealand, with organized communities scattered all over the place in the rest of the Pacific Rim with areas of lawlessness in between. All of these places are pretty far from Japan, so any trade venture wouldn't come cheap or easy. Fuel ranging from scarce to non-existant (I guess people would resort to steam or sail ships instead), GPS being a thing of the past, shortage of people who actually know how to sail and navigate etc. Then of course there's the issue of piracy. I imagine that after TDM the world's seas and oceans would have a piracy problem that'd make the one off Somalia look like a piece of cake by comparison. I can see many ordinary fisherman moonlighting as pirates just to make ends meet and feed their families.

And you touched upon the issue of just what would Japan (or rather individual Japanese communities, since central government would be more or less a bad joke at this point) have to trade. Spare parts for damaged systems would be a definite product, but like you said, it'd be unlikely that Japan would be able to produce them in sufficient quantities. Not to mention that the Japanese might prefer to keep them for themselves in the hope of fixing and rebuilding their own equipment. I could see an enterprising local leader or warlord do what the leader of Pittsburgh does in Fallout 3: the Pitt, that is using impressed "workers" to scavenge steel and metal as resources for the reopened steel mills and factories.

[Targan]

Hello John. You've really started posting here with a bang haven't you? Good topic for a thread, I like it. I agree that Japan would be a horrible mess by 2000. The fighting in Korea during the Twilight War was fierce, that alone would have resulted in some sort of spill-over effects for Japan. Japan would definitely have been nuked more than canon says.

Do you have an English translation of the Finnish Sourcebook?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Do you have an English translation of the Finnish Sourcebook?

Does anyone? This is the one T2K resource that I'd love to have, but due to the language issues, will probably never get.

Japan today is almost certainly overcrowded (just look at their trains), however a few nukes on the major cities should reduce this to a more managable level. Japan in years gone past has managed to feed itself, so provided the population was to drop to say 19th century levels, there shouldn't be too many empty stomachs compared to arible land.

Piracy in SE Asia is a definate problem even now. It's no uncommon for yachts, small boats even the odd larger cargo ship to be boarded. This problem as you point out is only likely to spread as long as there is trade being carried on in the region.

A route from Japan to Australia and New Zealand may avoid these troubles by staying well away from the tropical islands and heading along the Marianas, down to the Solomons, then either Fiji/Tonga if going to New Zealand, or Noumea. Not exactly the quickest of routes, but does avoid the traditionally dangerous waters around Indonesia and the Phillipines. With (sparsely) inhabited islands scattered along the path, navigation shouldn't be too hard provided an accurate compass and maps are on hand.

Sail power will of course be the easiest, however this isn't all that condusive to shifting large cargos of badly needed grain. The good news however is that coal should be readily available in Australia, particuarly in the Woolongong and Newcastle areas (respectively south and north of Sydney about a 100 miles or so). Newcastle also has a good deep water port and a history as an industrial city.

The problem is though that Newcastle, and to a lesser extent Wollongong are probable nuclear targets, primarily because of their coal, steel and ports (they're in my top 6 Australian target list). Another problem is Coal ceased to be a commonly used ship fuel a number of years ago. It would take time to convert diesel powered shipping (if it's even possible), however up until say mid 98 to early 99 I can see the government doing everything it could to keep trade with Japan continuing (Australia will desperately need the electonics to repair EMP damaged infrastructure).

[RN7]

Its true that Japan post-1945 has been a peaceful nation. However despite its constitution many factors would make it a prime target for a Soviet nuclear and conventional attack.

Firstly Japan is a military ally of the United States, in fact its military relationship with America could be said to be on a par with Britain if you exclude nuclear technology. Japanese defense policy has been based on maintaining the 1960 Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security with the United States, under which Japan assumed responsibility for its own internal security and the United States agreed to join in Japan's defense in the event that Japan or its territories were attacked.

Secondly Japan has a large and sophisticated defence industry. Japan builds most of its own vehicles, aircraft and ships, and they are to large degree Japanese designed. Of the defence equipment it does import, America is by far the biggest source. Japan has the industrial base to license build any imported weapon from the F-15 to artillery guns, and in fact the current Japanese F-2 fighter is basically a heavily upgraded F-16C.

Thirdly Japan is a major industrial power and by far the most technologically advanced country in Asia. At the time of the Twilight War Japan was second only to the United States and Soviet Union in manufacturing and industrial production across a whole range of industries, and was a world leader in automobiles, metallurgy, chemicals, pharmaceuticals and electronics. It also had the largest ship building industry in the world and a highly capable aerospace sector. It was also second only to the United States and the Soviet Union in electricity production, and its nuclear power industry was as big as the Soviet Union in output.

Fourthly Japan's is a major military power in its own right. It has one of the largest and best equipped navies in Asia, and its air force is the best air defence force in Asia, although for political reasons its lags in attack capabilities. The Japanese Ground Self Defence Force had 13 Divisions (1 Armoured, 12 Infantry) and 4 Independent Brigades (1 Airborne, 1 Artillery, 2 Mixed), and was at least as well equipped as any Asian rival.

Fifthly it is no secret that Japan has the capability to build nuclear weapons if it wanted. Japan started looking into nuclear weapons development following China's successfull atom-bomb test in 1964, and one of the main reasons why China's nuclear arsenal hasn't expanded much over the past few decades is probably due to fear of provoking a regional nuclear arms race with Japan, and also why there is a lot of fuss in Asia about North Korean missile tests and nuclear development. Japan also has its own successfull space program which uses Japanese designed rockets to launch satellites into orbit. The M-3S-II which was first launched in 1985 is considered to be capable of a surface-to-surface range of 4,000 km with a 500 kg payload. The newer M-V rocket which started devlopment in 1989 and was first launched in 1997 is more than twice the weight of the M-3S-II. It is capable of placing an 1,800 kg cargo into low earth orbit or injecting a 300-400-kg payload into space for planetary surveys, and is considered capable of intercontinental ranges if converted into a ballistic missile. Both the M-3S-II and M-V have been compared with American ICBMs, and if converted to ballistic missiles the M-V would likely give Japan an ICBM roughly equivalent to the MX Peacekeeper, although it would be not easy for Japan to convert to military applications for anumber of reasons.

Finally by looking at the deployments of US forces in Japan it is easy to see why Japan would be targeted by Soviet nuclear forces.

Current and recent US military forces in Japan

US Army Japan/I Corp (Forward) (Camp Zama, Kanagawa Prefecture)
• 1st Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group (Okinawa)
• 1st Battalion, 1st Air Defence Artillery Regiment (Kadena AB, Okinawa)
• 78th Aviation Battalion
• 35th Combat Support Battalion
• 88th Military Police Detachment
• 441st Military Intelligence Battalion
• 83rd Ordinance Battalion (Kure, with detachments at Hiro, Kawakami, Chibana)
9th Mission Support Command (Camp Zama, Kanagawa Prefecture)
• 78th Signal Battalion
• 836th Transportation Battalion (Yokohama)
10th Area Support Group (Torri Station, Okinawa)
• 2nd Joint Special Operations Aviation Component
• 58th Signal Battalion (Fort Buckner, Okinawa)
• 505th Quartermaster Battalion
• 835th Transportation Battalion (Naha Point, Okinawa)

* Recent Army deployments to Japan

300th Area Support Group
429th Quartermaster Battalion


US Air Force
Fifth Air Force (Yokota AB, Tokyo)
18th Wing (Kadena AB, Okinawa)
• 18th Operations Support Squadron
• 44th Fighter Squadron (F-15C/D)
• 67th Fighter Squadron (F-15C/D)
• 909th Air Refueling Squadron (KC-135R)
• 961st Airborne Air Control Squadron (E-3B/C)
• 33d Rescue Squadron (HH-60G)
35th Fighter Wing (Misawa AB, Aomori Prefecture)
• 35th Operations Support Squadron
• 13th Fighter Squadron (F-16CJ/DJ)
• 14th Fighter Squadron (F-16CJ/DJ)
• 610th Air Control Flight
374th Airlift Wing (Yokota AB, Tokyo)
• 374th Operations Support Squadron
• 36th Airlift Squadron (C-130H)
• 459th Airlift Squadron (UH-1N, C-12)
Detachment, 94th Fighter Squadron (Kadena AB, Okinawa) (F-22)

* Recent Air Force deployments to Japan

12th Fighter Squadron (Kadena AB, Okinawa) (F-15C/D)


US Marines
III Marine Expeditionary Force (Camp Courtney, Okinawa)
• 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit
• 3rd Marine Expeditionary Brigade
3rd Marine Division (Camp Courtney, Okinawa)
• 3rd Marine Regiment
• 4th Marine Regiment
• 12th Marine Regiment (Camp Hansen, Okinawa)
3rd Marine Logistics Group (Camp Courtney, Okinawa)
1st Marine Air Wing (Kadena AB, Okinawa)
Marine Air Group 12 (Iwakuni, Yamaguchi Prefecture) (F-18)
Marine Air Group 36 (Futenma, Okinawa) (CH-46, CH-53, KC-130R)
Marine Air Control Group 18 (Futenma, Okinawa)

US Navy
7th Fleet (Yokosuka)
Submarine Group 7 (Yokosuka)
Expeditionary Strike group 7 (Okinawa)
• Amphibious Squadron 11 (Sasebo)
• Mine Countermeasure Division 11 (Sasebo)
HSL-14 (NAS Atsugi) (SH-60)
CVN 63 George Washington
• Carrier Air Wing 5
• George Washington Strike Group

* Recent Navy deployments to Japan

CV 63 Kitty Hawk
CV 41 Midway

[Legbreaker]

I think you're missing some important points there RN7...

Japan is resource poor. It imports virtually all raw materials so that it can produce the high tech equipment it does. Once the war turns nuclear, perhaps even before, the flow of raw materials will be disrupted.

It's worth looking at CA's post above for reasons why Japan cannot be a significant threat to it's neighbours. Given a decade or so and a radical shift in public opinion, this may change, but it's not likely.

Yes Japan probably can produce nukes. Yes, it has the capability of delivering a few of them, but it doesn't have the ability to deliver more than one or two at a time as it's space facilities aren't set up for it (they are after all primarily civilian in nature and design). It wouldn't take more than a few cruise missiles or decent airstrike to effectively destroy that capability.

And finally, the list of units you've posted is PRE war. Very few of the ground units, and virtually none of the naval units will be there circa 1997-98 when the nukes are fired. There is a possibility that the air units will be present, at least the rear area services, but there's also a strong posibility that many of these will have been shifted to other theatres.

I believe Japan is still nukeworthy, however less than one may immediately think. Major industrial centres are likely to take the brunt of the attack and possibly military targets also if there is strong intel significant forces remain in barracks. The cities themselves are unlikely to have been targeted directly, however as industry relies on population, the destruction of the cities is still almost certain.

[RN7]

I think you're missing some important points there RN7...

Japan is resource poor. It imports virtually all raw materials so that it can produce the high tech equipment it does. Once the war turns nuclear, perhaps even before, the flow of raw materials will be disrupted.

Much of Europe is also resource poor, including France. In fact Japan's lack of resources such as oil, and small coal and metal reserves is very similar to France. Both countries also have nuclear power industries second only to America.

It's worth looking at CA's post above for reasons why Japan cannot be a significant threat to it's neighbours. Given a decade or so and a radical shift in public opinion, this may change, but it's not likely.

Do you realy think that Japan's self expressed pacifism or apathy towards the military is going to stop the Soviets launching nuclear missiles at them during an all out war with America and NATO?

Yes Japan probably can produce nukes. Yes, it has the capability of delivering a few of them, but it doesn't have the ability to deliver more than one or two at a time as it's space facilities aren't set up for it (they are after all primarily civilian in nature and design).

Yes it does have the ability to build nuclear weapons (mainly low yield plutonium derived ones), and no it doesn't have the capability to deliver nuclear weapons, but if it felt its national security was in danger by an Asian rival such as China or North Korea it could instigate a programme of upgrading its current rocket technology to military application.

It wouldn't take more than a few cruise missiles or decent airstrike to effectively destroy that capability.

Well if the Soviets respected Japanese neutrality why would they be using cruise missiles or airstrikes against Japan. And if you take out the space facilities your probably going to have to go after the nuclear programme as well and Japan's nuclear power stations.

And finally, the list of units you've posted is PRE war. Very few of the ground units, and virtually none of the naval units will be there circa 1997-98 when the nukes are fired. There is a possibility that the air units will be present, at least the rear area services, but there's also a strong posibility that many of these will have been shifted to other theatres.

Actually the list is 2009, but they were in Japan during the 90's. And yes some of the air, marine and naval units would have gone to Korea and the Middle East, but the logistical importance of US bases would remain for all US forces in the Pacific region. However many forces, particularly units designated to the air defence of Japan are there specifically to defend Japan at the request of the Japanese government.

I believe Japan is still nukeworthy, however less than one may immediately think. Major industrial centres are likely to take the brunt of the attack and possibly military targets also if there is strong intel significant forces remain in barracks. The cities themselves are unlikely to have been targeted directly, however as industry relies on population, the destruction of the cities is still almost certain.

Well I don't understand your logic. On one hand your saying the Japanese constitution and general Japanese pacifism and apathy towards the military would deter a Soviet attack, yet on the other hand your saying that Japanese industrial centres, military targets and cities would still be attacked.

[kato13]

IMO in 1996 Japan will begin cranking out military materials and Supplying them to China. Once the Korean peninsula goes hot they would supply that theater as well.

Japan produced military materials to support the United States during the Korean war which IIRC amounted to more than a quarter of their exports for a few years.

I cannot see them ignoring such a ripe economic plum of China if the Americans and Europeans are getting rich. If the US is willing to pay top dollar for supplies for the Korean theater I think Japan would be happy to take economic advantage of that situation. The reduced distances to both Korean and Chinese ports would make Japan's trade even more profitable.

This would move them up the Sov's target priority list IMHO.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think one should not under-estimate the bad feeling that the Russian have towards the Japanese due to a string of Russian defeats during the Russo-Japanese war along with the disputes over several islands. Nor the Japanese feelings towards the Russian for the capture of those islands, the dispute still causes tension 60 years after the Russians seized them.

I'm not saying that alone would cause the Soviet Union to use nuclear weapons against Japan but it would probably make any decision to attack Japan a little easier.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I think one should not under-estimate the bad feeling that the Russian have towards the Japanese due to a string of Russian defeats during the Russo-Japanese war along with the disputes over several islands. Nor the Japanese feelings towards the Russian for the capture of those islands, the dispute still causes tension 60 years after the Russians seized them.

I'm not saying that alone would cause the Soviet Union to use nuclear weapons against Japan but it would probably make any decision to attack Japan a little easier.

Korea was a Russian client state until the 1905 war with Japan. loss of more than islands occurred, power and prestige was captured/lost as well. Regional power could cause the hard liners to strike Japan, and the JMSDF would need to be weakened as well.

[RN7]

IMHO Japan was definitely attacked by the Soviet Union in T2K. It is just too important a country to avoid it for a whole number of reasons. ie US military bases, industrial and logistical infrastructure, oil refineries, the national technological base and the size of the Japanese armed forces.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by RN7

Well I don't understand your logic. On one hand your saying the Japanese constitution and general Japanese pacifism and apathy towards the military would deter a Soviet attack, yet on the other hand your saying that Japanese industrial centres, military targets and cities would still be attacked.

Of course it's nukeworthy. It's just not wipe of the face of the planet worthy.
There are far more important targets out there for a relatively limited number of nukes than attacking what may well be secondary, or even tertiary targets in an officially "pacifistic" country.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Of course it's nukeworthy. It's just not wipe of the face of the planet worthy.
There are far more important targets out there for a relatively limited number of nukes than attacking what may well be secondary, or even tertiary targets in an officially "pacifistic" country.

destroying several major metropolitan areas as well as targeting industry and disrupting imports will send the nation into a downward spiral that will quagmire it in anarchy and horror for decades .

No need to bring it down to 0 meters above sea level I would think .

all imho .

On the other hand , there could be made valid points that if this and that occurred the Japanese would be spared by the Soviets - for instance if they renounced their tie sto the west and bared their throats so to speak in submission to Kremlin.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

John, I'd like to ask if you could translate the following please: -

"TK-Kustannus otti käyttöön hienomman nimen FGH (Finnish Game House). Se teki ensimmäisen pelinsä kääntämällä GDW:n pelin Twilight 2000, joka käsittelee ydinsodan jälkeistä aikaa. Siihen julkaistiin myös kaksi suomalaisten tekemään lisäosaa . Twilight ilmeisesti rokotti resursseja niin paljon, että Seikkailijaa ilmestyi vain yksi numero (7)."

The best I can come up with using Google Translate is: -

"TK-cost imposed a fine name FGH (Finnish Game House). It was the first game by turning the GDW's game Twilight 2000, which deals with the post-nuclear war. It also released two additional part of the Finns do. Twilight apparently rokotti resources so much that the adventurer appeared in only one number (7)."

While that makes some sense, it isn't clear enough to really understand
I got the paragraph from here http://web.archive.org/web/200710130...&theme=Printer

The reason I ask is because I am trying to find if Finnish Game House still exists, (they published the Finnish Twilight: 2000 books) because it may be possible to get their permission to translate the important parts of the book. The best information about them I have been able to find is "A small Finnish publisher from 1990's. Has published mostly RPG's, such as Finnish versions of Cyberpunk, Paranoia and Stormbringer, but also some boardgames, like Illuminati." from http://72.233.16.130/boardgamepublis...ish-game-house


Even if they don't exist anymore, I think under fair use you could translate a certain percentage (I think it's approximately 30-40%) without worry as long as the appropriate credit is given and you aren't trying to make money from it.

[headquarters]

the Finnish books have always been especially alluring as they deal with Scandinavia and other aspects that the core books do not .

Any material translated would be great - so good luck to those working on this - all of us appreciate it .

As for the rights - perhaps an agreement could be made.

[John Farson]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

John, I'd like to ask if you could translate the following please: -

"TK-Kustannus otti käyttöön hienomman nimen FGH (Finnish Game House). Se teki ensimmäisen pelinsä kääntämällä GDW:n pelin Twilight 2000, joka käsittelee ydinsodan jälkeistä aikaa. Siihen julkaistiin myös kaksi suomalaisten tekemään lisäosaa . Twilight ilmeisesti rokotti resursseja niin paljon, että Seikkailijaa ilmestyi vain yksi numero (7)."

The best I can come up with using Google Translate is: -

"TK-cost imposed a fine name FGH (Finnish Game House). It was the first game by turning the GDW's game Twilight 2000, which deals with the post-nuclear war. It also released two additional part of the Finns do. Twilight apparently rokotti resources so much that the adventurer appeared in only one number (7)."

While that makes some sense, it isn't clear enough to really understand
I got the paragraph from here http://web.archive.org/web/200710130...&theme=Printer

The reason I ask is because I am trying to find if Finnish Game House still exists, (they published the Finnish Twilight: 2000 books) because it may be possible to get their permission to translate the important parts of the book. The best information about them I have been able to find is "A small Finnish publisher from 1990's. Has published mostly RPG's, such as Finnish versions of Cyberpunk, Paranoia and Stormbringer, but also some boardgames, like Illuminati." from http://72.233.16.130/boardgamepublis...ish-game-house


Even if they don't exist anymore, I think under fair use you could translate a certain percentage (I think it's approximately 30-40%) without worry as long as the appropriate credit is given and you aren't trying to make money from it.

In English it's: "TK-Kustannus renamed itself into the fancier FGH (Finnish Game House). It published its first game by translating GDW's post-nuclear war RPG Twilight 2000. Two Finnish-made additions were also published for it. Apparently, Twilight taxed resources so much that only one issue of Seikkailija (a magazine?) appeared (7)."

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

Well if the Soviets respected Japanese neutrality why would they be using cruise missiles or airstrikes against Japan. And if you take out the space facilities your probably going to have to go after the nuclear programme as well and Japan's nuclear power stations.

I can't recall the exact quote, but canon makes it clear that several neutral nations are targeted by one side or the other during 1997, so neutraility in itself isn't going to protect any nation from nuclear attack. If a country has something worth nuking there is a high likliehood that it will be nuked...

Also, wouldn't the presence of US bases on Japanese soil seriously undermine any claim by the Japanese to be neutral? They are hosting beligerent forces, so I would have thought that makes them fair game for Soviet attack, be that nuclear or conventional.

[John Farson]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I can't recall the exact quote, but canon makes it clear that several neutral nations are targeted by one side or the other during 1997, so neutraility in itself isn't going to protect any nation from nuclear attack. If a country has something worth nuking there is a high likliehood that it will be nuked...

Also, wouldn't the presence of US bases on Japanese soil seriously undermine any claim by the Japanese to be neutral? They are hosting beligerent forces, so I would have thought that makes them fair game for Soviet attack, be that nuclear or conventional.

Correct. Japan can protest its neutrality all it likes, the Soviets (or Russians) will just take one look at all those juicy US bases in Japan and do unto Japan what they do unto Canada (and other non-nuclear US allied countries). Like others more knowledgeable than me have said, Japan will be nuked, and nuked badly. Like headquarters said, the Russians wouldn't even need to use that many nukes to wreck Japan for decades...

[Webstral]

Let's not forget that Japan is largely devoid of industrial resources. A little EMP to put out the nuke plants, and Japan's power grid will be a thing of the past. Tokyo will have to get it for the same reason that DC, London, Ottawa, Paris, Bonn, and Amsterdam got theirs.

Webstral

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Let's not forget that Japan is largely devoid of industrial resources. A little EMP to put out the nuke plants, and Japan's power grid will be a thing of the past. Tokyo will have to get it for the same reason that DC, London, Ottawa, Paris, Bonn, and Amsterdam got theirs.

Webstral

Paris wasn't nuked but that's only a matter of personnal chauvinism.