Storing Food in T2K

[Mohoender]

I got that idea from the thread on Cuisine. We are all concerned about what to eat but what about storing it. With electrical power gone, you can forget about fridge.

Here are some methods I can think of:

- Salting or smoking would be the first one but that is working only for fish and meat.

- For the fruits you can make Jam, plunge them in alcohol or dry them.

- You can use canned food but finding the right container might quickly be a problem.

- For some fruits such as apple, you can store them in specific type of buildings (that's fairly simple) under proper conditions (that's also true for potatoes).

- Another interesting thing (providing that the weather gets colder) would be to build an ice well. A well (15-20 meters deep) that you slowly fill with water during winter. Then, you'll have ice during the warm period.

Of course, you also have to protect your storage from all type of scavangers (small animals, insects, humans...)

Do you have any more ideas or do you know any other method?

[Rupert Willies]

Depending on where you live, the water could still be cold during summer. If you live by a mountain a river coming from it could be cold enough to chill your brew, even during august.
A deep lake can be very cold at the bottom. If you really need to keep something cold, you could lower it to the bottom, and keep it there for long periods of time. It would just take some extra time to retrieve it.

"Hey, surprise guests! Just give me an hour, and I'll get you folks some chilled pate from my lake-storage"

If you have sun, you can also utilize evaporation to cool a container.

[Earthpig]

before refrigeration they cut ice off lakes moved them to Ice sheds storing them buried in sawdust which kept them available most of the year.....I have found ice, in July, under gravel that had been dug out the winter before.

[pmulcahy11b]

Even in the Paleolithic Middle East and East Africa, lots of food was stored and kept fresh by simply digging pits and lining them with clay. (Granted, the climate in the Middle East and Africa was much more mild back then, but in East Africa back then you still had a semidesert.)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rupert Willies

Depending on where you live, the water could still be cold during summer. If you live by a mountain a river coming from it could be cold enough to chill your brew, even during august.

In the winter, it's even easier -- we had a lot of snow days in Kansas, and one week when we had a blizzard and the power was out, we just stored the cold drinks and frozen foods outside the back door against the wall and piled snow on top of it. In no time it was six feet under snow, and it kept quite well until the power came back. It probably could have lasted months had the blizzard gone on.

[Earthpig]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

In the winter, it's even easier -- we had a lot of snow days in Kansas, and one week when we had a blizzard and the power was out, we just stored the cold drinks and frozen foods outside the back door against the wall and piled snow on top of it. In no time it was six feet under snow, and it kept quite well until the power came back. It probably could have lasted months had the blizzard gone on.

Be careful if it get's too cold...I stored some diet coke(probably why it happened) out on the porch...one day, while sitting at home watching TV, I heard some loud popping noises, by the time I figured it out ....my 2 cases of pop were mostly exploded on the door

[Rupert Willies]

Same thing happened to me a month back; two six packs of beer exploded on my veranda. Observed a bottle cap on the roof later.

Originally Posted by Earthpig

Be careful if it get's too cold...I stored some diet coke(probably why it happened) out on the porch...one day, while sitting at home watching TV, I heard some loud popping noises, by the time I figured it out ....my 2 cases of pop were mostly exploded on the door

[Targan]

Here in Australia before there was electricity in all houses there were three methods that were popular for keeping food cool in the absence of a fridge - ice boxes (the ice man would come around with a cart and deliver blocks of ice daily), Coolgardie safes (a primative fridge that used evaporation via water trickling over pieces of cloth) and kerosene-powered friges.

[firewalker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

we had a lot of snow days in Kansas, and one week when we had a blizzard and the power was out, we just stored the cold drinks and frozen foods outside the back door against the wall and piled snow on top of it. \.

we trid that to last big snow/outeg we had worked real good......the dog proved problmatic though.

[jester]

I am shocked shocked and amazed!

You guys haven't mentioned Freeze Drying or Sun Drying. Or regular deydrated methods. I mean they are considered top of the line camping foods today, and one of the oldest methods there is.

Also, JERKING ala Beef Jerky and Pemican

I mean look at what we use today?

Instant potatoes
Rasins
Craisons
Fruit rolls
Dried Fruit
Trail Mix

Those are just a few examples. And one sundried is good for sunny climes, freeze drying for cold climes. And the only thing needed is to prepare the items for drying, and then protect them from insects and vermin so they can dry in the sun and wind.

[TiggerCCW UK]

What would you need to do to prepare food for drying? Its an area I'm completely ignorant of, but it could provide an easyish means of preserving large amounts of food without having to use additional resources, I think. What about smoking meats and fish as well? There's a museum near here that has and old smoke house at it and again I think its a fairly easy way of preserving food.

[jester]

For say fruit and vegetables, simpy cut in small pieces you can remove seeds and large portions that are liquid <like the insides of a tomato> you can also peel them or skin them, then lay flat to dry.

You can also place them on screens so air flows and they dry quicker, or you can make mesh flats or racks from loosely woven flat pieces of wood or sticks or twigs or even leaves. Let air or sundry and flip them over and repeat until they are dry which they should usualy be brittle.

You can make a past of tomato, or fruit puree ansd let it dry into a leather or skin like a fruit roll up, these you can then tear off the desired portion and soak in water for use later. I have freinds who do this with tomato sauce.

Soups and stews this can be done too.

The key things is cutting them into uniform size, air circulation, and protecting them from insects and windblown debris. Its that simple.

As for smoking,

Soak the meat in a brine for a period of time, 24 hours, cut into uniform pieces, thin is good, then hang in a smoke chamber, this can be a cardboard box, or a metal trashcan or an old refrigerator.

Have your smoke going, this can be a candle burning under a pan of woodchips that have been soaked in water, I usualy use a 50/50 mix of half wet half dry, fruit wood and nut woods are the best, never use pine type trees or citrus or eucalytus. And hang your meat about 12 to 16 inches from the base of the small smoldering fire as you want the smoke not the heat to cook and preserve what you want. Racks or hanging from hooks are the best since it gives better coverage of the surface area.

And salting, the meat can be placed in a layer of salt in a box or barrel, covered in salt and then another layer and on and on until done. Of course the item should be hung for a bit to let moisture drain away.

And brining, a salt and water and spice solution, usualy used for pork like salt pork, uniform pieces of pork or the meat of choice <beef is corned beef> and let it soak for several days, or weeks.

The thing with salting is, you will need to presoak and cook out the salt that was used to preserve the meat.

And pickling:

Vinegar, spices and your medium fish, pork, vegetables. Brew up your vinegar and spices like tea, then pour it over the items you want to pickle, seal in a crock or jar and leave alone for 2 weeks or longer so the item gets pickled. And these should remain preserved for several weeks or months once cured.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Thanks for that - lots of good info there.

[Littlearmies]

I've just been reading a book called "Salt: A World History" by Mark Kaplansky which, despite it's rather anorak subject title is fascinating - it has recipes for salting and using salt and making salt. I rather think that salt producing areas would become rather valuable locations for trade and settlement. I'd recommend it to anyone.

You can also pick up lovely tidbits like where the word "salacious" comes from!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Littlearmies

You can also pick up lovely tidbits like where the word "salacious" comes from!

Oh, that's easy! It's from Star Wars Episode 6...

[Slappy]

This can also be a useful reason for trade. Salt can only be mined in limited areas inland and produced on the coast. Salt trading would be one of the major commercial enterprises in T2k. I haven't thought about it that much, but it seems there might be the highest demand in the fall as communities prepare for the winter and 'salt away' food. Why not kill that extra hog in October and salt it for eating later instead of feeding it all winter?

There are some spectacular salt mines southeast of Krakow by the way.

[Littlearmies]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Oh, that's easy! It's from Star Wars Episode 6...

Actually its from the Romans - they said that a guy who was in love (or lust) was "salted up" ("salax" in Latin) and salacious stems from salax. I find stuff like that fascinating so I'm really enjoying the book.

In the UK Cheshire is the centre of salt mining (actually it's often that you drill down and take the brine from the well - it's why salt drilling was the precursor technology for the oil industry, that and the fact that salt domes are an indicator for oil - you then reduce the brine to below 24% salt solution at which time salt crystals begin to precipitate). In the US it used to be Onondaga in upstate NY, Kanawha in the South.

Using evaporation in large tanks is a slower technology but if you have an area with a good climate (south end of San Francisco Bay) it's quite possible. Otherwise you need to build some basic technology, in a coastal area with fuel and transport links.

My view of the Twilight World is that, blessed with the knowledge of how to do things but not the equipment (or energy) to do them on a modern large scale, we would revert to 18th and 19th Century methods of production at least at first.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Theres a pretty big salt mine just outside Belfast as well;

http://www.irishsaltmining.com/home.htm

Although with this being designed to produce rocksalt for de icing work I would imagine you'd need to refine it for use in food.

[kalos72]

A good thread I would like to bump with a question...

How would you actually store it? Cans wont be an option unless you can make new ones. Glass jars? Clay pots?

Considering most idiots would discard things like a good mason jar or a tin can...what would you do?

How about for military forces where mobility is a concern?

[simonmark6]

Large scale storage: Barrels, relatively easy to make and useful for a number of purposes.
Small scale storage/vital stores: Stoneware jars are possible but you could make some tin or steel cans, it wouldn't be impossible using low tech but hygene standards might be a problem.

[kalos72]

Does anyone have any numbers on barrels both storage and production by chance? Maybe some HARN materials that would help?

[simonmark6]

Cooperage is a specialised skill and lots of wooden barrels might be a big ask now I think of it. However, big metal barrels might be achievable.

Rolling fairly large and thin bits of recycled iron or tin would be fairly simple. Electro tinplate this and weld it shut. Then weld the botton shust with a tinplated disk and then fill the can. Weld the top shut and you should have a reasonable product. It's large scale and manpower intensive but should be achievable, the metal is easily available, then you need a way of making a salt solution of the tin and a generator.

Again, this should be achievable with enough people and resources. In smaller societies, reusing cans migt be a possibility.

[GDWFan]

Lots of good ideas have already been mentioned here but Ill try to add a few.

Whole Grains would be very valuable food sources. Raw Wheat, Corn, Soy, Rice. These can be milled crushed and ground into many useful products.
They are stored in bags, buckets, garbage cans, rubbermaid containers, lots of household plastic containers would take on new value.

Nitrogeon sealed grains are the longest lasting that I know of, suck the air out of the container and add inert gas to create an oxygen free container.

Non-Hybrid Seeds would also hold great value to food in general for a settlement. These seeds are popular with the survivalists out there and could possibly be found?

I think you will see alot of coolers being used to store foods, knowledge of brewing beers and wines and distilling of grain alcohols for a drink that can be stored and keeps for long periods. So I would think recycling and reclaimation of old glass beer and soda bottles could be seen.

I also think that rabbit, squirrel and other small rodents would be cooped and breed for food. If chickens could be bred in my opinion Eggs would be one of humanities saviors, as much protien as a cut of meat and they take around a day or two to develop. If eggs could be produced in any large scale they could provide alot of the sorely missed vitamins of a meat based diet. They can be boiled and kept for sometime, the chinese bury them in ash and eat the month aged egg known as 100 year old eggs and you can pickle them for even longer keeping.

In addition to drying, salting, jellying, smoking and dehydrating these could give you a few options

[kato13]

I always imagined plastic 2 liter bottles being repurposed for food storage. They are plentiful, airtight and bug resistant.

Hmmmm I may have to see if you can boil their contents (for sterilization) without destroying them. If not they can be used for honey, grain, salt, etc.

[jester]

Originally Posted by kato13

I always imagined plastic 2 liter bottles being repurposed for food storage. They are plentiful, airtight and bug resistant.

Hmmmm I may have to see if you can boil their contents (for sterilization) without destroying them. If not they can be used for honey, grain, salt, etc.

You can use hot water and bleach to sterilize plastic bottles.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Slappy

This can also be a useful reason for trade. Salt can only be mined in limited areas inland and produced on the coast. Salt trading would be one of the major commercial enterprises in T2k.
<SNIP>
There are some spectacular salt mines southeast of Krakow by the way.

There are several major salt mines in the US, one in Hutchinson KS and another _under_ Lake Erie accessed through a portal in Cleveland OH.Many have already followed the Twilight canon from Poland's salt mines in that sections of them are reserved for storage or even manufacturing. IIRC the Hutchinson Mine had machine tools and industrial equipment stored there as a hedge against nuclear war. Now where have we heard something like that before?

[Raellus]

There's an amazing salt mine near Krakow (I can't remember if it's detailed in the FCoK module) that's on UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites.

http://www.wieliczka-saltmine.com/

I passed up an opportunity to go there in order to spend more time in Krakow itself. I can't decide if I regret that decision or not.

Salt's going to be extremely important in the T2KU because of its usefulness in preserving food. I can see it becoming like a form of currency. It has been used as such in the past.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by kato13

I always imagined plastic 2 liter bottles being repurposed for food storage. They are plentiful, airtight and bug resistant.

Hmmmm I may have to see if you can boil their contents (for sterilization) without destroying them. If not they can be used for honey, grain, salt, etc.

Those old 2 liter plastic soda bottles would have more use as ad hoc water purifiers, wash thoroughly, filter as much matter out of the water as possible, Camp and place the bottle on a rock/concrete surface in direct sunlight. Over the course of 4-6 hours the water temperature can reach near boiling, killing any germs and leaving the upper two thirds of the water, relatively pure. Works really well in the summer.

[Slappy]

Confit is a simple process perfected by the Basques that will allow meat to last for months in a cool place with far less salt needed than traditional curing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confit

It is also delicious, probably a rarity in post 2K cuisine.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Those old 2 liter plastic soda bottles would have more use as ad hoc water purifiers, wash thoroughly, filter as much matter out of the water as possible, Camp and place the bottle on a rock/concrete surface in direct sunlight. Over the course of 4-6 hours the water temperature can reach near boiling, killing any germs and leaving the upper two thirds of the water, relatively pure. Works really well in the summer.

The best bottles to use if you have to "boil" using a plastic bottle are Gatorade G2 bottles. They are tough enough to use as regular water bottles and won't melt even if you hang them only 6" above your fire. They are some of the thickest plastic bottles made today.

The fastest method of purification without boiling would be to use either Tincture of Iodine or ordinary household Bleach. The Iodine will not kill everything and won't remove Radiological or Chemical (both Industrial and Chemical Weapon residue) contamination. Chlorine will kill almost all pathogens but not Radiological or Chemical contamination as well. Chlorine is definitely the better of the two purifiers. Ironically, BOTH chemicals use a ratio of 2 drops per quart of water. They both require 30 minutes to purify the water as well.
To Purify This Much Water................... This Many Drops of Purifier:
1 Quart of Water.................................... 2 Drops of Purifier
1 Gallon of Water .................................. 8 Drops or 1/8 Teaspoon
5 Gallons of Water ................................. 32 Drops or 1/2 Teaspoon
10 Gallons of Water ................................ 64 Drops or 1 Teaspoon
55 Gallons of Water ................................ 352 Drops or 5 & 1/2 Teaspoons

THESE DROPS MUST BE METERED PRECISELY! Both agents are poisonous to humans in too large a dosage. The water should also be filtered through a cloth to remove particulates as these will slow down the chemical reaction. You can have 4 parts per million of Chlorine. Iodine's safe levels vary from person to person (many people are allergic to Iodine).