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#1
07-27-2012, 03:26 PM
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Olefin's Twilight 2000 Universe thread
Will be putting some things here as to how things differ from canon in my Twilight 2000 Universe as compared to canon. Remember this is strictly my opinion and also campaign experience and used for my campaign only and is presented here only for discussion and to represent one way the game could play out.
Have said before several times why I dont use Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped in my campaign because of why I dont feel the drought it presents is realistic - especially as both of them seem to show survivors of the 1997-98 events in the US not having much in the way of food in early 2001, even though they would have had to be planting and harvesting for several years already just to be alive to that point (canned food and harvest from 1997 time frame would have been gone by 1999 at the very latest so either a lot of agriculture is already going on or they would be dead before both modules even started) and unless you are a really bad farmer you should be able to stockpile some food - no farmer worth his salt has nothing left in reserve However the other reason I dont do it is because the US military basically falls apart due to desertion and apathy in those modules, with only about 2000 or so men from the 43000 who returned to the States being used as reinforcements and the rest just "going over the fence" some night or being released from military service. I dont see this as realistic for several reasons (oh by the way I talked to several active duty and retired military personnel, both enlisted and officer on this issue and this represents their inputs) 1) The US is still in a state of war with the Soviet Union and its allies and Mexico. That means that if you are in the military its for the duration. You would only be released if you were physically unable to do duty that could help the military. 2) The US itself is under military law, either CivGov or MilGov in nature. Again if you are in the military in that situation you are in it for the duration. If you desert you get shot - period. if you try to desert you get shot - period. 3) The United States is under occupation in southern CA, AZ, NM and south and central Texas by foreign invaders as well as in Anchorage AK. The US military, whether under CivGov or MilGov, wouldnt be releasing soldiers until those invaders were driven off - period. Anyone who ordered US troops released while enemy forces were on US soil and thus weakened the ability of the US to drive them out would be seen as a traitor and again you get shot - period 4) The United States, if you play New America or if you only have marauders in place, has many places either in a state of anarchy or outright rebellion against the central government, whether it be MilGov or CivGov in nature. Such a rebellion and anarchy would need to be put down - so again failure to send in military forces to put this down is treason in time of war and.... you get shot - period 5) While many units disintegrated during Going Home many others came home intact. Those units, with intact command structures and unit cohesion, would be sent out to either fight the Mexicans or the Soviets or New America. they include 3rd US AD – 5000 men - pre- war regular division 28th ID – 1000 men - National Guard 4th US MD – 1000 men- pre- war regular division 1st US AD – 4000 men - pre-war regular division 3rd US MD – 5000 men - pre-war regular division 6th US ID – 2000 men - pre-war regular division 38th US ID – 4000 men - National Guard 278th US ACR – 400 men - pre-war regular ACR thats 22,400 men in organized units with their officer, NCO and unit cohesion intact - seven divisions and one ACR and two intact Army HQ orgs to command them (of which only two are Guard units) even if you say the Guard units would desert that still leaves 17,400 men in regular units Thats the kind of force that takes back Texas from the Mexicans and drives them out of Los Angeles and San Diego and makes short work of the New Americans in the Ozarks. 6) This isnt Vietnam and these men arent draftees. Most of them would be regular volunteer military who would be very patriotic and very much for defending their nation no matter what. Those men would never abandon their units and their country and let foreign troops remain in control of US soil while they still lived. And there is no way that 22,000 men all die in "shipping accidents" or are "too wounded to be able to serve" And thats just the intact units - I didnt include the ones that broke up into mobs because those units are the ones that wouldnt be ready to be put into the fight as soon as they got home. But the others would. 7) The US is still engaged in a hot war with the Soviets in the Middle East, one that they just sent 6000 men to. So more men could be sent there too - and again deserting a unit being sent overseas is desertion in time of war and ... you get shot 8) CivGov still has an intact army in Europe - one that needs reinforcements. So any men who defect to CivGov could be sent to Europe. Oh you dont want to go? See above. Now remember this is in my universe only and is not in any way an attempt to challenge the overall canon of Twilight 2000. However it is based on what the US military became by 1996 in reality which apparently is not what the authors based their US military on - which appears more to resemble a draftee army in how it is handled, at least in my opinion. Note I said in my opinion only. Not all modules or sourcebooks are used after all by all GM's or referees and everyone's campaign universe is free to diverge as they see fit (as ours did by our own actions which made several modules moot by what we did during it) And I didnt say they stay together forever - frankly once the last Mexican soldier is back across the Rio Grande I can see them saying ok now can we go home? But not before. Oh and for the record - I dont apply these remarks to the light divisions that basically did get drafted in 1997 and 1998. They would have small cadres of professional soldiers and draftees and reservists to round them out. Those units could have large scale desertions as could the National Guard units as well in some cases (but remember these weekend warriors are now experienced combat vets). But not the regular military units. Again my two cents on how my campaign universe differs from canon. Last edited by Olefin; 07-28-2012 at 01:26 PM. 
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#2
07-27-2012, 04:35 PM
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And again let me say for the record that this is only about my campaign and how I have both played it and ran it and how I would be writing for anything I would put up here as to a sourcebook or module for people to use as they please or ignore if they are not pleased.
but in no way am I implying that this is any more right or wrong than the canon itself or any one's particular campaign or interpretation of the canon and I am in no way, shape or form trying to pick any kind of argument - just presenting how things are different in my T2000U versus others for information only and hopefully good informed debate and discussion as is the heart of any good forum
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#3
07-28-2012, 08:53 AM
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Logical points, I actually agree with many of the points.
My major divergence is that you are assuming the Army is regular (nice distinction on the later units), I instituted the draft early in the war (with a VERY abbreviated training regime). This radically changes the character of the Army. A few other observations for discussion: * what percentage of the returning bodies are actually non-combatants, probably not that high but that will reduce the figures a little? * is there enough of a logistics base to support the new units? In your version probably there is. In mine probably not. * could troops returning home be thinking, "that's it now, I've done my share." From memory the Texas module implies they don't know what is going on there. Finding that out when they get back might make a difference but I guess that combat weariness and the thought of being the last US soldier to die might not do much for morale...
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#4
07-28-2012, 12:58 PM
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Good thread. None of the campaigns that I GM'ed or played in years ago lasted very long in the USA. We always started with Kalisz and usually went a different direction from there. I think only twice we went to Krakow. My longest run campaign had the PCs make it back to the USA by recovered/repaired AN-12 that crashed over northern Virginia. That group went to Armies of the Night and we didn't do much with it after that. Although I read through Going Home, I never GM'ed or played in it. Most of the time our groups ended up staying in Europe. IIRC,
However, I did notice that, IMO, the quality of the research and writing of the modules went down a bit after Armies of the Night. Things like the OP says about releasing/discharging members of the military and some technical issues.
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#6
07-28-2012, 02:14 PM
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Yea, it would be a very long story. Summary, awesome scrounge rolls, 3 months repair/modification time, lots of battles. In the end a true heroic effort with an emergency parachute drop at the end. They did end up with a lot more equipment than your usual group, which was the justification for them being sent to NYC...
 Don't mean to threadjack you though... Like I said before, most of the TW2K stuff was really good but once the published stuff got a campaign back to the USA, IMO, the research that was done and the technical aspects steadily got worse. Maps weren't as well done and a few other things.
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#7
07-28-2012, 10:13 PM
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I agree with you on many of the US modules - Allegheny Uprising left a lot to be desired- I work in York and travel to Fayette County- and that module didnt do justice at all to the area.
And frankly some of the other details - like the total destruction of the US Navy supposedly between Satellite Down (nothing left on the Pacific Coast) and Last Submarine (only one USN sub left?) just showed a lack of understanding of the Russians capabilities versus the USN. Hurt badly - sure. Basically totally destroyed - sorry but that was one point where the game went off the tracks. Especially considering no Russian sub has ever tracked an Ohio at all - yet supposedly they are all gone, along with the Permits, Sturgeons and every Los Angeles but one? Just not going to happen. The initial European modules were very good and really set a great tone for the game. But somewhere things went downhill - you can see in some of the later modules that they may not have had the time to really research them right and put the details into them and properly proof read them. And frankly the whole idea of New America was offensive to me and the people I played with. I have read and heard about a lot of stuff from various militia organizations but nothing as warped as New America. Could there be a way out militia group that could have believed that in one isolated area? Sure. But a mass of people all over the US - no that is just not possible. Not unless suddenly you have a huge outbreak of mental illness to make that many people believe that warped an idea as it was portrayed. So breakaways from the US and areas in rebellion against the central government - sure. Heck I would totally expect that - but New America? No that I dont. So how does that carry over to my universe? New America doesnt exist as a nationwide organization. What sprang up in the Ozarks and in Florida in my universe are seperate groups, with seperate agendas, but both in opposition to both MilGov and CivGov, with the Ozarks group being flavored with ties to white supremacy and the Klan and the Florida group being tied more to criminal families who joined together with militia groups to seize power.
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#8
07-28-2012, 11:00 PM
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Yea, if I had GM'ed more of a USA campaign it would have been closer to what you discuss instead of TW2k V 1.0 Canon.
IMO, Satellite Down and the V2.0 rule book was proof enough that they didn't do hardly any research on the USN. Honestly, I couldn't believe the v2.0 USN Naval Enlisted Ranks...
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#9
07-29-2012, 07:29 PM
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I completely agree - the last battle of the Virginia made no sense at all in terms of how it supposedly happened. You can see a real lack of naval operational knowledge throughout the books - the task force in the RDF is lacking a lot of ships.
For one two full marine divisions there and no operational LST's? Then how the heck did they do the landing in the summer of 2000? There are a lot of ships that obviously have to be there but no mention of them - otherwise the Marines wouldnt have been able to make an opposed landing with the one ship they mention. But since Frank Frey forgot to detail both the Tudeh and the French Fleet that is there (he did correct the Tudeh in Kings Ransom at least) I just choose to add the proper number of ships there to support the reduced Marine divisions that are left for an opposed landing.
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#10
07-31-2012, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
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#11
07-31-2012, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
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#12
07-31-2012, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
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#13
08-01-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
As to support, in the conditions in HW (I know that is contentious), how many people will just be concerned with surviving and worry about the morality later? I like the idea of having a NA cell act sensibly and play down the ethnic part. How would the group react to a town where NA is in power but is the only reasonably civilized force in the area? Careful use of NA can give the group some tough moral choices.
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#14
08-01-2012, 07:03 AM
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Also while many things in TW2000 are far fetched, let's consider the following from RL history:
* 1940 the Royal Navy issue and USE cutlasses in a boarding action in Norway. * Syria sides with the US in 1990 over Kuwait and provides troops * Israel supplied arms to Iran to use against Iraq * Germany copies the Sten Gun in WW2 down to the British proof marks even though they have thousands of genuine versions and a production line of their own improved version * The Crusaders reach the Holy Land and their first action is to attack their one Arab ally * After World War Two the Soviets allow Austria to have democratic elections * In 1982, the British sail half way around the world to take back a series of islands from Argentina * After WW2 America cuts back it's army so badly that it does not have enough tanks to fight in Korea without pulling mothballed ones from storage * The Soviets disguise their missiles on Cuba with a different type of tree than that grown on the island * The Soviets shoot down KAL-007 * Matthias Rust flies a light aircraft to Red Square * The Berlin Wall comes down without a war If I wrote many of these into my alternative history I would be laughed at...
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#15
08-01-2012, 05:45 PM
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The main problem that I have with NA is that it was supposedly a totally secret society that was totally unknown by the Federal Government.
The only other alternative is that it was a known cult, like Scientology or one of the other survivalist cults/groups known to have been popular in the '80s...
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#16
08-01-2012, 06:30 PM
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I could recast New America as a Florida-only force, with elements throughout the southeast, but nothing like the nation-spanning insurgent "government" that springs up in T2k.
I would rather say that NA is, as I mentioned, loose in FL but the rest of the groups are just as disorganized as anything else is in the states - white separatists through the west-northwest (Montana, Idaho), Amerind supremacists in the Dakotas and possibly Kansas, gangs in NYC and the ruins of LA, with small pockets of all of those types throughout the nation. I'm not sure how badly damaged Clearwater is/was after the MacDill AFB groundburst but I could see ol' Dave Miscavige stuck in the Ft. Harrison Hotel, blaring out proclamations to the city over a PA system, the "church" capturing survivors, "auditing" them and immediately forcing them on the "RPF" to rebuild the Scientology compound and scavenge fuel for the generators, and eventually scrape enough together to gas up the Apollo so he and the rest of the SeaOrg can try to make it to South America or around the horn to the west coast to the survival bunkers they've dug all over Hemet, CA.
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#17
08-01-2012, 06:36 PM
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On the almost total destruction of the USN, I will say this: thanks to the Walker's treachery, the Soviets knew dangerous amounts of stuff about our Navy. Had there been a non-Nuclear (well, not immediately nuclear) shooting war we'd have been in for some horrible surprises vis-a-vis their defenses versus our technology. It isn't that they were technologically superior: they weren't. It's just that they knew so much about ours thanks to those pigs that they could have really crippled us out of the gate. That's one thing that I think needs to be taken into consideration.
We just didn't know until the KGB threw open their archives how badly we'd been compromised.
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#18
08-13-2012, 09:25 AM
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Couple thoughts on the game setting and how it interacts with the real world.
1) Twilight 2000 is predicated on the idea that the Soviets/Warsaw Pact were every bit as bad a threat as we believed they were in the depths of the Reagan-era Cold War. So on issues like whether or not the real world Soviet Navy ever tracked an Ohio class boomer -- irrelevant. Apparently in the T2K universe they could, just like USN intelligence and planners were terrified that they could if the balloon went up. 2) Same sort of thing with New America -- ultra-Right Wing politics and nuke war survivalism were both on the map, in terms of public perception, in the 1980s. "New America" is just GDW repackaging William Pierce (aka author of the Turner Diaries) and his National Alliance political party, with a lot more money and success appealing to people than it enjoyed in real life. Plausible? In a universe where Mexico can pull of the logistics of power projection outside its own borders and the Soviets can somehow drive armor/mech units from Nome to Fairbanks in Alaska -- we're way through the looking glass. Of course, for campaign play, it's all down to what appeals/makes sense to the gaming group. The GDW Drought is another one of them -- honestly it works for me on the (pseudo) scientific side of things that popping a bunch of nukes could result in unexpected climate outcomes. On the other hand, I think it dramatically has some problems -- basically I think it has some unsatisfying storytelling elements to follow the narrative arc from being dumped in the middle of Europe post-WWIII nuke, struggling all the way back to the US of A, only to find out that things aren't just bad, but they're about to get annihilated to a whole new degree.
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#19
08-17-2012, 01:45 PM
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My thoughts on what happened to the troops who came home from Omega in my campaign universe - which by the way is where any sourcebooks (like East Africa) or others things I do submit here will be set
Hope you enjoy US Army Reorganization after Omega in Olefin’s Twilight 2000 Universe MilGov began segregation of the units that reported for Omega in Bremerhaven and elsewhere in Europe (Great Britain, Norway, etc.) where the units reported. In addition to Army units there were Air Force, USN and USMC personnel involved in the evacuation as well. Upon arrival in Norfolk the units that had maintained their unit cohesion were reassembled and readied for deployment in the US. Non-US citizens who had joined these units were offered US citizenship if they stayed with the units and almost all of the men and women took the offer. In addition to these troops several formations had arrived as mobs of men, with almost no unit cohesion. These personnel were offered a chance to join CENTCOM prior to embarking and some 5000 Army personnel plus another 500 US Air Force and USN personnel and 500 USMC personnel volunteered for duty with CENTCOM. One unit, the 2nd Brigade of the 2nd Armored volunteered as a unit for duty in Kenya. The remaining US Army units that had arrived with no unit cohesion were disbanded and their personnel made available for reinforcement of the units that remained. These units that were disbanded included the 44th Armored Division, the 1st, 35th and 36th Mechanized Divisions, the 2nd ACR, and the 1st Cavalry Division. Upon arrival at Norfolk all soldiers and officers were informed that the US was still in a state of war with foreign soldiers still on US soil and that until the state of war was lifted they were in it for the duration and that desertion during time of war was a capital crime. While some men were allowed to leave the military due to wounds or disability, they represented only a small fraction of those that returned. The following forces were stood to on December 1, 2000 at Norfolk ready for re-assignment in the US: 7th Army HQ 1st Corps HQ • 3rd Mechanized Division – 5000 men • 6th Infantry Division – 2000 men • 38th Infantry Division – 3500 men • 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment – 400 men V Corps HQ • 3rd Armored Division – 5000 men • 28th Infantry Division – 1000 men • 4th Mechanized Division – 1000 men Unattached units • 1st Armored Division – 4000 men • 43rd Infantry Division – 1000 men • 5th Mechanized Division – 400 men (grouping of all known survivors that made it back to Bremerhaven in time) Reinforcement Pool: • 9000 personnel of the disbanded units Equipment The units were reissued their personal weapons that they had turned in at Bremerhaven. In addition they were issued 50 caliber MG, mortars, light anti-aircraft missiles and artillery pieces that had been installed on the ships as defensive weapons in order to avoid turning them in to the Germans as well as anti-tank missiles, mortars and other equipment that was at Norfolk. MilGov had also managed to obtain some transport and light vehicles as well, mostly Hummers and various armored cars, to equip the units as well as a small amount of LAV-25 and M113 vehicles. The only armor available was culled from a variety of sources including reconditioned museum pieces, repaired vehicles from a shipment of recovered vehicles that had arrived in early 1999 and never gone further south after that as well as a small shipment of armor that arrived in the late summer of 1999 that sat in the Norfolk area due to a lack of shipping and a need to use them for local area defense. In addition a few armored vehicles had been loaded onto one ship at Bremerhaven that arrived there in the late summer of 2000 with a final shipment of ammunition and spare parts from MilGov and had fuel for a return trip already. The following were available to be issued: • 4 M1Abrams • 3 M1A1 Abrams • 3 M1A2 Abrams • 4 M60A4 • 12 M551 Sheridan • 18 M48A5 Patton • 6 LAV-75 • 4 Stingray • 4 M47 Chaffee A total of 58 tanks as well as 7 SPG and 6 Bradleys were available in total. Plan – to use the evacuated 7th Army to attack into Texas and restore the US position there and drive the Mexicans and Soviets out of the country in concert with MilGov forces already there and resistance forces as well as destroy the Texian Legion. If successful, to then restore the areas in Arizona and New Mexico to US control and finally California.
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#20
08-17-2012, 02:37 PM
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I don't think MilGov circa 2000 has the logistical capabilities to redeploy everyone coming off the Going Home convoy to Mexico, nor to effectively re-equip them as a fighting force except on the most minimal levels.
It is, however, pretty silly to think MilGov's leadership is going to be in favor of just discharging all those personnel in another "good luck, you're on your own" moment. All I can see that really accomplishing would be to destroy any remaining semblance of order in the Virginia area as some portion of that force have to turn to banditry and marauding to keep themselves fed. Of the guys who come back, some portion will want to do nothing but return to their homes and see if anyone is still alive. A lot of these guys, after surviving years of war in Europe, aren't going to be slowed down by MilGov trying to enforce a death penalty for desertion. And MilGov isn't going to be terribly well equipped to carry out those threats if a deserter(s) can get more than a few klicks outside the wire. The more effective reason guys will stay with the colors and not just take off is that, after seeing that the US isn't any better off than Europe, they'll realize that getting home may simply not be plausible (or survivable). That may or may not translate into any enthusiasm for continued soldiering and active campaigning. My take on the influx of personnel into Norfolk is that MilGov first sifts the returnees for useful skills relating to reconstruction and sustainment efforts. These guys get pulled as wartime essential by the government, but also get some perks to keep them from potentially taking their valuable skills elsewhere. Most of the remainder get converted into a modern day equivalent of the Roman limitanei, and get some version of 40 acres, a mule, and an M16EZ with a requirement to do part time military service and part time reconstruction duties. These guys are organized into company and battalion sized elements and seeded in the Virginia and North Carolina region to provide some backbone to the local militia. Operating forward of the limitanei screen (and inside it as needed), MilGov re-establishes the 6th Special Forces Group as a counter-insurgency and foreign internal defense force. ODAs augmented with mechanics, experienced farmers and ag-science guys, veterinarians, and other not-your-normal-military-types work on drawing more outlying communities into the MilGov network by helping them with subsistence and recovery on the one hand and bandit suppression/stability operations on the other. When a given community is settled down enough, limitanei units are moved in and the SF/CA guys leapfrog forward. The main limitation on how effective the SF teams can be is that they have very, very limited air support for either logistics or CAS. Consequently, teams that get too far out on the edge are pretty much on their own. To help address this on a semi-local level, 6th SFG maintains several mike force companies for QRF if an ODA camp gets in over its head. If a threat is bigger than the limitanei or SF mike force units can deal with, MilGov does recruits for volunteers coming out of Europe to form a couple conventional infantry brigades (as well as volunteers for 6th SFG). These two brigades are not the usual T2K "brigade = 500 guys and a tank" but actual attempts to rebuild actual brigade combat teams to a (modified) prewar table of organization and equipment. There are limitations and modifications -- tube artillery is pretty scarce, so fire support is all mortars (surviving tube artillery being in a separate unit under direct control of the commander of the Norfolk enclave), the units are motorized for mobility, but a lot of that motorization are civilian vehicles that picked up a coat of green paint along the way, that sort of thing. The overall objective is to get the area the Norfolk enclave can effectively control back online with agriculture and light industry to provide a food surplus and manufacturing base. Once they're able to do that, they start expanding -- direction of travel being either towards other MilGov enclaves or resources that are still intact or can be put back on line with the resources available. Situation permitting, other MilGov enclaves are doing the same oil spot trick and spreading out towards Norfolk and other enclaves as well, though the manpower available to Norfolk makes it the centerpiece of the plan.
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#21
08-17-2012, 03:35 PM
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I see them as bringing them back for a military reason. They could have left them in Europe and have them continue to fight with the Soviets.
However the problem is that MilGov has Mexican and Soviet forces in control of a lot of the American Southwest. The forces they have there can hold them but cant take anything back. And there isnt anything left in the US to reinforce them. So where can they get troops? Not from CENTCOM - whats there is needed there to keep what little oil they are getting from overseas going. And not from Kenya - the small forces there are needed to keep the refinery going that is essential for CENTCOM. And Korea is a long way off plus there isnt that much there. But Europe has a lot of trained troops - in fact most of what is left of the pre-war Army is there. And really they dont need the tanks that they brought to Europe. Mexico doesnt have much in the way of AFV's left and the Soviets are out of fuel. So even if all they bring home is the men and some limited weapons its enough to be able to get the advantage they need to retake Texas and the Southwest. As for logistics - you arent talkign about moving a huge army of tanks, APC's, etc.. - you are talking about moving 23,000 men at most and a very small assortment of vehicles - which can be done with a few coal fired ships or a few coal fired trains. And they would want to move them out of VA anyway - thats a lot of new mouths to feed in one area. But spread over northern Texas and Louisiana and Oklahoma - not as much. it would be one thing if they had to move all the stuff of a modern army - but in reality what they are moving is mostly men - and a lot of the movement will be by shoe leather or horse drawn cart. As opposed to those who wrote the game I dont see the US military as being dumb or foolish - you dont give up hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles for no good reason when you have no way to replace them for years if not decades. Let alone all the planes, helos, artillery pieces, etc.. they abandoned. They brought them home to use them as soldiers to fight the war at home and win it. And that is how in my universe they were used.
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#22
08-17-2012, 05:40 PM
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To be fair, MilGov has a pages long list of problems, only one of which is Mexicans and a token Soviet force in Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona. Whether the Mexicans and Soviets in the SW USA are the top of the list is debatable -- also whether it's one they can effectively influence with the tools available to them.
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#23
08-17-2012, 05:58 PM
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if MilGov represents the US govt and they are supposed to defend against all enemies foreign or domestic then getting the Mexicans and Soviets out is definitely number one on their list (or at least shared with taking out New America)
and face it - without the oil from Texas they are screwed and they know it long term And remember I dont recognize the uber drought from Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped - as far as I am concerned those modules dont exist except for the historical data up to Omega as that is what my GM came up with to try to keep the game going after he and the players generally were disgusted by the way Kidnapped and HW in his words "hijacked our Saturday afternoons and took them to Mad Max's Australia instead of to WWIII" so the events of 2001 in HW and Kidnapped arent used by me in my GM universe - which from many of the posts I have read here is a relatively common occurence among a significant minority of the players and GM's here and as a GM that is my right within the game to do that - remember this my thread about my particular campaign only - not about the canon- i.e. this is how my game as played by my GM diverged from canon and how I am taking up that mantle of what he did from here in the canon the Mexicans held onto Texas for a hundred years and still have CA - but not in my GM universe - as you will see - but again that is only in Olefin's universe - however I think I am making a pretty valid point that MilGov wouldnt have wasted the organized divisions that reported to Bremerhaven by just letting them mill around in Norfolk till they starved or deserted and love the discussion Horse Soldier - you make some very good points and I look forward to more
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#24
08-21-2012, 02:45 PM
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Olefin universe timeline thread
Late November 2000 A commando force of 24 men from the 5th Mech, consisting of the same men who obtained RESET for the US along with three Navy Seals, is embarked on the SSN Corpus Christi to find General Cumming’s granddaughter in Grenada. The team, along with a small group of US soldiers on board a replica of the USS Constitution which arrived independently in the area around the same time, lands on Grenada and after a few days manages to make an alliance of convenience with a force of Cubans that landed there after the Christi sank their transport. With them they manage to assault the pirate force on Carriacou and save most of the enslaved population there as well as the girl they came to save while capturing enough transport for the Cubans to go back home. They then come home with the girl and a very large amount of ammunition and weaponry captured from the pirates and from the hold of the half sunken Bulgarian freighter, enough that most of it is brought back to Norfolk by the Constitution. The new government of Grenada signs a friendship agreement with MilGov with the departure of the Cubans for home. The team returns on December 9, 2000 with 500 AK-74 and M16 rifles, over 300,000 rounds of 5.54mm ammo, 7500 M16 loaded magazines, 40 PPK machine guns with 80,000 rounds, 40 RPG-16 grenade launchers, 200 rocket grenades, 6000 rounds of 9mm ammo, 35 M203 grenade launchers, 750 HE grenades, 4 81mm mortars, 200 81mm rounds, 15 M60 machine guns, 60 belts of M60 ammo, two 106mm recoilless rifles and 24 practice rounds recovered from the pirates and the Bulgarian ship, a priceless treasure trove for MilGov. Besides the Constitution, three captured pirate schooners that the pirates were forcing the Grenadians to build also arrive back at Norfolk under the command of detachments of sailors from the Constitution, crewed by Grenadians who want to show their appreciation for their liberation. These four ships significantly increase the amount of sail transports available to the USN. (Corpus Christi has no weapons on board and a non-functioning fire control system) Dec 11, 2000 A DIA agent report is received at Norfolk detailing reports from the Brownsville area of a working refinery and oil platform that is about go online that potentially could produce as much as half a million gallons of refined petroleum products. MilGov immediately puts together the same team that went to Grenada, along with three Texan Omega evacuees, on the Corpus Christi and sends them to investigate. The 4th US Mechanized Division begins boarding two coal powered freighters at Norfolk while a coal powered car ferry is loaded with 4 M60A4's and 4 Bradleys and readied to sail for Texas. Dec 14, 2000 The 4th MD sails for Texas escorted by a single Coast Guard vessel. Dec 16, 2000 The 1st Army is reinforced with the 43rd Infantry Division (still in the Norfolk area) and some 800 replacements and one M60A4 tank being assigned to the 78th Light Infantry Division (transported to Fort Dix by sea). Last edited by Olefin; 09-07-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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#25
08-22-2012, 04:05 PM
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a curious question.
Olefin:
You mentioned elsewhere that you were in close proximity to, if not actually working with the M88A2 Hercules ARV--that would be in Spring Grove, right? IIRC, United Defense -York was also dealing with the M109 SPH upgrades about that time. Following the TDM, what do you think of the probability of some UD employees and their families grabbing an M109, a couple of M88A2s and a couple of M992 Ammo Carriers (designed for use with the M109 and produced at UD-York IIRC), loading them up with whatever they could scrounge, and hauling ass westward? What with the confusion and heavy drain on manpower, would security be degraded enough at that point? I was thinking that the South Mountain Restoration Center would be a possible place to hold up--limited access by road, secluded on a hilltop in the midst of low mountains, surrounded by an insular population, and having a fairly extensive self-sufficient structure. However, I don't know what you'd do with all of the mentally-ill patients there. 
__________________
"Let's roll." Todd Beamer, aboard United Flight 93 over western Pennsylvania, September 11, 2001.
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#26
08-27-2012, 01:44 PM
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its a real possibility - in my timeline the military leaves a small guard force there to keep guard on the equipment there along with some of the employees and their families (we have a lot of ex-military here) who raise food within the security perimeter of the factory and keep an eye on it. They have a few vehicles that they use to keep the place secure and eventually MilGov, after Omega, puts the factory back into use as a depot to repair equipment and finish the assembly and reconditioning of as best as they can.
Considering the timing they were also switching work on Bradley's (both Reman and Reset) to that plant and would have been producing the M8 Armored Gun System (i.e. the Buford). So you could add a Reset Bradley and a Buford as well to your mix - they wouldnt have had ammo for them (we dont keep ammo here) or 50 cal MG but otherwise they would be fully operational. So if your guys can find ammo they can use them for sure.
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#27
08-28-2012, 03:48 PM
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Running for the hills in AFVs isn't really ideal -- comparatively major fuel consumption and specialized maintenance requirements to start with, to say nothing of the likelihood of any military or law enforcement contact likely to become confrontational. A running five ton full of supplies is going to be more of a score, in terms of military vehicles, for refugees than an AFV until you start getting into situations where organized opposition requires serious firepower to get any maneuver room.
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#28
08-28-2012, 04:05 PM
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All depends on how far you have to run with the AFV and what you may be defending with it. If its the last working oil or water well in the area you may have a lot of people who want what you want - and an AFV, even one that is basically stationary, is a heck of a deterrent if all they have is shotguns and civilian rifles.
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#29
09-21-2012, 02:05 PM
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(This area of the timeline is how my GM and fellow players went thru Red Star, Lone Star and then back to Norfolk. Remember the Christi as my GM played it was still in USN hands as mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main. As you can see things began to change from canon with how he had the US Army reorganzie after Omega. The MilGov attack on the 228th was before he got his hands on any of the modules that had this unit in it and thus changed them significantly)
Dec 21, 2000 MilGov puts into effect a plan to evict CivGov from their enclave in the Fort Meade area. The soldiers of the 228th Infantry Brigade and the CivGov administrators at Fort Meade found themselves surrounded by the 3rd Mechanized and the 38th Infantry Division. The Brigade is ordered to stand down and surrender or face annihilation. Only one battalion resists and takes over 150 casualties from artillery and tank fire before it surrenders. While its senior officers and NCO’s were arrested, the more junior ones and the troops were given a choice between prison and swearing loyalty to MilGov. Not surprisingly with very few exceptions they took the loyalty oath. The senior officers were tried and convicted of failing to heed a direct order to bring their brigade under MilGov control and subsequently executed on January 5, 2001. The brigade’s personnel were put into the general reinforcement pool and its units disbanded, with its weapons and equipment issued to loyal MilGov units. The CivGov government officials at Fort Meade were arrested and sent to work camps in the Norfolk area. Interrogations of these officials revealed information about possible cache’s of supplies in western PA. With this action MilGov control expanded into Maryland. Late Dec 2000 – early January 2001 The strike team arrives in the Corpus Christi area and meets up with the DIA agent. After debriefing the team stakes out the marauder base at Corpus Christi including getting two men inside by having them taken prisoner. A revolt among the prisoners is staged coinciding with an attack by the team which successfully overcomes the marauders leading to the capture of weapons and several functional vehicles including two M113APC’s, six jeeps, two HMMWV squad carriers and two trucks as well as the head of the marauders, Grady LaMarr. Under interrogation he reveals the operation going on at Brownsville and at Gulf Forty. The team splits with the DIA agent and a small group going back to the Christi to get news of this to MilGov while the rest heads south using the captured transport going by way of Padre Island, joined by some 35 freed prisoners who agree to assist the team. Overcoming resistance along the way the team arrives at Port Isabel and takes it from its marauder defenders, with the captured APC’s being a key reason for the victory. The team digs in and prepares to defend the area from marauders, turning back two probes and then a larger one from both land and sea that almost succeeds, with most of the freed prisoners who joined the force dying in the assault. On the evening of the 2nd day they are reinforced by a force of 30 men from the 4th who tell them they have seized Gulf Forty and the rest of the division is arriving in 36 hours. Another enemy assault, this time with APC’s and trucks, is broken up using explosives, RPG’s and Molotov cocktails to knock out the vehicles as the team uses hard learned urban fighting skills from Europe against the mostly Novice attackers. After hearing panicked reports from captured radios of Soviet forces attacking Brownsville the force in Port Isabel prepares an ambush for any Soviets attacking them, which occur within hours. The Soviet BTR-70’s are destroyed within seconds by RPG’s then the team plus its reinforcements and the two APCs’, now mounting HMG, engage and destroy the rest of the force. The Soviets in Brownsville attack again but by then the 4th has landed and their vehicles are no match for the small force of M60 tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles. They dig into Highway 100 and all the approaches to Port Isabel. The seriously depleted team is sent back on the Christi to Norfolk as the rig begins to pump oil to the captured refinery. January 9, 2001 The 85th Infantry Division is moved by ship to reinforce the 4th Mechanized Division at Port Isabel. With the Soviets having destroyed the Mexican and marauder forces in the area the US forces are able to occupy Brownsville with no resistance. At Norfolk a small task force of the John Hancock, another destroyer, two empty tankers and four Omega ships is put together to carry the 43rd Infantry Division along with 3 M1A1, 3 M48A5 and 2 Bradley AFV and 500 replacements to reinforce the bridgehead in Texas using almost all the remaining oil at Norfolk in the process. January 16, 2001 Soviet Division Cuba and Brigada Tampica attempt to take Port Isabel, launching an assault with over 1500 men, 8 tanks and 12 APC’s. The desperate attack, having to go down a narrow neck of land, is stopped well short of the city as the tanks and APC’s, without room to maneuver, get chopped up by the US tanks and AFV’s. A tattered remnant of five tanks and APC’s and 400 men retreat to Harlingen and dig in. The MilGov forces lose less than 100 men in the attack. January 20, 2001 Texas The 43rd Infantry Division and the replacements arrive, bringing the 4th back up to 1000 men and the 85th to 500 men. They are reassigned to the CXXII U.S. Corps. Most of the native Mexican population of Brownsville has fled back in Mexico. Pennsylvania The 28th Infantry Division moves to the Shrewsbury, PA area and establishes a base camp in preparation for operations in PA. (We used to get regular intelligence briefings from our GM as part of the game we were playing. Again these posts are from the notebooks he kept of our game and its progress.) Last edited by Olefin; 11-12-2015 at 08:49 AM.
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#30
10-03-2012, 03:20 PM
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January 19, 2001 to March 1, 2001 – Last Submarine in my campaign as a player
The strike force that had already seen action in Grenada and Texas was reinforced with men drawn from the 5th as well several USN members and dispatched on the Corpus Christi to obtain vitally needed spare parts and weapons to be able to restore her and several of her sister submarines to full operational status. Over the next few weeks the force successfully raids the Weymouth Naval Station (under marauder control) as well as warehouses in Rhode Island under the control of Governor Britt and manages to obtain most of the needed spare parts. A total of twenty two Mk48 torpedoes and four fully functional Harpoon missiles are found between the two areas, as the Rhode Island Isolationists have what is left of the Newport Torpedo Station under their control and several weapons in their warehouses came from there. The parts to restore the Christi’s faulty fire control systems were also found as well. In addition the team recovers information from files in Rhode Island of a biodiesel plant that has been put into operation on Cape Cod that is capable of producing enough biodiesel to keep several of Carlucci's ships operating on diesel instead of alcohol or sail. During this period they also contact the 43rd Military Police Brigade, managing to barely escape with their lives when a mutiny by lower level officers and men loyal to John Carlucci kills the commander and much of his staff, bringing the Brigade under his control and ostensibly under CivGov as well. A small group of twenty two personnel remain loyal to MilGov and escape with the team. The team learns, from information obtained during the raid on Britt’s warehouses that Carlucci has control over the SSN Newport News, presumed lost at sea but actually found beached on Cape Cod and abandoned by all but five of its crew. He has had it brought to Nantucket to be repaired by the UBF to be used by them (ostensibly under CivGov control) to dominate the East Coast. The submarine only lacked reactor technicians which were due to arrive soon from CivGov and repairs to be made to her diving tanks to allow her to submerge. Using crewmen drawn from the Christi the Newport News is boarded and taken from Carlucci’s men and taken out of the harbor using the emergency diesel engine, which was fueled with biodiesel. During the escape, one of four operational torpedoes on board the submarine sinks the destroyer DD 793 Cassin Young, which was also at Nantucket being refitted by Carlucci’s men. Using crewmen and experts from the Christi, the Newport News’s reactors were started and both submarines proceeded to Norfolk. Repairs on the Corpus Christi were started immediately as she was needed on an urgent mission. The information on the biodiesel plant is also passed on to MilGov. Elsewhere January 25, 2001 The 278th Armored Regiment, reinforced to 600 men and 4 M47 Chaffee tanks as well as a dozen HMMVW Fire Support vehicles and five converted civilian armored cars is sent to Memphis to assist the 197th Infantry Brigade in operations in Tennessee.
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