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#31
10-03-2012, 05:29 PM
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"The 278th Armored Regiment, reinforced to 600 men and 4 M47 Chaffee tanks as well as a dozen HMMVW Fire Support vehicles and five converted civilian armored cars is sent to Memphis to assist the 197th Infantry Brigade in operations in Tennessee."
Ouch...the M24 Chaffee was a late WWII/Korean War light tank, surprisingly there are still spare parts for these vehicles in various warehouses, these are intended to support various MAPs (mostly in South America and the Far East). There are 72 still housed (and I should know, I counted every one of them thangs in 2007!!!). The complete vehicles are slowly being stripped of parts and were heading for the smelters. The M-47 Patton is also still in storage (some 300 in Italy per "Janes Military Balance") as well as in reserve with the Belgian Army (100), another 200 in the US (currently being expended as hard targets on various USAF and Army gunnery ranges).
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. 
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#32
10-03-2012, 11:21 PM
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Having the US have to use the Chaffee shows just how little they still had left as to armor in late 2000. Basically they are scraping the underside of the bottom of the barrel. But against guys armed with hunting rifles and Chinese made AK's its a very effective weapon still.
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#33
10-04-2012, 12:25 AM
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#34
10-04-2012, 07:50 AM
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Just because the hulls are available, doesn't mean that they are "runners". The M24/M47s haven't been operated since the late 1950s/early 1960s. They are slowly being stripped of parts and then sent to the smelters/gunnery ranges.
Outside of the military, there simply are not a lot of operational tanks (mostly in the hands of various reenactors or collectors) these vehicles are demilled, usually with the breechs being removed (or welded in place), the barrels having three holes drilled through (they can and are often plugged but only a fool would try to use the main gun). So you are left with a vehicle that might mount a machine gun or rifle. Still, as long as it runs, it will be a formidable vehicle. The static display vehicles are normally stripped of anything usable and then demilled. They might be of use as pillboxes...or even as a bluff. But then there is the flaw of tracked vehicles, they require an enormous logistical chain to keep them operational, POL-wise, the average tank gets really horrible mileage (along the lines of 1-3 gallons per mile), spare parts are also a problem, there is a reenactor in Jackson MS with a M-24, his tank has sit in his garage, lacking fuel pumps for its engine as well as a blown transmission. And as the years go by, parts are getting harder and harder to acquire, which means that you need some superb mechanics and a very well equipped workship to manufacture parts. In a Twilight world, at least in the US, you are more likely to see bank armored cars, with jury-rigged mounts, or even gun trucks with "sandwich" armor.
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#35
10-04-2012, 01:58 PM
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Thats why there are so few Chaffees available - i.e. they scrounged around for any armor that was still functional and put the best of the bunch into operation. In some cases they would have fabricated parts at machine shops from 40 and 50 year old drawings.
And they managed to get 4 Chaffees running and available. But four light tanks are better than using old armored cars. And they have those too - i.e. five converted civilian armored cars. Glad to hear the comments - keep them coming!
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#36
10-05-2012, 10:44 AM
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Comparatively, at a big picture level, it would be easier to rebuild (and I mean rebuild, not just slap some field-ex armor on a truck) existing five ton truck chassis into armored cars and arm them with weapons in the inventory. Lower profile than the factory stock truck, with a simple (probably open top) turret armed with .50 cal, Mk-19, or maybe a big hitter with 60mm mortar and a coax MG. A space in the back for sustainment cargo or a fire team worth of guys, maybe with a roof hatch and a couple gun shields and MG mounts ACAV style. Armor rated to stop 7.62 AP covers most of your threats. End result is a light armored vehicle that is adequate for the threat environment found in most of CONUS. Rather than single point production, which isn't possible, the proponent government (MilGov or CivGov) would have to look at distributing conversion plans and plans for fabricating specialized parts out to the various enclaves. How effectively they could make the program work would vary and I'm sure a lot of variation and modification would take place at the production end. And that is product designed AFVs, which either side might or might not even bother with, but is an example of a much more workable system than trying to put WW2 vintage armor back in the fight. Complete agreement with dragon that most "AFVs" in America circa 2000 are going to be modified commercial armored cars and Mad Max'ed technicals.
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#37
10-05-2012, 11:31 AM
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More timeline
Feb 1, 2001 - Iran The last of the reinforcements from Europe have arrived and have been distributed among the divisions there. The convoys from Europe, protected by the French as part of their helping the US logistically and otherwise in the Middle East (so they can avoid having to fight the Russians themselves for the oil) have brought a total of 6000 men, 41 tanks, 48 Bradley AFV, 40 LAV-25’s and 60 M113 APC’s from Europe along with over a 120 HMMVW of various types. In addition some 30 105mm and 18 155mm artillery pieces, 10 M109 SPG’s and 30 various AA vehicles have also arrived. Over two dozen helos of various types and spare parts for them were also part of the convoys as well as ammunition to replenish the seriously depleted munitions stores of CENTCOM. These stores and vehicles were considered separate from the deal made with the Germans for Omega as the fuel needed for the ships came from the French and not from the tanker found floating in the Baltic. Some 600 men who arrived in early December have just graduated from parachute training, bringing the strength of the 82nd Airborne back up to 3600 men, and another 500 men and six M1A2 tanks are added to the 101st, bringing them up to 4500 men and 6 tanks. The remaining 900 men are put into a replacement pool, giving CENTCOM an operational reserve for the first time in years. February 6, 2001 Pennsylvania The 28th Infantry Division moves to the York PA area and makes contact with the York Garrison, a combination of local militia and a US Army battalion left there to safeguard the United Defence-BMY defence plant as well as the Caterpillar and Harley Davidson plants. All three are still intact, lacking only electrical power to get them back into operation. There is considerable military material including vehicles either in process or in storage for reset or refit at the defence plant. A force of four M8 AGS, one M88A2, two M2 Bradleys, three M109A5 SPG and one FAASV are at the UD-BMY plant. The 28th incorporates a company of 100 men from the Garrison as well as one M109A5 and two AGS into its own force structure. The reason for the survival of the York plant is found a kilometer away by scouts using rad detectors... a crater surrounded by the still very radioactive debris of a 50kt nuclear warhead that didn’t detonate due to a faulty fuse, leaving the plant intact and very useable. Texas The Mexicans make another attempt to get the refinery. A combined attack by the Brigada San Luis Potosi and the remnants of Brigada Tampica on Port Isabel is stopped dead as the two USN destroyers, now fully refueled, use naval gunfire to help break up the attack down the narrow peninsula. A US counterattack hits the disorganized Mexicans and shatters both brigades for good. The US forces include a contingent of 60 South Texas Grange members who arrived by boat a week earlier. February 12, 2001 Outside Batesville AK a patrol is attacked by what the lone survivor identifies as a Goodyear Blimp. Two platoons of the 197th are assembled to find out what is going on. At Norfolk, the 1st Armored Division is being prepared to be shipped to Texas, with 4 M1 Abrams, 3 M48A5, 4 Stingrays and 2 M109 SPG assigned to it. A new unit that resurrects a famous name is formed at Norfolk. The 7th Cavalry Regiment, with an initial strength of 400 men mounted on horses, is formed from experienced cavalry troops in the replacement pool. Four M116 75mm pack howitzers, formerly used for ceremonial purposes, are attached to the unit. Feb 14, 2001 – Europe Near Riga the US 8th Infantry Division and the 26th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, who have come to an accommodation as allies against the Soviets, along with partisans from the Free Latvian Army, defeat the 11th Soviet Guards Army as they attempt to take the city. The 40th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, being composed almost entirely of Latvians and Estonians, mutinies and joins with the 26th Guards at a critical moment in the battle, leaving the rear of the 140th Motorized, along with the Army HQ, completely open to being attacked by it and the Free Latvian partisans. The 11th Guards Army takes catastrophic losses, with the 140th Motorized Rifle Division being totally destroyed in the fighting and the 107th Motorized reduced to scattered pockets of men totaling only some 800 men. The M1’s and Stingrays of the 8th, firing from camouflaged positions, along with hunter killer teams armed with RPG-16’s destroy the entire Soviet tank force of 36 T-55 tanks in 30 furious minutes of fighting. The survivors of the 11th Guards Army are mopped up over the next few days by the renegade Soviet units and Latvian partisans. Two hundred ragged survivors eventually make their way back to the Soviet Union. Last edited by Olefin; 11-12-2015 at 08:52 AM.
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#38
10-05-2012, 11:41 AM
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As to the Chaffee
Keep in mind that Norway operated them until 1993 in the real world, Uruguay still operates them today and Chile operated them until 1999. And the US, with a lot of its factories shut down by early 1998, would have been raiding every collector, armory, museum and arsenal they could find for tanks and other armored vehicles. So the idea of them being able to put a few back into service is not that farfetched. And I will take an old tank with a 75mm gun on it any day over an armored car with a few machine guns or a gun truck. Keep in mind places like http://www.site.ww2mv.com/ for places the military might find old tanks they can use in a desperate situation like the US is in by late 2000 of the Twilight War.
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#39
10-05-2012, 12:39 PM
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I could, however, see a small number of Chaffees operating in CONUS with Mil or CivGov forces during the Twilight War. I like little flavor pieces like that. This is only a partial excerpt but it might prove helpful: http://books.google.com/books?id=rZY...ed=0CCYQ6AEwAQ
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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#41
10-05-2012, 01:41 PM
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I've got an old (ca. 1988/1990) handbook on armor that notes that a few M3 Stuarts are in use in Central America...!
 I'm sure they're not any longer, but still the thought just tickles me. I think it was El Salvador.
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#42
10-05-2012, 02:11 PM
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Have this image of a bunch of marauders running for their lives, with burning jeeps mounting light machine guns littering a town square as this grizzled 75 year old WWII vet and his restored Stuart that he somehow got shells for is kicking their butts.
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#43
10-05-2012, 09:40 PM
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__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#44
10-05-2012, 11:35 PM
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#45
10-06-2012, 01:38 PM
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#46
10-06-2012, 01:53 PM
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However, take one of each at the start line of an offensive operation in the summer of 2000 in the Twilight War logistics situation and I bet the tank is deadlined and inoperable within 30 days due to lack of spares, available spares themselves being 50 years old, no one knowing how to keep the thing running, and vehicles from that era not being made, automotively, to last as long as more modern equipment. And that obviously doesn't even touch on the ammo (or lack thereof) issue. Having some experience shooting WW2 vintage (1943, Des Moines Ordnance Plant) .50 cal API-T ammo . . . I'd be excited to watch (from a distance and definitely not in the tank) someone put some vintage 75mm ammo through an M24. Meanwhile, the light armored vehicle built on a modified 5 ton chassis is trucking along (burning less fuel in the process), using chassis and automotive components that are so well supported in the logistical system that even in Y2K it may be possible to get spares, able to draw on a big enough body of trained maintenance personnel that even in Y2K experienced and familiar mechanics can likely be found (and if not civilian commercial diesel truck mechanics can cross over pretty easily) and reliant on types of ammunition that are, again, common enough that they can probably be kept in the fight on most any T2K battlefield. At the big picture level, it's logistics that will win (or lose) the fight for either of the rival US governments circa 2000. Systems so old that "legacy" doesn't even begin to describe them aren't going to be worth the effort to get into the fight or keep in the fight -- if it is even possible at all.
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#47
11-16-2012, 05:38 PM
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Feb 16, 2001
Pennsylvania The 28th Infantry Division makes contact with the Harrisburg Garrison; a force composed of state police, retired military and locally raised militia, under the control of the last elected governor of PA. They find that Three Mile Island didn’t suffer any EMP damage as it was shut down for overhaul and repairs during the attack. It is fully functional but only has fuel for producing 20 percent of its rated power for another five years, or ten percent for ten years. The 28th is ordered to support the restoration of power to the York UD-BMY plant as well as the Harley plant in York to restart production as well as assist the Governor in restoring stability to central PA. MilGov is excited to learn that the guard force there kept the plant intact and in working order. The inventory at the York plant has shown there are enough parts and vehicles stored out of the weather in various buildings to be able to produce 88 remanufactured or reset Bradley AFV’s of various types, 16 remanufactured M109A5 SPG, 14 new build FAASV, 42 new build M8 AGS, 12 reset M9ACE and 26 remanufactured M88A2 vehicles. That will allow MilGov to rearm to some extent the forces recently evacuated from Europe. A significant amount of the former plant personnel including some 38 trained welders have been found still living in and around York and have been promised food and safe accommodations for them and their families while they work to build these vehicles, which will take quite some time to deliver them all. Beyond the fully salvageable vehicles that can be completed there are also a large amount of vehicles that can be stripped for spare parts as well as additional stored parts that can be used to make vehicles operational at division depots throughout the MilGov area of control. California The 177the Brigade (OPFOR Brigade), which has held Fort Irwin since the Mexican invastion, begins a limited offensive to clear the marauders from the Brigada Ensenada from its scattered positions in and around Barstow in preparation for an attack on the 1st Brigada’s position near Edwards Air Force Base along with the 40th Infantry. February 24, 2001 A small tanker arrives in Norfolk with oil from Gulf Forty to fuel the ships that will bring the 1st Armored Division to Texas as well as to allow the remaining navy ships at Norfolk and Cape May to begin limited operations again. Feb 27, 2001 – Bears Den CivGov announces a major victory as the last of the 13th Army forces in Lvov surrenders to a large force of partisans and the 27th NATO Tank Division (which is nominally under CivGov control). The mass escape of 2500 Chinese and NATO POWS from the POW camp near Lvov, engineered by the partisans, helped immensely with this, with the NATO troops alone increasing the 1st Armored Brigade to nearly 600 men. What is left of the 13th Army has retreated to Ternopol. This victory was made possible by the sabotaging of the SCUD missile that was to attack Drogobych, which instead detonated directly over the 128th before it attacked the city. The 128th followed its orders and attacked the city and overwhelmed its garrison but the virus left them unable to resist the ensuing attack of the 27th Tank Division, who captured most of their equipment including three of their four tanks. The 27th was then able to refuel and stop the attack of the 318th, pushing them back and capturing many of their vehicles as well as they ran out of fuel. A siege of Lvov and Olesko began, which led to the capture of Olesko Castle in early January. Much of the Lvov Guard either deserted or surrendered as the 27th fought their way into the city. Last edited by Olefin; 11-12-2015 at 08:53 AM.
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#48
11-17-2012, 07:51 AM
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#49
11-19-2012, 11:25 AM
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thats one reason the 28th is being tasked to get power restored to the York plant - between it and Harley they have a lot of machinging equipment and expertise - they can make parts if they have to, fabricate harnesses and the York plant can cut armor plate to size and weld it.
A very good resource to have for MilGov.
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#50
11-19-2012, 12:31 PM
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Recovery should not be that hard. You've got to get good security in place with loyal people. If you can do that, then people will stick around because they live in a world where survival is not a given. PA also has farmland. If the farmers can concentrate on farming and not fighting, then there is excess for for workers. Those guys can get to work restoring power, fixing machines..... it all just comes down to being able to control the ground you're on.
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#52
11-19-2012, 03:53 PM
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Its smart. They have a vested interest in seeing recovery start at home.
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#53
11-19-2012, 03:59 PM
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Also increases risk of desertion, though, I'd think -- you're from Pennsylvania, you're sent to Pennsylvania, but the unit's AOR doesn't cover your home community (or you're just sick of military service and home is nearby) there is going to be a stronger motivation to take off than for a unit in Pennsylvania that originated in, say, Florida or Oregon.
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#54
11-19-2012, 04:55 PM
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not if they are properly motivated - i.e. guys if you take off then the state is screwed and we wont be able to protect anyone but with us all hanging together we can start here in central PA and then expand until we have the whole state back in one piece - of course you have to do it as well - that will keep them together for a while but if its a year later and they are still sitting in York and Harrisburg then you will have some real issues begin
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#55
11-19-2012, 05:43 PM
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Imgaine the white death is coming. I'd much rather have my guard buddies around then just be by myself.
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#56
11-19-2012, 06:13 PM
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In '89 during the Tianamen Square protests/riots, the first units deployed were army units directly in the Tianamen military district. Commanders found the men reluctant to put the boot in against "their own" people, so those units were rotated out and replaced with units from the rural areas. It's my understanding that, at the time at least, there was a lot of tension between those two groups. The rural folk, the farmers, looked down on the folks in the city as decadent and "westernized" (read: lazy) and folks in the city regarded the other provinces as simplistic and uneducated (read: counterrevolutionary). This was the perfect match for the ChiCom junta: both sides hated each other and the military needed little provocation to kill a few dozen/hundred demonstrators.
Food for thought.
__________________
THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.
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#57
11-28-2012, 05:02 PM
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Before anyone thinks I am trying stir up conflict here, keep in mind this is my feelings and those of my GM when we played back in college, on why the events of Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness did not happen in that campaign. As you have already seen canon took several turns already - but this details why my GM threw those modules in the trash (which I agreed with at the time) for the subsequent events in the timeline. Thus this is not about canon - its about how my timeline differs from canon and why and how it does.
Remember that campaign is where this timeline comes from and how it diverged from canon. Thus this is not an attempt to refute the canon and say we (my GM and those who played in that campaign) are somehow right and the canon is wrong. It is how we approached the canon events of those two modules and decided, as a group, that those events would not be part of our campaign world and thus eventually this timeline. March 2001 – September 2001 The world wide changes in weather that bring a drought that kills most of the remaining population of the United States of America that is in Kidnapped and Howling Wilderness and mentioned elsewhere does not occur in my timeline as they did not occur in the campaign my GM ran with us in college for the reasons given below. Reasons: 1) The weather effects as depicted in those two modules completely fail to mention the effect of the El Nino and the Gulf Stream on North American weather. Neither of those two would have been affected by the nuclear strikes on North America. The Gulf Stream in particular has a huge effect on bringing moisture into the eastern part of the United States as well as moderating temperatures, no matter what happens in the continent itself. 2) The drought as depicted would take a much bigger climatic event than the nuclear strikes as depicted in Twilight 2000. To bring on a change of that magnitude would have required almost the entire arsenal of both sides to be used with much bigger mega tonnage, mostly as ground bursts in order to generate the needed dust and debris – in which case most of the world would be dead from radiation effects already. The nuclear powers avoided ground bursts as much as possible from the descriptions given in various source books and modules – and thus the strikes, while numerous, lack the ability to change weather on a global scale. 3) If anything the effect of debris and dust thrown into the air would have produced more rainfall and snowfall, not less. Thus you wouldn’t be looking at drought but increased rainfall, especially in the areas where the nukes hit the hardest. 4) Beyond the scientific reasons, the simple fact is that the uber drought and plagues, as described in Kidnapped, would have destroyed the population of the United States, Canada and Mexico beyond the ability of those nations to be able to rebuild in any time less than multiple centuries. The mass starvations would have left those still alive totally susceptible to plague and other illnesses to the point that there would have been very few survivors. Thus the whole Twilight 2300 AD timeline, as presented by GDW, cannot occur as it relates to North America, with this drought and plague. And without the US, Mexico, Canada and Texas recovering per that timeline, 2300 AD falls apart as a possible future. Also as presented in Kidnapped, almost all the areas that show any ability to survive the drought are under the control of New America. CivGov basically has no area left under their control that is survivable and MilGov has Colorado Springs while New America has a lot better situation overall – which is pretty convenient topography indeed. Thus the final defeat of New America becomes a non-event as they would end up being by far the most numerious afterward. And again so much for Twilight 2300 AD. After much discussion, our GM and the few players who were still interested in the game decided to throw both modules into the trash and we continued, ignoring the drought and any reference to it in the modules we used, until the group finally broke up after college. Thus, while there will be local droughts and plague events in 2001 AD in my timeline, there will be no massive drought and destruction of the remaining population of the United States per what we discussed. As I have seen on this forum, that position is a very common one among its members, though not in any way universal. Kidnapped and Howling Wilderness thus will not make any kind of appearance in the Olefin timeline – to me and my GM when we played, they are as much apocrypha as City of Angels is or as realistic as the scenarios in Twilight Nightmares.
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#58
11-28-2012, 08:28 PM
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Speaking upthread about old ammo...
I found This Video At the Time I was looking at a M9A1 Autocannon for $5,000 and I was trying to find the ammo to go with it.
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#59
11-29-2012, 04:36 PM
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March 5, 2001 Med Cruise (as played by my group)
The repairs on the Corpus Christi have been completed and she leaves for the Mediterranean on her mission. She has on board about two thirds of a normal crew complement, nineteen torpedoes, four Harpoon missiles and three Tomahawk missiles, as well as spare parts needed for three other SSN’s. In addition she has on board four DIA agents, military spare parts and supplies and ten men from the New England strike team. She travels across the Atlantic, enters the Med and proceeds to Sicily and picks up one DIA agent and drops off another. Her next stop is then Yugoslavia, where contact is made with DIA agents working to turn the 42nd Infantry Division over to MilGov. Two more agents are dropped off here where they join up with a group of officers friendly to MilGov to deliver a bribe of parts for the division’s commander that could put a dozen of his M60 tanks back into operation, plus some 48 shells for those tanks. On the way out the Corpus Christi attacks and sinks an Italian DD on patrol with a single torpedo. Her next stop is at an Israeli naval base where parts are dropped off to repair SSN-666, the USS Hawkbill (Sturgeon class), which is in port there, as well as for SSN-773, USS Cheyenne (Los Angeles class), which is at Bahrain. In addition she transfers six torpedoes and one Harpoon missile for the Hawbill. Cheyenne has most of her weapons load out still but Hawbill was down to her last two torpedoes. She then leaves for Greece after picking up a large shipment of weapons from the Israelis. In Greece she picks up a DIA agent who has the location of two scientists who have vital information for MilGov. The sub travels thru the Dardanelles and drops off the strike team, who make contact with the Romanian resistance fighters after three days that have the scientists, and agree to exchange them for the weapons on the submarine. The submarine then proceeds to the contact point, where in the process of unloading the weapons they are attacked by Soviet units after being betrayed by an agent in the resistance group. The initial Soviet attack force is destroyed in a hard fight but at the cost of a third of the resistance members. A radio taken off a dying Soviet officer reveals a second Soviet attack with tank support is on its way, and the strike team along with the resistance force sets an ambush quickly. They are able to destroy both Soviet tanks and three APC’s, leading to a Soviet withdrawal as their morale breaks. The resistance commander gives them a message for the captain as he loads the weapons in several trucks. The submarine then moves off shore and fires the three Tomahawk missiles, using the positional fix he received from the resistance leader as to where he was exactly on a map of the Romanian coast, at the Ploesti oil fields and refinery complexes there. He then reveals they were TLAM-N nuclear missiles and that MilGov is counting on this strike to win the war by destroying the last source of gasoline for the Soviets in Europe. The submarine commander, after reading the message given him by the resistance leader, gives the order to take the sub as quickly as possible for Portsmouth, UK to drop off the last of its parts. Clearly the message has disturbed him.
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#60
11-29-2012, 05:05 PM
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That there is my kind of hard core.
__________________
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