Need your help/advice on optics , supressors and so on!

[B.T.]

Hi everybody!

I need your help in certain aspects of accessories for firearms. I'm GMing a campaign using the v2.2 rules. I stick to the given timeline. Therefore I assume, that a lot of special parts, like the SOPMOD kits for the M16/M4 carbine and similar equipment, are not in widespread use. But certain pieces are certainly available. Some pieces can even be homemade, given the talents (Gunsmith skills!).

1) How do you handle the effects of supressors? I use the noise table from MERC 2000, but I'm not sure, how a supressor would vary the ranges. All kinds of silencers and supressors basically slow the bullet's speed. This must have some effect on the ranges!
By the way: "Infantry weapons of the world" does not reduce the range of the bullet. For example: the data for the MP-5A2 and the MP5-SD3 are identical but as far as I can see, the range for the supressed MP should be reduced.
Has any one of you some kind of house rule?

2) How do you handle laser pointers in the game? In the early 90ies some pistols could be equipped with those. And laser pointers were very popular in schools and universities. These could easily be fitted to a rifle. Specialized rifle or pistol equipment will certainly be better suited for combat, but more "civil" items could be used (Maybe with reduced sighting ranges?).
How far does the beam go?
Isn't it easier to aim? Would a shot with a laser beamer or pointer become easier, i.e. reducing the difficulty level?

3) Last, not least, how alter flashlights, used as an aiming device, the chances of aiming? Is it easier to aim with them (again: decrease of the difficulty level?)? What about the "effective range" of the beam?

I'm well aware, that certain circumstances - like fog, rain, snow, or dust - have their effects on flashlights and laser pointers. Any ideas, how to handle this?

I'm afraid, the "Use your wits/experience!"-approach does not work here, because I have non.

I'd be verry thankful for any help on these and related issues.

Thanks for your help!

[pmulcahy11b]

I know this isn't a lot of help, but I have struggled with this for a while now. The Special Operations handbook allows for the user of a laser pointer to take up to three aimed shots per phase if the targets are within 40 meters. I allow the user of a reflex-type sight to make aimed shots on the move during any movement that allows at least a Difficult shot (you have to see my House Rules for Weapons to understand what that means). I allow the same for laser pointers during movement if the shot is at short range.

I have on my site under Equipment - Vision Devices some rules for scopes other than the standard 3-5x provided in the T2K rules.

Somewhere in one of the rulebooks, there are rules for suppressed weapons and noise that mentions Class I, Class II, and Class III noise, but I can't seem to find it right now.

I've heard in some places that the design of the MP-5SD allows for full-power rounds and ranges comparable to a standard MP-5, but most sources disagree. The MP-5SD on my site does not have anywhere near the range of the standard MP-5. In general, it seems that if you use the actual barrel length (which is usually shorter on a silenced weapon) and divide the range you get in figures from Fire, Fusion and Steel formulas by 1.2, it comes out about right for range.

If you don't have Fire, Fusion and Steel, it's worth the buy. I have some spreadsheets that, while not perfect, will get you in the ballpark for figures.

[Legbreaker]

As we all know, the printed range of a weapon is it's "close" range. x2 for medium, x4 for long and x8 for extreme.
Therefore a weapon of say 5.56mmN with a range of 50 would be as follows.

PHP Code:

Close   Medium   Long   Extreme
  50     100      200     400 


We also know that the bullet doesn't just drop out of the air the moment it hits 401 metres, but can travel several miles further on.
Therefore I would say the energy loss from a supressor isn't really going to have enough of an impact on game mechanics to worry about effecting accuracy. Hitting power on the other hand may be reduced by say -1 to each die of damage.

Dark Conspiracy (and Special Ops I think) state laser sights allow the first three rounds in a phase/turn to be aimed rather than the usual one. From memory it has no effect on quick shots and is only effective to 40 metres.

Flashlights have a much wider beam than a laser. My thoughts are the only real benefit is they let the user keep both hands on their weapon and still see.

[B.T.]

Thanks for quick answers and your thoughts on the item.

@Paul: I have a copy of "Fire,Fusion,Steel" but, to be honest: I had forgotten about that fact. I'll check it in the next days. But a very helpful hint!

Btw: Your site is really amazing and I will propably check it for your special rules. Keep up the good work!

Well, any further thought on the subject will be appreciated.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's some optional rulings and gear from a friend who was running a Dark Conspiracy game, keep in mind that some of the devices are from the 1990s-2000s so they might be too advanced for the Twilight War and you'd have to adjust the prices and availability codes from Dark Conspiracy to T2k

Laser Aiming Devices
Commonly called a LAD (pronounced lad) in military usage. Laser beams are normally invisible with the ‘dot’ being visible purely because it is projected onto a background (presumably the target). In smoke, fog, steam and very dusty conditions, the beam reflects from the particles in the air and is easily seen and can be followed back to the shooter’s position. Infrared and ultraviolet lasers are in the invisible spectrum for human eyes preventing this problem but are of limited use as IR viewers, thermal imagers or night vision devices are required to see the dot.

Smoke, fog, steam and dust along with rain and snow, can all diffuse the beam so that it is considerably duller than required. They can even block the laser beam so that it never reaches the target.
Range to the target can also diminish the brightness of the dot and thus make it harder to see.

Use of any Laser Aiming Device allows the user to conduct any shot as though it were an Aimed Shot. However due to the requirement to actually see the laser dot, the user must succeed at an Observation check before this benefit can be used. The Observation check will be subject to all the modifiers that apply to the laser beam itself plus any applicable to the vision of the user.
Despite their limitations, LADs can still be of benefit particularly when trying to hit a specific body location and so on.

Infrared Aiming Light: This provides a dot of laser light similar to that of any Laser Aiming Device. It is visible, however, only to those using night vision devices. Has a maximum range of 2000 metres in optimal night conditions and 700m in poor night conditions. These devices were likely first used by West Germany’s GSG9 on their H&K series rifles & SMGs in the late 1980s although heavy use was made of them in the early 1990s during Operation Desert Storm by Coalition forces.
Weight: 0.1kg
Price: $850 (R/C)

Laser Aiming Device, Pistol: This fingertip sized laser projects a visible dot (usually red) that can be used to quickly bring the weapon into alignment with the target. Bright daylight diminishes the intensity of red dot devices, reducing maximum range to around 50m. Otherwise, maximum range is 150m. More expensive orange dot lasers perform better in daylight, having a range of 75m in bright light while maximum range is 200m.
Wt: negligible (both types)
Price: red dot $280 (S/C), orange dot $350 (R/S)

Laser Aiming Device, Rifle, Common: This mini-flashlight sized laser projects a visible dot (usually red) that can be used to quickly bring the weapon into alignment with the target. Bright daylight diminishes the intensity of the dot, reducing the maximum range to 150m, otherwise maximum effective range is 450m. These devices have been used to good psychological affect by some police forces as many criminals find it disconcerting to have the red dot on their chest, indicating exactly where the police marksman will be hitting.
Wt: 0.3kg
Price: $410 (C/C)

Laser Aiming Device, Rifle, Military/Police: Essentially a more powerful version of the unit in the description above. Bright daylight diminishes the intensity of the dot, reducing the maximum range to 300m, otherwise maximum effective range is 900m. Note that at ranges beyond 500m, some sort of telescopic sight must be used to actually see the dot.
Weight: 0.3kg
Price: $620 (S/C)

Laser/Infrared Aiming Light Unit: This combines the features of the red dot Laser and the Infrared Aiming Devices so that the user can select between visible and invisible dots as required for day or night use. See those entries for beam range. It can also be used underwater to a range of 20 Metres. It may also be used as a source of illumination for those wearing NVGs much like a flashlight as the infrared light beam can be focused to provide either the tight beam for the aiming dot or a broad beam.
Weight: 0.2kg
Price: $750 (-/R)

Red Dot Sights

Red Dot Sight, Pistol: This Reflex Sight works like a 1x sight but uses a red dot projected into the focal plane of the eyepiece rather than a normal reticle. Able to be used with both eyes open and in day or night (adjustable brightness), the user simply places the dot over the target. It lowers the Difficulty Level by one step when aiming, out to a range of 100m. Typically fitted to pistols, shotguns and SMGs, however these sights are only useful when conducting an Aimed Shot.
Wt: 0.1kg
Price: $275 (C/C)

Red Dot Sight, Rifle: Essentially the same device as mentioned above however using an adjustable dot (a smaller dot is needed for longer ranges). It lowers the Difficulty Level by one step when aiming, out to a range of 500 metres. Typically fitted to carbines and medium range rifles e.g. 5.56mm types.
Wt: 0.1kg
Price: $350 (C/C)

[Legbreaker]

I challenge anyone with normal vision to see a tiny red dot at more than a few dozen metres....
Can't see how some of those ranges can possibly work.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I challenge anyone with normal vision to see a tiny red dot at more than a few dozen metres....
Can't see how some of those ranges can possibly work.

There's also the factor of darkness vs. daylight. And looking at your dot through a scope. Hmmm...I need to give it more thought.

[Legbreaker]

Looking through a scope wouldn't be so bad as your field of vision is rather restricted (and hopefully the optics you're looking through have crosshairs to narrows it down further).
A red dot though is going to be near impossible to see in daylight and over open sights at more than a few dozen paces. Throw in smoke, movement (both target and shooter) and it'd make it extremely hard, if not near impossible to spot it.

Range is another factor - no bullet flies perfectly straight and level. Over distance the projectile will drop. Depending on the speed of the projectile, wind, air temperature, altitude (air pressure), and a multitude of other factors this might only be a few millimetres or it could be measurable in feet. Light from a laser on the other hand is usually uneffected by most of these factors.

[pmulcahy11b]

My brain hurts. I'll come back to this later -- maybe much later. Maybe let it percolate a while.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The ranges for the laser aimers are based on modern equipment. The only issue is whether a person can spot the laser dot or not, hence the Observation skill check. If it needs to be seen at longer ranges, you'll have to have some sort of magnifying sight.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Ive actually found that a red dot sight such as an Aim point easier to use then a laser and it is not effected by the environment. Ones vision might be though. You can readily see the red dot and do not have to try and look for it down range. its much more user friendly and seems to be quicker on acquiring the target. Also the red dot sight depending on type or quality can be used out to 300+ meters.

[B.T.]

Oh, man ...

This more complicated than I thought.

A very good idea is the Observation-check. I think, I'll definitely let my players do this.

But again to the supressors/silencers. Leg, you are defenitely right, in the case of assault rifles. But is it still the case if we talk about pistols? I still am not sure, but I think the ranges should be reduced, if a shot is at a longer distance than "short range".
I will certainly reduce the damage and the penetration of supressed weapons. Something like: -1 per 1D6. Not quite sure, how I'll do the Penetration decrease, maybe I'll take Paul's houserules.

Thanks, mates, you've really been a good help. If someone wants to give his 2 cents to this issue - I'd be glad for any further input!

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

[Gamer]

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the range loss is as it pertains to subsonic rounds, which also tend to be pushing heavier bullets than standard. Rounds like .45 ACP, which are naturally subsonic, would not be affected by such. It would also depend upon the construction of the silencer.

The one first-hand source I have was a roommate of mine at 24th ID, who was with 2nd Ranger BN before an injury. He told me that while an MP5SD is very quiet (the bolt clatter is MUCH louder than the firing noise), the range is degraded significantly over a standard MP5. This, he said, was primarily due to the shorter rifled length of the barrel and something having to do with gas coming from the baffles. Silencers with wipes also degrade range. Brian Roethel knew his weapons, and was armorer-qualified on weapons I hadn't even heard of at the time. Most research I've done backs this up.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think I see what's going here: the confusion between a silencer and a suppressor.

A silencer is designed to seriously knock down the sound of a weapon firing, and it generally does that with a combination of subsonic ammunition and a special device, the silencer, which works by both/or a set of baffles which use the firing gasses and wipes that physically touch the round going down the silencer to slow it, to contain firing gasses and stop the bullet from exiting the barrel at supersonic velocity. These will reduce range, penetration, and damage. Heavier bullets and steel-cored bullets are often used to compensate for this.

A suppressor does not "silence" a weapon (no silencer actually makes a weapon sound like it does in the movies, BTW) -- it dampens most of the muzzle blast, and while it reduces noise very little, can cause confusion as to where the shot came from when heard from a distance. The primary reason for the use of a suppressor is to eliminate firing signature. It would not reduce range, damage, or penetration, though they do tend to wear out eventually, degrading accuracy in the process.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

The first military use reported is the Son Tay Raid during the Vietnam War. Widespread use came in the late 90s with the US Army Infantry getting them. I think the USMC lagged a few years behind us. Other nationalities, I don't know about.

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

Bottom line though, you could logically explain it.

[Gorbag]

I just had a brain thingie on this subject, so I thought I'd comment here.

The Israelis got big into red dot sights in the late 80s/early 90s. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the equipment they used, but I'm sure it's out there in the interwebnets. Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature. I suppose you could argue within the T2K timeframe about US units acting in concert with Israelis, seeing the cool gear, and making a case for general issue (if not some trading/midnight requisitions for personal use).

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Gorbag

Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature.

Please don't think I'm trying to come across as a know-it-all and correct you, I'm trying to support your comments.

Aimpoint was actually around in the late 60s. The Son Tay Raiders took Aimpoint's first 200 produced sights for that mission. In those days they were designed for shotguns though, not military weapons.

One of the benefits of being at Benning was getting to talk to a bunch of the Raiders who now have contractor jobs on post (not PMC contractors, Range Control, doctrine writers and other office-type jobs). Apparently COL Simons heard about them and took all 200 of their first production run, then taped them to the carrying handles of their rifles. Nighttime accuracy went from 10-15% to about 75% according to the commander of the Greenleaf element.

Definitely a real world precedent, with supporting data, for an ambitious commander in Twilight (2000 or 2013), to submit an Operational Needs Statement to purchase red-dot sights for his battalion/brigade prior to the real world acceptance and issue in the late 90s. Then the whole issue of "general issue" is avoided.

[natehale1971]

okay.... i know this isn't part of the subject header, but i have a question about silencers. Can the silencer be built into a barrel and help with accuracy of the rifle, smg or pistol? I ask this out of an idea for a bullpup type series of weapons for my 2300ad campaign (image based off of some Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed weapons).

[Legbreaker]

OOOOO! I love Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed! Such awesome big guns and who can resist power armour!?

I rather doubt integral suppressors, etc will do much for the accuracy of the weapon. Barrel length and matching the number of twists to the ammo it's to fire is about the only real way you'll have any real effect.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

OOOOO! I love Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed! Such awesome big guns and who can resist power armour!?

I rather doubt integral suppressors, etc will do much for the accuracy of the weapon. Barrel length and matching the number of twists to the ammo it's to fire is about the only real way you'll have any real effect.

Yup! Shiro does some good stuff (and actually does the technical drawings to back up what he's designed).

Can the silencer have the rifling as part of it? or does that defeat the purpose of the silencer?

[Legbreaker]

You could rifle the interior of the silencer, but as they're usually composed of lots of baffles it wouldn't do any good. Far better in my opinion to keep the barrel and silencer as seperate units, at least for calculating accuracy, muzzle velocity, etc.
As silencers tend to wear out faster than barrels, it might be more cost effective to have them as seperate units too. Perhaps not able to be removed in the field, but certainly back in the workshop with the right tools.

[Gorbag]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Please don't think I'm trying to come across as a know-it-all and correct you, I'm trying to support your comments.

Aimpoint was actually around in the late 60s. The Son Tay Raiders took Aimpoint's first 200 produced sights for that mission. In those days they were designed for shotguns though, not military weapons.

One of the benefits of being at Benning was getting to talk to a bunch of the Raiders who now have contractor jobs on post (not PMC contractors, Range Control, doctrine writers and other office-type jobs). Apparently COL Simons heard about them and took all 200 of their first production run, then taped them to the carrying handles of their rifles. Nighttime accuracy went from 10-15% to about 75% according to the commander of the Greenleaf element.

Definitely a real world precedent, with supporting data, for an ambitious commander in Twilight (2000 or 2013), to submit an Operational Needs Statement to purchase red-dot sights for his battalion/brigade prior to the real world acceptance and issue in the late 90s. Then the whole issue of "general issue" is avoided.

No worries...information is good.

And I had no idea those were Aimpoints on the Raiders' guns. Wow. Learn something new everyday.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I've posted about it a coupla times on other forums, but during OCS, our OCS Ball, Infantry Officers Basic Course, and the Maneuver Captain's Career Course, each of those Battalions brought in MAJ (Ret.) Dan Turner, the commander of the Greenleaf Element of the Son Tay Raid and he would give a little history of the raid, geared to the different levels of expertise. As the level of professional education increased, so did the relevance of the questions. After each, there was time allotted for handshaking and individual questions as well. If you ever get the chance, you should definitely talk to him.

Then a couple of other times we got to meet other Raiders as well, one of the most interesting was when I was talking to my dad about it in a restaurant in Athens, Alabama. Some guy overheard us and came and introduced himself as one of the NCOs in the Blueboy element. I've had no way to verify him since, but he definitely talked the talk enough to convince me, which is pretty difficult to do as I consider myself a pretty good Poser Hunter.

But, I'll quit threadjacking now and return you back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[B.T.]

Hi Eddie!

From my point of view your info was good and helpful. And minor threadjacking can get you even more input and newer ideas!

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Eddie

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

What does YMMV stand for? It's new to me.

[Eddie]

Your mileage may vary.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You could rifle the interior of the silencer, but as they're usually composed of lots of baffles it wouldn't do any good. Far better in my opinion to keep the barrel and silencer as seperate units, at least for calculating accuracy, muzzle velocity, etc.
As silencers tend to wear out faster than barrels, it might be more cost effective to have them as seperate units too. Perhaps not able to be removed in the field, but certainly back in the workshop with the right tools.

Can't rifle a suppressor. You would have a swiss cheese can after about 5-6 rounds.

[Legbreaker]

Exactly. While you can file lands into the baffles, it's virtually pointless and potentially dangerous.

[B.T.]

Oh no, it's that old optics thing again.

But I am really uncertain about several facts concerning the variants of the M16 in the T2k universe.

That's what I think is correct:
The standard rifle for all the US combat troops is the M16A2. I assume, a small contingent of M4 carbines has been issued. The majority is of the first production type, with the new handguard.
Another model would be the M4 or M4A1 MWS, the one with the rails.
The SOPMOD block 1 is in use, but only in very limited numbers.

I've read several things about the M16A3: Now, what is it? Is it a M16A2 variant with the full-auto option but with a fixed rear-sight/carrying handle, or is a flat top?

Next question: When have the M16 MWS variants been fielded? Or when were the rails for the long barrel rifle variants put into production or use?

I am well aware, that a lot more variants would be in use, especially the M16A2 carbine variants (M-733, M-723, maxbe even older XM-177En). Civilian versions will also be encountered.

How easy (or not) would it be, to equip the older versions with the A1-style handguards with the parts of the SOPMOD kits?
Would all the M4 variants be flat-tops?

I know, it is a very complicated issue, so I could really use a little help on this.

Any constructive income is welcome!