Need your help/advice on optics , supressors and so on!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Oh no, it's that old optics thing again.

But I am really uncertain about several facts concerning the variants of the M16 in the T2k universe.

That's what I think is correct:
The standard rifle for all the US combat troops is the M16A2. I assume, a small contingent of M4 carbines has been issued. The majority is of the first production type, with the new handguard.
Another model would be the M4 or M4A1 MWS, the one with the rails.
The SOPMOD block 1 is in use, but only in very limited numbers.

I've read several things about the M16A3: Now, what is it? Is it a M16A2 variant with the full-auto option but with a fixed rear-sight/carrying handle, or is a flat top?

Next question: When have the M16 MWS variants been fielded? Or when were the rails for the long barrel rifle variants put into production or use?

I am well aware, that a lot more variants would be in use, especially the M16A2 carbine variants (M-733, M-723, maxbe even older XM-177En). Civilian versions will also be encountered.

How easy (or not) would it be, to equip the older versions with the A1-style handguards with the parts of the SOPMOD kits?
Would all the M4 variants be flat-tops?

I know, it is a very complicated issue, so I could really use a little help on this.

Any constructive income is welcome!

The M16A3 is the M16A2 with a flattop receiver, topped by a MIL-STD-1913
rail. The front sight is retained; a BUIS (Backup Iron Sight) can be attached to the receiver rail, and the BUIS for the M16A3 isn't much different from that of the M16A2 in function. Some BUISs fold, allowing the shooter to keep it on his rifle even when optics are attached. The M16A3 uses the 3-round burst setting of the M16A2.

The M16A4 is the M16A3 with full-auto capability instead of the 3-round burst setting.

There is also an AR-15A3, which is the same as the M16A3 except that it can be used only in the semiautomatic mode, and has been designed to be virtually impossible to be converted to automatic fire. (The AR-15A2 is also designed to be close to impossible to convert to automatic fire.)

In either case, a standard rear sight/carrying handle can be attached to the receiver rail.

The standard M4 is basically a shrunken M16A2. M4 handguards cannot be used on an M16 or AR15 series and vice-versa. The M4A1 is the M4 equivalent of the M16A4. I've heard of an M4A2, but I don't remember offhand what its characteristics are. A civilian version of the M4 exists (going by the same name), but it has a 16-inch barrel as opposed to the 14.5-inch barrel of a military M4.

The SOPMOD kit was originally designed specifically for the M-4 series, but SOPMOD kits have since been developed for the M16A3 and M16A4. These have four-point MIL-STD-1913 rails on the handguards. The SOPMOD handguards can also be used with the M16A2 (or M16A1, M16, or AR-15 series for that matter). A plethora of accessories and optics have been designed for use with an M16 series rifle with SOPMOD rails.

M16-series rifles (and AR-15s and AR-15A1s) cannot have their handguards fitted with the SOPMOD kit, but their handguards can be replaced with the handguards of the M16A3/A4 or handguards with SOPMOD rails. Takes all of 30 seconds if you're taking your time. A good gunsmith can also take off the carrying handle of earlier M16s and AR-15s, leaving it flat; these have been fitted with Weaver rails, MIL-STD-1913 rails, drilling and tapping for scope bases, or special solutions for specific bases and optics (primarily early in the development of the M16/AR-15 series when the M16A3/A4/M4A1/AR-15A3 were not yet available). Adapters also exist to mount optics directly on the carrying handle of earlier rifles, but most shooters felt that this was a bad solution, leading to instability and bad aiming due to inadequate cheek weld and leaving them a little more vulnerable since they had to raise their head a little higher to use the optics.

The sliding stock of the M4 can be attached to M16/AR-15 series rifles.

The M16/AR-15/M4 series is perhaps the most copied rifle in the world; numerous clones exist, many of which have different rail solutions, sight solutions, barrel lengths, or items like muzzle brakes or shooter-removable flash suppressors or muzzle brakes that allow the attachment of suppressors. True silencers for the M16/M4/AR-15 are relatively rare, since they exact a serious penalty on the round's range and accuracy (particular when using a subsonic round). The M16 series is known to not function efficiently with less than a 10-inch barrel (though the Israelis, for a short time, used a CAR-16 with the barrel cut down to 9 inches). This is a problem with the Stoner direct gas impingement system and not the round. When they are used with less than a 14.5-inch barrel, muzzle blast and flash become progressively more massive, which is why many such shortened rifles have muzzle brake/flash suppressor combinations, massive muzzle brakes, or suppressors.

I'm willing to bet that someone would have modified the M16A1, M16A2, and M4 to the M16A3/A4 or M4A1 standard in the T2K timeline, whether informally in small batches or on a limited production basis (assuming they don't actually exist in T2K in the first place).

I'd like to offer you constructive income, but I could use some constructive income myself...(yes, I do know that was a mistype, but it was a funny mistype.)

[B.T.]

Paul, thanks a lot!

I've had a mistyping in my earlier post by myself. I was aware that the handguards of the carbine versions do not fit to the full length rifles. I was thinking about the handguards with a round cross-section (In service since the Vietnam era, right?).

I personally would like to offer the player characters the chance to get a SOPMOD model in their hands, just because of the possibility to fix several optics and so forth.

I know that there has been a small telescopic rifle sight, that can be mounted on the carrying handle of the earlier M16/AR15 rifles. But I think the newer types of optics, especially red dots and reflex types, or the ACOGs, would be a very welcomed option.

Do you know, since when the rails for the M16A3/A4 exist IRL?

You would say, there is no room for the M4 SOPMODs in the original T2k? Is this true even for the Ver2.n?

Edit: Ouch, the "constructive income" was my mistyping anyway. But if it was good for your amusement, I'm fine with that

[bobcat]

there are optics that attatch to the equipment carrying handle of an M16A2 or Car-15 variant(pre M4). the first ones that come to mind being the ACOG in service since around 1990 in specialist units, and the colt sporter scope in service almost as long as the M16. both of these are 4x scopesdesigned to mount on the equipment carry handle by default. and there have been thousands of adapters to put M1913 rails on top of the carry handle since at least the mid 80's. so private joes snuffy very well might have put a 10x scope on his rifle to be "tacticool"(or just cause the only way he can qualify on the range is to cheat)

i know many soldiers who have used these optics(and really $30 for a better range card was the best investment of my career)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by bobcat

there are optics that attatch to the equipment carrying handle of an M16A2 or Car-15 variant(pre M4). the first ones that come to mind being the ACOG in service since around 1990 in specialist units, and the colt sporter scope in service almost as long as the M16. both of these are 4x scopesdesigned to mount on the equipment carry handle by default. and there have been thousands of adapters to put M1913 rails on top of the carry handle since at least the mid 80's. so private joes snuffy very well might have put a 10x scope on his rifle to be "tacticool"(or just cause the only way he can qualify on the range is to cheat)

i know many soldiers who have used these optics(and really $30 for a better range card was the best investment of my career)

I knew some guys in the Aussie Army about 15 years ago who took a small block of metal and shaped it like the mount of the AN/PVS2. On the bottom was a screw just like that used to hold the PVS2 onto the M16A1 carry handle.
The top of the metal block had been tapped to allow standard civvy ring mounts for telescopic sights to be mounted. Took them a couple of days to sort out the "how and what" and then about an hour in a workshop to make it.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Gamer

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

Uh not entirely correct.

The answer here is depends on the type of silencer.

An integrally silenced weapon, such as the aforementioned MP5SD, have holes drilled in the barrel to let out propelling gas.

The premise in those is that all ammo is reduced to subsonic speeds and the gases trapped in the can to muffle the report.

You statement is more or less correct for a can threaded to the end of an otherwise stock weapon. This also depends on if that can is designed to bleed gas and slow the bullet to under 1100 fps or not.

[Milano]

I would tend to agree with ArmySGT. There are two types of suppressors integral and not integral.

Of the integral silencers I have never heard of one that doesn't reduce the speed of the full power cartidge bullet significantly. This does not mean that the bullet is always reduced to below the speed of sound. It would take quite a suppressor to slow a 7.62x51 to this level. That is why some weapons are designed to use subsonic ammunition, ie the AI Covert.

Of the "screw on" types there are two VERY general varieties. The first has wipes that slow the speed of the bullet and capture the expanding hot gasses and release them slowly. These have to be maintained often, like every 10 shots and are very very quiet. An, example is the silencer on the old Hush Puppy pistol.

The second is the type that just captures the gasses and releases them slowly. These are what is usually seen on movies etc. They do not slow the bullet and they do not hinder accuracy. However, without subsonic ammunition, they do not work as well as other types. There isn't the crack of the bullet leaving the muzzle but there is a definate "echo" of the bullet going downrange. Check Youtube and thee are alot of examples of these. (I saw one that really showed the difference. It was a guy fiing an m14 mod with both super and sub sonic rounds. WOW.)

[B.T.]

Two additional questions concerning optics and SOPMOD parts:

In my T2k-universe a limited number of SOPMOD rifles are available, issue M4 and improvized rails on other designs. Some of my players got their hands on SOPMODs.

1) The ACOGS: In game terms I use them as "sniper scope", which only means, "Rng" is 10 or 15 m higher.

2) An interesting question was raised by one of my players: Does an additional grip underneath the barrel decrease single shot recoil?
I'd say: "No!" Allthough the rifle is a little "bigger" than a rifle without a grip, I would just decrease "Bulk" by 1 point, if a person using an additional foregrip encounters a person with the same "Initiative" value.

Comments or hints, anyone?

Would come in handy, we'll be gaming on saturday - first session with the new "toys".

[Legbreaker]

I can't speak for an additional grip on the '16, but having used the Steyr AUG I'd say it would have little to no effect. It's purely a matter of personal preference and comfort whether the grip is down or up parallel to the barrel, although it can add a slight amount of stability in the prone position (where it's able to act a little like a monopod).

All in all, I'd say in the down position it may assist with reaction times at short range, but will do little for recoil controllability - weapon just naturally points better...

[pmulcahy11b]

Having never used a weapon with a foregrip, I can't say for sure, but I'd think that it would simply make some shooters feel more comfortable. On automatic, it might have some effect, but perhaps not enough to be accounted for by the T2K rules.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Two additional questions concerning optics and SOPMOD parts:

In my T2k-universe a limited number of SOPMOD rifles are available, issue M4 and improvized rails on other designs. Some of my players got their hands on SOPMODs.

1) The ACOGS: In game terms I use them as "sniper scope", which only means, "Rng" is 10 or 15 m higher.

The ACOG sights come in different magnification power, from 1.5 up to 6 power so they do work as a telescopic sight but you will have to know specifically what magnification power the particular ACOG has.
I would suggest using the table Paul Mulcahy has for the bonus to range for using such sights http://www.pmulcahy.com/equipment/vision_devices.html

Originally Posted by B.T.

2) An interesting question was raised by one of my players: Does an additional grip underneath the barrel decrease single shot recoil?
I'd say: "No!" Allthough the rifle is a little "bigger" than a rifle without a grip, I would just decrease "Bulk" by 1 point, if a person using an additional foregrip encounters a person with the same "Initiative" value.

Comments or hints, anyone?

Would come in handy, we'll be gaming on saturday - first session with the new "toys".

I agree with Legbreaker, I think a forward grip makes the weapon more comfortable to use and only helps in some way to control recoil but not in any way that the rules can actually cover. It can even make the weapon faster to manoeuvre but again the rules don't cover that sort of thing and I think your rule for decreasing Bulk for a weapon with a foregrip when two people have the same Initiative works well to cover that.

I believe that ultimately it comes down to the weapon and also the ammunition used. For example no matter how much you held onto the forward grip on the Austeyr/AUG the weapon always pulled up and to the right when firing bursts yet the M16A2 didn't pull up as much even though we fired exactly the same ammunition through them.

[Webstral]

I had the option of using the forward pistol grip with my M4 and chose not to. I tried both options during the rare moments of down time during the train-up, and the forward pistol grip never felt natural to me. Of course, I'm an arch conservative when it comes to these sorts of things. I "grew up" using the M16A2, and my use of the M4 reflected my inherited prejudices.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I believe that ultimately it comes down to the weapon and also the ammunition used. For example no matter how much you held onto the forward grip on the Austeyr/AUG the weapon always pulled up and to the right when firing bursts yet the M16A2 didn't pull up as much even though we fired exactly the same ammunition through them.

I believe in that regard, unless I'm mistaken, it's due to the big recoil buffer and spring in the M16 (and also the M4), hence why it's rather easy to shoot.

In comparison, I heard the Steyr AUG doesn't quite have this setup, or the recoil buffer is smaller (someone please correct me here if I'm wrong!), hence recoil is slightly more of an issue. That and I hear the buttstock on the weapon isn't as comfortable to shoulder, but I'd like to hear opinions from our friends that have used the Steyr AUG before jumping to that conclusion.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I had the option of using the forward pistol grip with my M4 and chose not to. I tried both options during the rare moments of down time during the train-up, and the forward pistol grip never felt natural to me. Of course, I'm an arch conservative when it comes to these sorts of things. I "grew up" using the M16A2, and my use of the M4 reflected my inherited prejudices.

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

That could serve a useful purpose during room entries. Upon seeing the first US soldier through the doorway, the defenders might burst into laughter, thus giving the Americans a brief but welcome window of opportunity to acquire targets free from defensive fire.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Webstral

That could serve a useful purpose during room entries. Upon seeing the first US soldier through the doorway, the defenders might burst into laughter, thus giving the Americans a brief but welcome window of opportunity to acquire targets free from defensive fire.

Exactly...and who says chickens can't be effective weapons?

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

Great!

Thanks a lot, guys. Informative and entertaining postings!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

...I hear the buttstock on the weapon isn't as comfortable to shoulder, but I'd like to hear opinions from our friends that have used the Steyr AUG before jumping to that conclusion.

Personally I found the AUG a much easier weapon to carry and shoot, much better balances and generally more comfortable. It also felt a lot more solid and I was certainly more confident with it in my hands over a '16. Of course I still, and always will prefer the L1A1 SLR, or anything else in 7.62 for that matter.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Personally I found the AUG a much easier weapon to carry and shoot, much better balances and generally more comfortable. It also felt a lot more solid and I was certainly more confident with it in my hands over a '16. Of course I still, and always will prefer the L1A1 SLR, or anything else in 7.62 for that matter.

Thanks for the input Legbreaker. And I have to ask since it pertains to a story I'm writing where a fairly, er, well-endowed woman's favorite shouldered weapon is a Steyr AUG....silly as it may sound, would being "well-endowed" create any sort of problem when using a bullpup weapon due to the magazine's location? I'm going to say, it shouldn't be unless she's like Dolly Parton (which she's NOT), though her measurements are roughly 36-24-36.

[Legbreaker]

I doubt it. Doesn't take much to search online and find all sorts of photos and video of well endowed women firing rifles, machineguns and other things that go bang. Granted, most of it is more focused on semi-naked women who've never held a weapon before in their lives, but large breasts still don't seem to be a problem.
Depends also on what they're wearing. We've all heard of such things as sports bras which tend to flatten the chest. Any active woman is likely to be seeking this sort of apparel out in preference to anything more soft and lacy one would expect (dammit!).

As for a bullpup mag getting in the way, not a problem at all. Although located towards the rear of the weapon, it's still several inches from the buttplate.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Thanks for the input Legbreaker. And I have to ask since it pertains to a story I'm writing where a fairly, er, well-endowed woman's favorite shouldered weapon is a Steyr AUG....silly as it may sound, would being "well-endowed" create any sort of problem when using a bullpup weapon due to the magazine's location? I'm going to say, it shouldn't be unless she's like Dolly Parton (which she's NOT), though her measurements are roughly 36-24-36.

Yeah, Leg, tell us... when you were firing the Steyr did your boobs get in the way?

[Legbreaker]

I didn't have any back then. Now, twenty years later and as many kilos added to the waist however...I'm still somewhat of an Adonis.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yeah, Leg, tell us... when you were firing the Steyr did your boobs get in the way?

I damn near spat out my coffee laughing when I read that!

Man-Boobies!

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The M16A3 is the M16A2 with a flattop receiver, topped by a MIL-STD-1913
rail. The front sight is retained; a BUIS (Backup Iron Sight) can be attached to the receiver rail, and the BUIS for the M16A3 isn't much different from that of the M16A2 in function. Some BUISs fold, allowing the shooter to keep it on his rifle even when optics are attached. The M16A3 uses the 3-round burst setting of the M16A2.

The M16A4 is the M16A3 with full-auto capability instead of the 3-round burst setting.

One minor correction, you have the versions reversed. The A3 is fully-automatic, the A4 is limited to 3-round bursts.

http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/M16A3-A4.htm

The standard M4 is basically a shrunken M16A2. M4 handguards cannot be used on an M16 or AR15 series and vice-versa. The M4A1 is the M4 equivalent of the M16A4. I've heard of an M4A2, but I don't remember offhand what its characteristics are. A civilian version of the M4 exists (going by the same name), but it has a 16-inch barrel as opposed to the 14.5-inch barrel of a military M4.

Also, not entirely accurate. My Colt LE6920 has a 14.5" barrel from the factory. Even the newer 694- series has an available 14.5" barrel. I think it's the 6944 or 6945, I don't remember which.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Eddie

One minor correction, you have the versions reversed. The A3 is fully-automatic, the A4 is limited to 3-round bursts.

http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/M16A3-A4.htm



Also, not entirely accurate. My Colt LE6920 has a 14.5" barrel from the factory. Even the newer 694- series has an available 14.5" barrel. I think it's the 6944 or 6945, I don't remember which.

How'd you manage that? I thought anything less than 16 inches for a carbine or rifle in civilian hands was illegal, or does that vary in some states, or perhaps you have to have an additional license and fees?

Personally, I think the whole "16 inch rule" for civilian rifles is BS, but that's me.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

How'd you manage that? I thought anything less than 16 inches for a carbine or rifle in civilian hands was illegal, or does that vary in some states, or perhaps you have to have an additional license and fees?

No, I don't think it varies by state. At least, not that I know of. But there are exemptions and loopholes with the additional license and fees. For instance, mine has the restricted stamp for Military/Law Enforcement on the side. I have a Georgia Firearms License and am active duty military. Georgia has very lax gun laws where active duty military personnel are concerned. For instance, I really didn't need to get the firearms license, under Georgia law I'm allowed to carry as long as I have my military ID card.

Anyone (who can legally buy a firearm) can buy it with a $200 tax and registration with the BATFE, though, civilian or military.

My point though, was that they exist and are on the market and in civilian gun shops so could be encountered in game.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Eddie

No, I don't think it varies by state. At least, not that I know of. But there are exemptions and loopholes with the additional license and fees. For instance, mine has the restricted stamp for Military/Law Enforcement on the side. I have a Georgia Firearms License and am active duty military. Georgia has very lax gun laws where active duty military personnel are concerned. For instance, I really didn't need to get the firearms license, under Georgia law I'm allowed to carry as long as I have my military ID card.

Anyone (who can legally buy a firearm) can buy it with a $200 tax and registration with the BATFE, though, civilian or military.

My point though, was that they exist and are on the market and in civilian gun shops so could be encountered in game.

Ah, that makes much more sense, thanks.

And you'd be surprised what you'll find not so much in gun shops, but in more places that are a bit off the beaten trail, so to speak around here, or maybe not.

I still think Yamamoto said it best, "You cannot invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

[B.T.]

This whole thing makes me mad! The more you know, the more questions arise

The AN/PEQ-2 would be in service. Is it right, that it only produces an infrared beam (More precise: 2 different, but still infrared beams, one narrow, one wide!)?
That means, it could only be used during nighttime and only by operators, wearing IR-goggles.
Did some kind of LAD exist, that could switch to laser (projecting a red dot to the target) or infrared laser?

And: If the operator wears IR-goggles, would an attached ACOG interfere with proper handling of the rifle?

And some more: As far as I know, it is impossible to use IR-goggles and some kind of sniper scope at the same time, right?

Err ... Thanks in advance!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

I still think Yamamoto said it best, "You cannot invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

I like that line from the Soviet commander in Red Star, Lone Star: "The mosquitoes carry pistols."

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by B.T.

This whole thing makes me mad! The more you know, the more questions arise

The AN/PEQ-2 would be in service. Is it right, that it only produces an infrared beam (More precise: 2 different, but still infrared beams, one narrow, one wide!)?
That means, it could only be used during nighttime and only by operators, wearing IR-goggles.
Did some kind of LAD exist, that could switch to laser (projecting a red dot to the target) or infrared laser?

And: If the operator wears IR-goggles, would an attached ACOG interfere with proper handling of the rifle?

And some more: As far as I know, it is impossible to use IR-goggles and some kind of sniper scope at the same time, right?

Err ... Thanks in advance!

AN/PEQ-2 is Infra red only and you must use NVGs that can see IR to see the IR projected by the AN/PEQ-2. It has three modes Off, Beam, Flood. Flood opens up the beam with a beam splitter so that acts light an IR flashlight.

The operator wearing IR goggles and an AN/PEQ-2 won't be looking through the ACOG. Doesn't need to. If the AN/PEQ-2 is properly bore sighted to the weapon then whatever the beam is placed on that is wear the bullet will hit.

Laser pointer of death.