The location of the Pope during the Twilight War

[Targan]

Following Helbent4's excellent suggestion, here is a poll and a thread specifically to discuss the whereabouts of the Pope during the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

The Pope remained in Fascist Italy and then in Nazi German-occupied Italy, during WWII so why would he leave a [loosely] Soviet-allied Italy in WWIII? Is he scared of the Godless commies? The Nazis were not big fans of the Catholic faith/curch. Politically, Italy has often leaned to the left and, AFAIK, the papacy has never considered relocating to a more right-leaning country. Would the Soviets touch him? I doubt it. The political fallout, especially in largely Catholic South America and parts of Africa, would be too great, even in a F'ed-up T2K world. Why bother? Keep an eye on him and leave him be. If he steps out of line, orchestrate an "accident" or "illness" and lean on the college of cardinals to pick someone more acceptable as the next Pope. Come to think of it, if the Pope's inner circle caught wind of such a plot, he might try to relocate. But, I doubt that anyone but the most strong-willed and idealistic person would consider threatening his own life and position in a contest of wills with the Soviets and/or the hard-line Italian communist government. I think he'd stay put.

I'm seriously considering creating a T2K campaign centered around a group of French Foreign Legion commandos sent to Rome to kidnap the Pope and return him to French territory (or maybe neutral Switzerland).

[Adm.Lee]

I'm thinking a lot of the Vatican bureaucracy might be moved out of Rome when the nukes start flying, and if Rome is hit, they could reconstitute in southern Switzerland. John Paul II might have stayed in Rome himself to face his fate and try to help "his" city, so there might be a new Pope there.

If Rome isn't hit, then I can see him staying in the Vatican, and I doubt the Italian government-- pro-Soviet Socialist or not-- will move against him. In a war with NATO, I can't see the upside of calling into question the loyalty of millions of Italian Catholics.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Yeah right... the guy drives around in an armored car when in public.

Fat lot of good that'll do against a nuke!

I believe the pope (and majority of the catholic appratus) will stay in Rome right up until nukes start hitting the cities of the various belligerents. They may at that point head to France, but I doubt they'd stay long since there's certainly a number of viable targets there too (even if they are supposed to be neutral).
My guess is they may go to Spain, or even further afield, perhaps even Australia or one of the more stable regions of Central America.

The key to it is, in my opinion, communications. The Pope and his team need effective communications throughout the world to keep the church together and functioning on more than a local level. If they stay anywhere in Europe, those communications will be minimal at best - possibly limited to carrier pigeons and messengers. It's the same issue as faces Milgov and Civgov - if you can communicate, you can control.

[pmulcahy11b]

How about guarded by the Folgore Brigade or San Marcos Marines in an undisclosed location?

EDIT: to make it more Machiavellian, the Folgore Brigade or San Marcos Marines have made a deal with the French, and they are in France.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm seriously considering creating a T2K campaign centered around a group of French Foreign Legion commandos sent to Rome to kidnap the Pope and return him to French territory (or maybe neutral Switzerland).

I like the idea of an adventure featuring the Pope as the MacGuffin. Or the actual object. Whatever. Since JP2 was Polish, he might even be a good stand-in for the Black Madonna icon. It would be easy enough to hand-wave that his holiness was touring Silesia at a critical point near the outbreak of hostilities and has been holed up ever since in or around a place like the Jasna Gora with an ever dwindling sized squad of Swiss Guard. It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

[dragoon500ly]

I can see the Pope staying in Rome until the nukes start flying and then reloacting to one of his castles in Central/South Italy. IF it became necessary for him to be evactuated out of Italy, Switzerland or Brazil would be likely locations.

[Rainbow Six]

My guess is stay in the Vatican until the nukes start flying around in Europe in mid Summer 1997, at which point the Pontiff and other senior members of the church's hierarchy relocate to Switzerland.

iirc Italy was a prime target for the second nuclear exchange in 1998, so it is possible such a relocation could have taken place sometime in 1998 rather than 1997.

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I like the idea of an adventure featuring the Pope as the MacGuffin. Or the actual object. Whatever. Since JP2 was Polish, he might even be a good stand-in for the Black Madonna icon. It would be easy enough to hand-wave that his holiness was touring Silesia at a critical point near the outbreak of hostilities and has been holed up ever since in or around a place like the Jasna Gora with an ever dwindling sized squad of Swiss Guard. It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

Years ago someone (sorry, I have no idea who) suggested an adventure scenario set in Poland where the PC's encounter a Roman Catholic Cardinal and a small group of Swiss Guards. They had a couple of trucks and were fanatical about protecting the contents of said trucks. The idea was that John Paul II had sought sanctuary in another country where he had died of natural causes. Prior to his death he had made it known that he wished to be buried in Poland and this group were attempting to fulfill that wish, with one of the trucks containing the Pope's body.

[Rainbow Six]

For those who take Challenge magazines as canon, Challenge #42 is the issue that has an article on Italy in 2300AD. The article makes various references to the Twilight War it seems very likely that Rome was nuked

from pg 25

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

And from the same article

Pg 26

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

[kato13]

Just curious who wrote the article?

Edit
Found it in my archives. Mark Galoetti wrote it. I was hoping it might be one of the core T2k writers.

Generally I consider Challenge Canon, but not 2300AD

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

For those who take Challenge magazines as canon, Challenge #42 is the issue that has an article on Italy in 2300AD. The article makes various references to the Twilight War it seems very likely that Rome was nuked

from pg 25

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

And from the same article

Pg 26

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

Thanks for the info RB6, I'd forgotten about the contents of that article. I take Challenge Mag articles and T:2300 to be canon (unless I have very good reason to do otherwise). I'm thinking that in light of that article I should have added a fifth poll option (relocates to another site in Italy) which in hindsight I would have voted for.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

Yes! A Jewel of the Nile reference! Hat's off to you, my friend.

I wonder if the Vatican has a bomb/fallout shelter. My guess would be that it does but I'm not sure how one would find out for sure.

Paul, I like your idea of involving Christain millenialists in a Pope-related scenario. Snake, I like your idea of substituting the Pope for the Black Madonna- that would make running an adventure easier since most of the work has already been done. It would also freshen up the BM module a bit for those who are already familiar with it. On the other hand, I'm kind of attracted to the idea of setting up a scenario in a new locale like Italy. I love the Poland modules but, in some ways, I'm kind of tired of the same old players. Setting the game in Italy would bring some new scenery and some new factions to the table.

[Canadian Army]

I think he would be Catholic University of Portugal; if he need to some where; and he would be guarded by the Corps of the Pontifical Swiss Guard or Swiss Guard.

[Dog 6]

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

[Legbreaker]

If JPII was dead, and it occured during or after the nukes, then it's very likely there could be multiple claimants to the title. It's also possible that the individual claimants and their associated group could be unaware of others in existance.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

But if JPII is killed in the fighting, what are the chances you'll get a conclave together in the near future? Especially if the Vatican is destroyed and travel is impossible?

[Targan]

There were still Popes elected even during the worst of times during the Middle Ages. I agree that there may well end up being multiple Popes all vying for legitimacy but I doubt there would be no Pope at all for very long.

[Rainbow Six]

I agree with Targan and Leg - Regardless of whether a conclave can be formed or not, there will probably be several people claiming the title of Pope, with varying degrees of legitimacy.