The location of the Pope during the Twilight War

[Targan]

Following Helbent4's excellent suggestion, here is a poll and a thread specifically to discuss the whereabouts of the Pope during the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

The Pope remained in Fascist Italy and then in Nazi German-occupied Italy, during WWII so why would he leave a [loosely] Soviet-allied Italy in WWIII? Is he scared of the Godless commies? The Nazis were not big fans of the Catholic faith/curch. Politically, Italy has often leaned to the left and, AFAIK, the papacy has never considered relocating to a more right-leaning country. Would the Soviets touch him? I doubt it. The political fallout, especially in largely Catholic South America and parts of Africa, would be too great, even in a F'ed-up T2K world. Why bother? Keep an eye on him and leave him be. If he steps out of line, orchestrate an "accident" or "illness" and lean on the college of cardinals to pick someone more acceptable as the next Pope. Come to think of it, if the Pope's inner circle caught wind of such a plot, he might try to relocate. But, I doubt that anyone but the most strong-willed and idealistic person would consider threatening his own life and position in a contest of wills with the Soviets and/or the hard-line Italian communist government. I think he'd stay put.

I'm seriously considering creating a T2K campaign centered around a group of French Foreign Legion commandos sent to Rome to kidnap the Pope and return him to French territory (or maybe neutral Switzerland).

[Adm.Lee]

I'm thinking a lot of the Vatican bureaucracy might be moved out of Rome when the nukes start flying, and if Rome is hit, they could reconstitute in southern Switzerland. John Paul II might have stayed in Rome himself to face his fate and try to help "his" city, so there might be a new Pope there.

If Rome isn't hit, then I can see him staying in the Vatican, and I doubt the Italian government-- pro-Soviet Socialist or not-- will move against him. In a war with NATO, I can't see the upside of calling into question the loyalty of millions of Italian Catholics.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Yeah right... the guy drives around in an armored car when in public.

Fat lot of good that'll do against a nuke!

I believe the pope (and majority of the catholic appratus) will stay in Rome right up until nukes start hitting the cities of the various belligerents. They may at that point head to France, but I doubt they'd stay long since there's certainly a number of viable targets there too (even if they are supposed to be neutral).
My guess is they may go to Spain, or even further afield, perhaps even Australia or one of the more stable regions of Central America.

The key to it is, in my opinion, communications. The Pope and his team need effective communications throughout the world to keep the church together and functioning on more than a local level. If they stay anywhere in Europe, those communications will be minimal at best - possibly limited to carrier pigeons and messengers. It's the same issue as faces Milgov and Civgov - if you can communicate, you can control.

[pmulcahy11b]

How about guarded by the Folgore Brigade or San Marcos Marines in an undisclosed location?

EDIT: to make it more Machiavellian, the Folgore Brigade or San Marcos Marines have made a deal with the French, and they are in France.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm seriously considering creating a T2K campaign centered around a group of French Foreign Legion commandos sent to Rome to kidnap the Pope and return him to French territory (or maybe neutral Switzerland).

I like the idea of an adventure featuring the Pope as the MacGuffin. Or the actual object. Whatever. Since JP2 was Polish, he might even be a good stand-in for the Black Madonna icon. It would be easy enough to hand-wave that his holiness was touring Silesia at a critical point near the outbreak of hostilities and has been holed up ever since in or around a place like the Jasna Gora with an ever dwindling sized squad of Swiss Guard. It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

[dragoon500ly]

I can see the Pope staying in Rome until the nukes start flying and then reloacting to one of his castles in Central/South Italy. IF it became necessary for him to be evactuated out of Italy, Switzerland or Brazil would be likely locations.

[Canadian Army]

I think he would be Catholic University of Portugal; if he need to some where; and he would be guarded by the Corps of the Pontifical Swiss Guard or Swiss Guard.

[Rainbow Six]

My guess is stay in the Vatican until the nukes start flying around in Europe in mid Summer 1997, at which point the Pontiff and other senior members of the church's hierarchy relocate to Switzerland.

iirc Italy was a prime target for the second nuclear exchange in 1998, so it is possible such a relocation could have taken place sometime in 1998 rather than 1997.

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I like the idea of an adventure featuring the Pope as the MacGuffin. Or the actual object. Whatever. Since JP2 was Polish, he might even be a good stand-in for the Black Madonna icon. It would be easy enough to hand-wave that his holiness was touring Silesia at a critical point near the outbreak of hostilities and has been holed up ever since in or around a place like the Jasna Gora with an ever dwindling sized squad of Swiss Guard. It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

Years ago someone (sorry, I have no idea who) suggested an adventure scenario set in Poland where the PC's encounter a Roman Catholic Cardinal and a small group of Swiss Guards. They had a couple of trucks and were fanatical about protecting the contents of said trucks. The idea was that John Paul II had sought sanctuary in another country where he had died of natural causes. Prior to his death he had made it known that he wished to be buried in Poland and this group were attempting to fulfill that wish, with one of the trucks containing the Pope's body.

[Rainbow Six]

For those who take Challenge magazines as canon, Challenge #42 is the issue that has an article on Italy in 2300AD. The article makes various references to the Twilight War it seems very likely that Rome was nuked

from pg 25

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

And from the same article

Pg 26

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

[kato13]

Just curious who wrote the article?

Edit
Found it in my archives. Mark Galoetti wrote it. I was hoping it might be one of the core T2k writers.

Generally I consider Challenge Canon, but not 2300AD

[Slappy]

I went with France, but not necessarily voluntarily.

By '99 or '00 the security situation is going to get increasingly bad in Italy and quickly. I can see him looking to relocate. France isn't a bad choice. They have a catholic history, a big military, the ability to put him up in style and a decent communication network to use. I'm sure they would make the case to him. If he refused, maybe a little persuasion might be in order.

I'm actually now loving the idea of a mini-campaign based around a french diplomatic / commando team sent to secure the pope and return him and a few key (sympathetic to their cause) staff safely to France, whether he likes it or not.

[Legbreaker]

Although I see the attraction of Switzerland as a destination, I don't think it would be wise during a nuclear war.
The country is surrounded by beligerants, many of which have nukes and all of which certainly have plenty of targets, both hit and ignored (to date).
If the EMP doesn't completely screw up the communications the church relies upon, the radioative fallout is going to cause serious issues with the health of the generally older (and frailer) members of the church. As these older members are also form the upper "ranks", chances are that by late 1998 there's not going to be anyone left in positions of significant influence.
Food supplies are another issue that needs close scrutiny. Although we know in canon there was no nuclear winter as such, before, and even during the exchanges this concept would have preyed heavily on everyones minds. Locating an important organisation in an area that does not have a guarenteed food supply in such an event is, well, a blunder of the largest order.
Fuel, specifically for heating in winter is another factor to take into account. This particular issue is one that will cause tens, even hundreds of thousands of deaths throughout the continent. I beleive that (in recent times anyway) a lot of natural gas is pumped from the Soviet states to the west. Even here in Australia it's been almost front pages news when somewhere like the Ukraine cuts supply for political reasons (usually an arguement with Moscow) - a lot of people rely on the gas to prevent freezing to death and use in their kitchens.
This gas is certainly not still being pumped after December 1996, just in time for Christmas. Those who die from exposure at this time might be considered the lucky ones though considering what was to come over the next few years.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

Yes! A Jewel of the Nile reference! Hat's off to you, my friend.

I wonder if the Vatican has a bomb/fallout shelter. My guess would be that it does but I'm not sure how one would find out for sure.

Paul, I like your idea of involving Christain millenialists in a Pope-related scenario. Snake, I like your idea of substituting the Pope for the Black Madonna- that would make running an adventure easier since most of the work has already been done. It would also freshen up the BM module a bit for those who are already familiar with it. On the other hand, I'm kind of attracted to the idea of setting up a scenario in a new locale like Italy. I love the Poland modules but, in some ways, I'm kind of tired of the same old players. Setting the game in Italy would bring some new scenery and some new factions to the table.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

For those who take Challenge magazines as canon, Challenge #42 is the issue that has an article on Italy in 2300AD. The article makes various references to the Twilight War it seems very likely that Rome was nuked

from pg 25

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

And from the same article

Pg 26

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

Thanks for the info RB6, I'd forgotten about the contents of that article. I take Challenge Mag articles and T:2300 to be canon (unless I have very good reason to do otherwise). I'm thinking that in light of that article I should have added a fifth poll option (relocates to another site in Italy) which in hindsight I would have voted for.

[B.T.]

I have not voted, yet.

If JP II. is the pope in the Twilight war, we should take in account, that he was the Pope, that travelled the most. In Wikipedia is an article on his travels.
Some of these travels might not have the same destination as IRL! In the later half of the 90ies the Pope visited severals states in the former Eastern Bloc - I don't think this had happened in T2k. But he would have been travelling to other States/countries.
Depending on his location (Choose your destination of the Popes "tour"!) he might stay at that place, when things get dense in Europe - Brazil is not unlikely (Dragoon mentioned Brazil before!).
If the Pope is in Europe, I can imagine, he'd like to stay in Rome, but leaves for an uncertain ammount of time to get back there, if the situation is more stable.

I think, France is not a bad destination - there had been Popes residing in Avignon (I don't remember who said in in the "People of Poland"-threat, but although some of the anti-Popes spent their time in Avignon, there had also been "official" Popes in Avignon!).
Switzerland is an option, another place in Italy is another one.
Still another country come to my mind: Ireland! It has a catholic population and it is not that likely as an aim for nukes!
If the Pope sees his new residence as a place of a temporary exile, he could stay allmost anywhere!

The idea of a SpecFor team trying to capture the Pope is a nice one. Maybe I'll have a try on this, too.

Edit: It was "Adm. Lee" in No. 35 of the "People of Poland" who mentioned Avignon as being not likely. Just in case someone was asking!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I wonder if the Vatican has a bomb/fallout shelter. My guess would be that it does but I'm not sure how one would find out for sure.

Apparently it does (I googled it...)

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/22/wo...r-library.html

Originally Posted by Targan

I'm thinking that in light of that article I should have added a fifth poll option (relocates to another site in Italy) which in hindsight I would have voted for.

It simply never occured to me as an option until I read the article again yesterday, but in hindsight, I, too, might have opted for it.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Although I see the attraction of Switzerland as a destination, I don't think it would be wise during a nuclear war...

Leg, you make valid points. Whilst I opted for Switzerland in the poll, I do think it's possible that the Papal party might move to Switzerland (or elsewhere in Italy) as a short term move in the summer of 1997 when the nukes start flying and then move on sometime in 1998 to another location where they could stay for a longer term (basically the duration of the War plus a period afterwards).

I think main contenders for this long term location would be either France or Spain. I did think about Brazil, but there's a lot of petrochem industry in Brazil, so I think it would be high on the list of neutral nations to be targetted. Another possibility might be Argentina. I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall Brazil and Argentina go to war with each other at some point, so that might also have a bearing on the matter - why leave Switzerland for Argentina if Argentina is now a war zone? On the other hand, the Pope might have arrived there before that war broke out.

[Slappy]

Doing a little poking around and thinking on this this morning.

It's also not clear how long JPII would have lived in T2k. IRL he lived to 2005, but apparently he began suffering from Parkinsons Disease as early as 1991. I'm sure that the pontiff would have had the best care available in '97-'99, but I don't know that it would have been enough in its degraded state to keep an increasingly frail man in his late 70s alive.

Points to the interesting mission mentioned by Rainbow Six to bury the pope, or the intrigue surrounding the election of a new pope after the death of JPII. The intrigue in the College of Cardinals would probably make the efforts to reconstitute the US Congress look like a tea party. Possible mission here with the players helping to support or thwart one of the candidates, either with violence or by retrieving some item, document or witness to swing the decision.

My guess is the the death would actually lead to the election of several popes. The French would be mad to not have one, there would be someone in Rome claiming the title, likely one or two elsewhere in Italy/Switzerland and possibly Brazil. Anywhere you can get 3-4 cardinals together you can have an election of some sort. AlsosSeems that any Bishop with a former papal estate and 100 guys with guns who say he's the Pope has at least a passing claim to the title, at least locally.

[WallShadow]

I entertained the idea that his Holiness had been on a goodwill tour in the US when the European theatre went nuclear. The papal aircraft and a body double returned to Rome; however, the Pope's advisors had actually convinced him to stay put in the US, outside most likely target areas. He chose to set up a low-key anonymous residence at the National Shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa in Doylestown, PA. It's located far enough from Philly and the Delaware River targets to have survived intact. Dressed as regular clergy, he helped the shrine staff organize and operate an enclave to shelter, feed, and medically treat the refugees.

Surprisingly, the enclave has had virtually no problems with raiders or marauders thus far. Then, the Swiss Guard are being assisted by assigned bodyguards from State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security and the odd Catholic member of the SEALs/Delta Force/etc. They patrol and overwatch a large radius from the refuge. Lots of things can blow up, breakdown, or perhaps die in their sleep far enough away and in such a convincing manner to redirect the potential attackers, helping to dissuade such riff-raff from coming too close.

(Wild rumors filter out about miraculous cures by a holy monk, and holy apparitions delivering holy vengeance against ill-intentioned interlopers.)

[Raellus]

I like your creativity WallShadow but I wonder if the Pope wouldn't stay closer to home during a potentially global crisis like the full-scale Soviet invasion of China. It seems an almost inappropriate time to leave the Vatican and go on a goodwill tour of the U.S.

On the other hand, perhaps his trip was diplomatic. I'm not sure what his goal would be, though.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I like your creativity WallShadow but I wonder if the Pope wouldn't stay closer to home during a potentially global crisis like the full-scale Soviet invasion of China. It seems an almost inappropriate time to leave the Vatican and go on a goodwill tour of the U.S.

On the other hand, perhaps his trip was diplomatic. I'm not sure what his goal would be, though.

I agree with many of the posters here that PROBABLY JPII is the Pope, he would PROBABLY stay close to the Vatican, and the Swiss Guard would have a FAST jet ready to take His Holiness OUT OF TOWN if circumstances dictated it. (Anything I have read about the Swiss Guard, they are SWORN to die defending the Pope. But these are pragmatic men. If it looked to the Commander of the Swiss Guard that Rome was going to take a nuke in the shorts, JPII would be GONE....NOW!!!!!)

A visit to the USA would not be JPII's style, IMHO. THe man he portrayed on the world stage was a caring but very doctrinal parrish priest. If Europe is going up in flames, a Polish Pope would not leave HIS people.

(CHA-CHING)

And that's my two cents worth.

Mike

[kato13]

For what it is worth in the real world the Pope was traveling outside of Italy for about 40 days in 1997 (adding a bit to the list below to account for travel time). However 11 days of that was in Poland which probably would not happen in in any T2k time-line.

http://www.travelnotes.org/travel-wr...paul/97-98.htm


Edit
Also I can edit polls so I added "Relocates within Italy". If you want to change your existing answer to that, just post a note with what your previous selection was (so I can shift the numbers around).

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by kato13

For what it is worth in the real world the Pope was traveling outside of Italy for about 40 days in 1997 (adding a bit to the list below to account for travel time). However 11 days of that was in Poland which probably would not happen in in any T2k time-line.

http://www.travelnotes.org/travel-wr...paul/97-98.htm

Actually Kato, I think John Paul II would have gone into Poland in an attempt to promote peace, and get Polish support for getting in the way of a communist victory and independence for his people. He was a very amazing man of principles. I have a feeling in the world of T2k with the Soviet Union and collapse of Communism happening, JPII would have fought to remain healthy and vibrant so he could remain as a bedrock against communism. Many felt that his declining health came from his feeling that he was finally ABLE to stop fighting, to stop standing up against such a major threat to world peace and liberty.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Actually Kato, I think John Paul II would have gone into Poland in an attempt to promote peace, and get Polish support for getting in the way of a communist victory and independence for his people. He was a very amazing man of principles. I have a feeling in the world of T2k with the Soviet Union and collapse of Communism happening, JPII would have fought to remain healthy and vibrant so he could remain as a bedrock against communism. Many felt that his declining health came from his feeling that he was finally ABLE to stop fighting, to stop standing up against such a major threat to world peace and liberty.

I see your points, but I cannot see him being allowed to go into an active (and probably the highest intensity ever) war zone. What if a NATO (Or god forbid German) unit accidentally kills him. I can see him fighting communism in his own way with speeches or emissaries, but at this point he is the leader of the entire Catholic Church not just Europe, so I could see those around him convincing him that he has to stay out of harms way.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by kato13

I see your points, but I cannot see him being allowed to go into an active (and probably the highest intensity ever) war zone. What if a NATO (Or god forbid German) unit accidentally kills him. I can see him fighting communism in his own way with speeches or emissaries, but at this point he is the leader of the entire Catholic Church not just Europe, so I could see those around him convincing him that he has to stay out of harms way.

Very true points... But knowing JPII, he'd go into the areas that are in NATO Hands with an armed escort of the Swiss Guard (thus providing a way that he'd not get accidentally killed by either side). JPII was a very... well, headstrong man. Even if not going into Poland he could have gone into East Germany on the Polish-E.German border speaking at rallies and the like.

Hell, this would actually work good for an adventure. That when the nukes started flying he was doing his tour and was hustled away for his safety. BUT NO ONE KNOWS WHERE he was hustled too. Only the Swiss Guard who got him to safety knows exactly where he is.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

Also I can edit polls so I added "Relocates within Italy". If you want to change your existing answer to that, just post a note with what your previous selection was (so I can shift the numbers around).

Thanks Kato, please change my vote to "Relocates within Italy". While I'm not a total slave to canon, and T:2300 is fairly "loose canon" anyway (see what I did there LOL), the contention in Challenge #42 page 26 that Perugia became the new Papal City seems reasonable to me.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And whether we like it or not, Twilight: 2000 did actually grow from 2300 so it's not unreasonable to assume that they can both take a little something from each other to make them more compatible with each other.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that the situation in 2300 should be considered canon. There's roughly 300 years of history between the two, much of which is written by the victor (whoever they may be), which leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take? At the shorter end that doesn't leave a lot of reaction time to get the Pope the hell out of the Vatican. Estimate 5-10 minutes from receiving the warning to having him on a helicopter bound for the airport. Add in a few more minutes if alls going well for flight time, then say five more minutes to swap over to a fixed wing and be in the air - and that's JUST in the air, not actually having cleared the area as yet. So, 20 minutes has passed already (on a good day).

Now, how many missiles are going to be detected at the moment of launch? Shall we add in a bit more time to consider confirmation of the launch? Time is getting a bit tight now...

That 30-60 minutes mentioned above is ICBM flight time. A launch from say Czechoslovakia against Rome (if it's the Soviets setting up NATO for the fall (or a quick jaunt across the Alps from southern Germany is going to be a LOT faster.

Bearing that in mind, once nukes start being used away from the front lines, the Pope would be MAD to stay put.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take?

IIRC, the launch of an SLBM (submarine-launched ballistic missile) from a boomer to impact is only 3-8 minutes.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take? At the shorter end that doesn't leave a lot of reaction time to get the Pope the hell out of the Vatican. Estimate 5-10 minutes from receiving the warning to having him on a helicopter bound for the airport. Add in a few more minutes if alls going well for flight time, then say five more minutes to swap over to a fixed wing and be in the air - and that's JUST in the air, not actually having cleared the area as yet. So, 20 minutes has passed already (on a good day).

Now, how many missiles are going to be detected at the moment of launch? Shall we add in a bit more time to consider confirmation of the launch? Time is getting a bit tight now...

That 30-60 minutes mentioned above is ICBM flight time. A launch from say Czechoslovakia against Rome (if it's the Soviets setting up NATO for the fall (or a quick jaunt across the Alps from southern Germany is going to be a LOT faster.

Bearing that in mind, once nukes start being used away from the front lines, the Pope would be MAD to stay put.

Very true.. It would be better for the Pope to be evacuated from the Vatican via helicopter instead of jet. They'd be able to fly the helio OUT of the blast area in time. Thus the relocation of the Pope to somewhere in the Italian Republic or the Swiss Confederation works good.

Though I have a feeling that the Vatican had a retreat/BOL (Bug-Out Location) that they'd get the Pope and Cardinals too at the first sign of something going down. I read somewhere that the Vatican has a subterranean rail system they use for mail... perhaps they used the construction of that to cover the construction of a high-speed means of getting the Pope and others out of the Vatican ASAP.

Thanks to the link we were given earlier, we know that in 1982 a bomb shelter was built in the Vatican... And considering the priceless nature of the things being stored and protected there, we can surmise that it would take a direct hit to destroy it.