Poland After OMEGA

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six;30400
Tony, original theory was that after an agreed time assisting to stabilise the situation in the UK, the final part of the deal would be HMG providing transport to the US [I

and[/I] Canada for any member of XI Corps who wished to go home. That said, I don't doubt HMG will offer all sorts of incentives to any individuals who choose voluntarily to stay in Britain, but ultimately anyone who wants to go home would be able to do so.

You raise a valid point about the Anglo German Brigade - perhaps once the Canadian contingent of XI Corps is home, the Canadians might be able to look at ways of getting those troops back to the UK, possibly using the same ships that brought XI Corps to North America.

Dave,

Fair enough, a certain amount of soldiers are going to want to stay either in Canada or the UK, especially of they've started families or otherwise decide it's better where they are. Being trained experienced soldiers, it would be advantageous and easy to fit them into either service (CF or the British Army) as has been a long-standing tradition. I just wanted to emphasise that such efforts would have to stop short of offering too many incentives or be seen as playing hardball to avoid any appearance of impropriety between friends and allies.

Tony

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by helbent4

I just wanted to emphasise that such efforts would have to stop short of offering too many incentives or be seen as playing hardball to avoid any appearance of impropriety between friends and allies.

Tony,

Good point. I think we may be in general agreement here. When it comes to incentives, I think any efforts would be done subtly, and where possible deniably; I don't forsee HMG setting up "recruiting booths" to try and encourage US or Canadian troops to stay en masse. As you say, when it comes to staying behind the obvious candidates would be individual troops who have "bonded" with the locals (got themselves a British wife or girlfriend, started a family, etc).

Dave

[Abbott Shaull]

Well one of the things is look at the start points at the beginning, both UK Corps were holding line well south of the jump off point for the 3rd German Army.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Per the Survivor's Guide to the UK, the first two Divisions to come home (2nd and 5th) left Bremerhaven for England some time in December 2000.

Shhhh! I was hoping nobody would actually check! (I neglected to)
Even though those units left after the bulk of US forces, it was only a few thousand men and occured once the US equipment had been handed over to German units. It's also very likely that it was becoming more and more apparent no further Pact offensive would be forthcoming, at least in the next year and certainly not over winter.

[helbent4]

Group,

Regarding the Canadian contingent of XI Corps, it looks like even if the US units did stay, most of 4CMB made it home by November 2000. So it's mostly moot, if you're using canon sources. (Not everyone does, and there's a lot wrong of goofy with canon, of course!)


July 2000:

1/22e Karlino, Poland
2/22e Karlino, Poland
1/BCR Karlino, Poland
1/CAR Karlino, Poland

According to Challenge #30 (Canada: 2000 by Legion G. McRae)

November 2000:

1/22e New Glasgow, NS
2/22e St. John's, NFLD
1/BCR Gaspé, Que
1/CAR Gaspé, Que

In the NATO vehicle guide, the above units were in "winter cantonments" as of "July 2000". By 2001, many (if not all) CF units were back in Canada, and all of 4MB was assigned to Maritime command. So it's possible that even of the American units stayed put, the 4th Canadian Mech Brigade successfully made a run for Bremerhaven and were transported back home as a part of OP OMEGA.

I'm aware that not everyone makes full use of canon (including me) in all circumstances, and the above information is all v1 (and in Challenge, to boot). I thought I would post the following to clarify the "official" story on these units.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Challenge, while excellent, isn't always absolutely 100% correct and realistic (although it should be!) given that it's written by fans on the whole. Take some of the weapon stats presented for example...
Are there any indications the Canadians still had heavy equipment after returning home? Could they have evacuated by small boat in time to catch TF35, leaving their heavy gear with XI Corp?
This is the only practical and logical way they could have made it out.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Challenge, while excellent, isn't always absolutely 100% correct and realistic (although it should be!) given that it's written by fans on the whole. Take some of the weapon stats presented for example...
Are there any indications the Canadians still had heavy equipment after returning home? Could they have evacuated by small boat in time to catch TF35, leaving their heavy gear with XI Corp?
This is the only practical and logical way they could have made it out.

Leg,

Yeah, I'm about 80% with the Challenge articles on Canada and other areas. The author of those articles, Legion McRae, shows up every once in a while at the local miniatures wargaming club.

1/British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own, aka "the Dukes") is listed as having 3 AFVs, although these could of course be anything. Their strength in Poland isn't stated so it's impossible to correlate exactly. It does, however, make sense that a smaller unit of non-Americans would break from XI Corps and make the trip via small craft than go by land.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

By small craft it's doable given the available port facilities. Any vehicles they may have once back in Canada could be local acquisitions, possibly captured from Quebec units they encounted shortly after landing. They could even be lightly armoured scout cars of some type, "liberated" from a private collection.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Shhhh! I was hoping nobody would actually check! (I neglected to)
Even though those units left after the bulk of US forces, it was only a few thousand men and occured once the US equipment had been handed over to German units. It's also very likely that it was becoming more and more apparent no further Pact offensive would be forthcoming, at least in the next year and certainly not over winter.

LOL...sorry mate...

To be fair, I can see why you reached that conclusion - whilst it doesn't make any definitive statements, istr Going Home does suggest that any UK evacuation isn't likely to take place until sometime in 2001. Perhaps Omega serves as a catalyst for HMG to decide to stage its own evacuation. As to why only a portion of the BAOR is brought home, perhaps there was a political dimension to it, with an agreement reached between the British and German Governments that some troops will stay, or perhaps it's as simple as there was only enough shipping / fuel available to bring home two Divisions in one lift.

At the risk of debunking my own theory, it does seem like the earlier the remainder of the BAOR pulls out the much less likely it is that XI Corps would be able to make it to Bremerhaven to join them.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

As to why only a portion of the BAOR is brought home, perhaps there was a political dimension to it, with an agreement reached between the British and German Governments that some troops will stay, or perhaps it's as simple as there was only enough shipping / fuel available to bring home two Divisions in one lift.

The second one is the correct one.

It's because the British were not willing to give up their armour and heavy equipment like the Americans. Shipping limitations meant they couldn't make just one crossing.

[Legbreaker]

Agreed. Even though 2000 Divisions are much smaller than a couple of years before, there's a corresponding, or even greater reduction in available shipping due to the war. While it's conceivable the British may have been able to shift their manpower in one go, they'd have been insane to give up their hardware.

Unlike the Americans, who almost the moment they land back in the US disband the bulk of their military (those on Omega anyway), the British appear to be focused sqaurely on using their troops at home to retake the country and begin rebuilding.

[Abbott Shaull]

That is one thing that I never figured out why the US would go through the trouble to move the troops back home and then almost as fast disband the influx of troops. Instead of putting them to good use.

It was the one thing that always bothered me about the timing of Operation Omega. I think it would of been better to have waited until spring before pulling both US and UK forces off the line in attempts to send them home.

Especially since the US is still in the middle of fighting off the Mexican invasion.

[Fusilier]

I'd say it was simply gaming decision and nothing more. It's not Twilight2000 with large numbers of big units hanging around the usual gaming locales. Disbanding them leaves more of Europe and the eastern US open for greater gaming freedom.