Storing Food in T2K

[Mohoender]

I got that idea from the thread on Cuisine. We are all concerned about what to eat but what about storing it. With electrical power gone, you can forget about fridge.

Here are some methods I can think of:

- Salting or smoking would be the first one but that is working only for fish and meat.

- For the fruits you can make Jam, plunge them in alcohol or dry them.

- You can use canned food but finding the right container might quickly be a problem.

- For some fruits such as apple, you can store them in specific type of buildings (that's fairly simple) under proper conditions (that's also true for potatoes).

- Another interesting thing (providing that the weather gets colder) would be to build an ice well. A well (15-20 meters deep) that you slowly fill with water during winter. Then, you'll have ice during the warm period.

Of course, you also have to protect your storage from all type of scavangers (small animals, insects, humans...)

Do you have any more ideas or do you know any other method?

[Rupert Willies]

Depending on where you live, the water could still be cold during summer. If you live by a mountain a river coming from it could be cold enough to chill your brew, even during august.
A deep lake can be very cold at the bottom. If you really need to keep something cold, you could lower it to the bottom, and keep it there for long periods of time. It would just take some extra time to retrieve it.

"Hey, surprise guests! Just give me an hour, and I'll get you folks some chilled pate from my lake-storage"

If you have sun, you can also utilize evaporation to cool a container.

[Earthpig]

before refrigeration they cut ice off lakes moved them to Ice sheds storing them buried in sawdust which kept them available most of the year.....I have found ice, in July, under gravel that had been dug out the winter before.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rupert Willies

Depending on where you live, the water could still be cold during summer. If you live by a mountain a river coming from it could be cold enough to chill your brew, even during august.

In the winter, it's even easier -- we had a lot of snow days in Kansas, and one week when we had a blizzard and the power was out, we just stored the cold drinks and frozen foods outside the back door against the wall and piled snow on top of it. In no time it was six feet under snow, and it kept quite well until the power came back. It probably could have lasted months had the blizzard gone on.

[Earthpig]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

In the winter, it's even easier -- we had a lot of snow days in Kansas, and one week when we had a blizzard and the power was out, we just stored the cold drinks and frozen foods outside the back door against the wall and piled snow on top of it. In no time it was six feet under snow, and it kept quite well until the power came back. It probably could have lasted months had the blizzard gone on.

Be careful if it get's too cold...I stored some diet coke(probably why it happened) out on the porch...one day, while sitting at home watching TV, I heard some loud popping noises, by the time I figured it out ....my 2 cases of pop were mostly exploded on the door

[Rupert Willies]

Same thing happened to me a month back; two six packs of beer exploded on my veranda. Observed a bottle cap on the roof later.

Originally Posted by Earthpig

Be careful if it get's too cold...I stored some diet coke(probably why it happened) out on the porch...one day, while sitting at home watching TV, I heard some loud popping noises, by the time I figured it out ....my 2 cases of pop were mostly exploded on the door

[Targan]

Here in Australia before there was electricity in all houses there were three methods that were popular for keeping food cool in the absence of a fridge - ice boxes (the ice man would come around with a cart and deliver blocks of ice daily), Coolgardie safes (a primative fridge that used evaporation via water trickling over pieces of cloth) and kerosene-powered friges.

[firewalker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

we had a lot of snow days in Kansas, and one week when we had a blizzard and the power was out, we just stored the cold drinks and frozen foods outside the back door against the wall and piled snow on top of it. \.

we trid that to last big snow/outeg we had worked real good......the dog proved problmatic though.

[jester]

I am shocked shocked and amazed!

You guys haven't mentioned Freeze Drying or Sun Drying. Or regular deydrated methods. I mean they are considered top of the line camping foods today, and one of the oldest methods there is.

Also, JERKING ala Beef Jerky and Pemican

I mean look at what we use today?

Instant potatoes
Rasins
Craisons
Fruit rolls
Dried Fruit
Trail Mix

Those are just a few examples. And one sundried is good for sunny climes, freeze drying for cold climes. And the only thing needed is to prepare the items for drying, and then protect them from insects and vermin so they can dry in the sun and wind.

[TiggerCCW UK]

What would you need to do to prepare food for drying? Its an area I'm completely ignorant of, but it could provide an easyish means of preserving large amounts of food without having to use additional resources, I think. What about smoking meats and fish as well? There's a museum near here that has and old smoke house at it and again I think its a fairly easy way of preserving food.

[pmulcahy11b]

Even in the Paleolithic Middle East and East Africa, lots of food was stored and kept fresh by simply digging pits and lining them with clay. (Granted, the climate in the Middle East and Africa was much more mild back then, but in East Africa back then you still had a semidesert.)

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I got that idea from the thread on Cuisine. We are all concerned about what to eat but what about storing it. With electrical power gone, you can forget about fridge.

Here are some methods I can think of:

- Salting or smoking would be the first one but that is working only for fish and meat.

- For the fruits you can make Jam, plunge them in alcohol or dry them.

- You can use canned food but finding the right container might quickly be a problem.

- For some fruits such as apple, you can store them in specific type of buildings (that's fairly simple) under proper conditions (that's also true for potatoes).

- Another interesting thing (providing that the weather gets colder) would be to build an ice well. A well (15-20 meters deep) that you slowly fill with water during winter. Then, you'll have ice during the warm period.

Of course, you also have to protect your storage from all type of scavangers (small animals, insects, humans...)

Do you have any more ideas or do you know any other method?

Initially those Ball jars and lids will probably be the only thing left on the looted or cleaned out store shelves., later, people might be pouring wax on top of food in a variety of bottles and jars, paraffin and the like will be worth their weight to stash away.

[Draq]

https://youtu.be/E7_f-jmmGdQ I'm reposted this from cuisine thread in case someone missed it. There's a tone of these, and he's just one of many ration/nre reviewers. The us Korean war b1&b2 unit episode is the best. Best example of food keeping, and going bad.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Initially those Ball jars and lids will probably be the only thing left on the looted or cleaned out store shelves., later, people might be pouring wax on top of food in a variety of bottles and jars, paraffin and the like will be worth their weight to stash away.

And pressure cookers/canners and extra gaskets and weights. Seeing how food can be quickly cooked in a pressure cooker, this would be helpful in fuel savings. Hmmm...multiple focused solar reflectors plus pressure cooker = fuelless rapid cooker?

Someone has already pointed out that paraffin sealing of jars is only suitable for high-sugar jams and such. You can't preserve veggies that way. Veggies, especially non-acidic ones, need to be pressure canned with good seals. Elsewise, food poisoning or worse: my Junior-High science teacher taught us that the best way to kill yourself is to poorly-can stringbeans, because they have a tendency to generate botullism toxin. Maybe a good way of creating paralyzing poison for a blowgun dart? Or would the required dosage be rather large?

[swaghauler]

Canning is a method of food preservation that has been around since the Napoleonic Wars. It uses a "three piece" jar consisting of a wide mouth mason jar, an inner lid, and a threaded lid that holds the expandable inner lid in place. Everything but the inner lid is reusable. Just increase the item's wear value by 1 for each use until it EXCEEDS 10 (at which point it is unusable).

Water Bath Canning:

This system uses boiling water to seal the canning jars and preserve the food. It requires that the food be acidic in nature to prevent the growth of bacteria as the seal on Water Bath cans is not as strong as pressure canning. Common items that can be Water Bath canned would be:
-Fruit
-Pickles
-Tomatoes

* NEVER use an Aluminum, Copper or Iron pot to boil the jars. A chemical reaction can occur that will ruin your food (or at least discolor it). A Stainless Steel pot is the number one choice here.

To Water Bath can you place the jars in a pot so that water can circulate COMPLETELY around the jars (there are special racks that fit in pots for this) as well as over the top of them. You must leave room in the jars for expansion of the food and water in them. You will boil for about 30 Minutes (varies with altitude) and remove the cans from the pot and let them sit. The jars will "hiss" and "pop" as the inner lids expand and form a vacuum seal. The jars should be allowed to sit and "settle" for 24 hours. This allows the pressure inside the jar to equalize with the outside. You will know if the process was successful if you press on the inner lid (the part that expands) and it DOESN'T move. This means the seal is good. A lid that moves has a bad seal and must be used in just 1D6 days.

Raw/Cold Packed Vegetables: These vegetables will have air trapped inside the food that can escape and cause spoilage. You may store cold packed vegetables for 1D3 Months before they will begin to spoil.

Hot packed Vegetables: These are vegetables that have been cooked (eliminating the air inside the food) and then Water bath canned. These vegetables will last for 1D10 Months before spoilage will begin to set in.

Pressure Canning:

This can be used for ALL foodstuffs as the pressure creates a MUCH STRONGER SEAL than Water Bath Canning. The preparation is exactly the same for Water Bath Canning but you must boil the food in a pressure cooker at a pressure based on your altitude for 10 Minutes. The jars must then settle like those above. They can be checked just like Water Bath jars BUT BE CAREFUL! PRESSURE SEALED JARS CAN EXPLODE IF JOSTLED TOO MUCH. I let them sit for at least 30 minutes before handling them. Any "exploding" food jars will be spectacular but not really capable of causing injury to anyone at least a meter away. The food will be ruined by glass shards, though. Pressure Canned foods will last for 1D6+6 Months when stored in a cool (72F/22C) dry place.

Canning: This is a task Easy(2 X Skill): Cooking, or Routine(1.5 X Skill): Survival. Failure means the food is cooked and must be consumed before it spoils.

Canning Kits:

21 Quart Water Bath Canning Kit: Contains 1 Stainless Steel Pot, 7 Jar Rack, a Wide Mouth Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $60 (V/V), Wt: 4kg, Bulk: 10.

10 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure (4 1-Quart Jars/7 Pint Jars) Vessel, Rack, Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $259 (V/V), Wt: 6kg, Bulk 10.

30 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure Vessel (14 1-Quart Jars/19 Pint Jars), Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $379 (C/C), Wt: 12Kg, Bulk 30.

1-Quart Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $25 (V/V), Wt: 2Kg, Bulk: 3 each jar.

1-Pint Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $14 (V/V), Wt: 1Kg, Bulk: 1 per jar.

as always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Canning is a method of food preservation that has been around since the Napoleonic Wars. It uses a "three piece" jar consisting of a wide mouth mason jar, an inner lid, and a threaded lid that holds the expandable inner lid in place. Everything but the inner lid is reusable. Just increase the item's wear value by 1 for each use until it EXCEEDS 10 (at which point it is unusable).

Water Bath Canning:

This system uses boiling water to seal the canning jars and preserve the food. It requires that the food be acidic in nature to prevent the growth of bacteria as the seal on Water Bath cans is not as strong as pressure canning. Common items that can be Water Bath canned would be:
-Fruit
-Pickles
-Tomatoes

* NEVER use an Aluminum, Copper or Iron pot to boil the jars. A chemical reaction can occur that will ruin your food (or at least discolor it). A Stainless Steel pot is the number one choice here.

To Water Bath can you place the jars in a pot so that water can circulate COMPLETELY around the jars (there are special racks that fit in pots for this) as well as over the top of them. You must leave room in the jars for expansion of the food and water in them. You will boil for about 30 Minutes (varies with altitude) and remove the cans from the pot and let them sit. The jars will "hiss" and "pop" as the inner lids expand and form a vacuum seal. The jars should be allowed to sit and "settle" for 24 hours. This allows the pressure inside the jar to equalize with the outside. You will know if the process was successful if you press on the inner lid (the part that expands) and it DOESN'T move. This means the seal is good. A lid that moves has a bad seal and must be used in just 1D6 days.

Raw/Cold Packed Vegetables: These vegetables will have air trapped inside the food that can escape and cause spoilage. You may store cold packed vegetables for 1D3 Months before they will begin to spoil.

Hot packed Vegetables: These are vegetables that have been cooked (eliminating the air inside the food) and then Water bath canned. These vegetables will last for 1D10 Months before spoilage will begin to set in.

Pressure Canning:

This can be used for ALL foodstuffs as the pressure creates a MUCH STRONGER SEAL than Water Bath Canning. The preparation is exactly the same for Water Bath Canning but you must boil the food in a pressure cooker at a pressure based on your altitude for 10 Minutes. The jars must then settle like those above. They can be checked just like Water Bath jars BUT BE CAREFUL! PRESSURE SEALED JARS CAN EXPLODE IF JOSTLED TOO MUCH. I let them sit for at least 30 minutes before handling them. Any "exploding" food jars will be spectacular but not really capable of causing injury to anyone at least a meter away. The food will be ruined by glass shards, though. Pressure Canned foods will last for 1D6+6 Months when stored in a cool (72F/22C) dry place.

Canning: This is a task Easy(2 X Skill): Cooking, or Routine(1.5 X Skill): Survival. Failure means the food is cooked and must be consumed before it spoils.

Canning Kits:

21 Quart Water Bath Canning Kit: Contains 1 Stainless Steel Pot, 7 Jar Rack, a Wide Mouth Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $60 (V/V), Wt: 4kg, Bulk: 10.

10 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure (4 1-Quart Jars/7 Pint Jars) Vessel, Rack, Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $259 (V/V), Wt: 6kg, Bulk 10.

30 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure Vessel (14 1-Quart Jars/19 Pint Jars), Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $379 (C/C), Wt: 12Kg, Bulk 30.

1-Quart Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $25 (V/V), Wt: 2Kg, Bulk: 3 each jar.

1-Pint Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $14 (V/V), Wt: 1Kg, Bulk: 1 per jar.

as always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

What is your thought on the reusable canning jar lids? I do not can, but know some who do, and they are about 50-50 on saying they suck, or are the best thing ever.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by CDAT

What is your thought on the reusable canning jar lids? I do not can, but know some who do, and they are about 50-50 on saying they suck, or are the best thing ever.

My wife and I took a canning and preserving class presented by the Penn State Agricultural Extension, and their take on the matter was one lid, one use. If there's a reuseable form of lid, they didn't mention it.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

And pressure cookers/canners and extra gaskets and weights. Seeing how food can be quickly cooked in a pressure cooker, this would be helpful in fuel savings. Hmmm...multiple focused solar reflectors plus pressure cooker = fuelless rapid cooker?

Someone has already pointed out that paraffin sealing of jars is only suitable for high-sugar jams and such. You can't preserve veggies that way. Veggies, especially non-acidic ones, need to be pressure canned with good seals. Elsewise, food poisoning or worse: my Junior-High science teacher taught us that the best way to kill yourself is to poorly-can stringbeans, because they have a tendency to generate botullism toxin. Maybe a good way of creating paralyzing poison for a blowgun dart? Or would the required dosage be rather large?

Also MRE's found at 29 Palms by civilian cleaning crews have poisoned more than a few.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Also MRE's found at 29 Palms by civilian cleaning crews have poisoned more than a few.

Must have been GEN 1 MREs. They were REALLY HORRENDOUS!!! The drill Sergeants would give us C-Rations with them because you would open them up and 50% of the time mold spores would "explode" from the package. The "pork patty" and the "beef patty" BOTH tasted EXACTLY THE SAME...like Soy.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Must have been GEN 1 MREs. They were REALLY HORRENDOUS!!! The drill Sergeants would give us C-Rations with them because you would open them up and 50% of the time mold spores would "explode" from the package. The "pork patty" and the "beef patty" BOTH tasted EXACTLY THE SAME...like Soy.

Didn't you pay attention to the "Front--Toward Enemy" label on those Biological Warfare units?

[aspqrz]

Some of you may (or may not) know of the following two actual cases -

1) A London based Providore had taken over an older company (late 80's or early 90's IIRC) and was clearing out its old warehouse. At the very back (or in an out of the way corner) were a quantity of rough packing crates. On opening them, they found rusty cans ... but ones that had not popped (aka 'blown' ... gone off) ... but no labelling.

No one knew their provenance. But, after some searching, they discovered the cans were of Crimean War vintage. They had one of the London based Universities open some of the cans to run tests ... they found that inside was a Beef Broth which, though it was a bit rusty (these were iron cans, not galvanised or plastic coated on the inside) it was perfectly safe.

No. None of the scientists were game to eat it, but they were sure it wasn't contaminated ... they also weren't sure how much caloric value it had, but figured not all that much.

A lot of 'use by' dates are polite fictions ... Chocolate, for example, has one (here in Oz, anyway) ... but Chocolate that's foil wrapped doesn't go off within your lifetime or mine. Worst that happens is that it goes rock hard and develops a milky brown surface skin, but remains perfectly edible.

So you can assume that properly (or fortuitously) stored canned goods will last a lot longer than the Use By date would suggest ... a heck of a lot longer.

2) In Darwin during WW2 a new officer was taking over as Supply Officer on a Bathurst class Corvette and (either a really dumb move or a really smart one, depending) insisted on doing a full inventory before he signed off on receipt.

In one of the vessel's storerooms was a wooden keg. Marked with a broad arrow (aka 'HMG issue'). With what they thought was a serial number. 1815. Couldn't figure out what the heck it was, so they opened it ... inside was salt meat in brine. Still looked good, though the bits that stuck up over the then level of the brine were ... well, mummified. They realised that they '1815' was the YEAR it had been laid down.

As far as they could figure it had been kicked from ship to ship as an old one decommissioned and a new one took on stores ... since 1815.

So don't assume that preserved foods of any sort will go off as fast as the Use By date regime in your country implies they will.

Phil

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Must have been GEN 1 MREs. They were REALLY HORRENDOUS!!! The drill Sergeants would give us C-Rations with them because you would open them up and 50% of the time mold spores would "explode" from the package. The "pork patty" and the "beef patty" BOTH tasted EXACTLY THE SAME...like Soy.

No, it still happens since MRE's are "wet pack", the temperature turns their shelf life to months. A few supply sergeants have been jailed for failure to rotate stock and poisoning troops also. I think they are getting the message, the citizens, don't listen. A cache of bad food can start any number of plots. Stolen bad rations being used to undermine reconstruction efforts, looking for medical help, etc.

[swaghauler]

Here is a method of storing RAW eggs for winter use.

https://youtu.be/bTlcCvvUjl0



You would add one ounce of HYDRATED LIME (by weight) to a quart of clean water. Then just add clean BUT UNWASHED eggs to this solution and cover to prevent evaporation & dirt or bug intrusion into the container of lime water. For those using the Food Contamination Table, you would start checks at EIGHT MONTHS and check each month thereafter for spoilage.

Swag