BTR in Nevada

[Webstral]

The 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment (ACR), a predominantly Tennessee National Guard unit, was deployed to Europe in January, 1997. Although the fighting in Germany had entered a lull with NATO forces having reached their declared stop-line at the Oder River and along the East German-Czechoslovak border, the Kremlin was not ready for peace. Soviet maritime aircraft, submarines, and surface combatants that had survived the Battle of the Norwegian Sea continued to attack convoys crossing the Atlantic from North America to Europe. The convoy carrying the equipment of 278th ACR took heavy losses while in the mid-Atlantic. The remaining equipment of the 278th ACR was consolidated upon arrival in the Netherlands and used to equip a single squadron of the regiment. The regiment temporarily was sidelined to await the arrival of replacement materiel.

In early February, Pact forces in western Czechoslovakia attacked NATO forces in southern Germany. The attackers were Soviet and Czechoslovak. The defenders were mostly Dutch. SOUTHAG, under Dutch command since mid-December, gave ground in a bitterly-fought contest that took the Soviets by surprise. The Soviet leadership had intended to inflict such losses on the Dutch Army that the Netherlands would follow France and Belgium out of the war. Instead, the resolve and skill of the Dutch troops as they waged their fighting withdrawal sapped the Pact offensive of its strength. The arrival of German and American reinforcements enabled SOUTHAG to switch to the counteroffensive; within fourteen days, Pact forces had been pushed back to their start lines.

Despite the satisfactory outcome of the February campaign, SACEUR recalled more than a few hair-raising moments. 278th ACR had sat on the sidelines of the fighting, champing at the bit to enter the fray. SACEUR decided that rebuilding 278th to fighting strength took priority. His chief of staff observed that the USAF Security Forces (SF) maintained a large park of light armored fighting vehicles (LAFV) at its air bases throughout Western Europe. Much to the chagrin of the Air Chief in Europe, SACEUR requisitioned enough LAFV to bring 278th ACR up to strength. The Air Force would have to shuffle its remaining vehicles among its air bases until replacements arrived in-theater.

In Korea and in the Gulf, fighting had seriously depleted the numbers of AFV in US Army formations. In both theaters, the senior leadership adopted the practice of appropriating USAF SF vehicles for use in the Army. The USAF deployed replacement LAFV from its bases in CONUS, promising the CONUS security squadrons that they would be re-equipped as soon as possible. However, by January 1997 the demand for armored cars like the V-150 had far outpaced production. Anxious to meet the needs of Third World clients in the climate of superpower confrontation, the Department of Defense moved the resupply of USAF SF in CONUS to the bottom of the priority list.

At the same time, NATO leaders were dealing with the enormous quantities of captured Warsaw Pact materiel. Even before the Pact offensive in southern Germany, the NATO nations had captured thousands of MBT and tens of thousands of lighter AFV, along with artillery, multiple rocket launchers, trucks, and other military end items. The action in February underscored the desirability of moving at least some of this hardware out of Germany. The PRC, which was building for an all-out offensive in late Summer 1997, expressed an interest in acquiring some of the Pact gear NATO had captured. Some Western-aligned Third World nations, like Pakistan and Egypt, were also interested in acquiring some of the NATO haul. Accordingly, the materiel captured between October and January was divided between the NATO countries for use, disposal, or refurbishing for resale as each nation saw fit. It was universally agreed that captured Pact fighting vehicles would not be used by NATO combat forces, as chances for friendly fire incidents were simply too great.

From late January onward, NATO-controlled sealift vessels making the westward trip across the Atlantic bore captured Pact AFV to CONUS. Some vehicles would go to US arms manufacturers for refit. Others would go for testing by the US military. Still others were set aside for use at the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin, despite the fact that the Army had rejected using captured Iraqi vehicles for training following Operation Desert Storm in 1991. Among the interested parties were the USAF SF who were operating either with much-reduced numbers of LAFV or entirely without LAFV.

A small commission of USAF SF officers and NCOs conducted a study of the Pact vehicles available to determine whether a suitable replacement for their LAFV could be found. Quickly, the Air Force team decided that the BTR-80A combined the characteristics of light armor, good mobility, troop and equipment capacity, and reliability. A pilot program was established for the purpose of testing a slightly refitted version of the BTR-80A. The BTR-80A2 would receive a 25mm autocannon in place of its 30mm gun, and the coaxial 7.62mm MG would be replaced by the same 7.62mm MG used on many US Army vehicles. The Soviet-manufactured diesel engine would be replaced by a commercial US engine. Among the handful of USAF bases participating in the program was Nellis AFB in Nevada.

Nellis employed a substantial number of BTR-80A2 in November, 1997. When the Las Vegas area fell apart during the ’97-’98 winter, Air Force security personnel widely used their BTR in an effort to keep a lid on violence. A number of these vehicles were still operating in June, 1998 when the surviving personnel of Nellis AFB and all other military facilities in Nevada were ordered to move their entire base of operations to California in support of 6th US Army. A new warlord calling himself Shogun managed to acquire several of these vehicles, crews, and mechanics during the move from Nellis to Sacramento and afterwards. These vehicles figured into the fighting between 46th Infantry Division and the Shogun’s forces in late 1998 as the 46th moved through northern Nevada en route from Colorado Springs to Sacramento.

As of April, 2001 three BTR-80A2 are still operable and serving in the Gunryo, the army of the Shogun. Now called dragons, these fighting vehicles serve as light tanks for the Shogun’s motorized force.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Really good, but I'm thinking there'd probably be far less captured vehicles than you've written.

As far as I know, the majority of Pact vehicles aren't as durable as western AFVs when hit by the larger weapon systems. Unless entire regiments or even divisions surrendered to the west while still in good order, I'd have thought maybe only 1 in 10 (just to pick a figure) of all Pact vehicle losses would be due to capture rather than destruction.

The same would probably hold true for western vehicles lost, however there may be a higher percentage of repairable vehicles.

Of course that's just my impression.

[Webstral]

Captured vehicles includes non-functional vehicles with some salvage value.

[Legbreaker]

This is true. I presume you'd have everything shipped out in captured condition? Repaired later by the receiving nations?

[simonmark6]

There is a possibility for large scale captures as well in my opinion, if the opening stages of the Twilight War played out using the Western tactics of decapitation strikes then several intact units might have been isolated and behind the front with no orders.

Many of these units would either be rolled over or destroyed as they tried to fight back, but some, possibly lower echelon units or ones that were war weary from the Eastern War might have just surrendered on mass. A company of motor infantry that did this would yield something like twenty vehicles (I don't have time to look it up so I could be way out) and a batallion lots more.

Granted, this wouldn't happen too often, but it is within the realms of possibility in my opinion, certainly enough for Webstral's posit to be within the realms of willing suspension of disbelief. Certainly enough for me, good job Webstral, I like the work!

[jester]

Interesting for sure. Although the whole idea of driving a BTR, ick! Although a BRDM would be much better.

I can see the idea of them not being used in Europe, that would be risky. And the idea of them being used in CONUS would be a good idea for dealing with Civ Gov, NA and the assorted rogues, bandits and marauders and warlords. I can even see them on the California front, as long as they stay out of Texas and the Division De Cuba.

Some issues though:

Transport and shipping facilities could be a problem. The vessels will they be there? Will they sit in harbor the extra couple days or weeks now to load them making prime targets for Pact air and sea forces? At sea, more comerce raiders, a laden vessel handles slower than a unladen.

An d of course the facilities to load and unload such vesels, since many of the major port facilities were severely damaged.

Refitting the thingswith the ramp up in production will it be available? I mean the facilities, the personel and the materials to do so.

Crews need to be trained to repair and maintain and even use them.

Russian gear, its bass ackwards in many ways, and the labels, guages, parts and such will all be in Russian.

It would be interested, but also there are several design flaws of pact vehicles, as an American I love the fuel cell in the back doors, something I am sure they aren't thrillled with. Size, most pact armored vehicles are made for people smaller than the average American, that can be a problem.

Overall though it would be a cool idea for internal or domestic forces backhome, it would just have limitations.

Crews would need extra training and need to be smaller in stature <oooh a special group of women AF SF types, or regular police using them> who would have some Russian taught to them to read some of the parts and such, as well as the drivbing characteristics.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

This is true. I presume you'd have everything shipped out in captured condition? Repaired later by the receiving nations?

Exactly my intent. The folks who are qualified to repair AFV in Germany have very full lives at this point. Back in Canada and the US, cannibalization and substitution can proceed without the threat of airstrikes. As Simonmark6 points out, captured AFV seldom will be fully operable, although NATO does capture fully intact prizes on occasion. The sheer numbers of disabled vehicles strewn across East Germany, though, virtually ensures that cannibalization will yield enough of the right kinds of parts to restore a small percentage of the recovered AFV to operational status even before the issue of manufacturing new parts is raised. Obviously, this is an enormous job; the number of Pact AFV made operational prior to July 1997 will be a small slice of the big pie of vehicles captured in Europe. Nevertheless, I do believe there's a logic to having a few Pact fighting vehicles spice up encounters in North America by appearing in unexpected locations.

Webstral

[Raellus]

In WWII, the Germans captured litterally thousands of weapons and vehicles during the encirclement battles which characterized the opening months of Barbarrossa. A lot of it was completely undamaged. They used many of those captured weapons and vehicles, mounting, for example, captured 76mm DP guns on tracked vehicle chasis and using them as SP AT guns. They captured so many Mosin Nagant rifles and PPsH submachine guns that they each received official Wermacht designations when issued to Axis units. They did the same with captured 203mm howitzers and other Soviet artillery. And, of course, captured T-34s were repainted and used by some Panzer units.

So, I can see large numbers of captured Soviet/WTO gear being used by NATO forces. I haven't, however, thought about those weapons being shipped back to CONUS for use there. It seems like they'd be better put to use in the ETO. Former East German armorers and mechanics and such would be perfect for refurbishing damaged PACT gear and getting it back into circulation with the various NATO armies. But, I suppose that so much PACT gear would be captured in the opening drive towards Soviet soil that quite a few could be spared for shipment back to the States before the nukes started flying. So, what you've postulated, Wed, is completely plausible.

Here in the Tucson area, I get to see military gear routinely being shipped north and south on the I-10 Highway, mostly on flatbed trucks. It's mostly U.S. gear nowadays (lots of Humvees and MRAPs and the army's new 105mm gun) but I've seen a BTR-2, an MTLB, and a M1973 SG gun on flatbeds too. They were all heading south so I assume they were being taken to Fort Huachuca.

[jester]

Here is the question then.

What would the conditions be that a vehicle could be captured/salvaged to where it can be returned to operational status?

I mean as mentioned alot of PACT APCs have that nasty fuel tank in the backdoor which sets the things easily aflame. And a vehicle that has been burnt out would most likely end up in a catrastrophic kill.

So anything hit by a modern anti armor missile would most likely not be in any condition to salvage. Mines well if it took some minor suspension damage maybe.

A soldier with an AT rocket giving it an ass shot would make it useless due to the fire hazard above.

Those are just some things, so really what type of hits would it take where they could be resurected?