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#1
11-26-2009, 06:37 PM
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Ireland/Northern Ireland Timeline
A while back I wanted to do a campaign set in Ireland/Northern Ireland. So did some research: here is what I came up with for the Time-line:
Background 1990-1997 — The Irish Republican Army (IRA) was very active in Ireland in years leading up to Twilight; placing moles in two key places: Garda’s Special Branch, and the Royal Ulster Constabulary’s Special Branch. With those moles in place, the IRA was aware of British/Irish counter-terrorist efforts to detect, capture, and arrest IRA members. Moreover, Sinn Féin was elected to the Oireachtas (legislature of Ireland) and by 1997 had passed Fine Gael - The United Ireland Party; as the second largest party in Ireland. The IRA also became very active with the smuggling and stashing of arms caches in Ireland. October 15 1997 — The IRA takes and holds the towns of Petigoe, Belleek, Belcoo, and Keady, with no regular army units available, the brunt of the offensive falls to the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the Army’s Home Defence Unit; the Ulster Defence Regiment. October 25 1997 — The British offensive against the IRA begins with a with a helicopters assault on Petigoe. During the assault; five Chinook helicopters are shot down by the IRA; with SAM-7 Surface to Air missiles; resulting in the failing of the offensive. The British are forced to band all of their helicopters from combat zone and use armoured transport for the next assault. October 31 1997 — The British offensive against Petigoe fails again; due to heavy RPG-7 fire by the IRA. November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats. November 2 1997 — Open warfare erupts between the Protestant Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and Catholic IRA in Northern Ireland; fighting begins in the streets of Belfast and Londonderry, and many Catholics and Protestants are killed or forced out in the ensuing violence. In the border counties of Fermanagh and Armagh, the IRA seized control and calls for military support and assistance from Ireland to protect Fermanagh and Armagh from the Protestant forces. November 3 1997 — Elements of 2 Brigade; Óglaigh na hÉireann (Irish Defence Forces) moved into the border counties; the 2nd Irish Civil War begins. November 4 1997 — The British Armed Forces destroy the main elements of the Aer Chór na hÉireann (Irish Air Corps) and Seirbh*s Chabhlaigh na hÉireann (Irish Naval Service), leaving Ireland with only an Army to defended itself. November 26 - December 9 1997 — The Irish Defence Forces enjoyed a number of early successes, taking Enniskillen, Armagh, Newry, and Londonderry. December 13 1997 — The British form the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division and move it into Fermanagh and Armagh. December 14 1997 — First British and Irish conscripts arrive in Northern Ireland. January 21 1998 — The remnants of Irish Naval Service form the Naval Infantry Regiment and remnants of Irish Air Corps forms 5 Independent (Air Force) Battery; anti-aircraft defense. March 3 1998 — With destruction of Irish Naval Service and elimination of IRA sea threat the remnants British Northern Ireland Squadron are redeployed to Mediterranean. June 1998 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division goes on the attack and retakes some of its lost border territories except for Londonderry and Armagh. November 1998 — As winter approached, the war is stalemated as both sides concentrated on feeding their civilian population. At the same time, the IRA began a new campaign of terror in Northern Ireland. March 1999 — The IRA continues its guerrilla war, despite RUC crackdowns. Mid-May 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division lays siege Londonderry. April 1999 — Irish Defence Forces launched a two division attack, but it flounders on the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division defensive line. May 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division launched its own offensive. The severity of the attack resulted in the Irish Defence Forces being pushed back along the entire front. June 1999 — Armagh falls to 36th (Ulster) Defence Division. August 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division drives to outskirts of Ballyshannon, which isolates the Donegal region. October 1999 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division halts its offensive and secured all of its gains. For all its success, however, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division could not seize Londonderry, to which it had laid siege to in mid-May. January 2000 — The year begins with a surprise offensive by the Irish Defence Forces. Conducted in the middle of the worst winter seen in Ireland for many years, it takes the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division totally by surprise and accomplishes its goal re-establishing links with Donegal and breaking the siege of Londonderry. June 2000 — The 36th (Ulster) Defence Division launched a two-pronged offensive, with a southern drive towards Dublin and eastern drive into Donegal to isolate Londonderry. June 7 2000 — The southern drive is halted at Drogheda, while the eastern drive encountered stiff resistance and stalled on the outskirts of Bailyshannon. September 2000 — As autumn set in, the 36th (Ulster) Defence Division begins the siege of Bailyshannon, which could continue through the winter. Currently —In Northern Ireland, the troubles continued, and the situation shows no signs of ending. Northern Ireland is, for all intents and purposes, an independent country. The war with Ireland continues to be bogged down, with both sides launching a number of unsuccessful attacks. The oncoming blight has increase hardships on both sides, but the war continues — the government that sues for peace is the government that is overthrown. The situation has come to resemble that found in places like Ethiopia, the Sudan, and various other African countries during the 1980s.
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"You're damn right, I'm gonna be pissed off! I bought that pig at Pink Floyd's yard sale!" Last edited by Canadian Army; 11-27-2009 at 05:56 PM. 
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#2
11-26-2009, 11:10 PM
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#3
11-27-2009, 05:59 PM
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I fixed it, I should never play snakes and ladders with my son while I'm posting!
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"You're damn right, I'm gonna be pissed off! I bought that pig at Pink Floyd's yard sale!"
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#4
12-06-2009, 10:49 PM
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My view about Northern Ireland would be that British and Northern Irish Unionists forces would be too tough for Republic of Ireland forces to take on on their own ground, even during a nuclear war.
Irish Republican terrorists were suprisingly resourcefull and determined, but they tended to cross the border when things got to hot for them as they knew British security forces couldn't pursue them. Unionist terrorists and paramilitaries on the other hand had a more ruthless reputation as there was nowhere for them to run. In a full scale war in Northern Ireland there would be little or no restrictions on British security and police force activity, and they would turn a blind eye to Ulster Unionist terrorists. Although Irish troops are highly regarded, and have historically and continue to be among best soldiers in the British Army, Republic of Ireland military forces are generally inferior to their British counterparts in training and are not as well equiped. The Irish Army is very underfunded and uses mainly outdates equipment, while the Irish Air Corp has little combat and transport capability, and the Irish Naval Service is little better than a coast guard force. Compared with Republic of Ireland military resources, Britain's military resources and capablities are vastly superior in every way. One RN frigate would sink the entire Irish fleet, and a couple of second line RAF Hawk jets would knock out the entire Irish air force in a day. One British Army armoured regiment could be loaded on a few car ferrys and be in Northern Ireland in a few hours, and it would obliterate the Irish Army as a functional force. NORTHERN IRELAND BRITISH ARMY Currently only one British Army brigade is stationed in Northern Ireland-38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade. 38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade reformed in 2007. The brigade is under the command of the 2nd Division, the regional division for Scotland, Northern England and Northern Ireland, and is responsible for administering the Territorial Army within Northern Ireland. This was the culmination of a drawdown of military headquarters in Northern Ireland, which saw the disbandment of 3 Infantry Brigade, 8 Infantry Brigade, 39 Infantry Brigade and 107 (Ulster) Brigade. HQ Northern Ireland 15 Signal Regiment 38 Infantry Brigade: • HQNI Support Battalion • 2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment (27th (Inniskilling), 83rd, 87th and Ulster Defence Regiment) • 591 (Independent) Field Squadron, Royal Engineers • 152 Transport Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps • 253 Medical Regiment, Royal Army Medical Corps • Queen's University Officer Training Corps B (North Irish Horse) Squadron, Queen's Own Yeomanry 40 (Ulster) Signal Regiment 206 (Ulster) Battery, 105th Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers) 204 Field Hospital, Royal Army Medical Corps 5 Regiment, Army Air Corps 25 Engineer Regiment 8 Detachment, Lisburn, Northern Ireland - 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) 3rd Infantry Brigade was based in Portadown Ireland from 1974 until 2004 when it was disbanded. It was the HQ element for the security forces which controlled the South Armagh region, and included several battalions of the Ulster Defence Regiment. 8th Infantry Brigade was based in Derry from the late 1960s to 2006, and covered the north and northwest regions of Ulster. Its HQ was moved to Ballykelly in 2003 and the brigade was disbanded in 2006. 39th Infantry Brigade was deployed to Northern Ireland in 1969 and was responsible for the security of Belfast and the eastern region of Ulster. It was named 39 Airportable Brigade when it was first sent to Ireland, and under its command were elements of the Parachute Regiment which was involved in the Bloody Sunday incident in 1972. The brigade took on some units from the disbanded 3rd Infantry Brigade in 2004, and was amalgamated with 107 (Ulster) Brigade in 2006 and disbanded in 2007. 107th (Ulster) Brigade was based in Ballymena and was responsible for administering the Territorial Army within Northern Ireland. It was disbanded in 2006 and amalgamated with 39 Infantry Brigade and then into the 38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade in 2007. Many regular British Army infantry regiments and units from mainland Britain did tours in Northern Ireland, including the Parachute Regiment, the Special Air Service, and Royal Marine Commandos. ROYAL IRISH RANGERS British Army infantry regiment formed in 1968 when the three surviving Irish regiments of the British Army were amalgamated into a single regiment. Although an Irish based regiment the Rangers were resistant to serving in Northern Ireland during the height of the “ Troubles ”, and its troops served tours in Germany, the Falklands and elsewhere, and the regiment actively recruited from South of the Border. However the Rangers did serve in Northern Ireland from 1989-1991. The regiment amalgamated with the Ulster Defence Regiment to form the Royal Irish Regiment in 1992. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Royal Ulster Rifles Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria’s) Weapons: Standard British Army issue. Vehicles: Standard British Army issue. ULSTER DEFENCE REGIMENT (UDR) Former British Army Territorial infantry regiment with 11 battalions at peak strength. Highly politicised and accused of both sectarianism and collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and abuses against catholic community. Catholic members accounted for 3% of strength during the 1980’s and 1990’s. The regiment amalgamated with the Royal Irish Rangers to form the Royal Irish Regiment in 1992. 1st (County Antrim) Battalion 2nd (County Armagh) Battalion 3rd (County Down) Battalion 4th (County Fermanagh) Battalion 5th (County Londonderry) Battalion 6th (County Tyrone) Battalion 7th (City of Belfast) Battalion 8th (County Tyrone) Battalion 9th (County Antrim) Battalion 10th (City of Belfast) Battalion 11th (Craigavon) Battalion Weapons: 7.62mm L1A1 SLR rifles, 9mm Browning pistols, 9mm Sterling SMG’s, 7.62mm L4A4 Bren LMGs, 7.62mm L7A2 FN MAG GPMGs, as well as small stocks of Walther PPK pistols, Federal riot guns and Carl Gustav 84mm grenade launchers. 5.56mm SA80 began replacing L1A1 SLR in the 1980’s. Vehicles: ¾-ton Land Rovers, Shorland armoured cars, three & four-ton Bedford trucks, and unmarked civilian cars and vans. UDR troops were frequently deployed on Army and RAF helicopters, usually the Army Lynx. ROYAL ULSTER CONSTABULARY (RUC) At its peak the RUC had around 8,500 police officers with a further 5,000 members of the RUC Reserve, which was the second largest police force in the United Kingdom after the Metropolitan Police of London. The Special Patrol Group was a RUC police unit tasked with counter terrorism. Each SPG had 30 members. Many SPG units were accused of collusion with the paramilitary group the Ulster Volunteer Force. Weapons: 0.38 Ruger Security Six revolver, 7.62mm Ruger Mini-14 carbine, 9mm HK MP5 SMG’s, as well as some 9mm Glock 17 pistols, 7.62mm HK G3 and 5.56mm HK33 rifles. Vehicles: ¾-ton Land Rovers, civilian cars and vans. ROYAL AIR FORCE RAF Aldergrove (20th September 2009 ceased to officially be RAF base) No. 230 Squadron (9x Puma helicopters) No. 3 Squadron, RAF Regiment 5th Regiment Army Air Corps (6x Defender multi-purpose patrol and recon aircraft, 6x Islander patrol and utility aircraft) PSNI Air Support Unit (1x EC-135 helicopter) *** No. 72 Squadron operated Puma & Wessex helicopters until 2002. No. 18 Squadron operated detachments of Chinook helicopters during the late 1980’s. * Also Army AH-64, Gazelle and Lynx helicopters periodically deployed to Aldergrove, in addition to RAF Tristars and VC10s. Shackleton Barracks Former RAF base. Runways and taxiways remain well maintained and operational, and are used as a refuelling point for army helicopters and small fixed-wing aircraft operating out of RAF Aldergrove. ROYAL NAVY 4 River-Class minesweepers (Arun, Blackwater, Itchen, Spey) * All 4 ships moved to HM Naval Base Clyde (Faslane Naval Base) in western Scotland in 1993, and replaced by Hunt-Class minesweepers (Brecon, Cottesmore, Dulverton) in 1998.
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#5
12-07-2009, 12:09 AM
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Thanks RN7. Nice stuff.
For my part I have Irish forces collaborating with the British against the IRA but CA has posted a nice timeline and I'm not sure that if the situation evolves as he describes the British Army gets the upper hand. Also I agree partly with what you say, you might be underestimating the Irish army. First, it will be composed of 13.000 regular troops and 16.000 reservists. They will compose 4 infantry brigades including 11 infantry battalions, 1 Ranger company, 1 Tank squadron, 1 Recce squadron, 3 artillery regiment, 1 independent battery, 1 air-defense regiment and 3 engineer companies. Second they will mobilize the Forsa Cosanta Aituil (FCA) that will bring 22.000 more troops. That represent 18 infantry battalion, six artillery regiments, 3 armoured cavalry squadrons, 3 engineer squadrons and 3 air-defense batteries. Their equipement is not that heavy alright but so is the equipment of the British. In addition Scorpion and AML-60/90 will represent a serious threat. Carl Gustav and Milan will match these of the British. Artillery is partly outdated with 25-pdr but much of it is equipped with light gun and that is much better than anything in British hands. Bofors and RBS-70 are more than a threat for the RAF. You are right for the air force and the navy, however. I don't think the navy will be heavily engaged and the air force is no good outside COIN operations. Nevertheless, in case of the Twilight War, the Irish will still have their 6 Fouga Magister. These will be the sole jet aircrafts in the area and could prove to be of a certain advantage. Fouga have limited capacities but with no opposing jets they are something to count with. Finally Ireland has the Garda Sochiana (Civil Police) to back its army and it will have less difficulties in term of supply. Outside Cork the country didn't suffer any massive destruction and you can expect it's tiny military industry to be working. That's very tiny indeed but more than what the British have after the nukes fall. In addition, you can expect the French to provide some supplies and why not more Fouga (the last were being retired at that time) Last edited by Mohoender; 12-07-2009 at 12:17 AM.
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#6
12-07-2009, 10:03 AM
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Sorry I haven't given a proper reply to this yet - been very busy with work. I'll hopefully get a chance to give this a proper answer from a local point of view this weekend.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
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#7
12-08-2009, 08:54 AM
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#8
12-08-2009, 09:38 AM
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For France, there is no reason for the supplies to be shipped clandestinely as Ireland (unlike scotland or Quebec) is a legitimate country. It would be perfectly legitimate to sell it military supplies: phased out AML, heavy mortars, ammunitions and, why not, air-defense equipements. For the Fouga, I'm convinced they will for two reasons: France is out of the war and it will keep replacing its Fougas by Alpha Jets. Therefore, it will be more than happy to sell them (even in the case of no conflict with UK, it could sell them to Ireland). Irish pilots are familiar with the plane and they won't need extensive training to expend the air force. If UK wants to react against France sending supplies, it can't do much outside of the diplomatic fields because France is too strong militarily. The main difference between our views reside in the British reaction. I consider that this conflict would remain an infantry war with forces pretty much matching each other. That's what I understood from Canadian Army text and, of course, I might be wrong. As I said my personnal view is that Ireland remains outside of the conflict, even helping the British in their fight against the IRA. Thanks for your views
Last edited by Mohoender; 12-08-2009 at 09:49 AM.
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#9
12-08-2009, 10:55 AM
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Something else might interest you RN7. If most of the Irish AML are AML-60, they will quickly find themselve short of ammunitions unless Ireland as the capability to produce the proper 60mm ammo.
France phased out its last AML-60 in the mid-1980's (or early, I don't remember) because of insufficient ammo. If I think France could supply Ireland, it would certainly not produce these 60mm mortar rounds again. It leaves the AML-60 with their Cal.50 and 7.62 only.
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#10
12-08-2009, 11:27 AM
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There were 4 British Brigade HQ in Northern Ireland in the 1990s. 3rd, 8th and 39th Infantry Brigades were regional brigades covering various parts of Northern Ireland, containing a mix of regular troops and UDR. 107th (Ulster) Brigade is a TA Brigade which contained 4th and 5th Royal Irish Rangers, the North Irish Horse and signals, engineer and artillery elements.
All brigades were earmarked for transfer out of Ireland as the war in Europe heated up. 3rd Infantry Brigade was transferred out of Ireland to 3rd Mechanised Division with BAOR, but with trouble brewing in Ireland the others are likely to have stayed. 8th Infantry Brigade (Battalions rotate out) 1st Bn, The Light Infantry: 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg 3rd Bn, The Light Infantry: 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg 39th Infantry Brigade (Dedicated to the defence of Northern Ireland) (The Battalions rotate out). 1st Bn, The Devon and Dorset Regiment: 71x FV432, 4x Sultan, 7x Ferret, 8x Scimitar, 8x 81mm Mortar, 24x Milan 1st Bn, The Cheshire Regiment (Light Infantry): 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg 107 (Ulster) Brigade (NI) North Irish Horse (TA): 29x Sultan, 40x Scimitar, 32xScorpion, 20x Striker, 20x Spartan, 17x Ferret 1st Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers: 71x FV432, 4x Sultan, 7x Ferret, 8x Scimitar, 8x 81mm Mortar, 24x Milan 2nd Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers: 71x FV432, 4x Sultan, 7x Ferret, 8x Scimitar, 8x 81mm Mortar, 24x Milan 4th Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA): 74x Land Rovers 5th Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA): 74x Land Rovers Ulster Defense Regiment (TA) 11 Infantry Battalions (Light Infantry): 8x 81mm mortars, 6x Milan, 4x .50 cal mg (each) * It is likely that only 5 battalions or even 3 (large) battalion were active. One British Army Armoured Regiment had 70x Challenger, 4x Sultan, 8x Scorpion, 10x FV432, 8x Ferret. In the 90’s three armoured regiments were based in the UK, and two of them were not assigned to reinforce the BAOR in Germany. One British Army Territorial Yeomanry Regiment had 80x Fox, 20x Spartan, 11x Sultan, 11x Ferret and 5x Samaritan. One British Army Light Field Artillery Regiment had 24-18x 105mm guns. Any one of them could easily be transported to Ireland by ferry in a few hours.
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#11
12-08-2009, 11:30 AM
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I think a point worth also bringing up is the quality of the two sides’ soldiers. I have friends in Dublin and used to visit regularly in the early to mid 90’ and the subject of the Irish Army came up in conversation a few times.
My understanding from talking to my friends was that the majority of Southern Irishmen who were serious about pursuing a long term military career opted to join either the British Army or, in some cases, the French Foreign Legion. This meant that these organisations attracted the best quality recruits, whilst the Irish Army wasn't seen as a good option and had to make do with what was left (or the British / French didn’t want).
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivors Guide to the United Kingdom
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#12
12-08-2009, 12:52 PM
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However, I didn't checked CA's timeline in regard of the game's timeline. I have not refered to any of the original timelines in a couple of months and as my personnal biological computer is already overloaded with informations, I don't retain a precize memory of it (I had to overwrite that part of my braindisc  ). In my mind these units were either sent overseas or vaporized by the heavy nuclear strike on UK. That counts also for most ferries (at least these in the Irish Sea). If CA's timeline takes place before that, I would advise that what he describes should happen a little later. I agree with you that the Irish would be fools to move against regular UK units.
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#13
12-08-2009, 12:16 PM
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I didn't want to bring this topic up but you are spot on. I think Ireland (south) is the largest source of British Army recruits outside of the UK and maybe Nepal. Most recruits to the Irish Army have either the wrong temperment to be employed at anything else or see it as a career move to a fairly comfortable government job. Many married soldiers go home to their families after work, at least for part of the week, and it was recently highlighted in the Irish media that many Irish soldiers are well over 30 and out of shape. Many also volunteer for UN peacekeeping duties because they get a big pay rise for doing so. Back in the 90's Irish army soldiers tried to suit the Irish government because they claimed their hearing was damaged because they werent given ear plugs while on target practice. Some soldiers also tried to suit because they werent provided with sun-screen while on UN duties in sunny climates such as Cyprus and the Lebanon. It was also claimed that Irish soldiers were asked to make pretent shooting and explosive noises while on exercises as the army couldn't afford to give them real or training ammunition because of cuts. Recently some new vehicles, helicopters and weapons have been bought to increase the forces capabilities, particularly regarding UN duties, but outside of the Ranger Company which is very well trained and highly regarded, the average Republic of Ireland soldier isn't as well trained, equipped or of the same calibre of their British counterparts.
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#14
12-08-2009, 12:53 PM
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12-08-2009, 05:03 PM
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#16
12-11-2009, 10:55 PM
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Exercise Armageddon
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6814997.ece
The real-world plan of attack for the Irish army
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#18
12-18-2009, 11:52 AM
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British Army orbat for Northern Ireland for the 1980's.
NORTHERN IRELAND 33 Independent Field Sqn RE, Antrim Provisional Regiment AAC, Aldergrove 4 Royal Irish Rangers, Portadown 5 Royal Irish Rangers, Lurgan 102 Light Air Defence Regiment RA, Newtownards 8 Infantry Brigade, Londonderry
655 Sqn AAC, det to Aldergrove
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#19
12-19-2009, 10:46 AM
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6 Regiment RMP Regimental Training Wing Operations Company 173 (Operations) Platoon 177 (Support) Platoon Police Company 175 (Provost) Platoon 176 (Provost) Platoon Also 8 Detachment, 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was in Lisburn Northern Ireland for a period. Quote:
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#20
12-19-2009, 12:55 PM
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As best as I can tell 1st Regiment was in place until March 1985, at which point it disbanded and its constituent Companies (which included 173 and possibly 174 Provost Companies) became independent. So in a T2K setting a GM could probably keep 1st Regiment in place if desired. That said, I've always thought that canon envisaged most regular British forces being pulled out of Northern Ireland at some point during 1997 and moved to Europe, with their place being taken by a fully mobilised Ulster Defence Regiment. So, if you go by canon it makes perfect sense to me that the UDR would then take on the title 36th (Ulster) Division (as suggested by Canadian Army), and provide the vast majority of the infantry soldiers in NI, whilst a small number of British Regulars (or TA) from the Royal Signals, Royal Engineers (for EOD), and Army Air Corps fill 36 Division's various support roles. Personally, I would also attach 1 Regiment RMP and (possibly) 3 Squadron RAF Regiment (as you mentioned earlier) to 36th Division.
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivors Guide to the United Kingdom Last edited by Rainbow Six; 12-19-2009 at 01:10 PM.
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#21
12-20-2009, 11:22 PM
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#22
12-21-2009, 06:36 AM
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Cheers
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivors Guide to the United Kingdom
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#23
12-21-2009, 04:36 PM
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"November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."
Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?
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"There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." --General George S. Patton, Jr.
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#24
12-21-2009, 05:47 PM
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As a rule though, I'd imagine holes above the waterline aren't going to do much good, and 106mm RCL aren't exactly all that effective through water....
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#25
12-21-2009, 07:48 PM
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Hmm, doing a quick check of the web, the Helford was a minehunter ship, unfortunately it was transferred to the Bangladeshi navy in 1994. The picture looks as though it has a metal hull but would it have the same level of armour as say a frigate? The 106mm rounds were at least the equivalent of a 105mm tank round so they would have some ability to damage a ship. It seems that at least half of the ships mentioned are minehunters and they are rather small http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...ORD_DETAIL.htm http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...TER_DETAIL.htm http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...EN_DETAILS.htm
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#26
12-22-2009, 06:19 AM
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River-Class
I did some checking the River-Class were built with a traditional steel hull to a design based on a commercial offshore support vessel. The class was designed to be operated as deep sea team sweepers, to combat the threat posed to submarines by Soviet deep-water buoyant moored mines codenamed "Cluster Bay".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_class_minesweeper Here is picture from wikipedia of the HMS Orwell in the Bay of Biscay en route to Gibraltar, 1990 
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"You're damn right, I'm gonna be pissed off! I bought that pig at Pink Floyd's yard sale!"
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#27
06-22-2010, 11:19 PM
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I want to retract my previous statement about Republic of Ireland troops-
" Most recruits to the Irish Army have either the wrong temperment to be employed at anything else or see it as a career move to a fairly comfortable government job. Many married soldiers go home to their families after work, at least for part of the week, and it was recently highlighted in the Irish media that many Irish soldiers are well over 30 and out of shape. Many also volunteer for UN peacekeeping duties because they get a big pay rise for doing so". -after reading this article about them serving on UN duty in the Congo during the 1960's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jadotville 150 Irish soldiers in the middle of Africa cut off from other UN forces with no hope of relief, and with little heavy weaponry and shortages of ammunition and supplies, manage to hold out against a force of up to 5,000 enemy native soldiers led by European mercenaries for six days until they ran out of ammunition and supplies, and kill at least 300 and wound up to 1,000 with no casualties to themsleves other than a half a dozen wounded. I believe there is going to be a film about it. The UN should have sent the Irish to Bosnia or Rwanda!
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#28
06-22-2010, 11:50 PM
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#29
06-24-2010, 05:45 AM
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I don't see why the British Army would even care about Northern Ireland. I mean with Warsaw Pact and all wouldn't they be the least of their probelms?
I mean I could see leaving a very small force there for homeland defense against a possible foreign enemy, but with WW3 why not let law enforcement handle the civilains, and let the troops fight the reds. Why not just leave Northern Ireland to it's own devices? I mean the IRA would be cutting it's own balls off by attacking British troops. They know if the British lost, the Soviets aren't gonna be nice to them, or leave them alone in Northern Ireland. I just think the U.K. would have more important things to do then give up able bodied troops to play policeman. I like the story though. I'm not from the U.K., so it's not that in my face. I don't even understand what the whole thing is about and what group stands for what and who is fighting who. My education on the IRA is from Hollywood. 
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