Alcohol

[Graebarde]

This might have already been address, but with the recent talk about fuel in XI Corps, and Whiskey etc I think it's time to drag it up again. I have a serious question as to the production of alcohol for fuel in T2K. Not so much in making it, but the amounts that are necessary. Where do they get the feed stock? It's assumed they use grains or other starchy vegetation (think spuds) for it, or wood for methanol. But with a MAJOR food shortage, and problems in the post strike timeline to produce enough for people, WHO would turn grain into fuel??? Yes the distiller's grain (what's left after distillation) is high protien and can be/is fed to livestock, I just ponder the concept as something next to criminal.. And turning wood into wood alcohol (methanol) is in the same boat IMO. It takes much longer to 'ferment' the cellulose into alcohol.

We discussed biodiesel, but even that is questionable as the labor put into raising oil crops (rapeseed/canola, sunflowers, soybeans) for oil would be better spent in food production. Land is not the problem, nor really is the labor pool, but seed for the production is. If we talk corn, which is the heavy yielder, even at the lower yields after the strikes, will be a problem until the hybrids can be turned back into open-pollinated... Yes there is some seed available, but it being a fighting game it is never addressed.

Enough rambling. Ideas??

[Legbreaker]

Is this something that is already addressed in a very basic form by the price difference between a litre of fuel and kilogram of food?

I agree that food is definatley the priority in most places. Only waste products would be available for distillation, and I doubt there'd be a lot of waste left over in the more highly populated areas. Perhaps this is why it took so long between the 97-98 campaigns and those of 2000?

[kato13]

Just a reminder that the game designers totally screwed up on the subject of methanol.

Methanol

Methanol production, as written, totally violates the laws of biology and chemistry.

[Webstral]

This favors the bigger cantonments over, say, the roaming bands of brigands. Being a law-and-order type more than a warrior of the wasteland type, I like the idea that the technology/chemistry gives the bigger organizations an advantage over the smaller ones.

Of course, bigger v smaller works both ways. The New Americans in Florida have a large, relatively secure cantonment vis-a-vis the resistance. Still, I like an idea that generally gives the troops and the cops an advantage over the brigands.

Webstral

[Mohoender]

I agree that food will be a priority in most areas. However, there might be several things to take in consideration:

Compare to nowadays the number of running vehicles will be extremely low and the quantities of fuel will be consequently lower.

The number of people will be largely reduced and on the short-term (provided you can organize your food production) food won't be a problem.

If you are some kind of military units (regular or not) you will be interested in getting some kind of fuels and that will be a high priority along food and ammo. Any commander, will be tempted to force the locals in producing some kind of fuels. That commander will either turn the locals into slavery/serfdom or it will force a kind of taxation upon the civilians (if they are its nationals).

IMO the most important fuel source will definitely be wood as you can't feed on it. You'll need it to heat your home, to cook your food, to run your car (provided its old enough and you have the technical knowledge to build a gazogene) and to provide you with some kind of energy (directly or after transforming it into coal). In addition, with the huge reduction in world population, forests will be expending fast and that source will be more available every year.

I agree that alcohol is not always ideal but it still can work and it's not that hard to produce (at a max of 95°). Then, if food will be a priority, wastes won't be that rare.

In former wine region grape production could largely be turned into alcohol. Moreover, in these regions other food products can be grown within your vineyards and, as a result, you can keep the vines and use the land for something else. That is a practice banned today in most countries but, for exemple, in Portugal, until 1990, people were growing olive/fruit trees in the middle of their vines. In addition, with grapes, what you don't eat can be turned into alcohol.

I'm sure that sugar cane will continue to be turned into alcohol as well.

In regions growing potatoes, I can imagine the local authorities forcing people to never eat potatoes with the skin in order to save potatoe skin for other purpose 'such as energy...

If you grow corn or any type of wheat, you might use what remains of the plant (also I don't know for sure).

IMO, even today, using food to make fuel is the most stupid idea ever and probably the most important coming threat for our ecology.

Oil will be available for food as well. Olives are not that good to feed a population and it will be entirely used to make oil (as food and fuel).

Don't forget about land animal/fish grease.

... I forgot about peanuts...

IMO oil will be very important as it is more easily produced than 95° alcohol and because it can be useful for plenty of things as well: light, energy, grease your engines...

I have seen many of you talking of biodiesel. That's nice but there is no point on making biodiesel for a simple reason you don't need it to run your car. The most modern diesel vehicles indeed need biodiesel but that's not the case for the older ones and that might not be the case for many military engines. What you need is simply vegetable oil and a good mechanic (nothing more than for a gazogene).

Currently, France will give you a fine if you put vegetable oil in your car but Belgium and Germany already authorise and push their people to use vegetable oil in their cars. For most people, they take that oil from restaurants after it had been used to cook. Then, that oil is filtered and used to fill the tank. As a result, you can use this oil for your food and recycle it to run your vehicle. Depending on your vehicle you can run it with 30% to 100% of vegetable oil.

The funny part in T2K is that the USA will have become a nation of pedestrian (due to your lack of diesel engines).

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Moreover, in these regions other food products can be grown within your vineyards and, as a result, you can keep the vines and use the land for something else. That is a practice banned today in most countries.

Why is that?