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#1
12-06-2009, 11:56 PM
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DC group work = Canon Version 1.5
Since the DC group canon "debate" seems to be bubbling up again, I have say the following.
If the DC Group ever decides to post their work and if this is still an active forum at the time I am unilaterally declaring their work to be Canon version 1.5 . This will be the law of the land on MY forum. Given their volume of research, the fact that they have worked longer and harder than anyone else (including the original GDW staff, but probably excluding Paul) and they have been given an approving nod by one of the games creators, I personally feel this is fair. It will also end this argument once an for all. I have literally agonized over this decision because as most of you know I am a pretty light handed admin and imposing my will on others is not something I am comfortable with. However for the overall greater good of the T2k world I feel this has to be done. Of course anyone can chose to ignore any or all portions of the New 1.5 canon version or to consider it to be as radical of a departure from the V 1.0 canon as version 3.0 is. I considered putting this up to a vote but did not want the hassle nor ambiguity of an internet poll as any such poll is susceptible to fraud. However if someone considers this to be an egregious abuse of my admin powers you are free to seek another person to host the forum. If someone else wishes to host the site, a poll must be created on moving the whole site (lock, stock and barrel) to a new location. Such a poll must be posted within the next 90 days or within 45 days of the DC groups posting of their material, it must be anonymous, it must last at least 45 days, and it will be determined by a simple majority. I don't feel the need to worry about fraud on this one because if someone wants to commit fraud to remove me as admin then I really don't want to be here. If such a vote goes against my continued operation of the site, I will do all the work necessary to move the site including donating my copy of the software to the cause. Thank you for your attention on this. -kato13 
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#3
12-07-2009, 12:51 AM
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#5
12-07-2009, 02:40 AM
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Its your forum Kato so of course you have every right to make such a pronouncement. What if you set up a sub forum for the DC Working Group's works? In the same way that the Traveller 2300 forum has a sub forum called Spake's Non-Cannon 2300 Setting? That way anyone who has any major issues with the DC Working Group's work can just not visit that sub forum. No mess, no fuss, and no excuse in the future for any bad blood. For that matter perhaps we could have a Twilight 2013 sub forum as well?
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__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#6
12-07-2009, 03:03 AM
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If, after the DC group provides their material, there is a groundswell of support for such a partitioning I will consider it, but from my read of things there probably will not be. Last edited by kato13; 12-07-2009 at 03:09 AM.
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#7
12-07-2009, 10:42 AM
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I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.
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#8
12-07-2009, 11:25 AM
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For my part, I hope you remain our admin. If you need any help (although I'm a few thousand kilometers away and might not have the proper knowledge) just ask. To be honest, you don't give easily to anger and show some real patience. If it had been my forum, I would have shot it done and that would have been a terrible mistake.
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#9
12-07-2009, 12:24 PM
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As a newcomer to this site I have to say that I found the DC Group's posts fascinating reading and I would hate to see them discontinue posting.
Looking at the archived posts I can see that Kato has done an incredible amount of work and I am very appreciative of it. (I still haven't finished looking through the archived posts, and I keep finding gems in them  ) Kato, IMO this is your board, you do the hard work and we are your guests; all I can do is thank you for all your hard work.Having the DC Group material as timeline V1.5 seems an excellent idea.
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#10
12-07-2009, 01:12 PM
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I think everyone here should take a note from what happened to the old 2300AD Yahoo groups. Certain people there were such sticklers to canon that the atmosphere became very vile. This led to the formation of a distinct NonCanon group but the damage was done and participation decreased dramatically. Even when the much anticipated 2320 finally came out activity stayed low. (Albeit the publisher of 2320 totally crapped it all to hell.)
Don't let that happen here. Like any RPG its up to the Players and GMs to determine what they are going to use or discard. Canon be damned. Kato is doing a great job, the forum has constant activity and is a really civil place to post and discuss. If Kato wants to declare something canon, as it pertains to these boards, than so be it. He and the DC Group can't beam it into your brains at night and they can't lord over your own games. So you are still free to pick and choose. I say Good Job Kato, I'll still be here lurking around. Benjamin
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#11
12-07-2009, 04:39 PM
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Hello All;
I seldom post and enjoy all of the varied opinions that have been posted here. However, we must give kudos to Kato for keeping this group together and thriving. Without his effort, we would be blundering about the web like a bunch of lovesick cattle. "Canon" or Non canon" do not have a place here, as both notions are acceptable to me. I enjoy the material too much to let another's opinion cloud my interpretation of the T2K world. Kato, please keep up the good work and I hope that you will continue your tenure as admin.
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#12
12-07-2009, 05:04 PM
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#13
12-07-2009, 06:22 PM
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http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=10
What he said... From my perspective, I've no problem with anything anyone does as long as they don't (or others on their behalf) demand it be taken as canon if it's not been authorised by the original producers of the game. The vast amount of work produced by Moe, Webstral, and the DC group (amongst others) falls squarely into this category. It's not canon, but it makes some damn fine reading and has some very good ideas that can be translated into almost anyone's game world. As far as a drop in post rates, visitors, etc, this happens from time to time. Maybe something was happening in the world during that period which meant those who may normally have looked in were busy doing something else with their time (maybe it was just that the lawns needed mowing - who knows?) A lack of visitors and posts should not be taken personally although I certainly understand the feeling. It's hard not to feel negative when there's no obvious explaination. Kato, you've built a great little corner of the net here in a relatively short period of time. We might have the odd "spirited" debate now and then, but without debate all we're doing is patting each other on the back and not growing. Sure, like any family we've had a few occasional blow ups, but it's rather doubtful there's ever been any true bad blood - the majority of the time it's likely to be simple misunderstanding (damn hard to convey emotion and other subtlties by text alone).
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#14
12-08-2009, 02:00 PM
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I stayed out of the whole "what is canon" discussion, partially by choice, partially because I've got other things going on.
I did not know that it caused the DC group to stop posting here, nor did I know of all the hard feelings going on. To be frank, I have discussed the DC group with the mod in the past. I think I may be in Rae's and stainlessteelcynic's boat. However, If the owner/moderator wants to call the DC groups work canon, then so be it. The DC group does good work and they are gracious enough to share it. We are free to use it as we like in our own campaigns. I've modded the T2k canon (orbats, timeline, game mechanics) enough in my own games. just my opinions, and you know what they say about 'em. -bdd (winner of the St. Ignatius Class of 1989 "Most Laid Back" award)
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#15
12-08-2009, 04:55 PM
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Kato totally has my support on this. Considering the DC working group as T2K 1.5 is a wonderful thing. It's what i've considered it for a very, very long time. Looks like this forum will get to be a major part of my day agian!
 if they want to use the logo i worked on i'm more than happy to let them use it, since i've used their work as inspiration for my own T2k campaign... 
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#16
12-09-2009, 05:40 AM
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My website is filled with over 400 characters and vehicles, so I can appreciate the amount of research and creative work they have done. However, I write because I enjoy it (I use less than 1/10 of it myself) and post it because I think others can find it useful. I know many people won't use the material and a few will soundly criticize it. This does not mean I stop creating characters and vehicles or stop posting them. Most of my vehicles are historical WWII designs. It would make me uncomfortable if some GURPS forum or mailing list declared those design to be canon. While I've spent a lot of time and work on those designs, I'm not going to think that someone can't do a better job or better research. I'd want the designs to be used because the people want to use them, not because there told they had to use then. It's one thing if this forum was dedicated to an individual T2K campaign. But were I in the DC Group, I would feel uncomfortable with you decision.
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#17
12-09-2009, 06:59 AM
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Just my 0.02c worth and a somewhat belated attempt to pour oil on troubled waters.
Copeab I completely understand your point of view because I am quite sympathetic towards it. I have already expressed the view that material can only be canon if it is declared so by the owners of the intellectual property rights, however... I have come to see Kato's actions now more as a triage type operation - I think it's something he felt needed to be done urgently to prevent any real animosity taking root on the forum. Despite what has happened here in the past, this forum hasn't really seen a full-on flamewar or the kind of juvenile one-upmanship that dominates some other forums. Many of us have experienced it and I think Kato was reacting to the situation before something like that could happen here. Personally, that's exactly the type of action I want to see from an admin and while I don't agree with his decision, I can see why he took it. Fortunately for all of us, he has been gracious enough to let us express any disagreements without slamming down the 'ban-hammer' but I believe you have raised a valid point. Perhaps the members of the DC Working Group themselves should have some input into the future of their material here? There is obviously an interest, even some demand, for their work. I think some of the suggestions put forward such as giving them a sub-forum to post their work are good ideas.
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#18
12-09-2009, 10:56 PM
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I love this forum and I have respect and affection for its posters. It pained me to watch "The Troubles" develop here during 2009 and it pained me even more to see Kato and the DC Working Group withdraw from posting here. I support efforts to bring them back. I enjoy reading work produced by posters here and the DC Working Group in particular produces excellent work. I want to read more of it and I have used and hopefully will use some of their work in my own campaigns. But it is not canon. From what I have read the results of their revisions would be that the US would have far, far greater military might at the end of the Twilight War (especially the US Navy) than what canon suggests. That means that to me it doesn't have the same "feeling" as canon T2K and the future in the timeline would be radically different to canon. Basically I think that if you went with the DC Working Group's take on things in its entirety the US would be a super power again within a decade or two. If I was currently serving in the US military or had not so long ago ended a US military career and I was writing T2K revisionist material I would probably go down a similar route to the DC Working Group. For them it must be nigh on unthinkable that the US would ever fall as low as is depicted in T2K canon. I sympathise with their view and I think I understand where they are coming from. But to put my point in a nutshell, the DC Working Group's revisions make the title of "The Last Submarine" trilogy of modules a joke. Although Kato has decided against it I still think the DC Working Group's work, and discussions about it specifically, should be placed in its own sub-forum. That way if anyone has a serious problem with the work they can simply not visit that sub forum. If they do visit that sub forum and continually criticise the work they should be suspended or banned. Regular visitors may have noticed that I have made (I think) only one post since Kato's announcement. That is because I have been thinking about the decision and the ramifications it will have on this forum. If for the purposes of discussions on this forum we are required to regard the DC Working Group's work as canon I am afraid I will no longer feel comfortable posting here and my input will be minimal. This is not an ultimatum. I respect Kato's judgement and if his decision proves to be what is best for the forum then who am I to stand in its way. Increased input from the whole far outweighs reduced input from me. With the greatest of respect, Targan.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#19
12-09-2009, 11:58 PM
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I think there's room, even in "canon", for flexibility. I'm not feeling myself obliged to support 100% of the DC Group's material any more than I feel myself or they feel themselves obliged to support 100% of the GDW material in print. As many of our Australian brethren have pointed out, in sentiment if not in words, ultra-orthodoxy becomes stifling. I don't think anyone here is interested in establishing a Roman Catholic Church of or a Soviet Communist Party of Twilight: 2000. By the same token, I believe Kato wants to rise above the sort of knee-jerk reaction against work like the DC Group's work ("That's not what the Bible says! Out with you, Martin Luther!") that was demonstrated in extremis a little while ago. What began as a discussion about what was possble, practicable, likely devolved into an argument over possession: in other words, who has the right to make claims about the shape of the Twilight: 2000 universe. Kato, who is understandably more sympathetic to contributors who invest massive quantities of time and effort into comprehensive products than those whose mannerisms, albeit probably not their intent, approach those of hecklers, has made a decision which I believe is meant to put off the near-heckling. Disagree with the DC Group as you see fit, gentlemen. I doubt the DC Group or our administrator are going to take particular umbrage so long as we can either come to some agreement or agree to disagree. Webstral
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#20
12-10-2009, 06:37 AM
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I have refrained from comment until now because I felt that it was prudent and well advised to do so. My thoughts as a member of the DC Working Group are this: (be advised these comments are my own and do not represent the group as a whole).
As for canon or not, I don't care. You heard me, I don't. At the end of the day, this is a labor of love for all involved. I understand what Kato's trying to do, and lemme say that I am honored, and so is FF and Chico. But, and here's the but, at least as far as I am concerned. And Targan knows this because we discussed it in a PM, my issues (I won't speak for Chico or FF), were as Kato put it, with a single poster. I think some of my posts made that clear at the time. Targan, I'd ask you to reconsider leaving. This matter does need to be resolved, and I would ask that cooler heads prevail (Yeah, I know, coming from me). Do I have the solution? I think a sub-forum might be an idea, but and here's the but, it would cause a split in the board, and frankly, that would be a bad thing. Different takes on a game are a good thing. The differing perspectives can offer some measure of food for thought. As I and the other members of the DC Working Group have said and will continue to maintain...don't like it, don't use it. Our main focus as a group is mainly to fill what we see as "holes" in canon with materials now available. At least, it was our emphasis when we began. I still think it is. As for new material...here's the rub. Chico's working his ass off trying to get everything ready for our Third World War game to game out 1996-1997, and that's going to define how we write the vehicle guides as those will be our combat histories. Will that mean some divisions surviving when in canon, they did not, and vice versa? Maybe, but I have a funny feeling on the whole, it's going to go ala canon. Heck, I am going to be the Soviet commander...wanna guess how much I am going to get hammered?  So, what can you guys out there do? Be patient, and instead of screaming at each other the canon "how many angels can be made to dance on the head of a pin" argument, why not take a page from Traveller and use the acronym "IMT2KU", or "In My Twilight 2000 Universe", they came up with so they don't kill each other...and they somehow still manage to reenact the Rebellion daily....... 
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Author of "Distant Winds of a Forgotten World" available now as part of the Cannon Publishing Military Sci-Fi / Fantasy Anthology: Spring 2019 (Cannon Publishing Military Anthology Book 1) "Red Star, Burning Streets" by Cavalier Books, 2020 https://epochxp.tumblr.com/ - EpochXperience - Contributing Blogger since October 2020. (A Division of SJR Consulting).
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#21
12-10-2009, 10:15 AM
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__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#22
12-09-2009, 07:16 AM
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Brandon sent you a PM.
I just want to add in defense of my actions that there has been a sharp tick up in action by registered users since I made my pronouncement. Of course it is far to little data to make any real solid judgment, but it does make me feel better. I will admit frustration drove some of my timing, but the approaching holiday will mean a revisit by many dormant users (due to more available free time) and I felt getting things jumping again before they return might get us back to where we were rather than convince them that this forum is not a place they want to be.
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#23
12-09-2009, 06:14 PM
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Kato, as everybody has said, you're doing an excellent job as administrator.
Calling the DC group's work 1.5 is great, it does need a name. As far as the dropage in posts, sometimes we don't all have something to say. I try not to post too much, unless I can usefully contribute, and there's so many people here smarter, more educated and more experienced than me, that htere's just not much to say. And MERRY CHRISTMAS!
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Just because I'm on the side of angels doesn't mean I am one.
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