OT - Bible Verses on Gunsights

[Cdnwolf]

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions, New Zealand said Thursday.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Australia also said Thursday its military used the sights and was now assessing what to do.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

"The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate."

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint targets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Dunne said New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind.

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment.

"Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters.

Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued.

[copeab]

As someone on another forum asked. does this mean he now has a Holy M4 +1?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by copeab

As someone on another forum asked. does this mean he now has a Holy M4 +1?

Don't forget the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate

Though I'm an atheist, I must say, with all "due" respect to the higher-ups, that this is a stupid policy. You go to combat, you have so little to hold on to as it is, and strangely enough, the idea that this is stupid is probably the one thing that me and my stepmonster have ever agreed on.

But I like even better some "bibilical"...uhh...improvisations. I was reading a Gun Digest special about Barrett Firearms. They got an M-107 in for refurbishment, and scratched into the inside of the telescopic sight cover was a priceless statement: "O God, forgive me for what I must do, but this asshole must die." The magazine also had a picture -- it's surprising the author had enough room to scratch all that inside the lens cover.

[Targan]

I'm amazed. Bad enough to have religious icons and/or texts in Courts and places of government (which I vehemently oppose) but to put references to a religious text on a gunsight? Ridiculous. Religion is a private matter. I have no problem with people practising their faith in private settings but (and forgive me if this sentiment offends anyone) proselytization sucks.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'm amazed. Bad enough to have religious icons and/or texts in Courts and places of government (which I vehemently oppose) but to put references to a religious text on a gunsight? Ridiculous. Religion is a private matter. I have no problem with people practising their faith in private settings but (and forgive me if this sentiment offends anyone) proselytization sucks.

It may be because I'm an atheist that such a thing doesn't strike me as sacrilegious. Sacrilege is putting ice cubes into root beer!

In Desert Storm, my M-16 had a piece of duct tape on the right side of the stock with the name of a college girlfriend. Had sort of a double meaning...

As far as proselytizing, I agree with George Carlin: "Keep thine own religion to thyself." So I don't have a problem with troops putting such phrases on their own equipment, but keep it out of the government, and don't tell me my non-religious beliefs are wrong. (I actually had a first sergeant once who gave me pushups every time I saw him because I was an atheist. The Chaplain saw him do that once and read him the riot act, and I never had that problem again.)

[Legbreaker]

As yet another Atheist, I agree that there is no place for institutionalised religion and therefore issue items should NOT come premarked.

What an individual thinks, feels and does is up to them but to essentially force anyone into carrying another persons beliefs...? That's just not on.

[headquarters]

its war.people are being killed .I should think the extra numbers and letters on the ACOG was less of a moral conundrum than the actual taking of human life.

But in the face of the inhumanity of humanity its regularily the escape of the mind to discuss the way people are being killed rather than resist the thoughts that allow acceptance of killing .

But when that is said - I have a few ranty remarks :

The New Zealand dept of defense is saying that they are removing the bible verses but keeping the ACOGs as they are the best there is .

Are they really ?

better than Aimpoint Comp4 ? better than Elcan Spectre 1-4X35 mm red dot ( yeah -it is a fully variable sight from zero magnification to 4x by the flick of a switch-pretty awesome imho ) .No "sweetspot" ,no eye relief issues ,but still with a very useful magnification feature .

(admittedly - I do not own one .Maybe if preices are lowered and some restrictions lifted...)

I know the ACOG uses a tritium bladiblah so that no battery is needed to show the reticle ( where as the Aimpoint 4 only has a mere 6 year lifespan if you should happen to leave it in the gunsafe on "on" -thats one battery people)

The tritium in the ACOG will wear out .For the aimpoint -batteries will be produced in all Merc2000 settings ,but maybe not in most T2K settings..You could maybe recharge some AA batteries with some GMs...

I am not an atheist .I just do not believe in organized religion .

I do own a bunch of other redpoints including the Aimpoint Comp4 - that is great piece of kit right there .

[kato13]

That fact that this has been out there unnoticed for 6 years (in an age of instant world wide communication) means this really is not a huge deal.

I am a lifetime (kicked out of the cub scouts for it) atheist but this does not bother me at all. If I was in combat and I felt these scopes would increase my safety or killing power I would not care if my scope had bible quotes, fuzzy bunnies, Santa Clause or even a naked man on it. Combat is about efficiency in protecting your own and inflicting death on the enemy not about being PC.

In truth it is the DoD's fault for not putting a requirement in the specs. The US army requirement specs for a new "cake, brownie" was over 44 pages long, so it is not like they don't over think these things.

I know someone will say this will enrage radical Muslims, but seriously what doesn't enrage them. OBL biggest complaint before 9/11 was US troops in the Muslim holy land (Saudia Arabia). Guess what they are out now and you know what he is more enraged and just finds new things to complain about. I actually think bending over backwards not to offend encourages Islamasists.

The company has voluntarily agreed to remove these from future production and to provide free modifications to remove the references from existing stocks, so again not an issue.

Still a little disappointed they didn't have Ezekiel 25:17.