Air Force Personnel

[kato13]

Webstral 11-24-2003, 03:47 PM Has anyone had Air Force or Navy personnel become involved in their campaign (as PCs)? Though I've been working on my southern AZ project for more than a year now, I haven't come up with a solution for integrating the Air Force personnel from Davis-Monthan AFB into the Army force structure at Fort Huachuca.


One option is to keep the Air Force people separate. This obviates integration. However, this perpetuates two separate structures and two ways of doing business. The Army way and the Air Force way are not at all the same way. Even given that Army Military Intelligence will probably be the most similar to the Air Force in mentality (aside from Army Aviation, of course), there still is an Army way and an Air Force way. Except for the SPs, the Air Force people I met thought I was a mean, tough-talking junior officer. Army combat engineers would have told me I'd gone soft. So while keeping the two forces separate shelves some issues, it perpetuates others.


Another option is to integrate them while maintaining the unique NCO rank structures. In some ways, I like this option the best. This is, after all, how it's done when the two services work together in the real world. However, by mid-1998 the USAF in southern Arizona is pretty much defunct as an Air Force. The aircraft have been deployed. Spares and fuel have been sent overseas. Once the 2nd Mexican-American War begins, the remaining air assets will go to California or Texas, where the Mexican main efforts are being made and where the assets of real value to the US are. Davis-Monthan AFB won't be completely deserted, but the assets that make it an air force will have gone, leaving the Security Police and a few hundred miscellaneous support types who weren't deemed necessary to the operation of the aircraft overseas or in California/Texas. In other words, what's the point of not absorbing the Air Force personnel into the Army structure outright?


Has anyone else dealt with this in their campaigns?


Webstral

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Matt Wiser 11-25-2003, 03:06 AM My SEAL has been mixed up with some Army personnel, but they listen to him because he's a LCDR (O-4) and the next highest ranking Army officer is a Captain. Three other SEALs with him, and the SEALs' Master Chief is the highest-ranking NCO. The LCDR does listen to the Army NCOs, though. and the only rivalry is friendly. SEAL sniper and a Army sniper have a running competion going, for example. The female SEAL (a LT) and an Army female Captain get along fine, and they play good cop/bad cop in interrogating prisoners. The Army Captain (ex-MH-60 helo pilot)was a POW for a while, and likes the bad cop role: revenge, you might say....

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Rusty 11-25-2003, 06:02 AM since when did seals take women in their ranks?

I thought they were banned on a reason as great as menstruation in shark infested waters

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Matt Wiser 11-25-2003, 03:24 PM Remember, in the T2K universe, the combat exclusion laws were tossed in the early '90s. Although the reason to keep women out of SEALs you mentioned is a logical one. She was originally part of a pilot program to eval women in SEALs, but once WW III got going for real, she and the others in the program stayed in.

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TiggerCCW UK 11-25-2003, 05:06 PM I had an air force pilot ijn my last campaign. He had been an Eagle driver who was shot down and absorbed by the 5th in their last push. It was kind of hard integrating him into the party, but he did get to fly a restored P47 to bomb a vital bridge that the the russians were using. Its just unfortunate that he made a complete arse of rolling the dice for his bombing run......

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TR 11-26-2003, 08:57 PM HEH...


One of my friends PC's was a Air Force jockey, inspired by the Top Gun movie and the TV show Stingray (there's one for the 80's fans) by the name of Johnny Stingray... think he was a Captain in rank.


I think the way to approach the prickly question of what to do (and how to handle) the Air Force is a fair one. I drew up a lot of info on them in the past to account for their units domesitcally and even abroad.


I think the thing to remember with the Air Force is where their at. In some areas they would have to be fighitng with the Army (etc) by sheer necessity (can you say California or Texas)... in other places you have a strong Air Force presence but Civgov and or Milgov aren't there and could care less...


I think you might see the Air Force's Support Units, Security Groups, National Guard and Air Reserve Units domestically forming their own chain of command. I don't think the Air Force brass would be too keen on being absorbed into the Army yet again....


Does any recall if GDW ever decided on the composition of the remaining Joint Chiefs? It might make things interesting to see the composition at this might influence the ulitimate decision on the Air Force question.


Unfortunatly when you add in the Marine Corps, Navy and Coast Guard you find their all doing things differently than the other in some ways and as such I don't feel the differences between Army and Air Force would be that extreme.


I think in the case of Arizona you might see relations being forged between Milgov in Colorado and units there in Arizona. Colorado basically ends up the crossroads for a lot of states, staging up troops/supplies for transit to the fighting in California or Texas for example. Seeing how the Air Force Academy is in Colorado in such a scenario I doubt you would see the Air Force absorbed, that would really tick off the Air Force brass in state.



Until Later



TR

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Matt Wiser 11-27-2003, 03:40 AM I don't recall GDW ever mentioning the JCS having changed their composition. Everything they put out indicated that the JCS had all survived the nuclear exchange and by Mid '98 they were the de facto U.S. Government before the split. CJCS was GEN Johnathan Cummings USA. No info on who was Vice-CJCS, or the CNO, AF and Army Chiefs of Staff, or the Marine Commandant.

Coast Guard in wartime becomes part of the Navy. The US Army Vehicle Guide stated that the AF Academy Cadet Brigade was technically still part of the USAF.

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Webstral 11-28-2003, 02:23 AM On the national level, it's hard to say how the debate would go regarding the absorption of the Air Force by the Army. On the side of logic, it's senseless to have two services doing exactly the same thing. I know some of the gentlemen posting to this board prefer a vision of T2k in which several dozen (if not several hundred) modern aircraft are being operated by the United States military. I prefer a vision in which aircraft have virtually disappeared and in which the Air Force simply lacks the tools to do its distinct job. That being the case, it would be more efficient to bring the Air Force into the Army, do away with the redundant command structure, and teach the Air Force the Army way of business in the year 2000.


As we all know, however, logic does not always dictate how decisions are made. The Joint Chiefs may very well not want to eliminate the Air Force seat at the table because, well, generals don't like doing that sort of thing to each other. Also, militaries are hide-bound traditionalists, as we all know. The Joint Chiefs won't like the idea of giving up the Air Force just because there has always been an Air Force during their service lives. This may well outweigh all practical arguments.


On a case-by-case basis, I would imagine that there would be significant variation around the country. I'm leaning towards incorportaing the Air Force personnel of Davis-Monthan AFB into the Fort Huachuca command due largely to the history of southern Arizona in 1998 (as I envision it).


At the start of the Mexican invasion, Fort Huachuca and the rest of southern Arizona are still wrestling with organziational questions. The initial surge of refugees happened in November and December 1997, and the various federal and state agencies in southern Arizona have managed to deal with it. Throughout early 1998, the various federal, state, and local forces in southern Arizona improve their coordination and communication, though this process is hardly a smooth and trouble-free one. The first day of the 2nd Mexican-American War finds southern Arizona with a number of bodies of uniformed service members who are basically allied and under the same command (that of the CG of Fort Huachuca) but whose command-and-control, training, and disposition hardly represent the kind of harmony conventional war requires.


The 111th MI Brigade holds its portion of the border for a couple of reasons. Perhaps most important is the fact that Arizona is a secondary target for the Mexicans. 2o Ejercito is after California, and so only two brigades are assigned to pin down the American forces in the area and, if possible, capture Tucson and Phoenix. The 111th has been fighting local armed bands for several months now, and their ability as light infantry has improved dramatically. Also, the MI people took the precaution of fortifying the main border crossings at Nogales and Douglas using press-gang labor, engineer supervision, and rammed earth construction technqiues. The two Mexican brigades go in under the assumption that the Americans will fold. Though the 111th takes heavy casualties, the border positions hold.


Further west, 2o Ejercito attacks Yuma to knock out Yuma Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) and secure the Colorado River crossings there. Though the Marines fight hard, the Mexicans have devoted the kind of numbers to the fight required to decide things in their favor. Some Marines escape to the desert.


CIINC 6th US Army orders Huachuca to send the 111th west to retake Yuma. Since the Mexicans have moved most of the units originally committed against Yuma into California by the time the 111th Brigade arrives, the MI troops are able to recapture the city. However, the Mexicans quickly renew their attack in the Huachuca-Tucson area. They also move forces to deal with the Americans at Yuma.


In the Huachuca area, the Americans have dug in with MPs, local militia, local police (like the Tucson Police Department), and the personnel from DMAFB. The Mexicans try crossing at different points along the border. One brigade crosses at a minor road west of Douglas and manages to send the much-reduced American response force reeling. A second brigade crosses at Lukeville, rolls northeast, and attacks Tucson from the west. They hit the city almost before anyone can respond, and the Air Force and TPD personnel take significant casualties.


At Yuma, the 111th initially attempts to hold the river crossing. However, the Mexicans bring a fresh brigade up from the south. It quickly becomes obvious that the 111th is outmatched. At the same time, the cantonment at Huachuca is under severe threat. The 111th pulls out and withdraws east without orders from CINC 6th US Army. CINC 6th US Army is infuriated, but the Huachuca CG tells him that it simply isn't possible for the 111th to continue to hold at Yuma with the enemy in their rear.


In the fight that follows at Tucson and later at the gates of Fort Huachuca, the 111th tips the balance in favor of the Americans. The Mexicans fall back across the border. They retain control of Yuma.


The Huachuca CG decides that having all these organzations doing much the same job is senseless. He absorbs the Air Force personnel outright, then federalizes all the local police and sheriff's department personnel. Though there is some resistance in the towns and cities of southeast Arizona, they are all too aware of the service being rendered by the Army. The Air Force people have taken big-time losses. I'm thinking now that the Huachuca CG gets their buy-in by bringing them into the Army at their enlisted or officer grade. He tells them that when it is feasible for them to become Air Force personnel again, they can put their Air Force stripes back on.


Huachuca doesn't care too much about the Joint Chiefs' reaction to all this in the long run. During the build-up for the 1999 counteroffensive in Texas, the Joint Chiefs order Huachuca to provide two reinforced rifle battalions to 5th US Army, plus substantial quantities of ammunition, fuel, spares, and support weapons. The Huachuca CG refuses and is effectively excommincated from MilGov.


By this time, Luke AFB (Phoenix) has ceased to exist. Massive rioting caused the state government to flee to Flagstaff. Thousands of armed hooligans descended on Luke AFB and wiped out the last remnant of civil/military authority in the greater Phoenix area by August 1998.


This is an isolated case, however, and does not reflect on the conditions of the Air Force in general.


Webstral

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Matt Wiser 11-28-2003, 08:31 PM Webstral, your solution in S. AZ is similar to what the Army had to do on Bataan in early '42, when a provisional Air Corps regiment was formed out of planeless squadrons. They would have had to return to their Air Force roles if new aircraft had made it into the Philippines (they didn't). Although more than a few pilots escaped the infantry by flying the few P-40s they had or by being evac'd to either Mindanao and flying some there, or getting all the way to Australia. The best mechanics, other ground personnel, etc, ran the three airfields on Bataan, the rest served in the provisional regiment. They got battered on the line, and surrendered with the rest of Bataan on 9 Apr 42.

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jester770 12-06-2003, 12:17 AM In many of my games and as a player I have used the theory that navy personel and airforce personel as well as surplus ssurpport personel are hammered into companies of that service. Or used as replacements for combat losses on the front lines.


I have used the idea that so many beached sailors would be formed and eventualy sent to fill the holes in the lines. Figure after a few weeks training in the basics of infantry operations since they no longer have any real jobs to do.


Tyhe same would go for airforce personel as well as other services air personel.


In the past I have used an Air Force Helecopter crew cheif who was transfered to a Composite Air Force Infantry Brigage. He was made a weapons crewman on a M60 team since he had some experience with a door gun as a helo crew cheif.


I also one time had a navy electrician. Since his ship no longer could sail he was transfered to assiting to rewire limited telephone and telegraph lines. And to wire some areas for electricity <it was near a river where they had buiult a primative hydroelctric generator>


I also had a player from a game a while ago who had a CoastGuards man who had survived his ships sinking and was rescued by the PCs.


Or in my very first T2K game ever the GM had a navy character who was just on the docks at the wrong place at the wrong time and a unit needed men. So he was grabbed and ended up on the run with the other survivors from the 5ht.


So many many ideas.


Heck I even had a PC once who was a naval aviator. Their last mission was to be a one way misssion. The ships used the last of the avgas. The crews were to strike the target and then make land along with just enough fuel to do it. IF they were lucky enough.


My character was an ensign on a naval strike craft. He then ended up all along in a small rubber raft in the midddle of the North Sea.


Poof he ended up behind enemy lines with jsut a pistol, a survival knife, a few spare rounds, his flight suite, flight jacket, Long Underwear and BDUs under it, with just a flask of water and some energy bars.


Talk about a challenge for a character? Alas the game did not last long. but the concept was good.


Well those are some ideas.


As for the Colorado Springs, I think since the AF is the big dog on the block in that town and the infrastructure of the Air Force is already in place personel would be trained and recruited into it and tained according to AF doctrines. All subsiqunetly raised or absorbed units would then become AF units.


I think this would be the case throughout the country. Units being raised or absorbed would be renamed and trained and structured aalong the lines of the dominant unit of the region.


So the best bet, see what major unit or base was in the area. Then they would be the major force issuing comands, controlling transportation, communication, supply, and other assets.


Just my thougts,


jess

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Jason Weiser 12-06-2003, 07:09 PM I pretty much took your approach Matt, where I had the AF personell formed into composite companies and fed into Army line units under their own officers. Senior officers were basically given staff jobs comisurate with their expereince. That's how I explained how an AF major ended up with the 5th. He was part of the 1st Bde Civil Affairs shop. I suppose with the influx of AF officer types not having a thing to fly, a lot of them would have made good engineering types (they got that pounded into them when learning how to fly) or all sorts of staff work, or they'd learn how to be infantrymen.

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Matt Wiser 12-06-2003, 08:00 PM Jason, it would work if the Senior AF officer was outranked by the nearest Army officer; In Europe, the excess AF personnel probably perform local security and reconstruction tasks, not to mention keeping the remaining aircraft going, fuel permitting. Same thing in Korea. Where there's fuel, such as the Pacific NW, California, and the Persian Gulf region, the excess personnel got sent into AF Combat Security Police units. Bear in mind that the best of the ground personnel, such as mechanics, avionics techs, munitions specialists, etc. stay with the aircraft. A lot of Admin and other types are probably in the base defense/local security roles. Pilots and aircrews are still flying when they can. In the Gulf, that means you have more pilots/aircrew than planes. And it's not just combat missions, pilots get rusty if they've been too long out of the cockpit, so there's training missions over the Gulf and Saudi Airspace as well as combat.

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Jason Weiser 12-06-2003, 11:08 PM True Matt,

And it did help that the PC group was based around the remains of 1-61st Battalion Headquarters. So, the Battalion commander was in charge of this group, of course, this group was 5 or six of mostly former staff types, an AF major and a Polish Doctor that they captured along the way.

But I do see your point, but it does beg the question, in places with no gas, what does one logically do with senior air crew? The Philippines example is fine for most, but the senior types are basically going to be out of jobs?

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graebarde 12-07-2003, 11:21 PM I think it would not only be the senior personnel of the air force and other services, but ALL the branches. There are only so many staff slots that need filling. What I have done to aleviate this delima is to form MilGov (civil affairs) detachemets of surplus officers. It is their function to govern the civilian population in the rear area of operations. Each team is responsible for a village, while small towns and cities would have more teams working in the building block fashion of the military. The teams may be all of one service or mixed as the availability of officers dictates. Since most officers have higher eduaction, and teh service is a diverse organization, with many backgrounds it seemed logical there would be many of the necessary skills in this pool of personnel that would be utilized to 'recover' the area.


Just an idea..

grae


and YES I've had mixed service groups.

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Matt Wiser 12-11-2003, 02:59 AM Jason, was the AF officer the old FAC (Foreward Air Controller)? BTW these are always pilots, and when a pilot gets this job, he/she gets some infantry training JIC things get rough, as several AF personnel attached to 3rd ID found out during the Battle of Baghdad this April. Several times, Battalion HQs during the fight came under ground attack, and everyone had to pick up a weapon and fight off the bad guys, who had more zeal than military training, and body counts for the bad guys were very high. As an ex-Iraqi General told the LA Times, "just imagine a bunch of guys with AK-47s and pickup trucks against two battalions of Tanks and Bradleys."

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